Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jay_Ibero_911 07-03-07, 01:29 PM	All the stink about Ordained Champion in the Complete Champion thread got me thinking. I realize that it is certainly a powerful class, but I'm wondering which people consider cheesier: Radiant Servant, the reigning champion of cleric cheese, or the Ordained Champion, newcomer cheese? Please just post which you think is cheesier, and maybe a brief reason why. Please do not comment on other people's posts.
Mattastrophic 07-03-07, 03:21 PM	Apples and oranges. Can't really compare them. -Matt
Jay_Ibero_911 07-03-07, 03:26 PM	Apples and oranges. Can't really compare them. -Matt Sure they do different things, but you can certainly still compare them in terms of which is cheesier.
Vanadium 07-03-07, 05:33 PM	Why is it that in Living Greyhawk I don't hear about things in terms of power, but instead of cheese? I wouldn't mind if people said that something was abusive or powerful, but what the heck does cheese have anything to do with Pelor or Greyhawk? Really, the two classes have nothing in common. One can be used wherever, just needs a deity from a good list. One is of use only to Battle Clerics of a certain deitiy (unless they adapt it). One gives marginal benefits (just better than 'nothing' offered by cleric levels), one gives a heaping helping of awesome at the cost of a spell level. Ordained Champion simply gives out too much to see play. That's a slight shame in my mind, seeing as every cleric I've been thusfar has been a devotee of Pelor, and I've yet to see a cleric devoted to Heironeous in my stetch of the Shield Lands. Then again, I can probably say in no uncertain terms that if this class were made legal, I would be playing one. Heck, if I thought this class had even the slightest chance of making it in, I'd make a battle cleric right now in preparation for it. I don't see me scrambling for a character sheet now, either. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see it in play, but I think that the powers that be would opt to keep it out, which is fine in my mind. This is especially considering the fact that, at best, the class will be NONC disguised as Core (Core, but you need to gain access to it, so it's not really Core, is it?). This means the odds of early entry are slim to nil, yet the early entry by Hextorian Death Squads that will invariably pop up are a certain thing.
Mattastrophic 07-03-07, 05:39 PM	Why is it that in Living Greyhawk I don't hear about things in terms of power, but instead of cheese? I hear that! I can't stand that C-word! It's almost as if it makes people who utilize the "C*****" option out to be cruel, evil people whose very participation is detrimental to the campaign. -Matt
bitznarf 07-03-07, 05:52 PM	I hear that! I can't stand that C-word! It's almost as if it makes people who utilize the "C*****" option out to be cruel, evil people whose very participation is detrimental to the campaign. -Matt I know what you mean. Sorry to further derail the thread (sorta), but I agree with Matt here. So some players don't like optimization. Fine. That doesn't make it wrong. I am assuming here that most people who call things 'cheesy' are using the word in a derogatory fashion.
ShinAkuma2 07-03-07, 07:09 PM	And while we're on the subject, why does any character with a specialization get referred to as a "monkey"? Everything nowadays is a "trip monkey" or "knowledge monkey" or "turn monkey"...Can't I play a character that's good at something without him being reduced to that core element slapped on the end of a simian?
KShaver 07-03-07, 07:14 PM	And while we're on the subject, why does any character with a specialization get referred to as a "monkey"? Everything nowadays is a "trip monkey" or "knowledge monkey" or "turn monkey"...Can't I play a character that's good at something without him being reduced to that core element slapped on the end of a simian? Put the afore complained about cheese with your monkey and you have your answer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheese-eating_surrender_monkeys
Timlagor 07-05-07, 07:19 PM	That link doesn't look remotely useful... the monkey part seems to have been picked up from somewhere else and the cheese aspect simply isn't relevant.
Donald_Cannith 07-08-07, 02:48 AM	I like ordained champion. Though personally, I like the Sacred Exorcist. Sure it comes up once in a blue moon but man when it does it is SOOO useful its ridiculous. So iguess with chees being a derogatory temr and by cleric to not Pelor is the only one I have seen I would say Radiant servant for the win.
_metz_ 07-08-07, 03:54 AM	One caster role allows for better turning and casting on top of a base class. One provides benefits far in excess of that. Cannot compare them. I will say that I feel that RSoP is very good, but no less good than Fatespinner, Occult Slayer, Unseen Seer, etc. Ordained Champion on the other hand breaks a few mechanics. Clerics aren't supposed to have quickened divine power before level 15. LET alone things like flame strike.
