Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rerednaw 06-29-06, 11:56 AM	Okay, I am a bit stumped. I ran into this when I wasn't doing LG. Back then as a free-form DM I had more options. In LG, you don't. I was reading the encounters the party would have to face (no spoilers) and I thought something was odd. Sure enough I did some math. The NPC's wealth levels are off (high) and the point buys are way off (34 or higher). They do not have weaknesses and are on their home ground. The APL and EL does not modify or take this in account. I'm worried a TPK may be coming. I've already suggested bringing a riding dog(s) (the module said to do that), but I'm thinking this may not be enough. I'm debating on suggesting an 'adventurer's APL2 pack.' based upon the advice I got under New Herald DM Questions... (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=659475). I'm looking for and welcome to other suggestions/tips.
thorinXXX 06-29-06, 12:05 PM	Okay, I am a bit stumped. I ran into this when I wasn't doing LG. Back then as a free-form DM I had more options. In LG, you don't. I was reading the encounters the party would have to face (no spoilers) and I thought something was odd. Sure enough I did some math. The NPC's wealth levels are off (high) and the point buys are way off (34 or higher). They do not have weaknesses and are on their home ground. The APL and EL does not modify or take this in account. I'm worried a TPK may be coming. I've already suggested bringing a riding dog(s) (the module said to do that), but I'm thinking this may not be enough. I'm debating on suggesting an 'adventurer's APL2 pack.' based upon the advice I got under New Herald DM Questions... (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=659475). I'm looking for and welcome to other suggestions/tips. Fairly typical of LG. Much of that is beeing caught and eliminated by the new editor (at least for Core mods), but anything that was put out before he got his hands on it may have similar issues.
Lomiat 06-29-06, 12:11 PM	There are several things you can do: 1) As you mentioned, you can make suggestions to the players/PCs. 2) You can play the bad guys' tactics a little sloppy if it fits the mod at all. 3) Allow the PCs to use any items they find earlier in the mod. Or if it fits, have someone lend them some aid (items, equipment). Meanwhile, are you sure the bad guys are really 34 point buys? That seems odd. Remember that in LG, as an example, the Wood Elf gets +2 STR/+2DEX/-2CON/-2INT. If you forget racial modifiers, the math gets screwy. Also, there are level bumps at 4 and 8. And authors typically write the stats to account for any stat-boost items (rather than having you, as DM, apply the bonuses yourself). Is there a reason, in the story, for the NPCs to be over NPC wealth? Are they elites for a wealthy force? That might explain something. Did they just raid a tomb ahead of the PCs? Etc. One thing I've done from time to time (not sure if I've done it for one my LG mods) is define the NPC wealth as a group. X,Y, and Z adventure together all the time (bad guys), so when X is about to afford Stat Boost Item +2 but misses by 300 gp, Y gives up 300 gp for that APL, allowing X to have the item. Just some thoughts....
Rerednaw 06-29-06, 08:30 PM	There are several things you can do: 1) As you mentioned, you can make suggestions to the players/PCs. 2) You can play the bad guys' tactics a little sloppy if it fits the mod at all. 3) Allow the PCs to use any items they find earlier in the mod. Or if it fits, have someone lend them some aid (items, equipment). Meanwhile, are you sure the bad guys are really 34 point buys? That seems odd. Remember that in LG, as an example, the Wood Elf gets +2 STR/+2DEX/-2CON/-2INT. If you forget racial modifiers, the math gets screwy. Also, there are level bumps at 4 and 8. And authors typically write the stats to account for any stat-boost items (rather than having you, as DM, apply the bonuses yourself). Is there a reason, in the story, for the NPCs to be over NPC wealth? Are they elites for a wealthy force? That might explain something. Did they just raid a tomb ahead of the PCs? Etc. One thing I've done from time to time (not sure if I've done it for one my LG mods) is define the NPC wealth as a group. X,Y, and Z adventure together all the time (bad guys), so when X is about to afford Stat Boost Item +2 but misses by 300 gp, Y gives up 300 gp for that APL, allowing X to have the item. Just some thoughts.... Heh, the NPCs are human...and I took the bumps for levels into account. Still off. I may have to dumb down the NPCs a bit...hopefully the new players will figure it out. Cheers.
