Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pedr 08-21-06, 09:47 AM	I know that everyone is very busy at the moment and there are probably unforseen and unavoidable delays at HQ, but it would be very very useful for those of us planning local LG groups to have a little bit of information about the ETA for Red Hand of Doom. It's getting to the point in the year where significant decisions have to be made about spending TUs, and this uncertaintly makes it difficult to know what games to run, with people unsure whether to spend TUs they were planning to use for RHoD or not, or whether it's worth making particular decisions to get characters up to the right level to start it. Is it still likely to be available to play before the end of the year? Is there any way we can get a definitive answer on when it's likely to retire? These are things which it would be very very useful to know pretty soon!
Marcia_S 08-28-06, 12:41 PM	That is a VERY good question. Do we at least know what APL it will be for? I'd like to start getting the group prepared for it as soon as possible, as it will take a considerable commitment from both me and the players. Since it's rumored to be a 52 TU mod, it would be better (maybe even necessary) to split it over two years. Anyone? Hello? Anyone there? Marcia Schoonover Austin, TX
DeimosGandymede 08-28-06, 12:59 PM	I know Verbobonc already laid out the TU costs on it, which they got direct from the circle. www.verbobonc.net Scroll down and you will see it near mid page in the center. 51 TUs for all the parts combined. Rockin! -MW-
Marcia_S 08-28-06, 01:07 PM	Thanks, I found it. It's a bit dated, but it's better than nothing.
DerekSTheRed 08-28-06, 09:32 PM	At this point I hope the Circle doesn't release the RHoD until January of next year. That way we'll have two full years before it retires. Then there won't be such a rush to play the first part this year. Derek
clik_ml 08-29-06, 02:55 AM	Or just let it run 3 years and release it whenever. It's not like letting it run a few extra months is going to upset anything. I think it's a special enough case that arbitrary deadlines don't have to be so... arbitrary.
Madfox11 08-29-06, 03:17 AM	Red Hed of Doom is a 51 TU adventure, but it is divided in 5 parts that have to played in order, but not necessarily in one go. The exact date it will premier is not yet certain, although it probably will be in September or October (we are discussing it right as I type this). It retires at the end of 2007. Note that we are aware that is a bit early, but the desicion has been made and it cannot be changed. Pieter Sleijpen RPGA Living Greyhawk Circle Member
paigeoliver 08-29-06, 07:59 AM	The "short" time the module will be available doesn't bother me in the slightest, since my group will probably attack the thing the minute it is available. But is there some reason that the decision cannot be changed? My suggestion? Premiere it the minute it is ready. There is absolutely no reason why completed material that won't be unveiled at special events should be sat on at all. Red Hed of Doom is a 51 TU adventure, but it is divided in 5 parts that have to played in order, but not necessarily in one go. The exact date it will premier is not yet certain, although it probably will be in September or October (we are discussing it right as I type this). It retires at the end of 2007. Note that we are aware that is a bit early, but the desicion has been made and it cannot be changed. Pieter Sleijpen RPGA Living Greyhawk Circle Member
DerekSTheRed 08-29-06, 08:32 AM	The problem is there are Meta-Orgs out there that require more than one annual TU. If a player has one character in that APL range and he's in one of the above Meta-Orgs, then he either has to play some of the mod this year, play it all next year and leave the Meta-Org, or play some but not all of the mod next year and stay in the Meta-Org. That's why the original poster asked if it was going to be available at the end of the year. He probably wants to save enough TU's to play the first part this year. I was one of the posters on the Yahoo Group lobbying for an extended play period and a retirement date sometime in 2008 for this module alone. Chris Tulach of the Circle posted back saying they would consider it. That's the last anyone's posted on it since the moderators won't let us beat a dead horse (for good reason). My advice to the original poster is to expect the thing to come out this year sometime and to save the TU's until you hear otherwise. Derek EDIT: Didn't see the Circle member's posting when I wrote this.
pedr 08-29-06, 12:22 PM	Pieter, thank you for the information, even if it is not what we wanted to hear. This makes it more important that we can get things started this year, so I have one other thing which I'd like formally clarified: As RHoD is split up into five different parts, can you confirm that someone can play Part 1 then DM Part 1 before they've played Part 2 without disqualifying themself or overly 'spoilering' themself for the following parts? Thanks!
trollbill 08-29-06, 12:58 PM	The "short" time the module will be available doesn't bother me in the slightest, since my group will probably attack the thing the minute it is available. But is there some reason that the decision cannot be changed? That may not be a problem for you, but it is for relative newbs to LG. We only started our local LG group in May of this year. We started with half-a-dozen people and now have over triple that amount. We play 2-3 mods every game day (once a month) at 2-3 tables each and we are still growing. About half have reached 3rd level and are maybe half-way to 4th. They will be very hard pressed to reach APL6 by the end of the year. Many were excited when they heard they would be able to play in RoD. They will be very disappointed if they can't.