Eric Anondson 07-08-07, 03:09 PM	Ordained Champion on the other hand breaks a few mechanics. Clerics aren't supposed to have quickened divine power before level 15. LET alone things like flame strike.I'm trying to look at it the way a designer might have been when they put this together. They probably compared it to things other classes can do. Ordained champion can do a swift divine power at OC4. Divine power brings the caster's BAB up equal to ful BAB. Divine power gives a +6 enhancement bonus to Str. Doesn't stack with other enhancement bonuses, but does mean the opportunity cost can be shifted to another slotted item. Divine power gives 1 temporary hit point per caster level As a 10th level character a Cleric 5/OC5 can do this 3 times per day if they sacrifice all of their other 4th level spells, lasts 8 rounds. As an 11th level character a Cleric 6/OC5 can do this 5 times per day if they sacrifice all their 4th and 5th level spells, lasts 11 rounds. Compared to rage from barbarian Activated as a free action on your turn. Generally, already at full BAB. Rage gives a +4 inherent bonus to Str, so it stacks with enhancement bonus from magic. Rage gives 2 temporary hit points per hit die (double divine power generally). Rage boosts Will saves by +2, but a full cleric already had good Will. Rage drops AC by –2 Lose ability to cast spells while raging. A 10th level barbarian can rage 3 times per day. At 11th level a barbarian's bonuses go to +6 inherent Str and +3 temporary hit points (now triple divine power) per hit die. Initially, it's not out of line with raging. It starts to get much more interesting at higher levels with swift blade barrier at 13th level and swift flamestrike at 11th level, but there are still some limits. The ordained champion's nifty abilities are generally all done as swift actions. You are limited to doing a single swift action per round. By the time you can swift flamestrike, other War domain clerics have moved on to blade barrier and harm. By the time you can swift blade barrier, other War domain clerics have moved on to power word blind and other 7th level spells like holy word. The more non-War Domain high level spells you cast, the more swift spells you deplete. I'm not saying I think Ordained Champion is a light-weight. I'm just trying to see it from a comparison with other choices.
jstorrie 07-08-07, 05:53 PM	Ordained Champion is far more powerful than Radiant Servant. The 'other War domain clerics' have to spend actions on their spells; Ordained Champions can throw swift flame strikes around willy-nilly. Two flamestrikes per round > one harm per round. If the Ordained Champion's only class feature was the ability to swift-cast War domain spells they'd already be unbalanced–but then they also have smite, a DR ability, bonus feats, a caster level bump to make up for their progression loss, full bab, and Channel Spell. If Ordained Champion was let into the campaign at this point it would be the most powerful access around, period.
Jay_Ibero_911 07-08-07, 07:03 PM	Ordained Champion is far more powerful than Radiant Servant. The 'other War domain clerics' have to spend actions on their spells; Ordained Champions can throw swift flame strikes around willy-nilly. Two flamestrikes per round > one harm per round. If the Ordained Champion's only class feature was the ability to swift-cast War domain spells they'd already be unbalanced–but then they also have smite, a DR ability, bonus feats, a caster level bump to make up for their progression loss, full bab, and Channel Spell. If Ordained Champion was let into the campaign at this point it would be the most powerful access around, period. Just a note though, all of the Ordained Champion's abilities require a swift action. So they are either casting an extra spell OR smiting OR getting DR OR getting a damage bonus. And the DR and damage bonus both eat spells. So While they do have quite the array of abilities, they are still action starved to use them all. Not that I don't think it's still an amazingly powerful class, it's just that many people don't seem to realize they can't do everything at once.
Eric Anondson 07-08-07, 07:08 PM	Ordained Champion is far more powerful than Radiant Servant. The 'other War domain clerics' have to spend actions on their spells; Ordained Champions can throw swift flame strikes around willy-nilly.You say that like there is an unlimited supply in a day. ;) but then they also have smiteAt the cost of a (rather pointless, but finite) turn undead useage and their one swift action for the round. a DR abilityAt the cost of a spell for the day and their one swift action for the round. bonus featsAt the cost of giving up their domain granted power. a caster level bump to make up for their progression lossCaster level boost for War domain only, and still two levels behind casting ability. full babAt the cost of a 4th-level or higher spell for the day, and your swift action for the round. and Channel SpellWhich is darn nice, but it is still at the cost of a move action for the round and you would have had to prepare the spell beforehand. If Ordained Champion was let into the campaign at this point it would be the most powerful access around, period.It is darn nice, I don't dispute that. It seems like the designers are coming to the opinion that swift actions are not as "free" as we all might be thinking. And it is possible the designers just plain screwed up and there is a ton of errata waiting to turn a ton of these abilities into something else. All the spells lost to power the OC remove future healing from the party. It seems clear that the designers believe player of the fighting-cleric/ordained champion to regulate their spell-loss. If you are the only healer at the table as an ordained champion you are not going to be dumping your spells to make yourself a frontliner. If you are not the only healer you will make a very decent frontliner with great party back-up spells if you don't expend all your resources on yourself. I'd really like to hear the designer's reasoning behind the class.