paigeoliver 06-30-06, 03:11 AM	One very minor thing you can do to help out when you are GMing and think the encounter is a bit off. That is play the NPCs like they actually care about their life and want to survive past this little encounter. For example, lets say the party was facing a group of 5 giants, the giants manage to kill 5 of the party members leaving one guy left, but there are STILL 3 giants left. Now lets say that one guy left still has a maximized magic missile memorized that he is pretty sure would take out one of the giants, but the other 3 would kill him for sure if he did it. Now, would that PC wizard try to get away? Or would he cast that last magic missile and then eat full round attacks from 3 hill giants? I'd bet he would run away. There is no reason your NPCs shouldn't do the same thing. Most character deaths I have actually seen have been done by bad guys that should have in all actuality run away (near dead, no chance of winning, most they could do is maybe get one guy). Another thing you MIGHT want to highly examine is any and ALL ambushes in modules. They break the rules more often than not, most particularly in the area of the spot and listen checks needed to spot the ambushers, which often would have required the ENTIRE GROUP of bad guys to roll a 20 on their hide. The RPGA guidelines say I am supposed to use the rules, but what is one SUPPOSED to do when the module itself blatantly violates the rules? I always operate under the assumption that the core rules override the author. Of course I also let people interrupt boxed text as well. :D Also, particularly important (especially for dangerous often overwhelming encounters), is to roll initiative SEPARATELY for each bad guy. Rolling one group iniative roll often completely unbalances the fight in favor of the bad guys or the players (depending on how you roll). I roll iniative for every guy, I do not think it slows down the game one bit. Honestly, most time in combat is spent waiting for slow players who can't decide what to do, followed very closely by anecdotes of other adventures, followed by people looking up spells that they could have had looked up before their turn came around. The GM moving his figures around ranks somewhere near the bottom of actually taking up time in combat.
Rerednaw 06-30-06, 11:04 AM	One very minor thing you can do to help out when you are GMing and think the encounter is a bit off. That is play the NPCs like they actually care about their life and want to survive past this little encounter. For example, lets say the party was facing a group of 5 giants, the giants manage to kill 5 of the party members leaving one guy left, but there are STILL 3 giants left. Now lets say that one guy left still has a maximized magic missile memorized that he is pretty sure would take out one of the giants, but the other 3 would kill him for sure if he did it. Now, would that PC wizard try to get away? Or would he cast that last magic missile and then eat full round attacks from 3 hill giants? I'd bet he would run away. There is no reason your NPCs shouldn't do the same thing. Most character deaths I have actually seen have been done by bad guys that should have in all actuality run away (near dead, no chance of winning, most they could do is maybe get one guy). Another thing you MIGHT want to highly examine is any and ALL ambushes in modules. They break the rules more often than not, most particularly in the area of the spot and listen checks needed to spot the ambushers, which often would have required the ENTIRE GROUP of bad guys to roll a 20 on their hide. The RPGA guidelines say I am supposed to use the rules, but what is one SUPPOSED to do when the module itself blatantly violates the rules? I always operate under the assumption that the core rules override the author. Of course I also let people interrupt boxed text as well. :D Also, particularly important (especially for dangerous often overwhelming encounters), is to roll initiative SEPARATELY for each bad guy. Rolling one group iniative roll often completely unbalances the fight in favor of the bad guys or the players (depending on how you roll). I roll iniative for every guy, I do not think it slows down the game one bit. Honestly, most time in combat is spent waiting for slow players who can't decide what to do, followed very closely by anecdotes of other adventures, followed by people looking up spells that they could have had looked up before their turn came around. The GM moving his figures around ranks somewhere near the bottom of actually taking up time in combat. Yeah I am 'editing' the module as I go. Hit points are off, characteristics are off, AC is off, the NPC is min-maxed and takes advantage of round-offs. (For example, the a template may be LA+2, but when it is an NPC the adjustment is +0) basically the party will be fighting two EL 4 above their own, right after each other. Is that a formula for fun? I mean I enjoy challenges...but wow. As to rolling, I generally roll individually, although the DMG mentions that increasing randomness usually hurts the players rather than helps. If the situation turns into mass mobs, then I usually let bosses get their own init, minions get init based on blocks. Otherwise one combat can eat up most of the 4 hours time frame for the mod. Well I hope it goes well tomorrow. Cheers.
