Ranger & favored enemy? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ranger & favored enemy? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mortepierre
10-21-04, 11:07 AM Let's say I make a ranger and I select as my 1st lvl favored enemy "Humanoid (human)", will that apply to all human subraces of LG or do I have to choose one (i.e. Suel)?

I checked the LGCS but didn't find anything about it.
Greyson
10-21-04, 11:14 AM Hi, Mortepierre.

You do not have to choose a Greyhawkian human sub race for the Ranger's Favored Enemy feature - as of now. Choosing Humanoid (human) will suffice and apply to them all.

It use to be that you could not choose human at all. But you can now, and it is a growing trend in our region. A lot of bad guys are humans these days.
Graysidejedi
10-21-04, 12:15 PM Greyson,

Could you provide the reference for this? I chose Humanoid for my Ranger, and I'm getting more than a few people telling me I can't.

Thanks.
SteveMND
10-21-04, 01:01 PM The reference is the section under the Ranger's class description where it tells you what you can and can't choose as a favored enemy.
Graysidejedi
10-21-04, 01:09 PM The reference is the section under the Ranger's class description where it tells you what you can and can't choose as a favored enemy.

Thanks, Steve. In what book? I checked the LGCS. I was told that it wasn't legal for LG.
Eyeohn
10-21-04, 02:24 PM To my knowledge, all the human sub races (At least the ones in the LGG) are exactly the same in every aspect other than cosmetic appearance. It really wouldn't make sense to me if you had to pick a specific one as a favoured enemy, As the bonus rangers get to damage is rationalized as using knowledge of weak points in your favoured enemies anatomy and since all humans regardless of race have the same anatomy it would apply to all of them. However that’s just me. If whoever your dealing with insists it is not valid for Living Greyhawk, ask them where it says so and if it does not specifically say so in one of the "core" or Living Greyhawk specific books than I'd call that a house rule, which has no place in the Living Greyhawk Campaign.
Graysidejedi
10-21-04, 03:06 PM Eyeohn, I completely agree with you. It's just that I had a couple people insist that choosing your own race makes you evil in LG, thus a Human Ranger couldn't take Humans. I only started playing again in January, so I'm still relying on others for their knowledge of the rules. I'm catching up though! :)
CruelDM
10-21-04, 03:52 PM Someone once said to me that choosing human as a favored enemy was inherently "evil" and therfore not allowed in LG. Just heresay mind you, I dont have a favored enemy with any class I currently play.
Mortepierre
10-21-04, 04:46 PM Thanks all! :)

In regard to the "you can't choose Human without being evil" problem, that's a big mistake.

In 3.0E, it was true but - and a lot of people have yet to notice this - it is no longer so in 3.5E.

I bet those who insist you can't take it are remembering 3.0E. Ask them to point that out in the 3.5E PHB and watch the surprise on their face when they can't :D
Graysidejedi
10-21-04, 05:13 PM Well Gang, I searched through the LGCS and it isn't in there. I just re-read the PHB Ranger class entry for the bazillionth time and it's not there either. If someone can come up with a published, accepted reference, I'd still like to hear it. Until then, my Ranger is keeping humans as her favored class. Now to decide on Archer or Two-weapon fighting. Hmmm...

The only thing I saw that is contrary to anything said here is from the PHB. If Humaniod is taken as a favored enemy, then a subclass must be specified.
SteveMND
10-21-04, 05:24 PM Which is what you were asking about, right? You may need to be more specific when referring to previous posts.
Graysidejedi
10-21-04, 05:32 PM Which is what you were asking about, right? You may need to be more specific when referring to previous posts.

Steve, sorry. You are right. I wasn't very clear.

What I had asked about was a reference saying that Human Rangers can not take Humans (specifically) as their favored enemy in LG. I can't find one in either the PHB or the LGCS.

