Potion bandoliers and Scroll Organizers - players creating new rules [Archive] - Wizards Community

Potion bandoliers and Scroll Organizers - players creating new rules [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Emirikol
06-29-06, 03:10 PM Are PC's able to create new item potion bandoliers and scroll organizers that aren't part of the core rules that allow them to supercede core rules that note that it's a move action to "retrieve a stowed item" from a backpack or pouch.

Exceptions are wands, spell components from spell component pouches and some magic items right?

jh
Lomiat
06-29-06, 03:42 PM Are PC's able to create new item potion bandoliers and scroll organizers that aren't part of the core rules that allow them to supercede core rules that note that it's a move action to "retrieve a stowed item" from a backpack or pouch?

No.
Emirikol
06-29-06, 05:54 PM No.

That's what I thought. I was just wondering because every table I've played at or run from Idaho to Kansas has people drawing out items as a free action left and right and claiming that they have that kind of gear set-up.

Is it common practice in your areas or do they play by the rules?

jh
Lomiat
06-29-06, 06:30 PM One of my characters found the access and spent the gp to get a masterwork potion belt (free action to retrieve a potion). Hasn't used it yet, but someday...

There's the player's reward card, Swift Response, that lets you draw an item as a free action.

Quick Draw lets you draw a weapon as a free action. Not sure if it would let you pull an item.

That said, I think most players whom I've had to remind about the move action to draw something tried pulling it without the time expenditure have done so out of ignorance. If I saw someone repeatedly make the same "mistake," I'd call shenanigans.

I reminded one player that he couldn't draw a potion, move to the fallen companion, and pour the potion down the companion's throat all in the same turn. There was some cofusion to how few hps that character had (thought it might be -9), so it was a situation that mattered.

Most of the time, regarding this stuff, I think our players play by the rules. I suspect a number of individuals in my region of shenanigans, but not about drawing potions, etc.

In any such case, unless you're going to perform an audit or caution a player, you pretty much have 1 of 2 options: 1) ask, "Oh, I didn't know you could do that. Is that a favor on one of your ARs?" 2) if it really doesn't abuse the flow of play, ignore it; after all is said and done, it is a game.
JJeff
06-29-06, 09:14 PM What Lomiat said is correct. Ask for proof of AR Access (or ability gained) to the items (Bandolier, etc) if you feel it's not to disruptive at the point of the event.

It's important, because it matters if a player can be healed or not.
paigeoliver
06-30-06, 03:15 AM Also, move action to draw stored items is one of the single most frequently ignored rules in 3.5 D&D, for both players and GMs. I KNOW the rule and often forget about it, as both a player and a GM.

But no, people can't make up equipment that changes rules. They can buy lots of weird stuff as masterwork tools, but none of those allow pulling potions as a free action.
Madfox11
06-30-06, 04:19 AM Actually, I never see people forget that rule. I even have had players state that what they were looking for was in their backpack and hence required 1 full round action to retrief. What does generate discussion in these parts of the woods is whether potions, wands and scrolls are "weapons" and can be drawn as a free action as part of a move action. I usually don't object to treat wands as weapons, but scrolls and potions is a different thing. Still, this part of the rules is somewhat vague and it is up to the individual DMs.
Emirikol
06-30-06, 12:01 PM Well, wands are defined as 'weapons' and clarified in the PHB, however potions aren't weapons. Scrolls...well, that's undefined too. Wands must be considered to be 'sheathed' unless put in your backpack.

This rule matters so much, because there is nothing so touchy as PC DEATH and potion retrieval is a HUGE part of that whole issue.

Quick Draw and "as part of a move action/BAB+1" I think are probably the best ways to describe fast access and there actually was some note on this from the authors on a wizards.com article. I may actually stick that and some other ambiguuuuuuouuuus rules to my DM screen. I want my players to know ahead of time and not when emotions are running high and a PC is about to die..then if there's an unclear rule, THE DM GET'S BLAMED.

It's not an ethical situation for the Circle to put DM's in.

Official resolution from the CIRCLE would be best. It would make the single most DM-hated issue (PC death) resolved right then and there.

jh
Cardinal Teplin
06-30-06, 12:25 PM Hm.. Wands are defined as weapon-like items. There is no reason to suppose that scrolls and potions couldn't also be so defined.