Howie23 06-30-06, 03:03 PM	Yeah I am 'editing' the module as I go. Hit points are off, characteristics are off, AC is off, the NPC is min-maxed and takes advantage of round-offs. (For example, the a template may be LA+2, but when it is an NPC the adjustment is +0) basically the party will be fighting two EL 4 above their own, right after each other. "GMs are responsible for delivering fair and impartial rulings while maintaining a fun experience that is true to the published or prepared adventure." (RPGA General Rules, p. 4) If there is a typo, that's one thing. You are otherwise expected to run the statblocks as written and not edit them. For example, you say HP are off...likely you think they are two high. NPC and monster HP in LG are 75% of max dice plus the constant value. So, 4th level fighter with 14 con (4d10+8) should have 38 hp as an NPC in LG. You may see some lower HP (often 75% of max) in year 5 mods, but year 6 seems to be pretty consistent. Year six also seems to be returning to 25 point builds, where in year five you might see extreme builds without a CR bump. This was sometimes defended due to the 28 point PC build. Remember, in RPGA, you aren't the DM. You are running the mod on behalf of the DMs. David
solbergb 06-30-06, 04:17 PM	There are three things you might see in a statblock. 1. Actual obvious typos. Like saves copied/pasted from a higher or lower APL version of the same monster, or a waraxe doing 1d100 instead of 1d10. Just fix those on your notes and move on. 2. Actual rules violations. A guy with improved crit at level 8 who has not had a feat since level 6. These often have to do with scaling the guy from a higher level down to a lower level and not thinking about how he got that way. In those cases, make the smallest change you can possibly do to make it legal (which can be - just don't use the restricted spell in his statblocks during the combat, or in the case of something like improved crit which is always on, give him a legal feat that adds to damage slightly) The Circle recommends "don't use it if it offends you" but also recommends you run the statblocks as written, illegal or not because they were "playtested that way". In actual fact, it is often the final edit that introduces these things, when you check with the author, so you won't be sanctioned for a cosmetic change to a NPC. The main thing is, either run it as written or run it with the smallest change possible. 3. Weird things that don't actually merit an entire CR bump. (big point buys on character-enemies, or excessive equipment - the point buys often mitigate weak equipment, or either might be tied to bad tactics or tactical situation, or it could be a flat out mistake but isn't worth fussing over). Just run it as written, it won't change the outcome. 4. Anything else that seems odd and vastly changes the CR (templates on stuff that should not be legal to have that template, animals with iterative attacks on their natural weapons, templates applied incorrectly, too many monsters for the CR - caculation just in errror, flat out impossible tactics etc). An example of impossible tactics is a dread wraith being out of "detect evil/undead" range who can detect a party and spring attack in and out of detect range. Can't be done, its lifesense has the same limits as blindsense (which doesn't work through solid objects) and a dread wraith can't go deeper in a solid object than its width in any event. Here you can be guaranteed to have table variation, as some judges run it blindly as written and others attempt to do something with the encounter that is actully legal. Likewise (and this happened in a Y4 mod) there is no way for an advanced hell hound to get an iterative bite attack in 3.5 D&D, and with no explanation it had one (getting 3-4 attacks instead of 1, and they were quite dangerous attacks). Case #4 is the most problematic. The only kind that ever get errattad in my experience are the ones where they put the wrong number of monsters in a given APL range, and you can bet that about half the LG judges will run it as written. (of those half, many are running it "cold" and have not thought it through. The rest just aren't comfortable changing anything about a module). My approach is to try to get the encounter to work somehow within the rules of D&D. If it is not a flat-out CR error (which can get erattad - contact the author and circle rep to find out what they intend to do), there is still often a lot you can do. In my wraith example, run the thing with full dread wraith nastiness, but don't assume it can detect the party unless they can detect it. It will do its best to surprise/spring attack the party but it might fail (just like the brown bears might fail to sneak up on the ranger with maxed spot/listen and favored enemy animals). In the hell hound example, ignore the iterative attacks - they just aren't legal, playtested that way or not. In the case of a misapplied template, get the template out, do the math yourself and run it with the template applied properly (but do use the hitpoints in the module, hitpoints are not always cookie-cutter standard). In the case of an illegal template, well, be prepared for rolled eyes on the parts of your players but if the CR is ok, you should probably run it anyway rather than make a different drastic change. All of this is why module preparation is essential. It is amazingly hard to actually get statblocks right through the whole editing process. I helped playtest a metaregional involving classed humans as the main enemies and me and another guy went over the statblocks for a week with the author, hammering out all the bugs (I *think* we got them all). I wrote a minimission with just four classed humans and it was months and many iterations and playtestes before I got all the kinks out. It is amazing how scaling the levels up and down and copy/paste and just the mind-numbing staring at the numbers blinds you to errors. A judge who has prepped the mod can usually get the author intent, and then fix up the statblocks for the APL he's gonna be running, checking for typos and red-flagging anything weird. Then after he's done his best to figure out intent, come up with a strategy to run any problem encounter.
