Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wraith235 08-06-07, 05:53 PM	Just curious what the different Regional stances are on Kobolds ... I'm rather dissappointed with Nyronds stance ... maybe its just me but I'm looking to see if its as bad in other regions .. the Link to the Document can be found here URL Created with TinyURL http://tinyurl.com/yvb85e
clannagh 08-06-07, 07:12 PM	Ratik has currently left it up to discussion with Triad stepping in a bit later in the piece though the tone of much of the discussion is along the lines of "maybe the NPCs will not randomly slaughter Kobold PCs if they pretend to be slaves of a PC with rank in Ratik, unless the NPC is a gnome of course in which case the kobold is a deadset goner" Well slight exagerration :) but you get the idea. Controversial enough for me to not bother with a kobold PC anyway. Of course the problem with any forum based discussion is you are not getting an random sample of contributors. In the end i am not sure if it matters. There were no regional restrictions on Centaurs and yet they seem to attract a lot of in game prejudice to the point that some people stopped playing them altogether.
Lupo 08-06-07, 07:38 PM	Ratik has currently left it up to discussion with Triad stepping in a bit later in the piece though the tone of much of the discussion is along the lines of "maybe the NPCs will not randomly slaughter Kobold PCs if they pretend to be slaves of a PC with rank in Ratik, unless the NPC is a gnome of course in which case the kobold is a deadset goner" Well slight exagerration :) but you get the idea. Controversial enough for me to not bother with a kobold PC anyway. Of course the problem with any forum based discussion is you are not getting an random sample of contributors. In the end i am not sure if it matters. There were no regional restrictions on Centaurs and yet they seem to attract a lot of in game prejudice to the point that some people stopped playing them altogether. oh, there are regional restrictions on centaurs, in innspa/ahlissa a decree of the ruling princess karasin was issued that prohibited centaurs from entering the city of innspa (basically blocking them from taking part in adventures or parts of these that take place in the city of innspa). for kobolds there is no actual ruling yet, but a triad member hinted that they will be allowed in the city - after paying a special kobold-tail-tax ;) - on the other hand, NPCs in the adri might just KOS any kind of kobold due to very bad experience with humanoid critters, especcially in the army of prince molil who tries to claim the adri as part of his fiefdom :P very unsuccessful so far. ciao martin m.
Hariman 08-06-07, 08:19 PM	I've been warned never to bring my Kobold into Keoland or the Sheldomar Valley. But that might be because it's one of the tougher regions/metaregions. I suspect that the Iuz and Bandit Kingdoms regions (or metaregions) might not care about whether or not someone is a Kobold. EDIT: Warned by other more experienced players/one of the local DMs.
_metz_ 08-06-07, 09:50 PM	I've been warned never to bring my Kobold into Keoland or the Sheldomar Valley. But that might be because it's one of the tougher regions/metaregions. I suspect that the Iuz and Bandit Kingdoms regions (or metaregions) might not care about whether or not someone is a Kobold. Metaregions might not. I am surprised you have been told not to bring a Kobold to Keoland though, that has nothing to do with being tough. Hopefully the triad have justified this decision and they are not just being control freaks. I know many gamers who once they have some control are very wary of someone going very their heads over anything, or doing things with sanction from elsewhere and this spreads to more than just LG! (Though the original Armidale Bookshop LG organizers were apparently guilty of this, though I didn't witness it too much) Ratik has currently left it up to discussion with Triad stepping in a bit later in the piece though the tone of much of the discussion is along the lines of "maybe the NPCs will not randomly slaughter Kobold PCs if they pretend to be slaves of a PC with rank in Ratik, unless the NPC is a gnome of course in which case the kobold is a deadset goner" Well slight exagerration :) but you get the idea. Controversial enough for me to not bother with a kobold PC anyway. Totally agreed. I have decided to get out of the arguments. They don't seem to be very seriously based in any case, rather 'what my PC wants to do'. I don't think I will be playing a Kobold in any region where there is an unnecessary opportunity for in game player or GM abuse. I got a little frustrated that people were taking the notion of 'kobolds have to be another PCs property' as a serious idea, but hey, no sense getting riled up now. I feel that there does need to be some regional justification/reactions/rules for Kobolds, especially in Ratik where the Gnomes DO have a bit of power, but some people are reading Races of the Stone/Dragon too literally, like textbooks rather than non canon source stuff that isn't necessarily greyhawk, and applying it too liberally.
