Post/Author/DateTime	Post
El_Shawno 07-31-07, 11:12 PM	Sooooooooo, I've gotten some good advice re: level dips and Bards. Now here's another important question - what's the best Prestige Class for a Bard? The way I see it is that I've three basic choices, or at least, these are the classes I'm at all familiar with: 1. Sublime Chord. Pro: "Oh hai! I iz reel spellcastr now!" Con: Loss of some Bardic Musical Goodness. 2. Seeker of the Song. Pro: Belting out a tune and giving yr. buds much DR/ vs. Fire. Belting out a refrain and torching many, many people (well, more like singing them, but still...). Con: No more spellz fer yr. u, Bard Boy! 3. War Chanter. Pro: Buff City, baby! Yer friends get all happy during hack n' slash time. Con: No more magic spells. I'm leaning towards the Chord 'cuz, should my guy live that long, I'm thinking being all sorcerous'd be cool n'stuff and would compelement my versatility. OTOH, somehting like Seeker of the Song would be a challenge vis-a'-vis learning the Bard's 'mechanic.' War Chanter would be, IIRC, pure buffing goodness. Any comments, good peoples? Thanks!, El Shawno
CdrcJsn 08-01-07, 01:00 AM	Totally depends on what you want to do in combat: Want to do a bit of fighting yourself? Warchanter Want to do a bit more casting? Sublime Chord or Lyric Thaumaturge Want to totally suck? Seeker of the Song If you want a character that is able to switch between various roles, have moderate spellcasting ability, good skills and makes everyone better at their jobs...single classed Bard is perfectly viable.
bitznarf 08-01-07, 01:50 AM	As posted in the other thread you can also go Bard8/Marshal1/Virtuoso1/Sublime Chord 1/Virtuoso +4. It looks like this: 1:Bard 1 2:Bard 2 3:Bard 3 4:Bard 4 5:Bard 5 6:Bard 6 7:Bard 7 8:Bard 8 - +2/+2 insipre courage 9:Marshal 1 - lose a caster level 10: Virtuoso 1 - lose a caster level -- Qualify for Sublime Chord at this point, sorta making up for the lost caster levels 11: Sublime Chord 1 12: Virtuoso 2 - advance Sublime Chord spellcasting rather than bard 13: Virtuoso 3 - advance Sublime Chord 14: Virtuoso 4 - advance Sublime Chord 15: Virtuoso 5 - advance Sublime Chord You can even take Practiced Spellcaster (Sublime Chord) to get your caster levels back. You will have an oddly low number of 3rd level spells, but so be it. You do get 7th level spells out of this I do believe. I've got a Bard 4 at the moment myself who will be a bard right through to retirement.
Lupo 08-01-07, 03:04 AM	Totally depends on what you want to do in combat: Want to do a bit of fighting yourself? Warchanter Want to do a bit more casting? Sublime Chord or Lyric Thaumaturge Want to totally suck? Seeker of the Song If you want a character that is able to switch between various roles, have moderate spellcasting ability, good skills and makes everyone better at their jobs...single classed Bard is perfectly viable. a bard can even go Lyric Thaumaturge AND Sublime Chord - Bard 1-6/Lyric Thaumaturge 1-4/Sublime Chord 1-5, concentrating more on arcane buffs and battlefield control - loosing a little bit of bardic power but gaining more spellcasting power. on the other hand straight bard is always an option ;) ciao martin m.
Franco Un-American 08-01-07, 03:17 AM	That build doesn't work all that well. Remember, Lyric Thaumaturge doesn't help with determining the Sublime Chord's powers, and you don't get Inspire Courage +2. Also, Song of Arcane Power is great, better tha Jarring Song IMO. Consider Sublime Chord 2 over Virtuoso 5.
Lupo 08-01-07, 03:38 AM	That build doesn't work all that well. Remember, Lyric Thaumaturge doesn't help with determining the Sublime Chord's powers, and you don't get Inspire Courage +2. Also, Song of Arcane Power is great, better tha Jarring Song IMO. Consider Sublime Chord 2 over Virtuoso 5. one can always use the swift spell "inspire courage" to compensate the loss of inspire courage. the Lyric Thaumaturge has the standard: gain spells and spellcaster level as advanced in base class - so should be fine with Sublime Chords powers - or what am i missing?? ciao martin m.
Franco Un-American 08-01-07, 04:19 AM	What you're missing is this: A sublime chord's caster level for bother her sublime chord spells and the spells she gains from one other arcane spellcasting class is is determined by adding her sublime chord level to her level in another arcane spellcasting class. Note it uses 'level', not caster level. Since you'd only be a 6th level bard, the build you posted only has a CL of 11 for both Bard and Sublime Chord spells at level 15.
Timlagor 08-01-07, 08:20 AM	one can always use the swift spell "inspire courage" to compensate the loss of inspire courage. 1) It's "Inspirational Boost" 2) You will never catch up with anyone by using something that everyone else is already using too. Bard 8 gets you the +3/+3 Inspire Courage including the Inspirational Boost. You might consider it a worthwhile sacrifice but it is not one that can be easily made up.