solbergb 06-30-06, 04:32 PM	Now some more general things. Two EL=APL+2 encounters in a row isn't uncommon in LG. I pretty much assume most modules will have three EL=APL+3 encounters in them, sometimes all in one day. It is usually not quite that bad, but remember 5-6 person parties are much more powerful than the 4 person iconic, and most LG parties can actually handle those odds without deaths. EL+4-5 are very rare, and are usually an error. I've seen maybe one intentional one in a non-interactive in three years. ==================== LA should be ignored. LA = "how useful would this be on a PC". Ie, the ability to detect thoughts at will is fantastically useful on a PC but isn't as useful on a bad guy whose entire career is one combat encounter. CR bump should be considered. CR= "how useful would the racial/template abilities be on a monster in one encounter" It sounds like the author did that part right - a LA+2/CR+0 monster adds nothing to the EL of the encounter beyond its class levels. ============== Bad guys should always be played to their motivations, and yes this can include surrender or flight if they are getting creamed. Barring an assassination attempt, most monsters aren't going to vindictively kill a downed PC rather than try to win the fight unless they have some kind of realistic motivation to do so. An example of a good motivation for this would be a priest of hextor whose minions have been killed, where escape is impossible just wants to kill that darn paladin of Hieroneous who gave him so much trouble before he's sent to face his god on Acheron by the rest of the party. More commonly, you are looking at bandits whose motivation is wealth, or hungry monsters who just want a meal but won't stop to eat if other folks are zapping and poking them, or someone who has a master plan but would rather escape with his skin if he fails, or folks who would rather face the justice system than risk further combat or whatever. Even demons/devils are more likely to try to bargain their way out of a hopeless situation than just try to kill a PC and then die (but they might use the vulnerable PC as a bargaining chip). And even then, since they can teleport, they'd only bother bargaining if teleportation was prevented somehow. (this depends on their motivations and orders of course - if Orcus says they're to try to kill a PC, they're not gonna bargain or run). Constructs and mindless undead and vermin are mindless, play them as such. The first two have programming that should dictate their behavior, the last has instinct. If it isn't covered in the mod, make it up but stay consistent. If the construct always stands up when tripped before doing anything else, do that. If it always fights prone until nobody is near it, do that. Don't mix it up. ===================================== Ambush tactics are the PLAN of the enemy. Whether they SUCCEED is always based on their abilities vs that of the PC's. Some judges treat boxtext as a movie, rather than as the "read or paraprhase" guideline it actually is. They treat tactics as something that will happen no matter what PC's do. Both are explicitly not how things are supposed to be, by both author guidelines and the boilerplate on every module. But to use the rules, you have to know the rules, you need a plan if the encoutner is larger than your battlemap and you need to have thought through the enemy motivations and capabilities before the PC's mess it up with all their tricks. So...know the hide/move silent of the folks ambushing. I use take 10, it makes the math easier and it is what you get if you are trying to be careful, as ambushers would be. The rules are pretty simple - if a PC makes the roll by more than the worst hide/move silent then he'll notice them at a distance of 10' per amount he made the roll by. If that distance is larger than the charge range (or "open fire" range) of the bad guys, the PC won't be surprised. You can't hide at all without cover or concealment, so sometimes terrain will be more important than hide/spot checks. Remember that if the bad guys prebuff, verbal components have a listen check of +0 to hear (+1 per 10' distance, +10 if a door is in the way etc). More than one ambush was blown by excessive spellcasting of short duration spells. If the party has a scout, you have to know the sensory capabilities of the bad guys (their spot/listen rolls, any weird senses). I tend to put that in my own statblocks for convenience in case of invisibility, fog, etc that can happen anywhere, but it is especially important in a situation where a PC might spot the ambush forming if he's scouting ahead and is both alert and stealthy.
solbergb 06-30-06, 07:50 PM	On initiatives...as a rule of thumb, I don't want more initiatives on the monster side than there are PC's. Usually combats flow most smoothly with 2-4 monster inits. You don't want everyone on the same init, unless they're all delaying for the lowest init to work together somehow. you do want your leaders to be distinct from the mooks. It makes for better roleplay, aside from practical considerations. Large groups of similar monsters should be broken into smaller groups, as long as you don't have too many inits in the round. Most LG encounters feature from 1-8 monsters, so grouping your bad guys in twos or fours works pretty well. The consequence of clustering all on one init is that the battle swings hugely on that one die roll. With scattered initiatives, luck has to swing much farther for or against the bad guys to have them all go before or all after the PC's. The consequence of scattering too many inits is you slow down the initial rounds of combat a lot, and also if the DM is going more than once for each player move, it will seem like a long time before a player gets to move again and he might lose interest (perceptions and reality = not the same thing).
solbergb 06-30-06, 08:02 PM	Of course I also let people interrupt boxed text as well. :D . I'm mildly notorious in my area for always letting the players attack the box text. I've had a rooftop chase in Greyhawk from a box-text assassin-killing-npc encounter where it ended when it became clear TO THE PC's that the NPC was going to get away clean. Doing so though, required help from a NPC that hired the assassin, which might have been a minor clue had someone followed it up. In another mod, a rather famous NPC showed up and interacted with the PC's. I spent a lot of time thinking about how he'd respond to either disrespect or to a really foolish PC actually attacking him. That preparation payed off in play - by requesting the high level table I got one PC that just couldn't resist making a comment that let the NPC show off a little, but all in fun. The interaction was so successful that three players stayed behind after the game, risking missing dinner for their next round to roleplay more with the NPC. In a third, I hid the "railroad" from the players (characters get plot token, overwhelming force shows up to take it away - friendly overwhelming force, but still...module says "they will succeed, no matter what PC's do"....bad writing but....). I set up that encounter so the characters were begging to give the item away, just by showing onscreen the consequences of keeping it (the overwhelming force was mopping up a giant ambush force that was going to take it from the PC's....said ambush force being a larger version of an earlier "test the PC's strength" encounter that was written into the mod). In a fourth, PC's did not attack one encounter at all, but instead the rogue snuck in, searched the office while the guy was sleeping at his desk, disabled his signal device and then they followed the guy home after his shift, dominated him, interrogated him. The players were like "Are we messing you up with this?" and I'm just saying "No, that's fine. It doesn't matter how you get the information, this approach works too. Please keep being creative." I let my players know that they will never be locked into place, unable to react to events at my table. However actions will have consequences. To handle that right though...you gotta prep the mod. And you gotta think about the boxtext situations and what you'll do in a general sense if PC's go off the script. (that assassin encounter - I *know* players hate that kind of scene, and I happened to be prepping another mod with a real assassin encounter, so I stole the statblock from the apl appropriate level and just used it as a pure "run away" scene...which the PC's could only chase if they actually made the rolls to even spot the assassin during the sniping in the first place). The flipside is that allowing boxtext interruption can throw off the pace of the module if you are tight for time. Again, I usually run fast because of excessive preparation, but if my watch says that we won't finish if we don't start moving along, I might ask the players if it is ok to just move things along. Some judges use the "and everyone you question keeps talking about herrings of an unusual crimson color" to let players know they've hit a dead end and to stop wasting time on it. I like letting players do what they want, but in a con situation that has to be balanced against the pace of the module vs the time you have. One nice thing about a cakewalked combat encounter is suddenly you can have more time for roleplay and chewing on the scenery.