Ariante 08-29-06, 03:05 PM	That may not be a problem for you, but it is for relative newbs to LG. We only started our local LG group in May of this year. We started with half-a-dozen people and now have over triple that amount. We play 2-3 mods every game day (once a month) at 2-3 tables each and we are still growing. About half have reached 3rd level and are maybe half-way to 4th. They will be very hard pressed to reach APL6 by the end of the year. Many were excited when they heard they would be able to play in RoD. They will be very disappointed if they can't. Note that Fane of the Drow is APL4, is available right now, and will give you 3,5 mods worth of xp towards L6. By all acounts it can be played in 1 day (expect 10-12 hours of gaming). No idea if that's enough, but it helps :) Note also that if it's gaming opportunities you lack (as in, a chance to physically get together), you can also play Cores online (check the OnlineGameDays yahoo group for more info). That would give you more opportunities to play, as well as producing more DMs for the people who can not play online :)
trollbill 08-29-06, 05:01 PM	Note that Fane of the Drow is APL4, is available right now, and will give you 3,5 mods worth of xp towards L6. By all acounts it can be played in 1 day (expect 10-12 hours of gaming). No idea if that's enough, but it helps :) Note also that if it's gaming opportunities you lack (as in, a chance to physically get together), you can also play Cores online (check the OnlineGameDays yahoo group for more info). That would give you more opportunities to play, as well as producing more DMs for the people who can not play online :) We are planning on doing Fane in October and I will be going to a 3-day gaming con after that, and maybe a second later this year. Plus I have been looking into playing online. So 'I' (and a few others) probably won't have a problem. But the rest of the group probably will and we'd been hoping to do RHoD for our game days. But thank you anyway. :)
JamesMaissen 08-30-06, 08:56 AM	It retires at the end of 2007. Note that we are aware that is a bit early, but the desicion has been made and it cannot be changed. Pieter Sleijpen RPGA Living Greyhawk Circle Member Is there a reason that some parts of this 5 part series will both be released and expire in 2007? I'm happy the circle has been so adventurous as to add these play opportunities for us in the first place, but the logistics of this one module are going to be a little tough on a significant number of us I think. This is (now) exaserbated by the nonstandard retirement date on some of the parts of it that will be released next year. I'd ask for two things to be strongly considered as well as re-ask a question or two made more important by this ruling: 1st thing to consider: Allow those playing in all 5 parts of Red Hand of Doom in 2007 to pay for metaorgs from 2008 TUs. Many metaorgs don't even allow for voluntary leaving (or atleast not without great penalty such as army metaorgs, etc). As metaorgs are in general good things and meant to encourage roleplay it seems harsh to penalize players for the wierd logistics caused by the 51TUs involved here. The play opportunities (ie TUs) would still be paid, it would just give a little leeway here to offset the nonstandard retirement of this set of modules. It would in essence balance out the fact that if these were normal modules that the last one could have been played in the following year. 2nd thing to request: As I'm sure alot of factors went into the decision not to allow parts that are going to be released next year to expire normally, I know it would be an aid and comfort to all of us to understand the thinking behind the decision. While as a group we gamers love to complain, at the end of the day if we have the reasons for things we, like everyone else, can be an accepting and reasonable lot (well in the main). All jokes aside, LG has seen this demonstrated time and time again, and any explaination here will make the contortions caused by the decision easier to bear if nothing else. And the questions re-raised: After you've played Part 1 (obstensibly this year as the logistics force it for anyone involved in their region's metaorgs) can you turn around and run Part 1 without burning yourself on the subsequent parts? How would you do so? And if you, indeed, cannot then this is going to cause some trouble in getting judges as normally they proliferate past those eating the module as those who've played then can turn around and run the module. With this in mind, perhaps an exception for this module could be made for online play? As cores are allowed to be done this way, I'm not sure why adaptables are not. I understood the restriction on metaregionals and regionals (as how can you know where your players are) but not this line. Anyway I appologize for the length of this. I think this adaptable system is a nice addition to LG and again applaud the circle for it's inclusion. It's simply the logistics of the TU cost for this one 'super module' that are causing all the headaches. Please take as testament our concern over this set of modules that we are fully embracing these new play opportunities and thus fully appreciate the extra work it must have caused for people that already have their plates quite full. Take care and thanks for all the good work, James Maissen
Madfox11 08-30-06, 08:59 AM	My suggestion? Premiere it the minute it is ready. There is absolutely no reason why completed material that won't be unveiled at special events should be sat on at all. It is not nearly as simple as that since people other than the Circle first have to approve the adaptation and second upload it into the RPGA database and add it in the ordering system. The proces runs relatively smoothly, but it still does not mean it can become available as soon as the Circle is ready (we are btw). Note though that I did say it would very likely be available late September/early October. It will definitely be available before the end of the year. That may not be a problem for you, but it is for relative newbs to LG. We only started our local LG group in May of this year. We started with half-a-dozen people and now have over triple that amount. We play 2-3 mods every game day (once a month) at 2-3 tables each and we are still growing. About half have reached 3rd level and are maybe half-way to 4th. They will be very hard pressed to reach APL6 by the end of the year. Many were excited when they heard they would be able to play in RoD. They will be very disappointed if they can't. My advice is to either aim to be able to play one part this year, and the rest next year, or otherwise do not join a MO and simple focus on RHoD next year. You are basically spending a whole year outside your region with the character anyway. The Circle is aware of the MO problem, and we are discussing a potential sollution, but remember that as far as MOs are concerned you could also discuss things with your local Triad. They design MOs, and the requirements, and if your character is not allowed to resign from a MO or cannot leave without risking demotion, they might be able to give your character special discompensation. Remember though that your character is spending over a year far away from home, so the Triads are perfectly within their rights to say that your character will have to make a choice.
paigeoliver 08-30-06, 10:29 AM	As far as metaorgs I would suggest lobbying your triad for a solution. The simplest one being that people who spend their entire year 7 on Red Hand of Doom be allowed to pay all metaorg time unit costs for year 7 with their one remaining time unit. After all, as they say, metaorgs are only SUPPOSED to be a roleplaying thing, so this SHOULDN'T be an issue. Somehow I think it will end up being an issue, even though it shouldn't be. Or, an equally valid solution is be sure to get part one out of the way this year. Or, as other people have said you can simply forget about the metaorg (you are going to spend a 3rd of your career on this module which has absolutely NOTHING to do with your metaorg), or play a character who isn't in any metaorgs. You still have enough time this year to start a character and get them up to the proper level. One final suggestion. You might be able to talk your triad into creating a short widespread "Pre Red Hand" special mission that is designed to whisk everyone's characters away from the region and into the Red Hand module while letting them (legally) put their orgs on hold.
Mommy was an Orc 08-30-06, 01:14 PM	The Circle is aware of the MO problem, and we are discussing a potential sollution, but remember that as far as MOs are concerned you could also discuss things with your local Triad. They design MOs, and the requirements, and if your character is not allowed to resign from a MO or cannot leave without risking demotion, they might be able to give your character special discompensation. Remember though that your character is spending over a year far away from home, so the Triads are perfectly within their rights to say that your character will have to make a choice. This seems straightforward, which means you've probably discussed it, but why not have a 'Tier 0' that individual metaorgs can opt out of if they wish. Along the lines of 1 TU, 0 gp, gain any disadvantages of Tier 1 membership and gain access to the first item listed on any favor from a mod that requires Tier 1 membership to that metaorg? So if an elven metaorg gave access to cloak of elvenkind, boots of elvenkind, elven chain, and an oathbow, the Tier 0 guy would only get the cloak, even if his character would only want the oathbow. It has two advantages: Fits in very nicely with RHoD. Allows people to join metaorgs that have interesting roleplaying flavor, but perhaps don't make a lot of sense for the character. As an example, my archer is going to get some divine casting capability at some point - he'd like to join a divine caster group that protects nature. He's also part of a militia that functions in a way similar to local law enforcement. Joining both groups would be extremely costly in TUs, to the point where it doesn't make any sense for me to do that. But if I could join one of the groups in a 1 TU fashion, that would make a lot of sense in a roleplaying fashion. i.e. he joins the nature group for full TU, but keeps in touch with the militia for 1 TU.