However, while we're on the topic, I would also like to see a reference saying that sub-Humans do not need to be specified, since that contradicts what I read in the PHB. I didn't look for that in the LGCS, but I will.
deusxmachina
10-21-04, 06:11 PM Yeah, the PHB makes it obvious that you have to choose a specific subtype of human. If Living Greyhawk is different, I'd like to hear it, too.
Eyeohn
10-21-04, 07:23 PM I do not believe you need to specify a specific greyhawk human race as your favoured enemy because they are NOT sub races, A sub Race has different traits than the parent race. The humans in Living Greyhawk, such as the Suel, Baklunish..Etc etc do not have different traits as far as I know. The only difference between the races are cosmetic, In other words the Suel are no more a sub race of humans than any given family is a Sub Race. If a different set of cosmetic features justifies classification as a sub race, then every individual family might as well be a sub race. Though if I happen to be sadly misinformed, I apologize for wasting time =)

Also to clarify, the players handbook 3.5 states that if you choose HUMANOID you must choose a sub type. Human IS a sub type in the favoured enemy class feature and would include all humans.
hustonjj
10-21-04, 07:29 PM Yeah, the PHB makes it obvious that you have to choose a specific subtype of human. If Living Greyhawk is different, I'd like to hear it, too.

Hunh? My PHB says I have to specify a specific type of HUMANOID, and that HUMAN is a valid subtype of HUMANOID.

I can se how the mistake would be made, but it is very clear in the text above the table that the TYPE HUMANOID must be further defined to a specific SUBTYPE, with no reference to HUMAN, at all.

In the table, it clearly identifies that HUMAN is a valid SUBTYPE for HUMANOID, and that a specific example of HUMAN is any human.

The table also shows that GOBLINOID is a SUBTPE of HUMANOID, and that hobgoblin is a specific example of a GOBLINOID.

See how I'm using the table, yet?

Jeff Huston
Spobody Necial
deusxmachina
10-21-04, 10:52 PM I miswrote and should have said "humanoid." And now seeing the original question again, I had read it too quickly and processed "subrace" as "subtype."

Having said that, I'd be surprised if a subRACE (I got it right that time) would need to be defined in LG as a human should be a human, regardless of race. Otherwise Favored Enemy wouldn't get much use.
CruelDM
10-22-04, 02:02 AM If you choose humanoid, you have to specify human, 1/2 elven, elven, dwarven, 1/2 orc, halfling etc. Thats it as far as I know, In LG I doubt you have to select Baklunish etc. if you can select humanoid.
Greyson
10-22-04, 12:47 PM In LG I doubt you have to select Baklunish etc. if you can select humanoid. Exactly, CruelDM. A Character does not have to selecet Balklunish, Suel, etc. And, that is the point we're trying to make.

A Ranger character may, using the rule in the v.3.5 PHB on page 47, choose a favored enemy from Table 3-14: Ranger Favored Enemies. That favored enemy must be a single Type and (subtype). And, Humanoid (human) is an acceptable favored enemy in Living Greyhawk as per the PHB. There is neither an overriding document or rule that prohibits the Humanoid (human) as a favored enemy, nor is there a rule requiring a character to further delineate and specify a particular Greyhawkian human race.

Humanoid (human) will suffice for a Living Greyhawk Ranger character. As would Humanoid (elf) - no need to specify Wood Elf, High Elf, etc.
CruelDM
10-22-04, 03:42 PM For role playing purposes I wouldnt see a problem with allowing you to further refine your choice down to a specific nationality (Baklunish, Suel, wood elf, etc.) for racial enemy. This would, however, greatly reduce your opportunities to use it as mentioned earlier.
oroborous
10-22-04, 08:32 PM As a player of a human ranger who has chosen Favored Enemy: Humanoid (human) , I can tell you that I've gotten all the "Oh No! You can't do that without being evil!" speeches, but as soon as I point out the difference between 3.0 and 3.5 DnD Rangers they back off and wish they could do the same.

I think the designers decided that Good people of their race could hunt the Evil people of their race, like City Watch or Bounty Hunter meta-orgs, which is just fine by me.
Phoenixcommander
10-23-04, 01:23 AM I have to fully agree that yes Human is a viable choice for Rangers for their favored enemy. (As stated in the 3.5 PHB)

But here is a little tid-bit I just learned...
Did you know that your favored enemy bonus (which is now +2 to dameage not +1 like 3rd edition) is available all the time as long as you have a viable target? So that Ranger with a longbow can pick off his favored enemy at 500 feet away if he can hit from that range...and he/she gets there +2 to damage. ;) Thought you might like to know. (I was present during many debates about this one, along with the "evil if same race" arguement.)