Banor 07-08-07, 07:11 PM	Ordained Champion is far more powerful than Radiant Servant. The 'other War domain clerics' have to spend actions on their spells; Ordained Champions can throw swift flame strikes around willy-nilly. Two flamestrikes per round > one harm per round. If the Ordained Champion's only class feature was the ability to swift-cast War domain spells they'd already be unbalanced–but then they also have smite, a DR ability, bonus feats, a caster level bump to make up for their progression loss, full bab, and Channel Spell. If Ordained Champion was let into the campaign at this point it would be the most powerful access around, period. Note that he can't do any of his Smite, Channel spell, Arcane strike-like abilities if he use his two flame strike per round. Also a cleric do not have unlimited spell slots especially level 5 ones. The biggest point against the Ordained Champion is that he does have a lot of abilities but cant use them at the same time. He will never be a full powerattacker with shock trooper, a full BAB and free +6 belt, throwing Flame Strike, while smiting and channeling Harm. Only a featless fighter, that run into melee doing mediocre damage and a flame strike a couple time a day.
solbergb 07-09-07, 03:26 PM	The biggest point against the Ordained Champion is that he does have a lot of abilities but cant use them at the same time. He will never be a full powerattacker with shock trooper, a full BAB and free +6 belt, throwing Flame Strike, while smiting and channeling Harm. Only a featless fighter, that run into melee doing mediocre damage and a flame strike a couple time a day. Actually he can be a powerattacker with shock trooper, full bab and +6 "belt" Ordained champion doesn't cost any feats, he can be a shock trooper by level 9 just fine, and he gets the full BAB and +6 enh strength as swift action. Every round after the first, he gets a free flame strike too. Or a smite, or whatever else might be better. He's not a featless fighter. He's still got at least 3 general feats to work with, which is enough when combined with all the other stuff you get from cleric levels (like free enh bonuses to armor and weapons via GMW and Magic Vestment)
jstorrie 07-09-07, 11:03 PM	"At the cost of his swift action for the round?" The greater majority of characters don't even have swift actions to spend in their rounds–or at least not in all of their rounds, like an Ordained Champion does. It comes right down to this: every round, the Ordained Champion gets to go twice. Actions are power. Actions are power. An Ordained Champion will have enough Flame Strikes to cakewalk any LG mod. I doubt there are many encounters that will not be 'solved' with the judicious application of six or less of them. When the Flame Strikes run out, you don't need those swift actions any more, so they go to smites, or flipping on class features. If you are the only healer at the table you will still dump two Flame Strikes per round and then use low-level spells or wands to do the cleanup work later. The best defense is a good offense, after all. You won't have to worry about MAD, since Wisdom and Constitution are your only real priorities–14 Str and 12 Cha are fine. Seriously, if you can't grasp that Ordained Champion is completely broken the moment you get swift War casting, test it in a home game. You will steamroll everything.
Ancillary 07-09-07, 11:35 PM	I believe channel spell itself is sufficiently powerful. My Gish is bleeding caster levels and options to get it 3 times a day and OC gets it as an afterthought? Ordained Champion is almost as good as Spellsword for an Arcane gish.