Paul H 08-30-06, 05:39 PM	Hi Our club playing RHoD later this year (not as LG). Just how adaptable is adaptable? Does the LG version stick rigidly to the original, since those with the campaign book will have definite advantage? Need to know, since if it's only 'general' information that's shared we can run first part at our local con in Nov. (If adapted RHoD's out then). If not then I won't upset our local GM and mess his (non LG) campaign up. Cheers Paul H
jhorred 08-30-06, 11:44 PM	It retires at the end of 2007. Note that we are aware that is a bit early, but the desicion has been made and it cannot be changed. Pieter Sleijpen RPGA Living Greyhawk Circle Member Do what? That makes no sense what so ever. I'm sure it could be changed if the Circle really wanted to make an issue of it. It's not in the ordering system yet so, unless there's some arcane procedure that I don't know about, it seems that it'd be easy to extend the retirement date, much like was done for Here There Be Dragons. RHoD is a major undertaking for any group that is not lucky enough to have characters that fit the mod at the time it's released. I might have a character that can squeeze in one or maybe two parts of RHoD this year. However, he's still only 4th and I'm sure if I can get him to 6th with enough TU to play RHoD this year. One thing I've not seen brought up is the fact that some people are a little picky like me and they like to play mod series with the same character. Some people may sadly decline to play RHoD to pay MO costs and play mods that are sequels to other mods. I know that RHoD is a major undertaking for any character, so I do not take exception at the mod costing 51 TUs, but as this is a serious chunk of TU for anyone, I'd hope that the Circle reconsider their decision. I know this is an extra opportunity for game play, and it's a huge module compared to most RPGA mods. For this reason, I'd think that the Circle would allow it to break some of the standards for mods, mainly the retirement issue. I realize that the Circle will not likely revisit the issue, but one would think that, as they were trying to expand play opportunities, they would allow extraordinary retirement dates for an extraordinary mod. I realize that this is very ranty and perhaps I should apologize for that. I do appreaciate the fact the Circle is trying to expand play opportunities and all the time and effort they put into making the campaign better for us. I'm only taking exception at their decision to not extend the retirement date of RHoD. I think it's a mistake to not allow us more time to complete this epic mod.
Cynric 08-31-06, 01:56 AM	Epic is right. Not all characters get to play all mods, especially not the Epic adventures. I have gone to the trouble of putting one of my PC's outside gaming for the time being so he can play RHoD. I understand not everyone can do so, but saying I have not had to make a scrifice to do so is another thing entirely.
Madfox11 08-31-06, 04:05 AM	Do what? That makes no sense what so ever. I'm sure it could be changed if the Circle really wanted to make an issue of it. It's not in the ordering system yet so, unless there's some arcane procedure that I don't know about, it seems that it'd be easy to extend the retirement date, much like was done for Here There Be Dragons. Technically of course changing the retirement date is no issue. Even if it had already been in the ordering database it would be easily enough to change. There are bussiness issues involved though. You seem to think that we can do whatever we want, but while we have considerable freedom in running this campaign, it is still part of the RPGA and it is still publishing material that is owned by WotC. Perhaps we could go into a fight over this with RPGA, but why should we? We are aware of the reasons, and while we do not necessarily like them, we do understand them. Even if we did not though, fighting over this particular subject is a waste of energy. With the current set of rules most people can play the adventure, but those that cannot, still have ample of oppertunities to play other adventures, more than enough to fill those 52 TU. There are some things the Circle can do to make it slightly easier to play, and like I said, we are discussing these. Our club playing RHoD later this year (not as LG). Just how adaptable is adaptable? Does the LG version stick rigidly to the original, since those with the campaign book will have definite advantage? You will have to choose whether to play the adventure at home or as part of the Living Greyhawk Campaign. We have adapted the adventure to fit our rules concerning TUs, ARs, xp and gp, and we made some cosmetic changes so that it fits the world of Greyhawk, but it is essentially the same adventure. This seems straightforward, which means you've probably discussed it, but why not have a 'Tier 0' that individual metaorgs can opt out of if they wish. That is up to the individual Triads. They are responsible for their MOs, and as they are perfectly within their right not to help the players in this regard. We are talking about a mission that has no impact on most regions (only the Sheldomar Valley might have direct stakes in it). So why would the MOs accept their members leaving for 1 full year while fighting a cause that is not the organization's? In any event, you will have to ask your Triad about it. Pieter Sleijpen RPGA Living Greyhawk Circle Member The Splintered Suns
chesspiece 08-31-06, 09:51 AM	Thank you Pieter, for your attention & answers. I'm going to (wildly) speculate that some of the business reasons include availability of the module in stores and WotC's desire that everyone just play the darn thing ASAP and get out there to buy & play future Adapted modules. (Like Expedition to the Demonweb Pits... yum!) However, I do hope that the time to release for future large Adapted's is faster - allowing for more play time. It seems to me that the available time is a significant concern for Players. Also, I'll raise a concern that I haven't seen yet. This is a dangerous module. I've spoken with some (non-LG) DMs that have wiped out PCs / parties in some of the tougher fights. If you think that your PC level & TUs are the only hurdle, you're mistaken. Some LG groups may fail part-way through RHoD - either due to TPK or PC attrition (deaths & raises may result in PCs that are too low-level to continue the series). Cheers, Stephen Martin (who can't wait to start Judging this sucker)
chesspiece 08-31-06, 10:11 AM	I’d like to take advantage of Pieter’s attention to this thread with a few (non-Spoiler) questions. Are the APL rules for RHoD basically the same as normal LG? What I mean is, can PCs within 2 levels of a chapter’s APL play without penalty? How does the ability to level-up mid-chapter affect this? If a PC levels up to APL+3 mid-chapter, do they receive half XP & half GP for the rest of that chapter? Since each chapter has only 1 APL available, how does calculated APL work? If a party of 6 PCs all reach 10th level after chapter 4, they have a modified APL of 11. Are they allowed to play chapter 5 (APL 9)? You mentioned that the Adapted changes are cosmetic to fit LG. Is the Circle doing module Errata? (Mostly stat block corrections.) The module gives some DM advice on how to handle a couple bad spots (where the the Party gets penalized if they made mistakes – but should not automatically TPK if they made too many). Is the Circle going to give rules on how to handle these cases or is it left to the discretion of individual Judges? Thanks. Stephen Martin
Howie23 08-31-06, 10:17 AM	Our club playing RHoD later this year (not as LG). Just how adaptable is adaptable? Does the LG version stick rigidly to the original, since those with the campaign book will have definite advantage? To play it this both as an LG mod and as homeplay, you need to play it as LG first. Otherwise, you are not eligible to play it. Need to know, since if it's only 'general' information that's shared we can run first part at our local con in Nov. (If adapted RHoD's out then). If not then I won't upset our local GM and mess his (non LG) campaign up. Adapted mods are not available for convention play. They are available for retail and homeplay only. David
Madfox11 08-31-06, 02:08 PM	I’d like to take advantage of Pieter’s attention to this thread with a few (non-Spoiler) questions. Good questions that I can answer without discussing it with my fellow Circle Members. Will get back to you about them. One thing people: the Triads are perfectly within their rights not to offer any special discompensation for MOs. I would even go further and say that personally I do not expact many (if any) to do so, after all, your character is leaving the region for 1 year for something that holds little interest to the MO in question. I hope I am clear about it.