Rerednaw 07-01-06, 11:31 AM	Hey lots of responses. Thanks all for the advice and input. I politely disagree with a one thing. Even if the CR adjustment is +0, I do think that adding things like energy resistance and spell resistance, immunities, etc... does significantly impact an encounter. I did not know that NPC HP were 75% before stat adjustments. Dang, too bad players don't get that edge. (Well mages do, but then they are nice and squishy.) What is the LG justification for that? (I've always been of the view that if the players can get away with it, the DM can as well...and vice versa with a few exceptions.) I could see maybe the normal 50% hp for iconic 4 players...and then perhaps 75% instead of simply adding mobs for 6 players...I was going to leave the hp alone I was commenting I thought it was high. Thanks again.
BEldred74 07-01-06, 02:16 PM	I strongly recommend that people run LG adventures AS WRITTEN. For one, it's what the Circle has asked us to do. (the one exception I have heard was the hellhound having iterative bite attacks...that's obviously wrong and illegal.) For two, sometimes in LG things are different than the Core rules or you little home campaigns. As the aforementioned 75% hit point rule demonstrates. For three....when you look at a stat block and see "mistakes" or "things wrong'...do you ever think that YOU could be the one who is wrong? Stat blocks are often the most difficult part of an adventure. I often have authors tell me "My stat blocks are 100% correct". And of course they aren't. I receive emails from people sometimes saying "XX in stat block Y is incorrect". And when I point out to them why XX is that way, they discover they were wrong. I can't speak for Core adventures or other regions, but in MY region - I spend about a week checking stat blocks for submitted adventures. I check each and every stat block 3 times. I do the blocks manually, I use a program I have set up to be virtually mistake free, I compare the two and carefully research any disagreements between the two, and then I go through it as a DM would to see any flaws from another point of view. I will give my guarantee when a draft from my region goes to HQ, the stats will be 100% correct. My point after all this is really a simple one. In LG, you are not the DM or the author (usually) - you are the judge. You act out the parts and you enforce the rules of the game and you tell the story the (author, triad, & circle) has told you to tell. :) ~Beverly Eldred Yeomanry Triad POC p.s. And someone mentioned point buys on abilities? If the authors are correctly following the NPC and monster rules they are using the elite array, not a point buy system. (I believe the elite array is roughly equivalent to a 25 point buy, but it's not the same when you use a point buy because you can jack one stat way up, etc.)
Samwise 07-01-06, 03:55 PM	I politely disagree with a one thing. Even if the CR adjustment is +0, I do think that adding things like energy resistance and spell resistance, immunities, etc... does significantly impact an encounter. You aren't the only one. I regularly advise changing critters with DR for low APLs. I did not know that NPC HP were 75% before stat adjustments. Dang, too bad players don't get that edge. (Well mages do, but then they are nice and squishy.) What is the LG justification for that? (I've always been of the view that if the players can get away with it, the DM can as well...and vice versa with a few exceptions.) It is a combination of 6 player tables and the massive player options available. (And it is 75% of max including all adjustments for stats and the like. The only things that get added completely are bonus hp from buff spells.) Oh, and something people seem to constantly forget about incorporeal creatures: They can go out of sight, underground or in a wall, and sense any creature adjacent to their position. Using this, they can then spring attack out of the ground and then back into the ground. This isn't lifesense, it is a "sense" aspect of the incorporeal type. So don't assume that incorporeal creatures can only detect PCs if they can be detected. It is possible to hide in this manner.