Necrochaos 08-01-07, 08:54 AM	Also available to a bard is Fatespinner. Bard 11/Fatespinner 4. Makes for an interesting combination and no loss of spell progression.
Lupo 08-01-07, 09:06 AM	1) It's "Inspirational Boost" 2) You will never catch up with anyone by using something that everyone else is already using too. uhps, yes, that is the one i meant ;) and yes, this build is giving up 1/3 of the goodies from inspire courage + inspirational boost to gain some more arcane spellpower :) ciao martin m.
Lupo 08-01-07, 09:13 AM	What you're missing is this: Note it uses 'level', not caster level. Since you'd only be a 6th level bard, the build you posted only has a CL of 11 for both Bard and Sublime Chord spells at level 15. ah, i have found it. if this really causes a lot of trouble one can always take "practiced spellcaster" to gain them back ;) but what spells that a bard - lyric thaumaturge - sublime chord would really SUFFER from a lower caster level??? maybe "dispel magic" but this one caps at CL 10 anyway, any bard build will not be the primary damage spell flinger, and a lot of them also cap at caster level 10, so the duration spells remain. ciao martin m.
Mattastrophic 08-01-07, 09:44 AM	Bard8-9/Marshal0-1/Virtuoso1/SubChord1-2/Virtuoso3-4 is quite strong as a spellcasting-bard build. However, it lacks Listen as a class skill, so if you want to go for it, make sure to not hold off Virtuoso until 10th; make sure to take Bard at 10th. -Matt
Timlagor 08-01-07, 03:14 PM	Retraining can presumably deal with that.
bitznarf 08-01-07, 03:18 PM	Retraining can presumably deal with that. Not in this case. When you level from 9th to 10th you are capped at 12 ranks on class skills during the retraining process. And you can't use the 10->11 retraining to qualify for the class you are taking at 11.
Timlagor 08-01-07, 03:50 PM	Ahh yes. forgot Britt's ruling sorry.
Frumpkis 08-02-07, 04:44 AM	Also available to a bard is Fatespinner. Bard 11/Fatespinner 4. Makes for an interesting combination and no loss of spell progression. Even better is Bard 10-11/Sublime Chord 1-2/Fatespinner 3-4 for the ultimate in bard spellcasting builds (adjust numbers to taste). If you're going for a caster bard, I'd recommend staying straight bard until you enter Sublime Chord; it allows you to keep full caster progression. I have a bard build like this (specifically, Brd 11/SC 1/Fsp 2) and it's worked out great. My spell list is mainly enchantments and save-or-be-screwed stuff (Glitterdust, Evard's, Slow). Between Spell Focus (enchantment), Heighten Spell, a Veil of Allure (+2 to your save DCs for all enchantment spells), and Fatespinner levels, I can really crank up those save DCs. I also have Lyric Spell to give me more spells slots if I need 'em. During mustering, I've pretty much taken to calling myself an "arcane caster" as opposed to a "generalist".
clik_ml 08-02-07, 05:01 AM	I've a Bard 4/Pal 2 who was planning on going: Bard 4/Pal 2/Bard 4/SubChord 4/Spellsword1 With Lyric Thaumaturge out there I'm being tempted to take it for my next 4 levels instead of more bard. Decisions, decisions. I'm quite pleased with my saves at the moment (+10 or better for every save at APL 6), he was a much more effective meleer before he lost his troglodyte alters elf, however.
El_Shawno 08-02-07, 01:15 PM	Well, it sounds like a lot of people are high on the Sublime Chord. Fair enough. One thought did cross my mind, however, what if I wanted to be more of a 'generalist?' The reason I ask is that I got to thinking that 2 levels of Favored Soul would enable me to heal myself and those around me. The odd Bless spell couldn't hurt, either. Or is that going in a bad direction?
catsclaw 08-02-07, 01:23 PM	The reason I ask is that I got to thinking that 2 levels of Favored Soul would enable me to heal myself and those around me. The odd Bless spell couldn't hurt, either.Ick. Bless is terrible for bards -- it's a morale bonus, so it doesn't stack with bard song. And if you really want healing, take CLW as a bard spell (but you're better off buying a wand of CLW, for all that). A better choice would be taking a level of cleric and getting some domain abilities and divine feats and PrCs, but even that's likely subpar to the more direct bard PrC's you're looking at.
El_Shawno 08-02-07, 06:42 PM	So, that's a big 'no' to the Favored Soul idea. Good advice.
CdrcJsn 08-02-07, 08:35 PM	So, that's a big 'no' to the Favored Soul idea. Good advice. Definitely. If you want low level clerical spells, just use scrolls. If you kept your UMD up, you'll be able to cast them reliably (emulate a favored soul so you use divine scrolls with your charisma if you used wisdom as a dump stat). Also, a Bard can be a pretty decent healer by itself, especially coupled with Augment Healing. At mid APLs, Insignia of Healing is usually the preferred healing spell used during combat. It's a 3rd level Bard spell as well. Bards also get all the cure spells at all levels so there's no need to multiclass if you want healing.