Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Stexe 07-08-06, 03:12 PM	One of the people I run games for (of Living Greyhawk) insisted on taking Quick Draw at first level despite my warning and the suggestions of better and more appropriate feats. He does use it semi-effectively, despite not being a thrower with multiple attacks (which is the only real use I can think). I let him quick draw his shield (which could be used as a weapon) and his polearm, along with his greatsword, which he constantly mixes up depending on the opponent. I don't see any good use of Quick Draw because anyone with a BAB of +1 can draw when moving and therefore doesn't really need Quick Draw until they get multiple attacks. Some people have said that he can draw potions and wands with it as a free action, but I do not classify them as weapons (although maybe an alchemist fire / tangle foot bag I would), and Quick Draw only works with weapons. He plays a Half-Orc Barbarian with 6 INT, 8 WIS and 6 CHA, lol, but even a character that dumb would know to specialize in something useful for survival. I know there is a use for Quick Draw stated in Complete Adventurer (with palming a dagger to make the opponent lose dex bonus), but without a steak attack or a dagger it does little good for his character (this ability IS allowed in LG under the rules that alternative uses for feats and skills are allowed under DM approval). So anyone have any ideas of using Quick Draw to its full potential? P.S. Are there any other feats or prestige classes that have a pre-req of Quick Draw? I know Master Thrower gets it for free, and I told him this, but he still insisted on taking Quick Draw.
Arvagor 07-08-06, 04:53 PM	Allowing him to Quick Draw a shield is treading a fine line, IMO. PHB lists readying or loosing a shield as a move action, albeit one that can be done while moving. One could draw a weapon while moving, attack a monster, and when you discover it has DR, drop that weapon and switch to an appropriate one at the end of your round (so you are then armed with a weapon that gets through DR for the purpose of AoOs). It's a prerequisite for the following feats: Flick of the Wrist, Hurling Charge, Instant Reload, Storm of Throws (last two are Epic, though). Take a look here: http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Prestige.pdf and you'll be able to search and find what Prestige classes Quick Draw is a pre-req for... (Dread Pirate, Whisperknife are two that I can think of off the top of my head)
Lupo 07-08-06, 05:07 PM	One of the people I run games for (of Living Greyhawk) insisted on taking Quick Draw at first level despite my warning and the suggestions of better and more appropriate feats. He does use it semi-effectively, despite not being a thrower with multiple attacks (which is the only real use I can think). I let him quick draw his shield (which could be used as a weapon) and his polearm, along with his greatsword, which he constantly mixes up depending on the opponent. I don't see any good use of Quick Draw because anyone with a BAB of +1 can draw when moving and therefore doesn't really need Quick Draw until they get multiple attacks. Some people have said that he can draw potions and wands with it as a free action, but I do not classify them as weapons (although maybe an alchemist fire / tangle foot bag I would), and Quick Draw only works with weapons. He plays a Half-Orc Barbarian with 6 INT, 8 WIS and 6 CHA, lol, but even a character that dumb would know to specialize in something useful for survival. I know there is a use for Quick Draw stated in Complete Adventurer (with palming a dagger to make the opponent lose dex bonus), but without a steak attack or a dagger it does little good for his character (this ability IS allowed in LG under the rules that alternative uses for feats and skills are allowed under DM approval). So anyone have any ideas of using Quick Draw to its full potential? P.S. Are there any other feats or prestige classes that have a pre-req of Quick Draw? I know Master Thrower gets it for free, and I told him this, but he still insisted on taking Quick Draw. the BAB +1 thingy lets you draw a weapon WHILE doing a move action, whereas "quick draw" let you draw a weapon as a free action. someone with "rapid shot" needs quick draw when using thrown weapons. and wands are per definition weaponlike enough to be drawn with quickdraw (faq Main35FAQv06212006 p. 41) ciao martin m.