timerino 08-31-06, 06:49 PM	As far as metaorgs I would suggest lobbying your triad for a solution. The simplest one being that people who spend their entire year 7 on Red Hand of Doom be allowed to pay all metaorg time unit costs for year 7 with their one remaining time unit. After all, as they say, metaorgs are only SUPPOSED to be a roleplaying thing, so this SHOULDN'T be an issue. Somehow I think it will end up being an issue, even though it shouldn't be. In 'my region' [name witheld], metaorg's are becoming HIGHLY RECOMMENDED (not quite required, but c'mon, it really is) for regional module for 'plot access' (flunder for hours without access to the next event), 'NPC access' (nope, Gather Info isn't enough anymore; they won't even talk to you without being a member of their metaorg), 'AR item access' for new modules (no, it's not all lost ... but man, the nice stuff is getting even more limited). That regional metaorg rationale is very admirable: to allow more regional flavor, devise regional access to regional NPCs, etc. It move old 'meta-org' item access when joined to 'meta-org' access on regional ARs. All in all, a good plan. PLEASE PLEASE don't take this as a Triad flame. I think my Triad folks are working too hard for too little appreciation. They are doing a much better job than I can speculate on my potential free time and work ethic. In fact, they are doing a great job: so good, i spend time complaining. :) However, it does break the 51 TU limit. In my region, MetaOrg membership is not really optional anymore. That is my point. timerino
jhorred 08-31-06, 11:58 PM	Technically of course changing the retirement date is no issue. Even if it had already been in the ordering database it would be easily enough to change. There are bussiness issues involved though. You seem to think that we can do whatever we want, but while we have considerable freedom in running this campaign, it is still part of the RPGA and it is still publishing material that is owned by WotC. Perhaps we could go into a fight over this with RPGA, but why should we? We are aware of the reasons, and while we do not necessarily like them, we do understand them. Even if we did not though, fighting over this particular subject is a waste of energy. With the current set of rules most people can play the adventure, but those that cannot, still have ample of oppertunities to play other adventures, more than enough to fill those 52 TU. There are some things the Circle r)can do to make it slightly easier to play, and like I said, we are discussing these. Pieter Sleijpen RPGA Living Greyhawk Circle Member The Splintered Suns Thanks for the more insight in this. I was under the impression that it was a Circle only decision. I took Chris Tulach's "We're discussing it" to mean that the Circle was discussing it. I did not think that the Circle had to take input on this issue from the RPGA or WoTC. I was mistaken and perhaps a little narrowminded in that thinking. Also, I'll raise a concern that I haven't seen yet. This is a dangerous module. I've spoken with some (non-LG) DMs that have wiped out PCs / parties in some of the tougher fights. If you think that your PC level & TUs are the only hurdle, you're mistaken. Some LG groups may fail part-way through RHoD - either due to TPK or PC attrition (deaths & raises may result in PCs that are too low-level to continue the series). Cheers, Stephen Martin I've heard that Fane of the Drow is rough as well.
Cynric 09-01-06, 02:24 AM	Fane of the Drow was not that tough a nmodule. I have played it and run it. The biggest hurdle I saw wa the fact that it requires an Iconic party more than the normal LG module. This means that a lot of tables with weird builds that do not hit their stride till level 9 or so are obviously going to have some trouble. But that is another rant I have about LG and non-Iconics.
Evanta 09-02-06, 10:09 AM	Seriously though, if you make a special exception for the module and delay the expiry till Jan or Feb 08 (1 or 2 months really should not affect sales I think) instead of Dec 07, you can save yourself a lot of problems, as players easily finish off the tail end of the module.