Howie23 07-01-06, 07:18 PM	(And it is 75% of max including all adjustments for stats and the like. The only things that get added completely are bonus hp from buff spells.) It was that way. It no longer is in year six. David
Samwise 07-01-06, 07:37 PM	DOH! It is changed on the template, I looked at the guidelines, which need another updating. :D (And I've only been checking text, we've got a special stat block reviewer now. Not that I mind, stat blocks are evil things. Evil I say!)
JohnduBois 07-01-06, 10:43 PM	DOH! It is changed on the template, I looked at the guidelines, which need another updating. :D (And I've only been checking text, we've got a special stat block reviewer now. Not that I mind, stat blocks are evil things. Evil I say!) Is there somewhere I can find the updated templates/guidelines? I'm making my final self-checks before I send a regional adventure in and I'd like to not get edited on silly things I should have known (God knows I'm already going to have that happen on my stat blocks). John
Samwise 07-02-06, 12:51 AM	As far as I know, whoever is having you write the adventure should be providing you with the updated templates. (Since I am not the person who accepts the proposals for core adventures, I am not the one who provides the Core template. I just get the adventure after the author has submitted it with the proper template.) So for a regional, I expect you should be asking the Triad member in charge of adventures for the current template and guidelines.
JamesMaissen 07-02-06, 11:36 AM	As far as I know, whoever is having you write the adventure should be providing you with the updated templates. (Since I am not the person who accepts the proposals for core adventures, I am not the one who provides the Core template. I just get the adventure after the author has submitted it with the proper template.) So for a regional, I expect you should be asking the Triad member in charge of adventures for the current template and guidelines. Hey Sam, Thought while I saw you here posting on these things I'd make two comment/questions that I've had for awhile that maybe you could answer/etc: 1st: Module Templates seem out of date or to have missed things. The recent ones I see have atleast 1 error in them (it says to add the level adjustments of different CR'd animals brought along separately which was changed 2 LGCSs ago) and 1 ambigous (atleast to some of our judges here) where it says the part about APL fractions rounding up (is it from the half point or rounding up period ie is 3.2 rounding to 3 or to 4 for example). 2nd: Is there a possibility of someone coming up with a different and more easily read/checked stat block? The things are hard to read and take a hell of a time to deconstruct to see if they are correct. They are compactified for little reason.. as I say in my Math classes: kill another tree and get it right. Thanks, James
Samwise 07-02-06, 12:27 PM	Bearing in mind that I only speak for what is done with the Core template: 1. I'll refer the animal issue to Creighton. For rounding, it should say round to the nearest whole number. (In fact, I believe Steve Conforti posted on that very recently.) 2. A more thorough stat block submission template was created that requires all work to be shown. That is, indicate what level each feat is gained at, what the total BAB from each class is, what ranks and modifiers apply for each skill, provides for "power up suites," and so forth. As this was the most recent change, it is quite likely that not everyone has this version of the template. The campaign staff knows about the difficulties and issues with the stat blocks, and want to solve them at the source. While I can't promise perfection, I think we are managing to improve things, and I expect it to continue. Sam Weiss Core Reviewer (for anyone who didn't know)
SteveMND 07-02-06, 06:12 PM	2. A more thorough stat block submission template was created that requires all work to be shown. That is, indicate what level each feat is gained at, what the total BAB from each class is, what ranks and modifiers apply for each skill, provides for "power up suites," and so forth. Having run one of the more recent Core mods this past weekend that included barbarians raging and other effects which change stats, I can say it was very helpful to have the "power-up" suites listed as well. Very nice! If I had one suggestion, it would be that the same module had all these different very well-designed statblocks for a whole bunch of NPCs/monsters, but for one isolated creature, they instead referred you back to the Monster Manual. Not a big deal, but it would have been nice to have had the same kind of stat block for that creature in the appendix as well, just to streamline things for the judge there. :)
Samwise 07-02-06, 08:33 PM	Barring a very significant change, such stat blocks won't be printed. Stat blocks all too often wind up being an overwhelming part of the adventure in terms of bulk, and anytime we can just say "See Monster Manual page xxx" means even less that has to be printed out. Given how many people "comment" about adventure size, I don't think there will be any desire to add more, even if the format is more familiar to people.