zigspatty 07-08-06, 09:10 PM	Quick draw is also useful if you need to change weapons (to find the right type to bypass DR or switch from a ranged to melee weapon) because then you have the chance to use that move action to sheathe your weapon and quick draw a new one. It's surprising how often it is undesireable to just drop your weapon, (in the water, surrounded by enemies, on a bridge or ledge) especially if your party arcane has a liking for destructive AE spells. (Even a simple burning hands can mean a quick end for that now unattended bow...) Quick Draw may not be the most optimal choice for a level 1 feat, but it's not a bad feat. Since the player is stuck with his choice, you don't need to try and convince him that he erred. It's kind of a fun thing to be able to roleplay that quick draw ability, so let him enjoy it. Just ensure that as DM you enforce the core rules so he doesn't encounter nasty surprises when he sits at someone else's table. Patty
Iswald 07-08-06, 11:25 PM	It sounds to me that he is using it effectively. Use a polearm for reach, when you have to close, drop the polearm and quickdraw the greatsword. Note that you can quickdraw wands, though I can't remember the source. It might have been better to take it at sixth level, but if you take it at first, then your sixth level feat could be from outside the PHB.
Stexe 07-09-06, 07:15 AM	I allow him to Quick Draw a shield because it can be readied during a move action and is listed damage in the Weapons area of the PHB. You did list some good things, and I'll relay the message to him about other ideas of its usage. If anyone has anymore just list them. Thanks.
Stexe 07-09-06, 10:04 AM	It sounds to me that he is using it effectively. Use a polearm for reach, when you have to close, drop the polearm and quickdraw the greatsword. Note that you can quickdraw wands, though I can't remember the source. It might have been better to take it at sixth level, but if you take it at first, then your sixth level feat could be from outside the PHB. He could just do this by using a move action to draw weapon, 5 foot stepping up for free, and attacking with the now drawn greatsword. The only advantage would be to put away the polearm with the move and draw with the free. I mean it is OK, but for a whole feat use? Eh...
SgtHulka 07-09-06, 11:55 AM	But he loses his iterative attack. Quickraw, by making it a free action, means he gets his +6/+1 attack instead of just his +6 attack. As Iswalde mentioned, it starts to pay off at sixth level.
ithardin 07-09-06, 02:13 PM	The most effective use I have seen with Quickdraw is a fighter PC who frequents tables I am on (and thank goodness for it). He will stand at the front with his ranseur and with his other feats (combat reflexes, improved trip, etc) and will trip those moving in to attack us. When the trip is successful he will then drop the ranseur and quick draw a weapon like a scythe and use it for the follow-up melee attack.
Iswald 07-09-06, 09:09 PM	But he loses his iterative attack. Quickdraw, by making it a free action, means he gets his +6/+1 attack instead of just his +6 attack. As Iswald mentioned, it starts to pay off at sixth level. You could use quickdrawwith TWF at level one. Not that that's the case here, but quickdraw can be a nice feat to have. Also, if you lose your weapon to disarm, sunder, or damage/breakage you can replace it and still get full attacks. A character could use it to mix melee and thrown attacks.
clannagh 07-09-06, 09:19 PM	characters vulnerable to disarm .. (particularly small character using light weapons) will be able to draw a new weapon without taking an attack of opportunity and wasting an action to pick up the dropped one
GreySector 07-10-06, 10:13 AM	The most effective use I have seen with Quickdraw is a fighter PC who frequents tables I am on (and thank goodness for it). He will stand at the front with his ranseur and with his other feats (combat reflexes, improved trip, etc) and will trip those moving in to attack us. When the trip is successful he will then drop the ranseur and quick draw a weapon like a scythe and use it for the follow-up melee attack. When you say "follow-up melee attack" I hope you are talking about his next regular attack and not the free attack granted by Improved Trip when you successfully trip an opponent. The free Improved Trip attack happens immediately after the trip with (IMO) no time to insert two free actions (drop tripping weapon and quickdraw new weapon).