Madfox11 09-03-06, 08:20 AM	I’d like to take advantage of Pieter’s attention to this thread with a few (non-Spoiler) questions. These quests are going to be answered in the adaptation document, but I can reprint them here. Are the APL rules for RHoD basically the same as normal LG? What I mean is, can PCs within 2 levels of a chapter’s APL play without penalty? Yes, although we advice against starting with 7th and 8th level characters, because it might not be as much fun. Also note that characters 4 or more levels than the APL are not allowed to play as normal by the LG rules. How does the ability to level-up mid-chapter affect this? If a PC levels up to APL+3 mid-chapter, do they receive half XP & half GP for the rest of that chapter? No, you base it on the level at which the PC started that part, not what it became in between. Since each chapter has only 1 APL available, how does calculated APL work? If a party of 6 PCs all reach 10th level after chapter 4, they have a modified APL of 11. Are they allowed to play chapter 5 (APL 9)? Exactly as per the normal LG rules, except that each part counts as a seperate adventure and that each adventure has only 1 APL range. In your example, 10th level character can still play the adventure, hence this is allowed, although I doubt it would be much fun. Unless you play adventures in between each part, we don't think this issue will arise very often. You mentioned that the Adapted changes are cosmetic to fit LG. Is the Circle doing module Errata? (Mostly stat block corrections.) The module gives some DM advice on how to handle a couple bad spots (where the the Party gets penalized if they made mistakes – but should not automatically TPK if they made too many). Is the Circle going to give rules on how to handle these cases or is it left to the discretion of individual Judges? We leave everything to the DM, as always and we only adapted what had to be clearly adapted. Pieter Sleijpen RPGA Living Greyhawk Circle Member The Splintered Suns
smerwin29 09-03-06, 08:51 AM	Seriously though, if you make a special exception for the module and delay the expiry till Jan or Feb 08 (1 or 2 months really should not affect sales I think) instead of Dec 07, you can save yourself a lot of problems, as players easily finish off the tail end of the module. Pieter answered this already, above: "Technically of course changing the retirement date is no issue. Even if it had already been in the ordering database it would be easily enough to change. There are bussiness issues involved though. You seem to think that we can do whatever we want, but while we have considerable freedom in running this campaign, it is still part of the RPGA and it is still publishing material that is owned by WotC. Perhaps we could go into a fight over this with RPGA, but why should we? We are aware of the reasons, and while we do not necessarily like them, we do understand them. Even if we did not though, fighting over this particular subject is a waste of energy."
JamesMaissen 09-03-06, 09:25 PM	Exactly as per the normal LG rules, except that each part counts as a seperate adventure and that each adventure has only 1 APL range. We leave everything to the DM, as always and we only adapted what had to be clearly adapted. Pieter Sleijpen RPGA Living Greyhawk Circle Member The Splintered Suns Sorry for pestering, but is it going to be possible for someone to (for example) play Part 1, then turn around and run Part 1 without eating the rest of the module's subsequent Parts? That is could someone play Part 1 when it's available this year and then turn around and run it for others without making him/herself inelligble to play the rest of the Parts of this supermod? I'm not sure how one would do that mind you (maybe only read up to a certain page?) but if that's not possible, then propogating judges is going to be an issue I would assume. Thanks for your time, James Maissen
Madfox11 09-04-06, 04:20 AM	Sorry for pestering, but is it going to be possible for someone to (for example) play Part 1, then turn around and run Part 1 without eating the rest of the module's subsequent Parts? Don't be ;) (Sorry that is.) Your question is valid, although I do think you can answer this for yourself. There is only one adaptation sheet, and running an adventure without having read the whole adventure is in my experience a bad idea. Not to mention that the background section of the adventure covers the whole adventure, unlike most LG series where the authors do their utmost best to limit potential spoilers for future parts.
Mithreinmaethor 09-05-06, 06:22 PM	It all most boils down to the fact for me that I have purchased the $25 product and wont be able to play it because I am a metaorg member. And why would WOTC care how long it is made available for play in LG ? Thats like saying I am running this module in my home game but cant run it after December 2007. And with this ADP especially has anyone in the Circle considered making it available to play at a convention unlike the other ADP's ? Because as a 5 part module it would be perfect for a 3 or 4 day convention.
kenobi65 09-05-06, 11:16 PM	And with this ADP especially has anyone in the Circle considered making it available to play at a convention unlike the other ADP's ? Because as a 5 part module it would be perfect for a 3 or 4 day convention. If those "parts" were anything close to a 4-hour slot, then that might make some sense. From what I've read, you're looking at many many hours to play each part (I seem to recall, though I may be wrong, some estimate of 100 hours to play the entire module).
JamesMaissen 09-05-06, 11:42 PM	Don't be ;) (Sorry that is.) Your question is valid, although I do think you can answer this for yourself. There is only one adaptation sheet, and running an adventure without having read the whole adventure is in my experience a bad idea. Not to mention that the background section of the adventure covers the whole adventure, unlike most LG series where the authors do their utmost best to limit potential spoilers for future parts. Yeah I figured that was the answer, just hoping it wasn't. It's going to make running the first part of it this year that much harder as only those eating the module will be doing so and there will be NO propogation of judges. Is there anything that can be done to mitigate this? Thanks for the reply, James
jhorred 09-06-06, 01:47 AM	I see it as likely that few groups will be able to play it without people having to have to eat it. And I see it likely that given the difficulties with a mod this size that groups will be much less likely to play through this one than the others. In fact I've kinda resigned to the fact that I don't think my group will attempt this mod.
paigeoliver 09-06-06, 08:11 AM	Well, since the module was out for months before any adaptable was ever announced there SHOULD be a sizeable number of players who had already read it/played it. None of those people are eligible to play it. So there is one group of potential judges right there. Another group of potential judges include all the people unwilling to leave their metaorgs and unwilling to play another character instead. THEY could run the module. Many players know other D&D players who dislike RPGA play or aren't normally involved in Living Greyhawk. These people could be easily recruited to run what they would certainly view as a more standard module. Many player groups include sizable numbers of newer members, some of whom won't be able to play Red Hand due to the fact they won't have a character high enough level to play it. That includes EVERYONE that doesn't have a level 5 character by January 1st next year. Finally, if all THOSE options fail you then there are the people whom could find no other option. They could run the module, since it is obvious they aren't going to get to play it anyway.
codyknotts 09-19-06, 12:08 AM	Just when is this going to be released? I have already bought the module in preparation and we had hoped to get the 7 time unit part in this year. We have players holding back on their main characters to not use up the time units. More information is needed regular on this rather than it is coming soon in September or October. Please advise as we our group has been building characters specifically for this adventure.