Similarly, while it does indeed take a move action to retrieve a potion from a pouch or backpack, potions not stored in a pouch or a backpack rely on DM ruling to say how long they take to draw. The common confusion I've seen is when someone is ready and waiting to hand something to someone - a situation that is often seen as a free action, if the the handing off charcter is willing to use a move action setting it up.

Obviously, your players are used to playing on tables where such rules are not enforced, or where the DM will allow characters to treat potions as weapon-like items provided they are set up in a suitable fashion. The bandoliers etc. are an attempt to explain how they want to set up their potions, and don't, as far as I can tell, violate any particular rules, although their effectiveness is for the DM to judge.

If your interpretation of the rules differs from theirs, then yes it's a good idea to explain it to them. In advance is also a good idea, so that you're not changing their expectations of what they can do when a character death is on the line.

However, I would suggest you treat the matter more diplomatically than you have in your question above. Whether knowingly or not, you're coming across as rather confrontational, and that's likely to annoy some players irrespective of whether they agree with you.

H
Emirikol
07-01-06, 01:36 PM Hm.. Wands are defined as weapon-like items. There is no reason to suppose that scrolls and potions couldn't also be so defined.
Similarly, while it does indeed take a move action to retrieve a potion from a pouch or backpack, potions not stored in a pouch or a backpack rely on DM ruling to say how long they take to draw.
H

Yea, I think that's fair as long as the player actually has some concept of where he's drawing it from.

I am ruling the same from now on for things in the belt-pouch or "pocket" as is in some of the PHB clothing descriptions. The problem is that players are claiming to have 'potion bandoliers' which is not allowed because ethey would be considered a "special rules item." They don't exist without a special definition from a AR.

As for the backpack, there's no quick reach on that one :)

jh
Madfox11
07-03-06, 08:26 AM Official resolution from the CIRCLE would be best. It would make the single most DM-hated issue (PC death) resolved right then and there.

Than I have to dissapoint you. The Circle is not in a position to change D&D rules unless the structure of the campaign actually has an impact on the rule in question (e.g. summon planar ally, item creation). Your best bet is to ask the question to WotC customer service and hope they publish it in FAQ. Mind you, I have never seen a character die due not being able to draw a potion as a free action. Around here characters with wands of cure light wounds, scrolls or actual clerics are the ones that rush to fallen comrades.
solbergb
07-05-06, 02:30 PM Far more common where I come from is folks inventing equipment to allow an incharacter explanation for just HOW they draw a scroll as a "move action that draws an attack of opportunity" instead of taking far longer to page through 48 scrolls.

As an example, until she got a haversack at late level 8, my sorcerer carried a spellbook with pages torn out, and scrolls interleaved in the missing pages. She put the spellbook in a sack that hung at her waist (I called it a satchel, and once she had a noble outfit it looked nicer than a plain old sack, but the weight/cost/etc was a sack). She could draw a few common scrolls without pulling the book out of the sack, by touch (they were sticking out of the book at various angles) but if she used an unusual spell, I'd pull the whole book out (luckily I never got disarmed/sundered while doing that).

The mechanic though was the PHB one....move action that draws attack of opportunity, can't be combined with a "bab+1 move/free action" thing like you can do with a wand.

There are some odd pieces of equpiment out there from builder books or even AR's that change the basic dynamic, but they need to show you the relevant rules text if you are unfamiliar with them. I think the old Tome and Blood scroll organizer let you pull as a move action that didn't provoke, and I think there is something out there for potions that makes them "Weaponlike" but you can't just make it up.
solbergb
07-05-06, 02:36 PM Another thing...

Some of the various PHB clothing has stuff that could easily be used for potion/splash weapon storage.

In particular the artisan outfit (leather apron with lots of slots/pockets for tools), the adventurer outfit ("many pockets") and the monk outfit (conceal stuff in folds of it or some such wording).

It still wouldn't allow any faster access, but given that most adventurers wear an adventurer outfit, they have "enough pockets" for most small consumables. Scrolls are bigger and scrollcases more awkward/heavy, so I tend to give them more thought, unless my character uses a *lot* of splash weapons.

