Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mommy was an Orc 01-31-06, 11:42 AM	This is a list of potentially unbalancing spells in Spell Compendium that were legal core or limited spells, but perhaps should be made limited or restricted due to the level change and/or change in what the spell does. I'm not claiming I'm necessarily right about this, but I think all of these spells will show up as problems. --- Binding Winds - extremely effective against single BDMs - make reflex save or be unable to move as long as Druid concentrates - no limit. 2nd level Druid spell that used to be 5th. Example: Fire Giant without ranged weapon or immediate proximity to rocks has this cast on him by a 3rd level Druid with a 16 Wisdom - he fails the save 50% of the time and after that, the combat is essentially over. Cast Enlarge Person on your BDF with a Reach Weapon and have him go to town. Lion's Charge - now available to Masters of Many Forms with 5 levels of Druid. 3rd level Druid spell. I don't think anyone was claiming Pounce is an underpowered effect. In combo with Shock Trooper and a high number of attack form, can do upwards of 200 hp of damage in a round. Righteous Wrath of the Faithful - +3/3 Morale Hit/Damage and Extra Attack in a 30' burst. Why cast Divine Power when you can essentially give it to everyone in the party in one shot? 5th level spell that was less effective as a 7th level spell. Not claiming these are all of them, mainly looked at the list of spells that changed levels.
solbergb 01-31-06, 01:39 PM	Last Breath - reincarnate for 500gp and no level loss. Just gotta get to the victim in one round. "Revivify for druids" instead of "cheap raise dead with level loss" which is what it was before. Righteous Wrath in the new incarnation IS very powerful, but it is also restricted to melee atk/dmg only. I'm not 100% sure it is totally out of line for a level 5 spell - it seems about 2 levels more powerful than prayer. Maybe it should be level 6 - but we're not talking CD spikes+brambles here.
JamesMaissen 01-31-06, 08:15 PM	This is a list of potentially unbalancing spells in Spell Compendium that were legal core or limited spells, but perhaps should be made limited or restricted due to the level change and/or change in what the spell does. I'm not claiming I'm necessarily right about this, but I think all of these spells will show up as problems. <snip> Lion's Charge - now available to Masters of Many Forms with 5 levels of Druid. 3rd level Druid spell. I don't think anyone was claiming Pounce is an underpowered effect. In combo with Shock Trooper and a high number of attack form, can do upwards of 200 hp of damage in a round. Not claiming these are all of them, mainly looked at the list of spells that changed levels. I don't see the problem that you seem to. A Master of Many forms with 5 levels of Druid will be able to use the Wild feat giving him pounce for a wildshape more effectively (and more often) than this spell. Sure Pounce is sick, but it's available in many forms ;) -James
Mommy was an Orc 01-31-06, 08:54 PM	Where are you getting that feat from? ;) The problem currently for MoMF is that they don't have that feat to spare. The 2 for qualifying, Power Attack, Improved Bullrush, Shock Trooper, and the Pounce feat = 6 feats. That's 12th level as specifically a human...and ignoring the FAQ and MoMF interaction. Sure they can turn into some kind of jungle cat at 9th, but that isn't as useful as some of their other forms by that point. I don't see the problem that you seem to. A Master of Many forms with 5 levels of Druid will be able to use the Wild feat giving him pounce for a wildshape more effectively (and more often) than this spell. Sure Pounce is sick, but it's available in many forms ;) -James The problem at 9th level is that Divine Power doesn't actually give you an additional attack then. So it is actually more effective than Divine Power is at being Divine Power. And then it works on a group, not just you. It has its downsides, but I think it is a powerful 6th, weak 7th level spell. Righteous Wrath in the new incarnation IS very powerful, but it is also restricted to melee atk/dmg only. I'm not 100% sure it is totally out of line for a level 5 spell - it seems about 2 levels more powerful than prayer. Maybe it should be level 6 - but we're not talking CD spikes+brambles here.
copper_wyrmling 01-31-06, 09:53 PM	The problem at 9th level is that Divine Power doesn't actually give you an additional attack then. So it is actually more effective than Divine Power is at being Divine Power. And then it works on a group, not just you. It has its downsides, but I think it is a powerful 6th, weak 7th level spell. Righteous Wrath doesn't stack with Haste and Inspire Courage, and it rapidly becomes less powerful as a single-character buff than Divine Power - in terms of net contribution to the party it should be substantially better than Divine Power, it's a level higher. It's basically like a Mass version of Divine Favour (a L1 spell) plus a partial Haste - which doesn't seem too out of line for fifth level, especially since morale bonuses are fairly common. Even at L9, my cleric would have gotten +6 to hit and +4 to damage from Divine Power - saying that Righteous Wrath is better as a single-target buff than Divine Power is like saying that Haste is better as a single-target buff than DP. Apples and oranges - it's best to have them both :) My L12 cleric gets +7 to hit, +4 to damage and an extra attack from Divine Power, which stacks with Haste / Righteous Wrath. Haste and Boots of Speed are pretty common at her APL. I imagine that when there aren't any bards in the party, she'll regularly prepare and cast Righteous Wrath (she's a cleric of Joramy so it's very much in flavour) and take some of the buffing burden off the arcanists: when there's a bard, she'll let them do what they do best. Righteous Wrath certainly won't displace Divine Power on her spell list, however. I agree that Last Breath is likely to become Restricted. Until then, though, my UMD-sorcerer is going to have great fun with these scrolls of Last Breath she's found (Adventure access on a recent AR). No need to worry about dying for the next few weeks, you can come back with no level loss for the low, low price of 1200gp ;) I know some people who think that Unluck is too powerful as a third-level spell - I think mainly because they're dreading running a game with Chained Unluck flying around, where they have to roll every dice twice for all the NPCs. Any opinions on this? Anticipate Teleportation was another spell that seemed quite powerful at its original level (at least in my region, with teleporting demons all over the place) and got reduced in level with no reduction in effect. I personally think that the new version of Nature's Favour is way too powerful for a L2 spell, primarily because of the swift action casting time, high caster level cap and non-negligible duration. Ditto for Nature's Avatar (swift action casting time and decent duration = big boost in power), although that spell isn't really relevant to LG anymore.