ToddMorgan 08-06-07, 10:12 PM	Kobolds are perfectly welcome within the City of Sails. In fact, Laddie Crockhandle, head of the Dyvers Vermin and Pest Contractors, is a kobold. There is also a PC that has a regional cert allowing the play of Smiley the Kobold from Year 1 that is still active as I recall. Welcome to Dyvers. -From a member of the Dyvers Triad. I love living in the City of Sails!!!
Ralis 08-06-07, 10:29 PM	In the Shield Lands, Kobald characters start with "Wanted by the Council" Status. On they're first AR, They are held by the council of lords for 4 TU while they decide if the Kobold is a threat to the Shield Lands, if they're good they are then released with a Tatoo marking them as a "non-threat." Neutral Kobolds are held for an additional 4 TU (For a total of 8) Before recieving the same Tatoo.
Hariman 08-06-07, 10:33 PM	Metaregions might not. I am surprised you have been told not to bring a Kobold to Keoland though, that has nothing to do with being tough. Hopefully the triad have justified this decision and they are not just being control freaks. I know many gamers who once they have some control are very wary of someone going very their heads over anything, or doing things with sanction from elsewhere and this spreads to more than just LG! (Though the original Armidale Bookshop LG organizers were apparently guilty of this, though I didn't witness it too much) Um, I'm sorry, I should have made it clear that the warning wasn't from a triad member. It actually came from one of the "old hats" in my gaming group. I suspect it's on the basis of how much rougher the Keoland and Sheldomar Valley mods are. Consider this: I've had 5 LG character deaths. 4 are from Keoland or Sheldomar Valley mods. The other is from Dominion over BS. I"ll be playing my Kobold below his level if I play him in any regionals or metaregionals. Hariman PS: I should note that in the first intro mod that I played, Kobolds were one of the main enemies. That was a Keoland intro mod.
Ancillary 08-06-07, 11:12 PM	Predjudice is one thing. It has already been written into one gran march mod that non-military kobalds simply cannot participate in the mod.
trollbill 08-07-07, 12:57 AM	Here is the official Kobold statement for the Principality of Ulek: Recently, a number of kobolds have appeared in the Principality of Ulek claiming to be from the Mist Kingdoms of the Pearl Ocean. These kobolds are assumed to have come to the Principality searching out the Ancient Wyrm copper dragon known to some as Kaihonreidwur. Intrigued by the metallic appearance of these little dragonbloods, Kaihonreidwur has personally vouched for these kobolds and has given those who have decided to settle in the Principality' s hills near his lair outside Havenhill a token of his esteem: a small copper harp embellished with the letter K. Mist Kingdom kobolds carrying these symbols are allowed to freely enter all the major cities of the Principality, and are expected to follow the letter and spirit of the law and to understand that they may face prejudice from many quarters after so many years of war in the Disputed Territory. Some of these kobolds have even entered service into the Principality of Ulek Armed Forces, serving equally well as tunnel scouts and deckhands. Impressed with their cleverness and dedication to service, many in the Army and Navy are welcoming this new force. Elsewhere, kobolds can expect rougher treatment: • The Temple Hegemony (in particular the faithful of the Gnomish pantheon), the Keepers of the Soul Forged, the Church of Ulaa and most especially the Talons of Retribution have all denounced the appearance of these kobolds and question the "coincidental" timeliness of their arrival in regards to finally being close to freeing the so-called Disputed Territories. The Temple of Celestian, long proponents of reformed evil humanoids and others typically called 'monsters' has removed itself from the Temple Hegemony in protest. • Count Imiric von Suss-Varren of Prinzfeld has announced a bounty on kobold tails of one gold forge (1gp) per tail, and promises "no questions asked" upon receipt. • A small group of kobolds vanished from the streets of Greutam, and as is usual in the city "nobody saw anything". The only eyewitness, a notorious drunk who has since disappeared himself, claimed that a huge spider darted out from an alley and dragged them into the sewers. A couple of notes, OOC: Mist Kingdom kobolds with Principality of Ulek residency must register with the Principality of Ulek triad: send an e-mail to michaeltlh@gmail. com for more information. You will be sent a printable cert showing proof of your warrant of safety from Kaihonreidwur. Currently, Mist Kingdom kobold non-residents have no legal protections. For example: "It growled at me." is a sufficient defense for any NPC to slay any non-resident or unregistered resident kobold. Mist Kingdom non-resident kobolds (or unregistered kobold residents) accused of a crime can expect very severe penalties up to and including incarceration, assignment to a work-gang, or execution. Being unprotected means they do