Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Moryath 10-18-04, 01:48 PM	In a recent mod I was in, we had to deal with a door with runes on it (I'm being as general as possible to avoid spoiling things if someone's reading who hasn't played the module yet). So, the party tried to decipher the runes. According to the boxtext, we were allowed either a knowledge(arcana) check, or Decipher Script check, to figure them out one at a time. I wanted to simply wait overnight (we'd cleared the area and had the time), memorize Comprehend Languages, and then read the runes. The DM disallowed it because it didn't specifically say in the module that Comprehend Languages would allow reading the runes. He argued that the runes weren't "text", merely symbols, whereas I would think that anything (at least anything nonmagical, which these were) that a Decipher Script check could be used on ought to be fair game for Comprehend Languages as well. Bad call, or badly written mod, or am I in the wrong?
heirodule 10-18-04, 01:55 PM	Its a close call. Maybe you could think of the runes like the symbols we use for planets in astronomy. They aren't a "language," but they are symbols. Comp Lang says it won't decipher a code, and its arguable that a set of specific symbols are more like a "code" than a language.
SteveMND 10-18-04, 02:13 PM	Or, to use a more 'modern' example, think of the classic yellow-M-on-red McDonalds logo, or the Pepsi can red-white-blue swirl logo.. Both of those would be instantly recognizable to someone who is familiar with their usage, but otherwise devoid of any further meaning to those who have no idea what they stand for.
Moryath 10-18-04, 02:30 PM	But if the frame of reference is THAT far out there, why would Decipher Script and Knowledge(Arcana) give you a check to read them? Even worse is that (to say more of the module) the runes were a warning - "bad stuff, do not go in here" and then the stuff we didn't get with our checks (which we would have gotten if Comp Lang was allowed) was apparently more detailed versions of same that would have given us ideas on how to prepare for the fight. As for comprehend languages not deciphering a code, I didn't think that a runic language would count as "code", otherwise any pictorial language similar to Asian languages or Egyptian hieroglyphics would have the same problem there. I was under the impression that Comprehend Languages would allow you to (for instance) read the TEXT of an encoded message, but wouldn't tell you that (for example) the recipe for banana bread you've just Comprehend Language-ed has a hidden subtext that is the combination for opening the door to the thieves' guild.
SteveMND 10-18-04, 03:56 PM	Well, the K:A is because that those with ranks in them probably would have come across them before, and thus knows the meaning (i.e., to again use my example, it'd be the equivalent of Knowledge: Corporations). Not knowing what module it is, I can't comment further, but if it was supposed to be a warning... well, again, to use a modern example, if you came across a door with a big red circle with a line it in, you'd probably get the idea that it was forbidden or restricted, but if you'd never had any familiarity with the symbol before, you'd be out of luck, and no XXX-to-English dictionary (i..e., Comprehend Languages) would help. :-) As to Decipher Script, I can't really say -- it's been a very haphazardly-applied skill since 3.0, and doesn't really seem to follow much of a pattern to it's usage (in application, at least). My own personal opinion is that, since the skill description refers more to 'lines of text' and other patterned writing (as opposed to single symbols, like the modern slash-circle 'no' example), anything it would be usable on would be translateable by Comp Lang, and vice versa. It appears to be more of a case of looking at the entirety of a sequence of symbols and getting the overall meaning by looking at the whole and by deciphering the context of each symbol as well. That said, I've often seen module writiers use Decipher Script where it probably shouldn't be just to provide an extra 'out' for a table of players that might not have a cleric with that spell at the table. Which, incidently, is one of the best reasons why everyone -- cleric or not -- should think about carrying an extra scroll of Comp Lang, just in case. Chances are somebody at the table will be capable of casting it, even if they don't currently have it memorized.
Samwise 10-19-04, 07:05 PM	I would generally allow someone to use Comprehend Languages to read such a thing, unless it were a code. I would not generally expect the spell to be referenced in a module for the simple reason it does not require a DC to use. The only time I would expect to see it would be if the spell would not work. On the other side, I generally discourage hanging around for an entire day to rest and recover spells unless taking such extra time is at least strongly suggested, if not directly allowed, within the module text. In too many cases the challenge of certain encounters becomes irrelevant if they are taken one at a time over several days. Worse, the progress of some modules becomes irrelevant if taken over the course of several days. (Rescue missions and the like.) While most note this clearly, not all do, and I will disallow such waiting if I feel it is outside the scope of a module. And of course, in Keoland some things are really better left unread. :D