control freak 07-10-07, 12:09 AM	NO thats all i can say to this class it cant exist in greyhawk oh boo whoo, i can only quicken 1 spell a turn, a quickent magic whepon or 5 ends battels as fast at mid apls as flame strike at high apls (even a balor cant take 10 magic whepons after a while :D ) and thats besides the fact, turn 1 of combat (unless i mis read it) quickend flame strike flame strike channel spell turn 2 quickend divine power full attack spell goes off flame strike thats so broken it broke the mirror it looked in shakes head thats just pure evil, and should be closed EVEN to authors or PC death rate will sky rocket after getting multi flame striked want to let it open, watch APL10+ be broken as heck and any one worshiping hextor will take this "but you lose 2 caster levels" its not relivant when you double the ablity to churn out spells if a wiz said "skip 2 levels of spell progerssion, cast +1 spell per turn from list xyz"
Mommy was an Orc 07-10-07, 10:38 AM	Ordained by a lot. It isn't just a Cleric PrC. For pretty much any melee build, Cleric 1/Ordained Champion 2 is really useful without even tweaking. You get: 4 feats(WF: Longsword, Diehard, 2 bonus fighter feats) Smite usable 1-10 times a day without spending a feat. +5 Fort/Will Attach it to a Charisma-based build(Paladin, Divine Crusader, Outcast Champion anyone?), and it goes through the roof. The other big issue is that you don't actually need 5 levels of anything to get into the class - you can enter at 4th. You can demolish your BAB if you like without real consequence - a Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 1/Ordained Champion 1 gets an additional bonus feat. Paladin 2/Fighter 1/Cleric 1/Ordained Champion 5/Divine Crusader 6 Paladin 2/Fighter 1/Cleric 1/Ordained Champion 5/Outcast Champion 3/Divine Crusader 3 are both powerhouse builds with Domain Spont(War)
Donald_Cannith 07-10-07, 02:37 PM	I like it just because it would make us see clerics to gods not named Pelor. I have seen a total of 3 non pelorian clerics since I hve been playing(excluding the 2 I have played). I want to see something different is all, I suppose.
jstorrie 07-11-07, 03:52 AM	Play a mod in Zeif. Everyone's either Al-Akbar, Azor'alq, Geshtai, Istus or Xan Yae.
Banor 07-11-07, 06:53 AM	I like it just because it would make us see clerics to gods not named Pelor. I have seen a total of 3 non pelorian clerics since I hve been playing(excluding the 2 I have played). I want to see something different is all, I suppose. Play a mod in Zeif. Everyone's either Al-Akbar, Azor'alq, Geshtai, Istus or Xan Yae. Pelor is an infidel anyway
bitznarf 07-11-07, 09:09 AM	Al-Akbar actually has a great deal of respect for Pelor. He actually has remained a Demigod because of that respect, not wishing to rise up beyond Pelor. It was infact Pelor that gave Al-Akbar the Cup and Talisman if I recall correctly.
Banor 07-11-07, 10:00 AM	yea i know i was kidding :) I just like to point people as heretic :)
Hariman 07-14-07, 11:27 PM	I'm not gonna argue that the Ordained Champion isn't Abjurant Champion level broken. (What is it with "Champion" classes being broken?) But I will say: Maybe Warcasting is only meant for Domain SLOTS. So you only get as many swift spells as you have war domain slots. Which isn't as bad, but it's still pretty killer. But still, they're free metamagic uses, and Britt has stated that the Circle is cracking down on free metamagic uses. (Which was part of the reason that Abjurant Champion and Ultimate Magus were Closed.) Not to mention the excess of other class features that grant WAY more than the lost caster levels take away. Oh, and if you Bomb Flamestrike and cast a healing spell with your other actions, you're contributing more than most other characters can.
TetsujinOni 07-18-07, 09:49 AM	I like it just because it would make us see clerics to gods not named Pelor. I have seen a total of 3 non pelorian clerics since I hve been playing(excluding the 2 I have played). I want to see something different is all, I suppose. 1 each, Gendwar Argrim, Lydia, and Cheesehat... err, Pelorite. And a wizard who plays like a Cuthbertine, but that's a separate issue :D
Hariman 07-19-07, 11:06 AM	1 each, Gendwar Argrim, Lydia, and Cheesehat... err, Pelorite. And a wizard who plays like a Cuthbertine, but that's a separate issue :D Does that make me crazy for having Farlaghn as first choice for any cleric I made, with Weejas as the second? (The Weejas cleric would likely be a shadowbane inquisitor who prepares a number of healing spells and uses inflicts to hurt living enemies.) I think both classes are about equally broken. They both add to what is a great class already and allow it to do more than it normally could. Radiant Servant might get full casting, but Ordained Champion gets more because of the lost caster levels.
TetsujinOni 07-20-07, 11:49 AM	Does that make me crazy for having Farlaghn as first choice for any cleric I made, with Weejas as the second? (The Weejas cleric would likely be a shadowbane inquisitor who prepares a number of healing spells and uses inflicts to hurt living enemies.) Nah. Just means I'm willing to slot up ARs for support characters at a fairly generous pace.