Thanks for your time,

Yours in Gaming,

Andrew Thompson
King Kashue
10-25-04, 08:03 PM If you choose humanoid, you have to specify human, 1/2 elven, elven, dwarven, 1/2 orc, halfling etc. Thats it as far as I know, In LG I doubt you have to select Baklunish etc. if you can select humanoid.

Just to nit pick, for all game mechanics related to Race, Half-Elves count as Elves, and Half-Orcs count as orcs (PHB pp. 18 & 19 respectively)...
oroborous
10-25-04, 11:49 PM Just to nit pick, for all game mechanics related to Race, Half-Elves count as Elves, and Half-Orcs count as orcs (PHB pp. 18 & 19 respectively)...

I just wanted to back your statement up with some IRL experience that I had.

At a major Dyvers con I had to actually appeal to a higher-level judge because the table judge said my Favored Enemy: Humanoid (orc) didn't apply to Half-Orcs. It was a very tight, orc-oriented mod where the bonuses were needed, and I was able to get the ruling to go in my favor. Since then, I haven't had any more troubles.

(For those of you keeping score at home my ranger has +4 on Humans and +2 on Orcs)
King Kashue
10-26-04, 01:15 AM I just wanted to back your statement up with some IRL experience that I had.

At a major Dyvers con I had to actually appeal to a higher-level judge because the table judge said my Favored Enemy: Humanoid (orc) didn't apply to Half-Orcs. It was a very tight, orc-oriented mod where the bonuses were needed, and I was able to get the ruling to go in my favor. Since then, I haven't had any more troubles.

(For those of you keeping score at home my ranger has +4 on Humans and +2 on Orcs)

