Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wraith235 11-27-07, 05:59 AM	ok ... I have a player in my Group who has been Considering some things ... an email has been Sent to the PoC Triad Guy asking for some extra information on this and nothing has come back yet ... so heres the Gist to see what the General populace Thinks the Player is Considering Purchasing a Manual of Golem Creation - Clay ... and before it gets asked ... yes he has the Ability to purchase one if he Wants going through the LGCS 7.5 this Item is Not Closed however the Feat "Golem Creation" is Closed .... From the Reading of the DMG on this Item the Manual allows a "Get around" of the Feat Requirement as well as the Spell Reqs so before we get into the Cost of Materials ... is this Item ... its Purchase .... and use ... Viable in LG and if So What is the Actual Cost of Creation (outside the cost of the book) We know about the 1000lb Block of Clay Worth 1500 gp but what else ... the Oils that are mentioned ect ect a Group of us (this player included) are headed to Brookfest07 on Wed Night so any information on this would be Gladly appreciated also if everything is Valid ... how would this be handeled the Golem is a CR 8 (if I remember) with 11 HD ... would this be Treated as a magic Item ... a Cohort ... or a Pet (a CR8 is off the Charts in every Mod I've seen with the Pets effect on APL chart is at)
magebeast 11-27-07, 09:03 AM	I would assume that it would work like a charged item. If he was in a mod that gave him enough time to create the Clay Golem he would be allowed to create the Golem for that mod and then when he reached the end of the mod it would be gone.
Vamroc 12-02-07, 08:45 PM	I know someone who went through the same thing and this is what the triad told him in the short. You could buy it but possession of it is an evil act and using it removes you from play. Because any Golem made from it will be viewed as evil, Pelorites, Paladins, any one Lawful Good will get up and walk away just knowing you have it. :ghosted:
Vamroc 12-02-07, 09:14 PM	I would assume that it would work like a charged item. If he was in a mod that gave him enough time to create the Clay Golem he would be allowed to create the Golem for that mod and then when he reached the end of the mod it would be gone. It stays untill the creature is destroyed other wise what would be the point of a 12k one time use item.
magebeast 12-02-07, 09:46 PM	It stays untill the creature is destroyed other wise what would be the point of a 12k one time use item. There are lots of things that in a normal campaign would stick with you from session to session. Created undead, for instance. However, in LG player effects don't last beyond the mod they come into play.
heirodule 12-02-07, 09:57 PM	Leomund's Secret Chest does. No reason in principle the Golem couldn't stick around. All kinds of creatures stick around.
_metz_ 12-02-07, 10:16 PM	I know someone who went through the same thing and this is what the triad told him in the short. You could buy it but possession of it is an evil act and using it removes you from play. Because any Golem made from it will be viewed as evil Well than the triad was dispensing biased and inaccurate information. Evil acts are not so easily defined, and character removal over such things definetely are not. What region are you in?
magebeast 12-03-07, 01:53 AM	Leomund's Secret Chest does. No reason in principle the Golem couldn't stick around. All kinds of creatures stick around. Yeah but it's specifically enumerated in the LGCS. If it's not enumerated in the LGCS then it doesn't stick.
bitznarf 12-03-07, 11:02 AM	I know someone who went through the same thing and this is what the triad told him in the short. You could buy it but possession of it is an evil act and using it removes you from play. Because any Golem made from it will be viewed as evil, Pelorites, Paladins, any one Lawful Good will get up and walk away just knowing you have it. :ghosted: Yeah, what metz said. Evil acts absolutely *do not* cause a PC to be removed from the campaign. When it comes to 'evilness' only actually *being* evil will cause a PC to be removed from the campaign. And the decision that a specific PC is evil is one that involves both that player's triad and the circle.
Arvagor 12-03-07, 11:34 AM	Well than the triad was dispensing biased and inaccurate information. Evil acts are not so easily defined, and character removal over such things definetely are not.Regardless of whether evil acts in general are easily defined, I'd be curious what they feel is evil in the creation of a clay golem... None of the required spells are [Evil]. OTOH, I suppose one could consider that you are commiting an act of slavery:The animating force for a golem is a spirit from the Elemental Plane of Earth. The process of creating the golem binds the unwilling spirit to the artificial body and subjects it to the will of the golem’s creator.
Puggle Halfwine 12-03-07, 03:09 PM	Except that slavery isn't evil. It's lawful. Real-world example of "Lawful Good" slavery: Slaves of ancient Egypt. I'm not an Egyptologist, but it is my understanding that the slaves who built the pyramids often works for either a salary or as a way of paying taxes. Presumably, if you were paying taxes, you were not allowed to leave- but you knew what you were doing was good and the society in which you lived generally viewed the work as good. While we in the modern era have associated "Freedom" with "Good", in the D&D world it just ain't so. That's not to say that most slavery isn't neutral or evil; IMHO, that's the case. But lawful good slavery exists and this is probably one example of it.
Arvagor 12-03-07, 04:48 PM	that's great, but the spirit bound to the golem is "unwilling"; I don't see anything good in forcing a creature to serve in that way, do you?
Puggle Halfwine 12-03-07, 05:12 PM	Not really, no, but it would depend on what was done with the elemental. I would stick it half way between the LN-LE axis- which isn't grounds for character removal.