(my tk sorceress is going to get an artisan outfit at level 10 for storage of large quantities of holy water vials for ready-use hurling with violent thrust..defined as a 4lb leather apron/coverall that she wears over normal clothes with the "tool" slots sized for splash weapons. She'd like to do that with acid, but doesn't want to be melted if she fails a save versus shatter or a similar effect)
SgtHulka
07-06-06, 06:16 PM Far more common where I come from is folks inventing equipment to allow an incharacter explanation for just HOW they draw a scroll as a "move action that draws an attack of opportunity" instead of taking far longer to page through 48 scrolls.

Precisely. My dwarf wizard carries his scrolls in a "bandolier", having memorized the location of each one. But that's just flavor for explaining why it *only* takes a move action that draws an attack of opportunity to draw one. And he also carries a pack for his other items.

Heck, if you start allowing characters to draw things not in their backpack with free actions, we might as well get rid of the backpack altogether. It's already a useless item that takes up 2 lb. of valuable weight. There's no rule that states how much it can hold, nor that you have to have one. I'm sticking my potions in my hat and having straws attached to my mouth. I'm wearing my scrolls woven into my clothes. I'm tying my alchemist's fire to my arms with bits of twine. I'm sticking my pick in the back of my shirt, my pitons in my crotch, and tying my rope around my neck in a noose. Heck, my 10 strength rogue would love to have that two pounds back.

Those of us who purchase backpacks take that two pound penalty for the sake of sensible flavor. Those who don't can metagame two extra pounds of carrying capacity. It seems absolutely silly to me that any DM would further reward such a player for not carrying something in a pack by allowing them to draw items with free actions.
GenghisBob
07-07-06, 12:22 AM in other campaings you can buy Potion, Scroll and Magic User Bandoleer for Quick Drawing items.

I have seen certed quick draw potion bandoleers in LG, cant recall what Region / YEar they were from.

But they looked cool.
Samo
07-10-06, 08:11 AM Actually, I never see people forget that rule. I even have had players state that what they were looking for was in their backpack and hence required 1 full round action to retrief. What does generate discussion in these parts of the woods is whether potions, wands and scrolls are "weapons" and can be drawn as a free action as part of a move action. I usually don't object to treat wands as weapons, but scrolls and potions is a different thing. Still, this part of the rules is somewhat vague and it is up to the individual DMs.