Evanta 09-19-06, 01:18 AM	I know, but I fail to see why business issues are affected if you push it the expiry date by just a month, enough for people to finish up the last 6+ TUs with a fresh load of 52 TUs. I can only see that the module would SELL BETTER as more people can actually play it and not worry about not being able to finish the campaign. And I do not think it would affect other new modules all that much? Pieter answered this already, above: "Technically of course changing the retirement date is no issue. Even if it had already been in the ordering database it would be easily enough to change. There are bussiness issues involved though. You seem to think that we can do whatever we want, but while we have considerable freedom in running this campaign, it is still part of the RPGA and it is still publishing material that is owned by WotC. Perhaps we could go into a fight over this with RPGA, but why should we? We are aware of the reasons, and while we do not necessarily like them, we do understand them. Even if we did not though, fighting over this particular subject is a waste of energy."
smerwin29 09-19-06, 09:25 AM	I know, but I fail to see why business issues are affected if you push it the expiry date by just a month, enough for people to finish up the last 6+ TUs with a fresh load of 52 TUs. I can only see that the module would SELL BETTER as more people can actually play it and not worry about not being able to finish the campaign. And I do not think it would affect other new modules all that much? I work on the Xen'drik Campaign. We will have an idea, and we will go to WotC and say, "We'd like to do this." They will say, "No." We will say, "Why?" They will say, "There is a good reason, but we cannot tell you." So complaining about a decision to the Circle does no good, because the decision is not theirs. Complaining to the RPGA doesn't do any good, because they have made the decision based on business issues that they either cannot or will not reveal, even to the volunteer campaign staff. So your failure to see the reasons behind the decisions do not make those decisions any more or less valid. They might be good decisions or they might be bad decisions, but since they are based on business criteria that neither you nor I are aware of, it's irrelevant in the long run because we simply live by those decisions. Shawn (who will change some character choices so he can play RHoD like everyone else)
JohnduBois 09-19-06, 09:37 AM	I think that we should be reading "fighting over this subject is a waste of energy" to also read "this is non-negotiable, and further argument will only increase the chances that one side or the other will get needlessly angry". My experience as a playtester has taught me that, for one of a variety of reasons, some matters are simply not up for discussion. It seems that this is one of them.
Evanta 09-19-06, 10:20 AM	Ok, at least that makes things clearer. I'd think though you should take what I say to be a feedback, not as a complaint. And I'd say that, hearing how bad your situation, it sucks to be you, squeezed in between the customers who demand answers, and the non-communicative superiors. :P I work on the Xen'drik Campaign. We will have an idea, and we will go to WotC and say, "We'd like to do this." They will say, "No." We will say, "Why?" They will say, "There is a good reason, but we cannot tell you." So complaining about a decision to the Circle does no good, because the decision is not theirs. Complaining to the RPGA doesn't do any good, because they have made the decision based on business issues that they either cannot or will not reveal, even to the volunteer campaign staff. So your failure to see the reasons behind the decisions do not make those decisions any more or less valid. They might be good decisions or they might be bad decisions, but since they are based on business criteria that neither you nor I are aware of, it's irrelevant in the long run because we simply live by those decisions. Shawn (who will change some character choices so he can play RHoD like everyone else)
redthirst 09-19-06, 02:29 PM	The situation may suck but that's just the way it is. But I really do appreciate the way the Xendrik faction masters and the LG Circle communicate with the rest of us on certain issues. :)
smerwin29 09-19-06, 03:57 PM	Ok, at least that makes things clearer. I'd think though you should take what I say to be a feedback, not as a complaint. And I'd say that, hearing how bad your situation, it sucks to be you, squeezed in between the customers who demand answers, and the non-communicative superiors. :P I figured that would clear it up. I think sometimes people around here (me included) forget that the RPGA is just a small part of a marketing department of a large company, and we forget that they have to operate like any other big company does. So I would never call my superiors "non-communicative," because they have been very communicative, even if that communication was "that data is proprietary right now." Refusing to reveal future plans and not releasing important company data tends to tick people off in this era of wanting every bit of information at our disposal immediately, but it happens in any business.
Puggle Halfwine 09-19-06, 03:59 PM	So. Any word on when Red Hand will be available for play?
Cynric 09-19-06, 07:10 PM	Yes, Any ideas on when. Or even generally, month wise. Are we talking October, November or December. A lot of players around here go home to visit family in december and do not come back till mid January, so knowing generally when would be helpful to pre-organise some tables, get them done over Christmas and subsequently get some more GM's organised.
TimRat 09-19-06, 10:47 PM	its coming as soon as we can get it posted. It is done just for a few things on it so just hold on a bit longer please. thanks
Cynric 09-20-06, 01:30 AM	No probs. We will all be busy for the next few weeks with Spring Revel Down under anyway.
qstor 09-23-06, 07:26 PM	Just an idea..I think all of Pieter's answers and points as well as Chris Tulach's should go into the next Dispel Confusion. Thanks to the Co6. Mike
codyknotts 09-26-06, 03:52 PM	So, will Red Hand of Doom be ready (and available for retail/home play) by the 1st of November? 1st of December? Before the 1st of January? I understand the reason for the delay, it is complicated, but wondering if players can get any time units in this year with long module. :P
Timlagor 09-27-06, 12:29 PM	[I may be wrong] My udnerstanding of the delay is that it's due to the shakeup at the RPGA. I believe the Circle have done their part and passed it on for approval with no control over and no real idea when it will come back.
pwilcox 09-27-06, 05:20 PM	So, how many other people out there have full tables ready to go the minute this gets released? Been doing playtesting to blow the mod wide open? Mine's been ready for about 2 months now. (Incidentally it's the same group that tackled Fane of the Drow like it was My Little Pony. Tactical cooperation is a beautiful thing)
Howie23 09-27-06, 05:35 PM	So, how many other people out there have full tables ready to go the minute this gets released? Been doing playtesting to blow the mod wide open? Raises hand. I'm running a local group through it non-RPGA both to remember what non-LG gaming is about and to prep for the RPGA group I've got together to start playing ASAReleased. David
Timlagor 09-28-06, 11:00 AM	My character for it isn't high enough yet but there is at least one table ready in my local group.