not receive a trial and will be considered guilty before innocent. The only exception to this rule (currently) is any Gran March resident kobold who is a member of the Gran March Armed Forces. While the Temple of Celestian has withdrawn from the Hegemony, PCs are still able to gain whatever benefits (or penalties) joining that particular organization would entail. It is merely a political protest (for now). For the "Bounty" on tails: a DMs note should be made on each AR wherein a tail is collected. They can then be turned in at certain announced interactives during late CY597 and CY598. Please note: if you fight (for example) six kobolds in a scenario, only six 'tails' can be collected per TABLE and not per character. Please use common sense in collection and distribution. Long story short: if you play a kobold and want to live in Ulek, be sure to register, join the Army, and stay out of Prinzfeld. *grin*
Puggle Halfwine 08-07-07, 02:01 AM	much of the discussion is along the lines of "maybe the NPCs will not randomly slaughter Kobold PCs if they pretend to be slaves of a PC with rank in Ratik, unless the NPC is a gnome of course in which case the kobold is a deadset goner". Um. WHAT?! That's NOT what was being said at all...! I don't think I will be playing a Kobold in any region where there is an unnecessary opportunity for in game player or GM abuse. I got a little frustrated that people were taking the notion of 'kobolds have to be another PCs property' as a serious idea Wait wait wait. Once again: WHAT?! NOBODY was saying that- NOBODY. Not me, not Chris, NOBODY. It was raised as one POSSIBLE way to handle it- allow me to bring up the actual quote... One possible way to ... [handle] ... this is for a non-kobold character to claim the kobold as theirs in some manner - the way the kobold's allies can have the same rights defending the kobold as they would defending their possessions (although an attempt to kill the kobold would still be seen by the law as the equivalent of poaching or vandalism rather than attempted murder). However, if the kobold attempts to defend themselves using lethal force, it becomes a vicious animal that needs to be put down for public safety in the eyes of the law- if the kobold doesn't belong to somebody, there's no crime to attacking it (just as if it was, say, a boar in the woods- and if a particular boar starts killing hunters, wouldn't the local town want it taken out to stop it from killing more?) and if it does belong to someone it's like having a vicious dog- if the dog starts causing trouble, it needs to be put down. All of this was IMPRESSION. There was no serious, "This kobold is my slave. You can't kill it." ... it would be a simple, "He's with me." Sure, some PCs might adopt this- and some might not. It was just an IDEA. This was Chris' take on the issue. Chris being a player, not triad, not circle- just a player. I said I agreed with his take on it- that it was an interesting and unique approach to dealing with it that didn't break suspension of disbelief in Ratik. I, myself, am just a player too- I have NO authority either. We weren't laying down the law, speaking from upon high as though this was the ONE AND ONLY way to deal with this- just a suggestion. One that makes sense, but certainly not the ONLY way to approach this. Ratik is a backwards, superstitious place- there IS racism, there ARE monster attacks (ie orcs, etc), the gnomes are a powerful faction here. Like I said on the mailing list- if there's one place that kobolds should NOT feel welcome, this is probably it. There IS slavery in Greyhawk. It exists. Sure, Ratik is a very chaotic nation- which is why they have no formal slavery (except possibly among the various 'monster' races such as gnolls, orcs, etc). Yet in Ratik, LIFE IS NOT FAIR. There are nobles who rule based on their status within society, there are downtrodden, powerless peasants, there are knights on horseback and all kinds of fare like that. The idea that someone can create a proud, arrogant, cocky kobold who just marches around on the streets as though he owns them seems to go against this kind of environment. It is my humble suggestion that anyone who plays that kind of character, much like anyone who plays a character who brutally murders anyone who won't give them all the information they seek, will not survive long. To put a real world spin on things, let's take our Kobold example and put it into perspective... let's take the following hypothetical situation. ************* Itsuma Tanaka was a Japanese-Australian living in Darwin in 1942, prior to the bombings that took place there. Tanaka is a third generation Australian- he barely even speaks any Japanese. Yet the Empire of Japan is at war with Australia and its allies- despite having a lot of friends in Darwin, especially his co-workers in the pearl industry, Tanaka often finds that he is the victim of discrimination. Last week, for instance, he was down at the pub when a bunch of drunken idiots called him a traitor, threw beer coasters at him and generally made his life misrible. He knew that if he