Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Moryath 01-27-06, 08:35 AM	Question for the Circle: why is it that the Multiattack feat is NPC only, when there are classes in LG that grant players Claw/Bite attacks? It seems needlessly restrictive, since the requirement for the feat is that the character have 3 or more natural attacks. Planning to create a Dragon Disciple and just wanting to know.
Paul H 01-27-06, 11:21 AM	Hi Good point. Also, Alter Self Spell (PHB Pg197) states that you gain Racial Bonus Feats, so changing to Troglodyte (MM Pg 246) you gain MultiAttack, since it's a Racial Bonus Feat. (Plus the +6 Nat Armour to AC, etc). Since players already have (limited) access to the feat through Alter Self, Polymorph, etc, shouldn't players have access to it? It could be classed as Limited - and put certain prestige classes, etc. as requirement, in campaign documentation. Eg Limited Feats: MultiAttack. Prereqs: (List Prestige Classes) Cheers Paul H
Moryath 01-27-06, 11:35 AM	Hi Good point. Also, Alter Self Spell (PHB Pg197) states that you gain Racial Bonus Feats, so changing to Troglodyte (MM Pg 246) you gain MultiAttack, since it's a Racial Bonus Feat. (Plus the +6 Nat Armour to AC, etc). Since players already have (limited) access to the feat through Alter Self, Polymorph, etc, shouldn't players have access to it? It could be classed as Limited - and put certain prestige classes, etc. as requirement, in campaign documentation. Eg Limited Feats: MultiAttack. Prereqs: (List Prestige Classes) Cheers Paul H Thanks for your support. It's a serious question that I've just never fully understood - almost no players will ever use Multiattack unless they take a PrC involving natural attacks. On the other hand, by making it available to NPC's but not us, every big nasty baddie that has the racial bonus feat or otherwise is guaranteed to have it.
Paul H 01-27-06, 11:54 AM	Hi Glad we agree on something, (Just not your posting re Warmages) ;) Cheers Paul H
chitzk0i 01-27-06, 01:18 PM	Multiattack would be especially handy for a Centaur Dragon Disciple. Bite/Claw/Claw/Hoof/Hoof, anyone?
kenobi65 01-27-06, 01:33 PM	Multiattack would be especially handy for a Centaur Dragon Disciple. Bite/Claw/Claw/Hoof/Hoof, anyone? That's so wrong. :D What'd be even wronger is if you could manage to make it to 9th level Dragon Disciple, and get the wings, too. Flying centaurs... :dragon:
Paul H 01-27-06, 02:19 PM	Hi Nah - much more useful just to take levels Warmage. 1) Get someone else to cast Enlarge Peson on you) 2) Cast Fist of Stone 3) Cast True Strike 4) Charge, (declaring Leap Attack feat),leap over nearest enemy head, into large crowd of them. 5) Declare Pwr Attack (LOTS). Your Lance now doing 2d6+ (1 1/2 Str mod) damage Pwr Attack now 3 for 1 damage. pretty much auto hitting - Truestrike You've got +6 Enhancement to Str You're doing double damage. (Centaur Charging)! Munchkin Example Centaur, (Original Str 16), Warmage 2 armed with Magical +1 Lance Feats: Pwr Attack, Cleave, Leap Attack Casts Fist of Stone, Truestrike Someone else casts Enlarge on him Charges (Leaps last 10'), into combat. Str 34, Declares Pwr Attck 5. +21 to hit Dam (2d6+19) x 2, plus pwr attack +15, average 67 pts damage! (Unless you double total, including pwr attack, then average 81 pts)! Can Now Cleave! Cheers Munchkin player
Paul H 01-27-06, 02:26 PM	Hi But you'd have to be at least 17th lvl to be flying centaur. Simpler just to be True Neutral follower of Fharlaghn, take Arcane Disciple, Travel Domain, and just cast Fly! (Then retake Arcane Disciple with Celerity Domain & cast Haste)! Cheers Paul H
Samwise 01-27-06, 06:25 PM	Of course you can't have Leap Attack in LG any more. And if you could, you couldn't have 8 ranks as a Centaur 6/Warmage 2, as Jump isn't a class skill for either of them. And you can't cast enlarge person on a centaur, which is a monstrous humanoid and not a humanoid. Things are still out on centaur PCs doing double damage on a charge. You aren't proficient with a lance, so a -4 to hit. And of course you need to prepare for a full round to get it off, so hopefully the bad guys haven't simply crowded you so you can't charge. So you'll do just a bit less damage. Str 30, +24 to hit, Dam 2d6+25 (average 32 points, maybe doubled to 64 points if you get the charge bonus) Whereupon the bad guys carve you to pieces.