Arvagor 01-31-06, 11:34 PM	I agree that Last Breath is likely to become Restricted. Until then, though, my UMD-sorcerer is going to have great fun with these scrolls of Last Breath she's found (Adventure access on a recent AR). No need to worry about dying for the next few weeks, you can come back with no level loss for the low, low price of 1200gp ;)Just remember, you get what you pay for... In about a 20 minutes (as of this writing), that 1200gp buys you a 17% chance that your character is gone forever, (since the Spell Compendium version will then be valid, and the SC version functions as reincarnate) :ghosted:
Madfox11 02-01-06, 07:07 AM	I agree that Last Breath is likely to become Restricted. Until then, though, my UMD-sorcerer is going to have great fun with these scrolls of Last Breath she's found (Adventure access on a recent AR). No need to worry about dying for the next few weeks, you can come back with no level loss for the low, low price of 1200gp ;) In practice it is actually higher then the 17% mentioned by Arvagor. A change in race is only rarely beneficial, and I have a distinct feeling most people would prefer by far to loose a level and 5500 gp then risk ending up with an unplayable character. Any opinions on this? Anticipate Teleportation was another spell that seemed quite powerful at its original level (at least in my region, with teleporting demons all over the place) and got reduced in level with no reduction in effect. Actually, the casting time and duration got increased as well. I think the designers wanted to reduce the effectiveness of dimensional doo and teleport as attack spells, instead reducing them to the defensive spells they originally planned for. It wouldn't surprise me if too many DMs complained about the scrying/teleporting PCs at high levels ;)
paigeoliver 02-01-06, 08:15 AM	Hmmm, reincarnate. I have a halfling archer (fighter 4 / Barbarian 1). If she was reincarnated as a gnome, there would be no real problems. All her equipment would fit, she would swap 2 points of dex for 2 points of con. Human, dwarf, elf, and half orc, well I might as well start over with a new character. She only owns one thing that would be usuable by a medium sized race (ring of protection +1).
qstor 02-01-06, 09:44 AM	As some of the Triads have pointed out. The spells that are Core now in the LGCS are the only ones being allowed in the campaign as Core in the next LGCS. I'm sure the Triads and the Circle will examine the other spells in the Spell Compendium not from previously approved campaign sources and see if they want them to be added to the campaign as limited or ban them. Mike
Nightmare Beast 02-02-06, 02:20 PM	"Righteous Wrath doesn't stack with Haste and Inspire Courage, and it rapidly becomes less powerful as a single-character buff than Divine Power - in terms of net contribution to the party it should be substantially better than Divine Power, it's a level higher." Can you explain why it wouldn't stack with haste? Are they not different types of effects? One is divine, and the other increases your movement (speed) as the haste spells says: "The transmuted creatures move and act more quickly than normal. This extra speed has several effects. When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding. The attack is made using the creature’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a weapon of speed, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can’t use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.)" I would like to know because if it's true it's very powerful for 5th level. I can't imagine Divine Power, Righteous Might and Righteous Wrath all on one person. WOW!!
Mommy was an Orc 02-02-06, 02:39 PM	Can you explain why it wouldn't stack with haste? Are they not different types of effects? One is divine, and the other increases your movement (speed) as the haste spells says: It specifically says it doesn't give an extra extra attack with Haste.
solbergb 02-02-06, 03:30 PM	I would like to know because if it's true it's very powerful for 5th level. I can't imagine Divine Power, Righteous Might and Righteous Wrath all on one person. WOW!! I can't either because if you cast Wrath first, the "real" party fighters will have mopped up the encounter while you're casting the other two buffs. heh. Even divine metamagic quicken would put you two rounds behind the hurting of the guys who just accepted the buff and started swinging. So mostly I wouldn't worry too much. Yes, it can also be bad on the rogue polymorphed into a giant octopus (+3 to hit and damage on 12 attacks, plus sneak attack on each attack if you give him a flank whohoo!) but in practice it doesn't happen all that often.
Gyro_LC 02-05-06, 01:32 PM	If I'm not mistaken, Righteous Wrath's target entry states that it only affects the caster's allies, so it doesn't affect the caster as well. The description blocks also support this.
Mommy was an Orc 02-05-06, 01:52 PM	If I'm not mistaken, Righteous Wrath's target entry states that it only affects the caster's allies, so it doesn't affect the caster as well. The description blocks also support this. Hmm, interesting point. Doesn't include the typical you.
ShinAkuma2 02-05-06, 10:01 PM	I might be wrong, but I think you count as your own ally.
Mommy was an Orc 02-05-06, 10:12 PM	I might be wrong, but I think you count as your own ally. It varies, but usually, the ability says you count as your own ally if you do so. Look at Inspire Courage/Competence as examples each way.