fought back he'd be arrested, then the corrupt law enforcement would throw the book at him for "being Japanese in a public place". Fortunately, his mates Greg, Davo and Mike were there to shove back. "Taka's with us mate," they said, "He's a top sort- you just leave him the hell alone!" The drunken morons backed away, but Tanaka was quite worried. He was proud to be Japanese- proud of his heritage- but he also wasn't an idiot. He knew that the whole town was hostile to him because of the war and it caused a whole host of problems. So Tanaka had to go everywhere with his friends. He was quite capable of defending himself, but he knew that even if he did, he would still 'lose'. The irony was, of course, that although Tanaka worked a full time job diving for pearls during the day, while the rest of the city was off drinking a the pub, he also spent his nights on the work team responsible for assembling Darwin's Anti-Aircraft batteries to protect the same people who called him a traitor. So he knew that earning the respect of these people would be extremely difficult, even though he was doing far more than most of them every would to defend Darwin. Then, one day, the Japanese bombed Darwin. Many lives were lost. Tanaka survived, however, but only to face the wrath of his fellow citizens. "Your people bombed us, you bastard!" they said, but his mates stood firm- "Taka's not one of them, leave him alone. He's a good person. If you want to shoot him, you're going to have to shoot us first." Again, the people backed down, if grudgingly. Tanaka's work on the air defenses was well known- he had earned many friends during the six months before the bombings and many people had put aside their prejudices of him. He'd earned their respect. However, one of the anti-aircraft guns had jammed during the battle. His remaining opponents had seized upon this opportunity to blame him for it's "sabotage"- despite having set up four or five guns on his own (which worked perfectly). It was clear that Tanaka was no traitor, although some people just refused to be convinced and some of those people were quite influential. No matter how much Tanaka tried, no matter how much he worked, some people simply could not see past the fact that he was Japanese and therefore could be nothing else but a traitor. Tanaka was not a 'slave' by any means- but he needed the word of the locals to avoid the mob. "He's with us," his mates would say. And it was true- Tanaka and his mates drank together, they worked together, and during the battle they all bled the same red blood- Tanaka was not helpless, but in this situation, he NEEDED his mates to protect him from prejudice and bigotry. ************* This is the kind of situation I imagine Kobolds living in. The kobold's peers treat him with respect, as an equal, but sometimes they need to 'put on a show'. And that's all it is- a show.
Genghis Cohen 08-07-07, 07:44 AM	There has not been an official Keoland stance on Kobolds yet. One of the Triad members did post this on July 30th: ==================================== http://groups.yahoo.com/group/keoland/message/43884 Keoland Triad: Kobold Infestation! Hail Keoland! I would expect that the Circle and HQ will provide some more clarification to the playing of the (Kobold) race card in LG! :) I am hoping that a Dispel Confusion may soon show up to clarify the situation. My thoughts (and only my thoughts) are that kobolds PCs would create a variety of responses in Keoland, depending upon where and under what circumstances they are encountered. Kobolds have had the opportunity to be dealt with in a positive manner in mods and interactives in the Good Hills around New Silverdeep. There may be other areas that would welcome them. They would certainly be treated with suspicion at best in most areas of Keoland, and would likely be strung up over a tree limb on sight in most of rural Keoland. So let's just see what the powers that be have to say before we go getting our drawers all bunched up. I'm suggesting a pause in this discussion until we have further direction. Thanks, Dave Guerrieri, Keoland Triad ====================================
Madfox11 08-07-07, 07:44 AM	In Sunndi the law protects any sentient creature except bullywugs, fiends and undead. Of course, the chaotic tendencies of the Sunndians does mean it is not entirely predictable whether or not the locals follow those laws. Having a couple of strong trustworthy friends who are willing to vouch for you certainly would be useful. Once you proved your worth though, you wouldn't face much prejudice. The Ahlissan governments in general would probably treat kobolds with disdain and prejudice, but they would not persecute kobolds on principal. Some of the princes have orcs in their armies, others make deals with sahuagin or fiends, so what would the occasional kobold matter? At least the kobolds are lawful and they are excellent miners. They make great slaves. Just remember though that the different princes have great automony and treatment varies greatly depending on where you are, who your friends are and how much gold you have.