Iswald 07-10-06, 10:38 AM	The most effective use I have seen with Quickdraw is a fighter PC who frequents tables I am on (and thank goodness for it). He will stand at the front with his ranseur and with his other feats (combat reflexes, improved trip, etc) and will trip those moving in to attack us. When the trip is successful he will then drop the ranseur and quick draw a weapon like a scythe and use it for the follow-up melee attack. I'm slightly confused by this as well. When you trip with a reach weapon, they will fall 10' away from you because the AoO happens before they get within 5'. They could stand, provoking an AoO, if you're still wielding your ranseur, then 5' step to make a single attack. But, you could just take a 5' step back and still make a full attack. Of course, you could also drop the ranseur and quickdraw the scythe to make a full attack.
Mommy was an Orc 07-10-06, 10:44 AM	When you say "follow-up melee attack" I hope you are talking about his next regular attack and not the free attack granted by Improved Trip when you successfully trip an opponent. The free Improved Trip attack happens immediately after the trip with (IMO) no time to insert two free actions (drop tripping weapon and quickdraw new weapon). That's dependent on the DM, though it seems quite clear to be allowed by PHB.You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, the DM puts reasonable limits on what you can really do for free.
Howie23 07-10-06, 11:52 AM	The most effective use I have seen with Quickdraw is a fighter PC who frequents tables I am on (and thank goodness for it). He will stand at the front with his ranseur and with his other feats (combat reflexes, improved trip, etc) and will trip those moving in to attack us. When the trip is successful he will then drop the ranseur and quick draw a weapon like a scythe and use it for the follow-up melee attack. A ranseur is not a weapon with the tripping capability. It can't be used to trip. Maybe you meant guisarme? David
ithardin 07-10-06, 01:09 PM	yes, a guisarme (he has one of each...in fact he has about 10 weapons).
solbergb 07-10-06, 01:27 PM	Quickdraw has its uses, but it is most effective for characters that get multiple attacks from a full attack. Can be ranged or can be melee. You see it more on archers, because they start getting multiple attacks at level 2-3, instead of level 6, and the impact of dropping down to one shot for them tends to be larger than a power attacking fighter. It is also useful for throwing multiple weapons, but I see that as secondary to the primary function - an enabler for full attacks that penetrate DR.
egoslayer1 07-21-06, 09:14 AM	Just remember the point is to have fun. In the grand scheme of things QD is a pretty reasonable feat, and I personally don't think it should be limited to something that does damage. For example, a vial of holy water can certainly be a weapon, so one would think you could quickdraw it? but if that vial is filled with a potion of healing it is now no longer eligible for QD? That probably doesn't make sense. I would personally allow quick draw on any item that is [sufficiently easy to grab]. For example, when a weapon is sitting at your hip in a sheath that is made for easy removal, it is very available, not hidden in your backpack. [If] the char had a special bandolier or belt pouches for holding potions, I would let him quick draw those as well. I wouldn't let them QD a potion out of thier backpack, or a normal beltpouch because I dont think those are as easily grabbed. There are far more pro-min/maxing feats than that one, so I would encourage him to run with it, besides it has a lot of flavor for role playing. As for the shield, I personally wouldn't allow that one. The shield IS a move equivilent action, the weapon can be drawn WHILE moving, so the act of drawing the weapon is effectivly a non-action while moving. That being said, if you want to allow the shield, again I dont think it will destroy game balance because he can get his shield out. And finally, as simple food for thought, I have allowed people to take quick-stowe, to allow them to sheath a weapon as a free action. And I have seen an immediate draw feat, so that you could ready your weapon out of turn. Now this doens't mean you can do anything iwth it, but you would suddenly threaten, and in this particular case the character had some abilities tied to having his weapon readied. Unusual, but again, not [too] beneficial for a feat IMO. ES
jeffpicard 07-22-06, 02:46 PM	one point that hasn't been brought up is charging, while you can combine drawing a weapon with a regular move, a charge is a special full round action, and thus ineligible for drawing a weapon for free, with quick draw you can get the free action and charge as for a shield, it can also be readied WHILE moving, the only difference between the draw a weapon and ready a shield entries in the PH are that weapons mentions that drawing ammo is a free action, and that weaponlike objects (such as wands) in easy reach use the same rule, out of reach in a backpack uses the stored item rule