Arinaad 09-28-06, 06:56 PM	<Hand raised> My group treated Here There be Dragons like a sunny day in August in Maui. The encounters in that mod were not even worth running. We have a Justicar, a Drunken Master, a soon to be Reaping Mauler, a Bard, a dual-wand wielding wizard, and a Quicken Spell Cleric. No slowing us down... The bard sings, the drunken master gets polymorphed into a tiger and takes out the mages... the reaping mauler takes the big stuff out of the combat for a few rounds, the justicar wipes up the creatures sent in to bump up the EL, and the wizard then begins counterspelling everything... The cleric, well, does cleric stuff. Arinaad
codyknotts 10-04-06, 02:54 PM	Ok, so.. When might this be available? Given that it will not be available for convention play, I assume that it will be for retail and/or home play first? Is there any idea of a time line? Any at all? I have a group that is ready to play to baby as do the others, but when will it be made available? Rough estimate? Cody Knotts :confused:
Evanta 10-05-06, 10:27 PM	its coming as soon as we can get it posted. It is done just for a few things on it so just hold on a bit longer please. thanks hmmm. I finally will get my group's at my local store soon. I had expected the ARs to be up long up by now, considering that the TUs have already been broken up. I only hope there'll be more information filtering down so that we know whether players should reserve the 8 TUs to hopefully play part I this year, as we will need to arrange a co-inciding time too.
codyknotts 10-10-06, 03:06 PM	impatient DM.... So when is it coming,... some general idea... Please, pretty please... Cody Knotts :D
chesspiece 10-16-06, 12:30 PM	The exact date it will premier is not yet certain, although it probably will be in September or October (we are discussing it right as I type this). It retires at the end of 2007. Note that we are aware that is a bit early, but the desicion has been made and it cannot be changed. I finally failed my Will check to resist asking about the release date (Nat 1). I know it's probably out of the Circle's hands, but please share any news / timelines you receive. Just hoping that this process is still moving... I'm also wondering if all the chapters will be released simultaneously. If Chapter 1 appears in November and Chapter 5 shows up in 2007, I'm hoping the Circle will re-request that the last Chapter(s) retire in 2008 in consideration. Thanks again.
codyknotts 10-17-06, 11:35 AM	So any ETA? Keep asking, hoping, praying, believing... wishing... Please advise... Cody Knotts The Impatient one...
the truthseeker 10-18-06, 07:54 AM	Stupid question here but: Can HQ explain to us why they are standing firm on the retrement date and/or the delay of the module release? And while I appreciate any other person's reply to this, this is addressed to HQ. Now, if you are a liason and received an answer from HQ to give to the RPGA organization outside the circle, I find that an accepable reply. Forgive the bluntless, but I am just trying to end the speculation and work with what facts can be released. Thank you for your understanding.
Timlagor 10-18-06, 08:23 AM	The exact date it will premier is not yet certain, although it probably will be in September or October (we are discussing it right as I type this). It retires at the end of 2007. Note that we are aware that is a bit early, but the desicion has been made and it cannot be changed. Pieter Sleijpen RPGA Living Greyhawk Circle Member Given that the premier still hasn't been announced, is there a point at which this decision will become open to reconsideration again? Is there a reason you can share for it not being extended? [my understanding is that this was not a Circle decision]
paigeoliver 10-18-06, 08:46 AM	edit
Mithreinmaethor 10-19-06, 04:12 AM	I am sure they are getting tired of us asking. But it would be nice to give us a little hint. It will be November before we know it. And thats when the Holiday season kicks in. College kids go home for fall break etc etc etc etc. At this point it is going to be hard for alot of groups to start to play this mod in the next couple of months because of the holidays.
chesspiece 10-20-06, 11:21 AM	Just to make sure folks are up to date on this list. This post on L_G Y! was from a Triad member. "Something should be announced shortly by the Circle..." http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/Living_Greyhawk/message/88350 So it sounds to me like the Circle is almost ready to make a new statement about RHoD. Whether it's getting released or they're changing retirement dates / TUs - only time will tell. But knowing this much is enough to shut me up for at least another week. :) [fingers crossed] Cheers, Stephen Martin
JayParker 10-20-06, 11:45 AM	And while I appreciate any other person's reply to this, this is addressed to HQ. Now, if you are a liason and received an answer from HQ to give to the RPGA organization outside the circle, I find that an accepable reply. if u only want HQ to answe, ask HQ.
chesspiece 10-25-06, 11:42 AM	It's up on the RPGA site. https://events.wizards.com/RPGAWeb/external/econplay.asp?ScenarioCd=RDHDM1LG Huzzah for the Circle! (and little Huzzah's for the RPGA HQ bureaucracy). - Steve
trollbill 10-25-06, 12:49 PM	Sadly, even though they have finally released RHoD, I don't see how my group can possible play it in its entirety. Our local group of 20+ people started playing LG in May. When we heard about RHoD being LG playable, we thought it was a great idea. Several of us struggled to get 5th or 6th level characters in time to play the mod before the end of the year so that we wouldn't be stuck with the, 'only one free TU to do anything else (including get raised if you die)' problem. Unfortunately, what we didn't realize (being new to LG) was that by the time we had finally achieved that goal of reaching 6th level in a year's time we would all have less than 10 TUs remaining in the year. Given that we all belong to MetaOrgs with TU requirements, may have to get raised (hate to see someone get kicked out of playing RHoD by using up 1 too many TUs because they died and had to get raised half-way through RHoD), and there are various other unanticipate issues that can drain TUs, I feel it would be sufficiently impossible for us to play RHoD in its entirety as to not bother even trying.
Lomiat 10-25-06, 01:14 PM	The first section of Red Hand of Doom costs 8 TUs, and you can play it this year before tackling the other 43 TUs of adventuring next year. That leaves your characters (currently with 10 TUs), 2 TUs for stuff this year and 9 TUs for stuff next year. If that's not enough, then I'm afraid you had the wrong idea about Red Hand of Doom all along. It's been fairly evident since the word first circulated that players were going to need to dedicate a PC to Red Hand of Doom for a year and have little to nothing to do with that PC othewise for the year.
qstor 10-25-06, 01:21 PM	If that's not enough, then I'm afraid you had the wrong idea about Red Hand of Doom all along. It's been fairly evident since the word first circulated that players were going to need to dedicate a PC to Red Hand of Doom for a year and have little to nothing to do with that PC othewise for the year. What about meta-org TU's and much or playing one around between sections? Mike
RedKnightofKet 10-25-06, 01:35 PM	What about meta-org TU's and much or playing one around between sections? Mike Well, either try and get one or two rounds in this year, or don't play it. The timing is tight for the module, but word has been out about this for a while. While the meta-org cost is unavoidable, you can look to play other modules with different characters. If you can't do that, then RHoD isn't for you.