_metz_ 08-07-07, 08:17 AM	Um. WHAT?! That's NOT what was being said at all...! Wait wait wait. Once again: WHAT?! NOBODY was saying that- NOBODY. Not me, not Chris, NOBODY. It was raised as one POSSIBLE way to handle it- allow me to bring up the actual quote... Yes, but you have applied the best case scenario, or one which you have envisioned. Not the worst case scenario. One must always look at the lowest common denominator when making rulings Dave, and the previous suggestion did not take that into account, and wasn't at all viable as a regional rule imho. I have already expressed my views on that, so no need to repeat them. There is a reason more than one person identified the worst case scenario immediately and weren't impressed by it. As I previously stated, what fits your character concept doesn't others. Lets not also forget that in your example Australia was at War with the Japanese, Ratik is not at war with a Kobold nation. There is a difference. Please remember that.
Zanzibax 08-07-07, 09:06 AM	Imagine: A Kobold Nation No, kobolds are usually raiders and lethal parasites in every land. Because they are tribal organizations they don't tend to have nation-status. What they do have is a fecundity on par with rats...and a reputation going back millenia.
Simpi 08-07-07, 09:46 AM	The Ahlissan governments in general would probably treat kobolds with disdain and prejudice, but they would not persecute kobolds on principal. Some of the princes have orcs in their armies, others make deals with sahuagin or fiends, so what would the occasional kobold matter? At least the kobolds are lawful and they are excellent miners. They make great slaves. Just remember though that the different princes have great automony and treatment varies greatly depending on where you are, who your friends are and how much gold you have. In Naerie we will give social penalties on charisma based skills with normal residents (and most likely some in-module penalties occasionally) and if tried in court of law, Kobolds cannot appeal for reduced sentence because Idee had "issues" with things like kobolds. When dealing with purely ahlissan organizations, such as Hextorites, there will not be penalty because these people have seen worse. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
TWG_Prometheus 08-07-07, 10:40 AM	Just curious what the different Regional stances are on Kobolds ... I'm rather dissappointed with Nyronds stance ... maybe its just me but I'm looking to see if its as bad in other regions .. the Link to the Document can be found here URL Created with TinyURL http://tinyurl.com/yvb85e There's a few things that are going on here that you might not be considering. In my view, the Kolbolds are getting the lenient end of the stick in Nyrond with this ruling: #1 - Nyrond is a Lawful Neutral nation with tendencies toward Lawful Good. This is partly why the Kolbolds aren't killed on sight. (quite) If you notice in the document, it always says that the Kolbolds have to do something they're not supposed to in order to get in trouble with the law. In general though, the highly Lawful nature of Nyrond made it unlikely that we'd get an anything-goes ruling to start with. #2 - Nyrond does not have nice Kolbolds. Every other Kolbold you meet around here is the type that sticks people with sharp pointy things if you give them half a chance. What the ruling does is give the Kolbold a chance. They have to be very careful around cities and it's not advisable at all for them to try and sneak around the restrictions placed on them. If they only go by what they're allowed to do and behave themselves, however, they can get by even in the biggest of Nyrond's cities. The thing that helps Kolbolds the most, however, is that there's a way out. You can eventually obtain citizenship, although it's not an easy road to achieve that. It's a hard path for Nyrond Kolbolds to walk, but it's awesome that they can eventually achieve legitimacy...or at least try to. That's awesome roleplaying potential. Builds that have high Diplomacy would help.
Harliquinn 08-07-07, 10:51 AM	Has Veluna made a ruling yet?
Zanzibax 08-07-07, 11:00 AM	This is merely Kurtulmak's latest gambit. Replacement of the goodly races by befriending them and breeding them out of existence.
solbergb 08-07-07, 11:56 AM	The Pale Triad is leaning toward "They're like anyone else who isn't Pholtan - we'll tolerate them as long as they don't break any laws." Although there is some bandying about of an idea of actually inviting Lawful kobolds to join and help with the cleanup of Winterwind and to ward against the Great Green of the Gamboge. The arcanists guild may need more draconic lore than they have given how we've been threatened by dragons in the past. I think that's mostly joking, but perhaps not if neighboring regions persecute their kobold heroes.