_metz_ 12-03-07, 08:58 PM	Lets not forget that ergo if binding an elemental to the golem is evil, therefore summoning creatures is evil. Unless they are named and you have their permission. Just pointing it out, morality is not clear in DnD. Lets not get into the slavery thing again, just search these forums to see the last post, (search slavery) where I myself, and a few others all got too hotheaded and acted innapropriately. (I am equal or more to blame than anyone) Lets not see a repeat of that...
Maesto 12-03-07, 10:32 PM	None of this really helps the OP. I've heard of a PC who pulled together a stone golem using basically the same mechanism as outlined above; the total cost he assigned to his pet golem was about 120,000 gp. He treated it as a magic item on the MIL, and when it got killed, it was crossed off. (ouch!)
Arvagor 12-04-07, 10:55 AM	What is the Actual Cost of Creation (outside the cost of the book) We know about the 1000lb Block of Clay Worth 1500 gp but what else ... the Oils that are mentioned ect ect The cost and other miscellany of creating a particular golem is spelled out in each creature's entry in the MM. In the case of a clay golem, it is: A clay golem’s body must be sculpted from a single block of clay weighing at least 1,000 pounds, treated with rare oils and powders worth 1,500 gp. Creating the body requires a DC 15 Craft (sculpting) check or a DC 15 Craft (pottery) check. CL 11th; Craft Construct, animate objects, commune, resurrection, caster must be at least 11th level; Price 40,000 gp; Cost 21,500 gp + 1,540 XP.The oils, powders, and block of clay are all included in the 21,500 gp figure. He would also still be required to make the appropriate Craft check, which would need to be witnessed by the DM.
Wraith235 12-04-07, 12:35 PM	does the 21,5 figure include the manual ... or is the manual Seperate
magebeast 12-04-07, 02:12 PM	does the 21,5 figure include the manual ... or is the manual Seperate The description of the manual tells you exactly what it contains. Golem Manual A golem manual contains information, incantations and magical power that help a character to craft a golem. The instructions therein grant a +5 competence bonus on skill checks made to craft the golem’s body. Each manual also holds the prerequisite spells needed for a specific golem, effectively grants the builder use of the Craft Construct feat during the construction of the golem, and grants the character an increase to her caster level for the purpose of crafting a golem. Any golem built using a golem manual does not cost the creator any XP, since the requisite XP are "contained" in the book and "expended" by the book during the creation process. The spells included in a golem manual require a spell trigger activation and can be activated only to assist in the construction of a golem. The cost of the book does not include the cost of constructing the golem’s body. Once the golem is finished, the writing in the manual fades and the book is consumed in flames. When the book’s ashes are sprinkled upon the golem, it becomes fully animated. Clay Golem Manual The book contains animate objects, bless, commune, and resurrection. The reader may treat her caster level as two levels higher than normal for the purpose of crafting a clay golem. The book supplies 1,540 XP for the creation of a clay golem. Moderate conjuration, divination, enchantment, and transmutation; CL 11th; Craft Construct, creator must be caster level 11th, animate objects, commune, prayer, resurrection; Price 12,000 gp; Cost 2,150 gp + 1,712 XP; Weight 5 lb. So, the crafter doesn't pay any XP costs since the book is essentially the XP, and he doesn't need to be able to cast any of the spells. He still needs to pay for the materials, so in the end he's out about 24k. Can you take a 10 on craft checks? If so, this means that the player in question automatically meets the requirements for the craft checks assuming he doesn't have any wisdom penalties.
RtrnofdMax 12-04-07, 02:56 PM	So, the crafter doesn't pay any XP costs since the book is essentially the XP, and he doesn't need to be able to cast any of the spells. He still needs to pay for the materials, so in the end he's out about 24k. Can you take a 10 on craft checks? If so, this means that the player in question automatically meets the requirements for the craft checks assuming he doesn't have any wisdom penalties. 1) He doesn't have to "know" the spells, but he does have to be able to use a spell-trigger device. In this case that means he must be an arcane caster or a cleric with the magic domain. 2) The entry under skill does not say that you can't take 10 on your craft so I would assume you can because you would be crafting unthreatened. You could not take 20 because there is a penalty for failure.
Vamroc 12-04-07, 05:52 PM	Hey I just repeated what I was told Keoland is strict with regards to player behavior. You can't even own a slave in a mod that allows you to buy them. As for the Golem Manual the decision had something to with not using the spells for what the Gods intended. In around about way that's how it's consider evil. If I kill a cow in India I'm evil here in New York I'm the person to see about a barbecue. As I said 12k for a one time use item is a waste of time and resources. Soften Earth and Stone then Fabricate to give it shape this is how to avoid paying for the Material components.
magebeast 12-05-07, 12:04 AM	1) He doesn't have to "know" the spells, but he does have to be able to use a spell-trigger device. In this case that means he must be an arcane caster or a cleric with the magic domain. Now there's something to do with a Bard's gold. Buy the tome, UMD that sucker.
Wraith235 12-15-07, 05:49 PM	ok .... Well the answer to the Golem thing is in the campaign standards .. Closed : a Charachter may not take advantage of Items Listed as closed. Ever Feat Craft Golem - Closed Manual of Golem - Grants the user the Feat "Craft Golem" for the duration of the Crafting process