This is just in a NON LIVING GREYHAWK game I run, but i allow my spell casters to draw their offensive scrolls as a free action, why should they be punished for not wanting to use a weapon?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Emirikol 06-29-06, 03:10 PM	Are PC's able to create new item potion bandoliers and scroll organizers that aren't part of the core rules that allow them to supercede core rules that note that it's a move action to "retrieve a stowed item" from a backpack or pouch. Exceptions are wands, spell components from spell component pouches and some magic items right? jh
Lomiat 06-29-06, 03:42 PM	Are PC's able to create new item potion bandoliers and scroll organizers that aren't part of the core rules that allow them to supercede core rules that note that it's a move action to "retrieve a stowed item" from a backpack or pouch? No.
Emirikol 06-29-06, 05:54 PM	No. That's what I thought. I was just wondering because every table I've played at or run from Idaho to Kansas has people drawing out items as a free action left and right and claiming that they have that kind of gear set-up. Is it common practice in your areas or do they play by the rules? jh
Lomiat 06-29-06, 06:30 PM	One of my characters found the access and spent the gp to get a masterwork potion belt (free action to retrieve a potion). Hasn't used it yet, but someday... There's the player's reward card, Swift Response, that lets you draw an item as a free action. Quick Draw lets you draw a weapon as a free action. Not sure if it would let you pull an item. That said, I think most players whom I've had to remind about the move action to draw something tried pulling it without the time expenditure have done so out of ignorance. If I saw someone repeatedly make the same "mistake," I'd call shenanigans. I reminded one player that he couldn't draw a potion, move to the fallen companion, and pour the potion down the companion's throat all in the same turn. There was some cofusion to how few hps that character had (thought it might be -9), so it was a situation that mattered. Most of the time, regarding this stuff, I think our players play by the rules. I suspect a number of individuals in my region of shenanigans, but not about drawing potions, etc. In any such case, unless you're going to perform an audit or caution a player, you pretty much have 1 of 2 options: 1) ask, "Oh, I didn't know you could do that. Is that a favor on one of your ARs?" 2) if it really doesn't abuse the flow of play, ignore it; after all is said and done, it is a game.
JJeff 06-29-06, 09:14 PM	What Lomiat said is correct. Ask for proof of AR Access (or ability gained) to the items (Bandolier, etc) if you feel it's not to disruptive at the point of the event. It's important, because it matters if a player can be healed or not.
paigeoliver 06-30-06, 03:15 AM	Also, move action to draw stored items is one of the single most frequently ignored rules in 3.5 D&D, for both players and GMs. I KNOW the rule and often forget about it, as both a player and a GM. But no, people can't make up equipment that changes rules. They can buy lots of weird stuff as masterwork tools, but none of those allow pulling potions as a free action.
Madfox11 06-30-06, 04:19 AM	Actually, I never see people forget that rule. I even have had players state that what they were looking for was in their backpack and hence required 1 full round action to retrief. What does generate discussion in these parts of the woods is whether potions, wands and scrolls are "weapons" and can be drawn as a free action as part of a move action. I usually don't object to treat wands as weapons, but scrolls and potions is a different thing. Still, this part of the rules is somewhat vague and it is up to the individual DMs.
Emirikol 06-30-06, 12:01 PM	Well, wands are defined as 'weapons' and clarified in the PHB, however potions aren't weapons. Scrolls...well, that's undefined too. Wands must be considered to be 'sheathed' unless put in your backpack. This rule matters so much, because there is nothing so touchy as PC DEATH and potion retrieval is a HUGE part of that whole issue. Quick Draw and "as part of a move action/BAB+1" I think are probably the best ways to describe fast access and there actually was some note on this from the authors on a wizards.com article. I may actually stick that and some other ambiguuuuuuouuuus rules to my DM screen. I want my players to know ahead of time and not when emotions are running high and a PC is about to die..then if there's an unclear rule, THE DM GET'S BLAMED. It's not an ethical situation for the Circle to put DM's in. Official resolution from the CIRCLE would be best. It would make the single most DM-hated issue (PC death) resolved right then and there. jh
Cardinal Teplin 06-30-06, 12:25 PM	Hm.. Wands are defined as weapon-like items. There is no reason to suppose that scrolls and potions couldn't also be so defined. Similarly, while it does indeed take a move action to retrieve a potion from a pouch or backpack, potions not stored in a pouch or a backpack rely on DM ruling to say how long they take to draw. The common confusion I've seen is when someone is ready and waiting to hand something to someone - a situation that is often seen as a free action, if the the handing off charcter is willing to use a move action setting it up. Obviously, your players are used to playing on tables where such rules are not enforced, or where the DM will allow characters to treat potions as weapon-like items provided they are set up in a suitable fashion. The bandoliers etc. are an attempt to explain how they want to set up their potions, and don't, as far as I can tell, violate any particular rules, although their effectiveness is for the DM to judge. If your interpretation of the rules differs from theirs, then yes it's a good idea to explain it to them. In advance is also a good idea, so that you're not changing their expectations of what they can do when a character death is on the line. However, I would suggest you treat the matter more diplomatically than you have in your question above. Whether knowingly or not, you're coming across as rather confrontational, and that's likely to annoy some players irrespective of whether they agree with you. H