Namarus 01-27-06, 09:45 PM	Hi Nah - much more useful just to take levels Warmage. 1) Get someone else to cast Enlarge Peson on you) 2) Cast Fist of Stone 3) Cast True Strike 4) Charge, (declaring Leap Attack feat),leap over nearest enemy head, into large crowd of them. 5) Declare Pwr Attack (LOTS). Your Lance now doing 2d6+ (1 1/2 Str mod) damage Pwr Attack now 3 for 1 damage. pretty much auto hitting - Truestrike You've got +6 Enhancement to Str You're doing double damage. (Centaur Charging)! Munchkin Example Centaur, (Original Str 16), Warmage 2 armed with Magical +1 Lance Feats: Pwr Attack, Cleave, Leap Attack Casts Fist of Stone, Truestrike Someone else casts Enlarge on him Charges (Leaps last 10'), into combat. Str 34, Declares Pwr Attck 5. +21 to hit Dam (2d6+19) x 2, plus pwr attack +15, average 67 pts damage! (Unless you double total, including pwr attack, then average 81 pts)! Can Now Cleave! Cheers Munchkin player Enlarge person doesn't work on Centaurs.
Paul H 01-28-06, 11:53 AM	Hi 1) Leap Attack is in LGCS (Pg 24) Though you're right - not class skill, later levels required. Later LGCS may change this. 2) If we using Savage Species progession for Centaur, then it lists Heavy Lance, (not available LG) as proficiency. Simple - use Longspear instead. 3) Thought that the double damage from charging Centaurs issue had been resolved. 4) No Enlarge Person, fine. Str 26+Fist of Stone = Str 32 for attack/damage. so, +21 to hit, D8+27 damage. (Then Cleave, etc). Cheers Paul H
Samwise 01-28-06, 01:16 PM	Hi 1) Leap Attack is in LGCS (Pg 24) Though you're right - not class skill, later levels required. Later LGCS may change this. It is already changed, see Dispel Confusion. 2) If we using Savage Species progession for Centaur, then it lists Heavy Lance, (not available LG) as proficiency. Simple - use Longspear instead. We aren't using the Savage Species. 3) Thought that the double damage from charging Centaurs issue had been resolved. It doesn't matter, a longspear doesn't do double damage on a charge anyway. 4) No Enlarge Person, fine. Str 26+Fist of Stone = Str 32 for attack/damage. so, +21 to hit, D8+27 damage. (Then Cleave, etc). Cheers Paul H How do you get Str 26? If you mean from level bumps, that is wrong. Those bumps are HD based, not just level based. A Centaur 6/Warmage 2 only has 6 HD, so only has one stat bump. And unless something has been severely wounded, I don't think you will cleave anything doing 30-40 damage at APL 8.
Paul H 01-29-06, 07:21 PM	Hi Centaurs (once completed all six levels) get +10 str, etc. Cheers Paul H
Samwise 01-29-06, 08:05 PM	Hi Centaurs (once completed all six levels) get +10 str, etc. Cheers Paul H Centaurs get +8 Str, +4 Dex, +4 Con, -2 Int, and +2 Wis. They Start with +2 Dex and -2 Int. They get +2 Str and +2 Wis at 2nd level. They get +2 Str and +2 Con at 3rd level. They get +2 Str and +2 Dex at 4th level. They get +2 Str and +2 Con at 5th level. That is in Races of the Wild (the source we are supposed to use), Savage Species, and the Monster Manual. So Str will be 24 if you started with 16.