solbergb 07-05-06, 02:47 PM	1. I think that a statblock format for adventure submissions that shows the work is an extraordinarily good idea. It makes review much easier, and the mistakes are less likely to be missed. I agree with Samwise that the expanded format probably shouldn't be in the final version, but it is nice to know it will be available in the review process. It is MUCH easier on judges when the statblocks don't contain obvious errors, causing the judge to lose faith in the whole thing and have to reverse-engineer everything by hand. 2. Incoporeals can of course hide in solid objects and not be detected until their lifesense picks up humans. Except for dread wraiths though, that lifesense is limited to 5', and the dread wraith lifesense still doesn't go through full cover (it is limited like blindsense) although the assumption is that any surface the dread wraith is in doesn't "count" for blocking it. Most importantly, a dread wraith (or other incoporeal" cant' be behind "3' of solid stone" that blocks Detect Evil and Detect Undead spells and still detect the party. Furthermore it can only be behind "3' of solid stone" if there is an open space behind the stone....incorporeals can't go "deeper" into solid objects than their own width. Incorporeals are complicated, and author tactics don't always take all the rules into account when setting up the encounter. Run it as close to the tactics as you can, but don't break the encoutner rules. 95% of the time, incorporeals will pop out and get a surprise round, then attack again and 5' step back into the solid object due to very high init mods before the party moves. Most parties just blunder into most encounters without thinking, and often they don't have a clue that they're entering an area where incorporeals might lurk. The other 5% of the time, when the party is actually running the right detect spells and/or understands what it means when all their animals bolt or refuse to advance, don't take away the benefits of their superior play by violating the rules. That's all I ask. The most commonly ignored limit on incorporeals is the "can't go through a solid object thicker than their width" rule. It is actually possible to trap a dread wraith underground that has been turned, for example, and equally possible for PC's with power attack and adamantine weapons to carve away enough of the rock protecting them to get chances to attack by other party members (with improved cover perhaps) before the turn wears off and before the wraith can reacty by burrowing deeper. Not easy...but possible.
Samwise 07-05-06, 03:22 PM	2. Incoporeals can of course hide in solid objects and not be detected until their lifesense picks up humans. Not their lifesense. Their incorpeal sense. (Although it isn't called that.) MM page 310, Incorporeal, third paragraph: "An incoporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but remain adjacent to the object's exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. I can sense the prsence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. (And more.)" However, since all the creature has to do is know the square the target is in, it can start inside the object, pop out for a spring attack against something started adjacent to it, and pop back in. There is no rules breaking with that. You are right, there are a ton of ways to play that wrong. I constantly have to double check that I'm not taking 3 actions per turn when using sneaky incorporeals, especially on surprise rounds. (No, they can't move to see you, then spring attack. Bad DM!) But they can evade tons of detection spells (You are constantly moving at half speed to maintain concentration, right? And recasting the spell every 10 minutes/level?), and not every animal is affected by their aura (paladin mounts and familiars to start), so that isn't always an issue. (And yes, I have had several encounters play out where the animals refused to advance, and it was on the PCs to figure out why.) Yes, the encounters are difficult. And often underwritten "default" tactics, both in the core rules and adventures, confuse the issue further, but it is very easy for incorporeal undead to bounce PCs with abandon. the simplest solution is to ready encounters, but players can forget that once the draining has begun, and get caught up complaining about the "unfair" or improperly run encounter.
solbergb 07-05-06, 07:38 PM	Yeah...but the incorporeal sense or whatever you call it still can't be used if they aren't "adjascent" which means "I am in stone not 3' deep and can be detected." Tensers disks do wonders to help folks move and concentrate, as can mounts or even friendly BDF's carrying the undead-detector. Paladins, Holy Inquisitors and Sac Exorcists don't run out of detects. But usually incorporeals are only spotted via animal reactions or because "Gee, I'm entering the long-lost Crypt of the Elder Doom Wizards, maybe we should be detecting evil here!")
Samwise 07-05-06, 08:01 PM	Yeah...but the incorporeal sense or whatever you call it still can't be used if they aren't "adjascent" which means "I am in stone not 3' deep and can be detected." Given adjacent is a 5' square, that is rather subjective. Tensers disks do wonders to help folks move and concentrate, as can mounts or even friendly BDF's carrying the undead-detector. Paladins, Holy Inquisitors and Sac Exorcists don't run out of detects. But usually incorporeals are only spotted via animal reactions or because "Gee, I'm entering the long-lost Crypt of the Elder Doom Wizards, maybe we should be detecting evil here!") When I see a floating disk or mount used for that, I'll accept it. I would not consider a BDF carrying someone to be suitable though, even riding on the shoulders. And I'd never have them waiting right at the entrance. They wait just past the first door so you can't detect them until you walk through it. They might be dead, but the necromancer that placed them there isn't stupid. (Well, other than being stupid enough to be the villain in an LG adventure. :P )
solbergb 07-06-06, 03:06 PM	That's why you scan the room after you open the door but before you enter :) They can attack of course, but only the front rank, which is usually not as vulnerable to con drain fort saves, str damage extinction and often even level drain (cause your squishie fighters tend not to take point). Doors and walls though are good. One reason Heart of Nightfang Spire was such a pain was an abundance of doors, rooms and walls and floors and ceilings, all the right size for incorporeal shenanigans and also perforated with convenient narrow holes for "smoked" vampires to retreat through. Curious as to why a BDF carrying another PC would cause you to say it would not work. A mount or a BDF would require a concentration check of some kind, and you're free to set it higher in the BDF case, but I can't see why riding piggyback or being carried in someone else's arms would be more distracting than galloping on a horse. It isn't "free". You are tying up a rather precious resource "(hands free)" to do so. My ruling is that PC's can carry other PC's but unless there is a size difference, it takes both of their hands (no shield, no weapons, no arrow deflection, no somatic spellcasting). With size differences there are options for the rider to "balance" on shoulders or even head (difficult) or to be carried in one hand, or to hang on the belt perhaps. No matter what though, someone needs to either have spent skill points to do something weird, like balance (or land on feet after being dropped) or use move actions plus two hands to hang on, or some other cost to the tactic. I prefer to allow, but have consequences, to anything that could reasonably be done. People carry other people in real life. Mothers and their young children carried in arms, on hip, on back, Kids on piggyback, fireman carry, brides through thresholds. At one convention an 8 year old child made a game out of hanging off my arm and having me swing her around. She was light enough and I was strong enough to be only moderately encumbered, with one of my hands used and two of hers used. One size difference. If I was stronger or her lighter, it wouldnt' even have "encumbered" me. Skilled acrobats do in fact balance on each others shoulders and do rather amazing things. PC's can be in any of those categories. What I do disallow is very extended concentration on a spell - it is at least as strenuous as hustling if you're moving, riding or being carried, as walking if you are being "floated" somehow (army of unseen servants, tenser disk, flying carpet) and I use the usual rules. Usually players self-police it at much lower times than I'd likely allow. Another option would be to make concentration harder as time passes.