Man, I've never had a table judge not take an explicit PHB reference...I've had some that had wacky interpretations of some PHB stuff, but never anything quite that plain (the PHBs wording is "for ALL effects related to race")...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mortepierre 10-21-04, 11:07 AM	Let's say I make a ranger and I select as my 1st lvl favored enemy "Humanoid (human)", will that apply to all human subraces of LG or do I have to choose one (i.e. Suel)? I checked the LGCS but didn't find anything about it.
Greyson 10-21-04, 11:14 AM	Hi, Mortepierre. You do not have to choose a Greyhawkian human sub race for the Ranger's Favored Enemy feature - as of now. Choosing Humanoid (human) will suffice and apply to them all. It use to be that you could not choose human at all. But you can now, and it is a growing trend in our region. A lot of bad guys are humans these days.
Graysidejedi 10-21-04, 12:15 PM	Greyson, Could you provide the reference for this? I chose Humanoid for my Ranger, and I'm getting more than a few people telling me I can't. Thanks.
SteveMND 10-21-04, 01:01 PM	The reference is the section under the Ranger's class description where it tells you what you can and can't choose as a favored enemy.
Graysidejedi 10-21-04, 01:09 PM	The reference is the section under the Ranger's class description where it tells you what you can and can't choose as a favored enemy. Thanks, Steve. In what book? I checked the LGCS. I was told that it wasn't legal for LG.
Eyeohn 10-21-04, 02:24 PM	To my knowledge, all the human sub races (At least the ones in the LGG) are exactly the same in every aspect other than cosmetic appearance. It really wouldn't make sense to me if you had to pick a specific one as a favoured enemy, As the bonus rangers get to damage is rationalized as using knowledge of weak points in your favoured enemies anatomy and since all humans regardless of race have the same anatomy it would apply to all of them. However that’s just me. If whoever your dealing with insists it is not valid for Living Greyhawk, ask them where it says so and if it does not specifically say so in one of the "core" or Living Greyhawk specific books than I'd call that a house rule, which has no place in the Living Greyhawk Campaign.
Graysidejedi 10-21-04, 03:06 PM	Eyeohn, I completely agree with you. It's just that I had a couple people insist that choosing your own race makes you evil in LG, thus a Human Ranger couldn't take Humans. I only started playing again in January, so I'm still relying on others for their knowledge of the rules. I'm catching up though! :)
CruelDM 10-21-04, 03:52 PM	Someone once said to me that choosing human as a favored enemy was inherently "evil" and therfore not allowed in LG. Just heresay mind you, I dont have a favored enemy with any class I currently play.
Mortepierre 10-21-04, 04:46 PM	Thanks all! :) In regard to the "you can't choose Human without being evil" problem, that's a big mistake. In 3.0E, it was true but - and a lot of people have yet to notice this - it is no longer so in 3.5E. I bet those who insist you can't take it are remembering 3.0E. Ask them to point that out in the 3.5E PHB and watch the surprise on their face when they can't :D
Graysidejedi 10-21-04, 05:13 PM	Well Gang, I searched through the LGCS and it isn't in there. I just re-read the PHB Ranger class entry for the bazillionth time and it's not there either. If someone can come up with a published, accepted reference, I'd still like to hear it. Until then, my Ranger is keeping humans as her favored class. Now to decide on Archer or Two-weapon fighting. Hmmm... The only thing I saw that is contrary to anything said here is from the PHB. If Humaniod is taken as a favored enemy, then a subclass must be specified.
SteveMND 10-21-04, 05:24 PM	Which is what you were asking about, right? You may need to be more specific when referring to previous posts.
Graysidejedi 10-21-04, 05:32 PM	Which is what you were asking about, right? You may need to be more specific when referring to previous posts. Steve, sorry. You are right. I wasn't very clear. What I had asked about was a reference saying that Human Rangers can not take Humans (specifically) as their favored enemy in LG. I can't find one in either the PHB or the LGCS. However, while we're on the topic, I would also like to see a reference saying that sub-Humans do not need to be specified, since that contradicts what I read in the PHB. I didn't look for that in the LGCS, but I will.
deusxmachina 10-21-04, 06:11 PM	Yeah, the PHB makes it obvious that you have to choose a specific subtype of human. If Living Greyhawk is different, I'd like to hear it, too.
Eyeohn 10-21-04, 07:23 PM	I do not believe you need to specify a specific greyhawk human race as your favoured enemy because they are NOT sub races, A sub Race has different traits than the parent race. The humans in Living Greyhawk, such as the Suel, Baklunish..Etc etc do not have different traits as far as I know. The only difference between the races are cosmetic, In other words the Suel are no more a sub race of humans than any given family is a Sub Race. If a different set of cosmetic features justifies classification as a sub race, then every individual family might as well be a sub race. Though if I happen to be sadly misinformed, I apologize for wasting time =) Also to clarify, the players handbook 3.5 states that if you choose HUMANOID you must choose a sub type. Human IS a sub type in the favoured enemy class feature and would include all humans.
