Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DroidTrooper 01-01-07, 01:24 PM	I don't want to hi-jack the thread any farther as it has very little to do with the Complete Mage. This is in responce to the thread "Complete Mage Too Powerfull?????" http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=758479 In which a character wanted to burn down the home of a villain within the confines of a town/city. And the GM said it would be an evil action and would constitute the removal of the character from LG. ----------------------------------------- I still consider myself fairly new to the rpga and very new to GMing in the RPGA. While I don't know any more of the situation (have not played the mod) than what has been posted thus far. I would not be real comfortable with the idea that burning down the house was inherently evil, and would require the removal of the character. I think it qualifies as a very poor judgment by the party as I view fires as in incredible hazard in medieval towns/cities. I would through out a very low DC 5/10ish knowledge (architecture/local/history/bardic/nobility) to have some remember something about what the law might do in that situation. And DC10/15 to remember that if a stranger started the fire the penalties would likely be more severe. And a low DC 10ish spot check to notice that occasionally a citizen passed by and might have noticed them. (So that they realize they can't just skip town without at least some effort.) Should the party go through with starting the fire. I would hit them with a large fine (1,000gp*APL/members of the party caught) should they in any way try to claim the work as theirs (like trying to collect a reward from someone for services rendered) or if they stayed at the scene or even in the town. And extra TU cost (4-12), spent escaping and hiding/talking your way into a lesser sentence/letting your reputation cool off. I'd probably discuss it with everyone at the table to find an adequate stiff penalty. If we had time to spare I would probably have a magistrate ask them point blank what they feel a reasonable penalty would be. For the RPGA though, I think for something to be evil enough to take away the character it should be pretty clearly evil. And in my mind starting a fire, even starting a fire in a city, where it could potentially harm the common folk is not evil. (I don’t have a problem with the GMs decision or even object to it, as he thought it was evil thus he acted appropriately.) With that said. If a party does something stupid that should have lasting consequences what makes for reasonable consequences? Were the penalties I suggested above reasonable? I appreciate your thoughts.
Britt 01-01-07, 01:35 PM	First, a DM cannot remove your character from the campaign. That is the domain of your Triad. You can note what the character did on their AR and contact the Triad, but the DM cannot do the actual removal. Second, I do not think it would be appropriate to institute fines or other non-RP penalties that are not included in the adventure. LG is intended to have consistent play of adventures across tables and creating penalties runs counter to that. I'm not saying you can't penalize them, but it needs to be within the bounds of the adventure. Have the hiring NPC fire them; have the bad guy get away; apply listed penalties from the mod; etc.
DroidTrooper 01-01-07, 03:33 PM	Well, after hearing that, and rereading the LGCS FAQ. I suppose what the GM said he would do is the right way to go. I was under the impression that a reported evil act caused immediate removal of a character (akin to lethally attacking another PC), and now realize that the triad grades on more than a purely case by case (instead looks at the entirehistory of the character.) before making its decision. Thusly the GM labling an action as evil, doesn't carry quite the weight as I thought in my initial post and am not as opposed to it. Thank you for the swift reply.
clannagh 01-01-07, 06:43 PM	First, a DM cannot remove your character from the campaign. That is the domain of your Triad. You can note what the character did on their AR and contact the Triad, but the DM cannot do the actual removal. Second, I do not think it would be appropriate to institute fines or other non-RP penalties that are not included in the adventure. LG is intended to have consistent play of adventures across tables and creating penalties runs counter to that. I'm not saying you can't penalize them, but it needs to be within the bounds of the adventure. Have the hiring NPC fire them; have the bad guy get away; apply listed penalties from the mod; etc. We had a recent controversy over just this issue when a local GM decided to have an Inevitable NPC in a now expired mod apply a permanent "Mark of Justice" to a PC because that PC had a favor allowing time stop.
NiTessine 01-02-07, 12:27 AM	We had a recent controversy over just this issue when a local GM decided to have an Inevitable NPC in a now expired mod apply a permanent "Mark of Justice" to a PC because that PC had a favor allowing time stop. Hmm. Why? I know the quaruts are tasked with guarding the fabric of space and time, but it explicitly states in the time stop spell description that it doesn't actually stop time, merely speeds up the caster. In the Principality of Naerie, we have a special "Wanted!" AR that is handed out when a character commits a serious crime in the Principality. It lists crimes and punishments under the Ahlissan law. The DM ticks the crimes and if the PC is caught at some point, the AR is numbered, filled out with the relevant gp and TU deductions and added to the character's stack. You can download it on our website to check it out yourself: http://www.thesplinteredsun.info/naerie/download.html We've used them for two years now, I think, and I am only aware of one occasion when they were handed out, to four characters who ran off with stuff they were supposed to be guarding in a module.