Emirikol 07-01-06, 01:36 PM	Hm.. Wands are defined as weapon-like items. There is no reason to suppose that scrolls and potions couldn't also be so defined. Similarly, while it does indeed take a move action to retrieve a potion from a pouch or backpack, potions not stored in a pouch or a backpack rely on DM ruling to say how long they take to draw. H Yea, I think that's fair as long as the player actually has some concept of where he's drawing it from. I am ruling the same from now on for things in the belt-pouch or "pocket" as is in some of the PHB clothing descriptions. The problem is that players are claiming to have 'potion bandoliers' which is not allowed because ethey would be considered a "special rules item." They don't exist without a special definition from a AR. As for the backpack, there's no quick reach on that one :) jh
Madfox11 07-03-06, 08:26 AM	Official resolution from the CIRCLE would be best. It would make the single most DM-hated issue (PC death) resolved right then and there. Than I have to dissapoint you. The Circle is not in a position to change D&D rules unless the structure of the campaign actually has an impact on the rule in question (e.g. summon planar ally, item creation). Your best bet is to ask the question to WotC customer service and hope they publish it in FAQ. Mind you, I have never seen a character die due not being able to draw a potion as a free action. Around here characters with wands of cure light wounds, scrolls or actual clerics are the ones that rush to fallen comrades.
solbergb 07-05-06, 02:30 PM	Far more common where I come from is folks inventing equipment to allow an incharacter explanation for just HOW they draw a scroll as a "move action that draws an attack of opportunity" instead of taking far longer to page through 48 scrolls. As an example, until she got a haversack at late level 8, my sorcerer carried a spellbook with pages torn out, and scrolls interleaved in the missing pages. She put the spellbook in a sack that hung at her waist (I called it a satchel, and once she had a noble outfit it looked nicer than a plain old sack, but the weight/cost/etc was a sack). She could draw a few common scrolls without pulling the book out of the sack, by touch (they were sticking out of the book at various angles) but if she used an unusual spell, I'd pull the whole book out (luckily I never got disarmed/sundered while doing that). The mechanic though was the PHB one....move action that draws attack of opportunity, can't be combined with a "bab+1 move/free action" thing like you can do with a wand. There are some odd pieces of equpiment out there from builder books or even AR's that change the basic dynamic, but they need to show you the relevant rules text if you are unfamiliar with them. I think the old Tome and Blood scroll organizer let you pull as a move action that didn't provoke, and I think there is something out there for potions that makes them "Weaponlike" but you can't just make it up.
solbergb 07-05-06, 02:36 PM	Another thing... Some of the various PHB clothing has stuff that could easily be used for potion/splash weapon storage. In particular the artisan outfit (leather apron with lots of slots/pockets for tools), the adventurer outfit ("many pockets") and the monk outfit (conceal stuff in folds of it or some such wording). It still wouldn't allow any faster access, but given that most adventurers wear an adventurer outfit, they have "enough pockets" for most small consumables. Scrolls are bigger and scrollcases more awkward/heavy, so I tend to give them more thought, unless my character uses a lot of splash weapons. (my tk sorceress is going to get an artisan outfit at level 10 for storage of large quantities of holy water vials for ready-use hurling with violent thrust..defined as a 4lb leather apron/coverall that she wears over normal clothes with the "tool" slots sized for splash weapons. She'd like to do that with acid, but doesn't want to be melted if she fails a save versus shatter or a similar effect)
SgtHulka 07-06-06, 06:16 PM	Far more common where I come from is folks inventing equipment to allow an incharacter explanation for just HOW they draw a scroll as a "move action that draws an attack of opportunity" instead of taking far longer to page through 48 scrolls. Precisely. My dwarf wizard carries his scrolls in a "bandolier", having memorized the location of each one. But that's just flavor for explaining why it only takes a move action that draws an attack of opportunity to draw one. And he also carries a pack for his other items. Heck, if you start allowing characters to draw things not in their backpack with free actions, we might as well get rid of the backpack altogether. It's already a useless item that takes up 2 lb. of valuable weight. There's no rule that states how much it can hold, nor that you have to have one. I'm sticking my potions in my hat and having straws attached to my mouth. I'm wearing my scrolls woven into my clothes. I'm tying my alchemist's fire to my arms with bits of twine. I'm sticking my pick in the back of my shirt, my pitons in my crotch, and tying my rope around my neck in a noose. Heck, my 10 strength rogue would love to have that two pounds back. Those of us who purchase backpacks take that two pound penalty for the sake of sensible flavor. Those who don't can metagame two extra pounds of carrying capacity. It seems absolutely silly to me that any DM would further reward such a player for not carrying something in a pack by allowing them to draw items with free actions.
GenghisBob 07-07-06, 12:22 AM	in other campaings you can buy Potion, Scroll and Magic User Bandoleer for Quick Drawing items. I have seen certed quick draw potion bandoleers in LG, cant recall what Region / YEar they were from. But they looked cool.
Samo 07-10-06, 08:11 AM	Actually, I never see people forget that rule. I even have had players state that what they were looking for was in their backpack and hence required 1 full round action to retrief. What does generate discussion in these parts of the woods is whether potions, wands and scrolls are "weapons" and can be drawn as a free action as part of a move action. I usually don't object to treat wands as weapons, but scrolls and potions is a different thing. Still, this part of the rules is somewhat vague and it is up to the individual DMs. This is just in a NON LIVING GREYHAWK game I run, but i allow my spell casters to draw their offensive scrolls as a free action, why should they be punished for not wanting to use a weapon?