hustonjj 10-21-04, 07:29 PM	Yeah, the PHB makes it obvious that you have to choose a specific subtype of human. If Living Greyhawk is different, I'd like to hear it, too. Hunh? My PHB says I have to specify a specific type of HUMANOID, and that HUMAN is a valid subtype of HUMANOID. I can se how the mistake would be made, but it is very clear in the text above the table that the TYPE HUMANOID must be further defined to a specific SUBTYPE, with no reference to HUMAN, at all. In the table, it clearly identifies that HUMAN is a valid SUBTYPE for HUMANOID, and that a specific example of HUMAN is any human. The table also shows that GOBLINOID is a SUBTPE of HUMANOID, and that hobgoblin is a specific example of a GOBLINOID. See how I'm using the table, yet? Jeff Huston Spobody Necial
deusxmachina 10-21-04, 10:52 PM	I miswrote and should have said "humanoid." And now seeing the original question again, I had read it too quickly and processed "subrace" as "subtype." Having said that, I'd be surprised if a subRACE (I got it right that time) would need to be defined in LG as a human should be a human, regardless of race. Otherwise Favored Enemy wouldn't get much use.
CruelDM 10-22-04, 02:02 AM	If you choose humanoid, you have to specify human, 1/2 elven, elven, dwarven, 1/2 orc, halfling etc. Thats it as far as I know, In LG I doubt you have to select Baklunish etc. if you can select humanoid.
Greyson 10-22-04, 12:47 PM	In LG I doubt you have to select Baklunish etc. if you can select humanoid. Exactly, CruelDM. A Character does not have to selecet Balklunish, Suel, etc. And, that is the point we're trying to make. A Ranger character may, using the rule in the v.3.5 PHB on page 47, choose a favored enemy from Table 3-14: Ranger Favored Enemies. That favored enemy must be a single Type and (subtype). And, Humanoid (human) is an acceptable favored enemy in Living Greyhawk as per the PHB. There is neither an overriding document or rule that prohibits the Humanoid (human) as a favored enemy, nor is there a rule requiring a character to further delineate and specify a particular Greyhawkian human race. Humanoid (human) will suffice for a Living Greyhawk Ranger character. As would Humanoid (elf) - no need to specify Wood Elf, High Elf, etc.
CruelDM 10-22-04, 03:42 PM	For role playing purposes I wouldnt see a problem with allowing you to further refine your choice down to a specific nationality (Baklunish, Suel, wood elf, etc.) for racial enemy. This would, however, greatly reduce your opportunities to use it as mentioned earlier.
oroborous 10-22-04, 08:32 PM	As a player of a human ranger who has chosen Favored Enemy: Humanoid (human) , I can tell you that I've gotten all the "Oh No! You can't do that without being evil!" speeches, but as soon as I point out the difference between 3.0 and 3.5 DnD Rangers they back off and wish they could do the same. I think the designers decided that Good people of their race could hunt the Evil people of their race, like City Watch or Bounty Hunter meta-orgs, which is just fine by me.
Phoenixcommander 10-23-04, 01:23 AM	I have to fully agree that yes Human is a viable choice for Rangers for their favored enemy. (As stated in the 3.5 PHB) But here is a little tid-bit I just learned... Did you know that your favored enemy bonus (which is now +2 to dameage not +1 like 3rd edition) is available all the time as long as you have a viable target? So that Ranger with a longbow can pick off his favored enemy at 500 feet away if he can hit from that range...and he/she gets there +2 to damage. ;) Thought you might like to know. (I was present during many debates about this one, along with the "evil if same race" arguement.) Thanks for your time, Yours in Gaming, Andrew Thompson
King Kashue 10-25-04, 08:03 PM	If you choose humanoid, you have to specify human, 1/2 elven, elven, dwarven, 1/2 orc, halfling etc. Thats it as far as I know, In LG I doubt you have to select Baklunish etc. if you can select humanoid. Just to nit pick, for all game mechanics related to Race, Half-Elves count as Elves, and Half-Orcs count as orcs (PHB pp. 18 & 19 respectively)...
oroborous 10-25-04, 11:49 PM	Just to nit pick, for all game mechanics related to Race, Half-Elves count as Elves, and Half-Orcs count as orcs (PHB pp. 18 & 19 respectively)... I just wanted to back your statement up with some IRL experience that I had. At a major Dyvers con I had to actually appeal to a higher-level judge because the table judge said my Favored Enemy: Humanoid (orc) didn't apply to Half-Orcs. It was a very tight, orc-oriented mod where the bonuses were needed, and I was able to get the ruling to go in my favor. Since then, I haven't had any more troubles. (For those of you keeping score at home my ranger has +4 on Humans and +2 on Orcs)
King Kashue 10-26-04, 01:15 AM	I just wanted to back your statement up with some IRL experience that I had. At a major Dyvers con I had to actually appeal to a higher-level judge because the table judge said my Favored Enemy: Humanoid (orc) didn't apply to Half-Orcs. It was a very tight, orc-oriented mod where the bonuses were needed, and I was able to get the ruling to go in my favor. Since then, I haven't had any more troubles. (For those of you keeping score at home my ranger has +4 on Humans and +2 on Orcs) Man, I've never had a table judge not take an explicit PHB reference...I've had some that had wacky interpretations of some PHB stuff, but never anything quite that plain (the PHBs wording is "for ALL effects related to race")...