TallGuy 01-30-06, 04:27 AM	Centaurs get +8 Str, +4 Dex, +4 Con, -2 Int, and +2 Wis. They Start with +2 Dex and -2 Int. They get +2 Str and +2 Wis at 2nd level. They get +2 Str and +2 Con at 3rd level. They get +2 Str and +2 Dex at 4th level. They get +2 Str and +2 Con at 5th level. That is in Races of the Wild (the source we are supposed to use), Savage Species, and the Monster Manual. So Str will be 24 if you started with 16. And you do NOT get the stat bump at level 6. Monster Manual, page 290: Ability Score Improvement: Treat monster Hit Dice the same as character level for determining ability score increases. This only applies to Hit Dice increases, monsters do not gain ability score increases for levels they already reached” with their racial Hit Dice, since these adjustments are included in their basic ability scores.
Paul H 01-30-06, 04:16 PM	Hi There's some confusion between what my Savage Species says, and MM. Ie. at 6th lvl you gain 'Large' size. Presumably you also get +2 Str, -2 Dex, -1 AC, -1 Attack, etc. So Centaur (all 6 lvls) would be: Str +10, Dex +2, Con +4, Wis +2, Int -2, Cha +0 Including size modifier, etc. However, MM lists stats as you said. (Would always take MM over Savage Species, anyway, since MM is later book). Still - not bad for only +2 levels! Cheers Paul H
Arvagor 01-30-06, 04:36 PM	There's some confusion between what my Savage Species says, and MM. Ie. at 6th lvl you gain 'Large' size. Presumably you also get +2 Str, -2 Dex, -1 AC, -1 Attack, etc. ... However, MM lists stats as you said. (Would always take MM over Savage Species, anyway, since MM is later book). MM and Savage Species don't matter... Whatever progression is in Races of the Wild is the "correct" one, as that is the version of centaur that is used for PC centaurs.
Samwise 01-30-06, 08:20 PM	Hi There's some confusion between what my Savage Species says, and MM. Ie. at 6th lvl you gain 'Large' size. Presumably you also get +2 Str, -2 Dex, -1 AC, -1 Attack, etc. Cheers Paul H Those ability score changes for size only apply when advancing a monster normally. They do not apply to the monster level advancement, other than the size adjustment to AC and attack rolls. In general though, don't presume such things. The rules are written very specifically, and such things should not be added. Otherwise we would have to presume the Centaur gets -2 Str and +2 Dex when just being medium, when it clearly doesn't.
Paul H 01-31-06, 08:02 AM	Hi Thanks for the reply. The rules aren't always specific, as you say. 'Enlarge' spell (etc) state the change in stat mods, etc. when changing size. Which is explicit itself. Couldn't see how one rule explained once place is changed in Savage Species. But that's why we have these boards to find out. Cheers for the help Paul H
TallGuy 01-31-06, 08:44 AM	The rules aren't always specific, as you say. 'Enlarge' spell (etc) state the change in stat mods, etc. when changing size. Which is explicit itself. The Enlarge spell states the changes in stats when you are enlarged. When you advance a monster and it increases in size, the Monster Manual tells you the change in stats. That's +8 Str and +4 Con, and a -1 on attack and AC. I'm not 100% sure about -2 dex, so check the Monster Manual in the back. Couldn't see how one rule explained once place is changed in Savage Species. Because you're looking in the wrong place. The PHB doesn't mention advancing monsters, the Monster Manual does. Savage Species (and Races of the Wild for that matter) only carve up the racial hitdice into manageable classes for PCs.