chesspiece 10-25-06, 02:07 PM	Well, either try and get one or two rounds in this year, or don't play it. The timing is tight for the module, but word has been out about this for a while. While the meta-org cost is unavoidable, you can look to play other modules with different characters. If you can't do that, then RHoD isn't for you. But wait... [From ADP6-03 Red Hand of Doom.pdf] "Do not expect to see an exception of this sort again." "Exception to the TU Rules PCs attempting to complete this adventure before it expires on December 31, 2007 may do so by borrowing TUs from their 2008 allotment. This requires the following to be in effect: * You must complete all play sessions for this adventure before December 31, 2007. * You cannot play any other adventures in between the parts of this adventure. You must play all five parts consecutively. * You can only borrow TUs from 2008 to pay for the final part (Part Five, which costs 16 TUs) of this adventure. You must use all of your 2007 TUs before borrowing the balance from your 2008 TUs, so the maximum you can borrow is 16 TUs from 2008. The TUs are immediately removed from your 2008 allotment the moment you begin play in 2008. Be sure to note this information on the ARs so it is clear if you do borrow TUs." Sorry if I'm stealing thunder from the Circle. But I got giddy reading that. Good show! Cheers, Steve
trollbill 10-25-06, 02:15 PM	The first section of Red Hand of Doom costs 8 TUs, and you can play it this year before tackling the other 43 TUs of adventuring next year. That leaves your characters (currently with 10 TUs), 2 TUs for stuff this year and 9 TUs for stuff next year. If that's not enough, then I'm afraid you had the wrong idea about Red Hand of Doom all along. It's been fairly evident since the word first circulated that players were going to need to dedicate a PC to Red Hand of Doom for a year and have little to nothing to do with that PC othewise for the year. Well, like I said our group was new to LG. While we understood the demands of RHoD, we didn't understand the demands of getting a character up to 6th. We played too many Core mods (double TUs), played bonus rounds on adventures to gain access (and in at least one mod due to RP reasons that gave us no benefit) (1-3 TUs), joined Metaorgs (2-10 TUs), died (1 TU), got cursed (4 TUs), got captured (12 TUs), got enslaved (12 TUs), created magic items (variable TUs), tried to earn extra cash (variable TUs) and many assorted things we didn't realize would leave us with next to no TUs by the time we actually hit 6th-level. But you are probably right. RHoD doesn't seem suited to us. It seems suited to those players who have been around so long in LG that they have a large enough repetiore of characters they can pull one out for whatever APL is needed. Shame that.
kenobi65 10-25-06, 02:35 PM	Well, like I said our group was new to LG. While we understood the demands of RHoD, we didn't understand the demands of getting a character up to 6th. We played too many Core mods (double TUs), played bonus rounds on adventures to gain access (and in at least one mod due to RP reasons that gave us no benefit) (1-3 TUs), joined Metaorgs (2-10 TUs), died (1 TU), got cursed (4 TUs), got captured (12 TUs), got enslaved (12 TUs), created magic items (variable TUs), tried to earn extra cash (variable TUs) and many assorted things we didn't realize would leave us with next to no TUs by the time we actually hit 6th-level. Did you read chesspiece's post above? It sounds like, as long as you can have 35 TUs free when you start RHoD in 2006 (to cover parts 1-4), you're good.
trollbill 10-25-06, 02:43 PM	Did you read chesspiece's post above? It sounds like, as long as you can have 35 TUs free when you start RHoD in 2006 (to cover parts 1-4), you're good. No, I was typing my response while he submitted his and didn't see it until I clicked submit reply. It is good news. :)
qstor 11-06-06, 10:05 PM	My friend said you're allowed to play adventures in between parts? Madfox is there anything from the Circle on this? I heard you weren't allowed to play adventures between parts? thanks Mike
JJeff 11-06-06, 10:18 PM	My friend said you're allowed to play adventures in between parts? Madfox is there anything from the Circle on this? I heard you weren't allowed to play adventures between parts? thanks Mike You are allowed to play adventures between parts only if you don't use the option to spend 2008's TUs that they allow you. But of course, it is highly suggested that you don't.
Spektral 11-22-06, 06:49 PM	Is it allowed to have a player in this mod who currently has 14 tus in 2006 left play mod 1 (8 tu) and mod 2 (12 TU) and consume tu's from 2007. Otherwise he holds up all of the other players and I will need to find a replacement for him as this is meant for the other 5 people who dont get to play often. Basically as per my understanding we are not to play other mods, its december and we play on 1 game day to get 1-2 and maybe 3 done if at all possible (We are seriously hardcore) prior to 2007 to allow for game play next year for those persons. Other wise we have a problem with people not having a character for 12 months... a tad on the ruff side. Can we have a ruling on this from a circle member?
Cynric 11-22-06, 10:56 PM	From what I have heard from a group that played the first part locally, make sure you have plenty of time available. Apparently part one took them 15 hours to complete.
Madfox11 11-23-06, 05:55 AM	Is it allowed to have a player in this mod who currently has 14 tus in 2006 left play mod 1 (8 tu) and mod 2 (12 TU) and consume tu's from 2007? No. Pieter Sleijpen RPGA Living Greyhawk Circle Member The splintered Suns.
rockondon 12-20-06, 09:26 PM	well at least I can still use up TUs by abusing my item creation feats. I don't mind borrowing TUs from 2008 for a worthy cause. BTW here's the link to RHoD on wizards. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg/lgad/20061025a
chesspiece 12-20-06, 10:29 PM	First, another plug for the RHoD Judges group: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/RPGA-RHoD The following exchange occurred on Nov 2nd: "So, summarising, I guess this means that the 3 points listed only apply if you are trying to use 2008's TUs so the players, if not using 2008's TU, can play other adventures in between. And it seems that RHoD doesn't allow crafting since it is not a Core, Regional or Metaregional. And that using favours that cost TU would be going against the spirit of the adventure in general since the different parts are virtually consecutive. Is that the offical word on this?" "Yes, you're interpretation is correct. - Steven Steven Conforti Living Greyhawk - the Circle" The 'no crafting in ADPs' rule has been overturned by the recent Dispel Confusion. However, I (as a Judge) will inform my Players that use of MIC or TU-cost favours during RHoD will prevent them from borrowing TUs from 2008. Granted that this wasn't posted on a public board. And the Circle may choose to revisit their position in the future.