Madfox11 01-03-07, 04:20 AM	Second, I do not think it would be appropriate to institute fines or other non-RP penalties that are not included in the adventure. LG is intended to have consistent play of adventures across tables and creating penalties runs counter to that. I'm not saying you can't penalize them, but it needs to be within the bounds of the adventure. Have the hiring NPC fire them; have the bad guy get away; apply listed penalties from the mod; etc. You do realize you are suggesting that PCs can commit crimes without being punished for it? When it is likely that a PC commits a crime in an adventure you could include it, but no author can take all possible actions into account. For example, I personally would not take into account that a PC would actually be stupid enough to torch the house of a villain in the middle of a city. Mind you, players can complain about any sentence to the Triad (basically going to a higher court) or even me (the Circle). Anything involving the permanent removal of a character through long term punishment or execution almost end up at our feet by definition. I know of only five instances where PCs commited crimes unexpactedly, although two of those situations should have been mentioned in the adventures. In two cases people used ranged attacks against an assassin in a dense crowd. The official rules might not deal with misses hitting others, neither player complained when one was fined for reckless endangerment of innocents (he hit the target) and another was fined to pay for the raise dead and 1 year of hard labor (he hit a commoner in a nation that doesn't really care much about commoners). Both were properly warned by the DM in advance. Two other cases were a group of PCs who misjudged a situation and killed a couple of charmed commoners with an area of effect spell while protecting the city against a demon. They were fined and forced to work at the local Pelorite hospital for a couple of weeks. The other was of a PC that joined the SB in Red Tide and was stupid enough to stand in line when the city guard was actually looking for SB members. The PC never realized SB was illegal in the region, so he was put in a reeducation camp for 6 months and placed under a mark of justice afterwards with the old mark being removed. The fifth was about a half-orc who got so ****** off at a NPC that he blew up the whole taverns. Now that was an evil act, and the triad actually had that PC executed. As for the original case, I am not sure it is an evil act perse, although it is really borderline and callous. Arson is a really serious crime, and even when the PCs would have the abilities to quench the fire afterward it would result in a serious fine. If not, long intendured service or even execution are likely.
Simpi 01-03-07, 05:13 AM	The other was of a PC that joined the SB in Red Tide and was stupid enough to stand in line when the city guard was actually looking for SB members. The PC never realized SB was illegal in the region, so he was put in a reeducation camp for 6 months and placed under a mark of justice afterwards with the old mark being removed. Hey, I was in that table and I only wondered if the "Scarlet" in his name was merely a mention to his usual fashion and did not realise until he was stopped by the city guard :D (Because I figured that nobody would actually be that open about his SB membership, especially in Europen regions) Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
gomeztoo 01-03-07, 05:26 AM	Well, Skit (who promptly changed his name afterwards) wasn't exactly a subtle PC, as I recall it... Then again if you are relatively new to play you could miss subtle stuff like how the SB is universally hated :P Some ideas, like joing the SB, or giving PCs templates, that sound good at the time turn out to not work that well in practice.
solbergb 01-04-07, 12:28 AM	#1 - learn the laws in the region where you are running if you judge. This is one reason out-of-region judges aren't allowed for regional modules. Most regions with rule of law have fixed fines/penalties for crimes against property and people. There are no "apl*1000" fines and also the local law enforcement has to catch the PC - running away is often an option although that depends on the PC's capabilites vs the logical capabilites of the local law, based on spell resources they can assemble and leveled trackers/investigators they might be able to muster for their population and political organization. Some regions have pretty harsh penalties for things that aren't even crimes in other regions. When running out of region stuff or cores, read the background info. They often have crime/punishment sections for more lawful regions. Places like Greyhawk or Dyvers, well, it's more about whether you bribe the right guy near as I can tell. If you aren't sure, erring on the side of making restitution = not pressing charges is probably the best route. Kill somebody important enough to get you in trouble? A raise dead will usually smooth things over and a reincarnate and good diplomacy might do in a pinch. Make whole can fix many property damage issues, as can things like wall of stone or fabricate.
Madfox11 01-04-07, 09:31 AM	A fine of x gold per APL is actually not that illogical. I know several regions where fines are based on the amount of gold the criminal has which is best translated in something APL related when dealing with adventurers. Even in RL their are nations where the fine is based on income... Finland for example. I also know of regions where they have different types of execution as well: - non-raisable execution - raisable execution
solbergb 01-04-07, 02:15 PM	Yeah, in the Pale most crimes are new dawn time or in some cases an optional fine (they'd rather rehabilitate you into nice Pholtan citizens, but they'll take cash if the victim prefers it) Some crimes are execution offenses where friends/relatives are allowed to recover body. Other crimes are execution offenses where they scatter the ashes to the winds.
LGMoses 01-04-07, 02:23 PM	Executioner: You are hereby to be executed for your crimes in the Theocracy of the Pale. Have you any last words? Prisoner pc: Tell my friends I'll see them tommorrow. Executioner: *whack* prisoner: *death*
solbergb 01-05-07, 11:58 AM	Think of execution with recovery as a fine in gold and xp, and you'll have the right idea (and if you're too poor, it's permanent) It's a perfectly plausible punishment given LG cosmology.
_m_ 01-08-07, 12:29 AM	Hmm. Why? I know the quaruts are tasked with guarding the fabric of space and time, but it explicitly states in the time stop spell description that it doesn't actually stop time, merely speeds up the caster. In the Principality of Naerie, we have a special "Wanted!" AR that is handed out when a character commits a serious crime in the Principality. It lists crimes and punishments under the Ahlissan law. The DM ticks the crimes and if the PC is caught at some point, the AR is numbered, filled out with the relevant gp and TU deductions and added to the character's stack. You can download it on our website to check it out yourself: http://www.thesplinteredsun.info/naerie/download.html We've used them for two years now, I think, and I am only aware of one occasion when they were handed out, to four characters who ran off with stuff they were supposed to be guarding in a module. i think what clannagh was questioning wasn't the motive, but rather the fact that a local dm dosen't have the right to add a permemnant mark of justice to a character if it isn't on the AR.
clannagh 01-08-07, 12:37 AM	i think what clannagh was questioning wasn't the motive, but rather the fact that a local dm dosen't have the right to add a permemnant mark of justice to a character if it isn't on the AR. pretty much its not a biggie because the mark can be removed for a few hundred gold the issue was more on principle, the PC in question had not done anything wrong .. merely had a favor that allowed him to call up a time stop from elsewhere now if the same DM had tried to have a NPC cast a permanent spell that gave the PC a benefit on a whim that would be illegal by LGCS so there seems to be a double standard going on
qstor 01-09-07, 02:37 PM	I think it would be entirely appropriate to check your regions laws and penalities document and assess penalities from that document, if the module was a regional module. Mike