solbergb 07-06-06, 03:08 PM	Given adjacent is a 5' square, that is rather subjective. Not really. Even squeezing they can't reduce their size below 2.5 feet, which still means they get detected. There isn't any need to cheese incorporeals. They're plenty dangerous just as they are, with their advantages AND their limitations.
Samwise 07-06-06, 03:35 PM	That's why you scan the room after you open the door but before you enter :) You'd be amazed at what people forget to do. Or, for some reason, expect you to assume they do without any input from them. Curious as to why a BDF carrying another PC would cause you to say it would not work. A mount or a BDF would require a concentration check of some kind, and you're free to set it higher in the BDF case, but I can't see why riding piggyback or being carried in someone else's arms would be more distracting than galloping on a horse. It isn't "free". You are tying up a rather precious resource "(hands free)" to do so. My ruling is that PC's can carry other PC's but unless there is a size difference, it takes both of their hands (no shield, no weapons, no arrow deflection, no somatic spellcasting). No, that's all I meant. But I'm sure we both know people who would throw 8 kinds of fit if you even suggested such restrictions. After all, there is no rule that requires you to make a concentration check if riding piggyback, or that says it takes both hands to carry someone like that. In which case I reserve the right to say that since there is no rule for using a person as a mount it simply can't be done, or you need an exotic saddle to "ride" another PC, or whatever else is needed. Not really. Even squeezing they can't reduce their size below 2.5 feet, which still means they get detected. But if they are large, they can squeeze on down to 6 feet. :cool: There isn't any need to cheese incorporeals. They're plenty dangerous just as they are, with their advantages AND their limitations. I agree. Again, as with carrying, my main point is to show that 1) they can hide and spring attack from inside the ground, and 2) with all the cheeses out there for PCs, expect a few to exist for the bad guys. As noted, they do have limitations and can be dealt with, but trying to out-cheese the DM isn't the best method for doing so.
JamesMaissen 07-06-06, 06:26 PM	Given adjacent is a 5' square, that is rather subjective. I disagree with this. Adjacent to the exterior really should be just that.. adjacent. If they squeeze down then they are smaller and take up less space thus could fit in a smaller object but would still need to be adjacent to the exterior. The idea seems to be that they are just below the surface and cannot delve farther. I don't think anyone should let a tiny incorporeal elect to be 2 1/2 feet away from the exterior wall they are inside, right? But the worst abuse of incorporeals I think isn't this, but rather that they seem to be mindlinked when run by many judges as what one knows they all seem to know. Sure an incorporeal inside an object can sense a life form next to the exterior, but that doesn't mean all of it's friends also sense that at the same time. So if that incorporeal emerges as a surprise attack (taking it's concealment miss chance), how do it's compatriots know there's a fight? At best only those that could have sensed a life at the same time would know of anyone entering the room, but how can they coordinate an attack to all surprise a party at once? -James
solbergb 07-07-06, 04:53 PM	How do they coordinate? Well, one makes noise. Incorporeals can make noise if they want to. They might not all be perfectly placed though. Usually what you want is to cluster them, so they'll all be within 5' of the first guy detected. The guys who are in the "back" of the cluster refrain from attacking till the guy in "Front" gives the signal. I have found that 5' stepping out and not taking the miss chances more deadly than staying in the ground, since they can usually 5' step back into the ground after winning initiative and attacking in round 1. This tactic was drilled into me by being on the wrong end of it in Nightfang Spire, over and over. Of course there, the boss monster had special scrying and communication abilites, so we got reamed by coordinated attacks more often than would happen in LG. You are right though, many judges don't think about such things.