Bogjob 08-07-07, 01:01 PM	[QUOTE=Madfox11;13333005] At least the kobolds are lawful and they are excellent miners. QUOTE] Hehe. Why does 'You no take candle' spring to mind :)
Hariman 08-07-07, 01:37 PM	There has not been an official Keoland stance on Kobolds yet. One of the Triad members did post this on July 30th: ==================================== http://groups.yahoo.com/group/keoland/message/43884 Keoland Triad: Kobold Infestation! Hail Keoland! I would expect that the Circle and HQ will provide some more clarification to the playing of the (Kobold) race card in LG! :) I am hoping that a Dispel Confusion may soon show up to clarify the situation. My thoughts (and only my thoughts) are that kobolds PCs would create a variety of responses in Keoland, depending upon where and under what circumstances they are encountered. Kobolds have had the opportunity to be dealt with in a positive manner in mods and interactives in the Good Hills around New Silverdeep. There may be other areas that would welcome them. They would certainly be treated with suspicion at best in most areas of Keoland, and would likely be strung up over a tree limb on sight in most of rural Keoland. So let's just see what the powers that be have to say before we go getting our drawers all bunched up. I'm suggesting a pause in this discussion until we have further direction. Thanks, Dave Guerrieri, Keoland Triad ==================================== It's the waiting that's the hard part.
GreatSiron 08-07-07, 01:53 PM	The Yeomanry Triad just made it's annoncement, and it's not good: Spears high and ears open! Kobolds in larger numbers have begun appearing throughout the Flanness. Be wary. Any good yeoman spotting these thieving vermin should inform the nearest militia watchpost, that they be driven from our midst or taken into custody. Several of late have surrendered peacefully, but the creatures should still be viewed as potentially dangerous. They do not make good pets and are not permitted as pets! They are known to bite and some carry diseases. Be watchful, be wary, spears high! <Scrawled in draconic along the baseboards behind some inns.. My silver-scaled brethren and others of like mind, time is our friend and impatience our enemy. Do not seek to fight these big ones and they might not kill you. Submit and show them that you are not what they fear. Fight them and you give them reason to slay you. The Great One has said that we must prove our worth by obeying and not fighting. Prove your worth for all the hatchlings that may follow.> Out-of-Character Play Notes: 1) Kobolds are monsters until proven otherwise. Peoples of the Yeomanry will respond accordingly if they see and recognize a kobold. As such, kobolds are forced to Hide or Disguise themselves as a gnome or halfling pretty much at all times. They must Hide/Disguise themselves both from the commoners as well as from their fellow players. In order to do this, they must achieve a DC 17 Hide or Disguise to fool commoners' Spot checks and an opposed roll against fellow Player Characters' Spot checks. The die must be rolled (no taking 10 or taking 20), and the check must be made once every time the kobold character enters a new encounter [read: Encounter 1, Encounter 2, etc.] where they can be observed by commoners or other characters who might report them, rolling once for all the NPCs in any given encounter. Judges may modify that by the standard +/-4 circumstance bonus as they see fit, such as for large crowds or particularly suspicious guards. Rolls against Player Characters are opposed rolls made individually against each observing PC, up to once per Encounter.) Be aware that some areas and towns may be more prejudiced than others toward kobolds. (see the note after 2b) 2) If a kobold character fails a hide or disguise check, then the DM provides it with the following options: a) Flee: It tries to escape. The locals will call on a tracker to try and apprehend the kobold. The best tracker currently in the area will have a random +1d20 bonus to their Survival checks to track. If a Player Character member of the militia or military is present with the track skill and their ability is better than that of the local tracker, they are expected to perform the Tracking while the local tracker will assist. Other player character trackers may assist in the pursuit if they feel so inclined, but are not obligated to assist as militia and military are. The character kobold must use either a Hide, Bluff, or Survival check of its own (only one can be used and it must be decided before the roll) to oppose the Survival check made with the randomly determined bonus. If the kobold succeeds, it successfully escapes. If the kobold fails, it is tracked down and captured. Forcing the Yeomanry to expend resources to capture and release kobolds increases the amount of service required of the creature by 1d10 TUs. Whether the kobold succeeds in escaping or not, the module is over for that player at this time and they receive any experience and access that they would have acquired up to that point only. b)Submit: The kobold is arrested and incarcerated for 2d10 TUs (it will receive 1d10 extra TUs if it tried to flee and failed) of hard labor before being 'paroled' and told never to come to the Yeomanry again or escaping confinement, as the character chooses. They are stripped of any magical weapons that will not be returned. Such items are considered contraband in the possession of such a creature. This imprisonment can be repeated again and again. (Please note: In especially prejudiced areas, choosing to submit will be choosing to be killed. This is due to long-standing and historically-precedented animosity that will not be likely to change within a generation, even. A mention in the blurb will indicate when this is the case by noting extreme hostility against kobolds.) 3) Fighting back is not an option. Choosing to fight is choosing to have submission forced upon you. You will serve the maximum sentence of 30 TUs , which includes the maximum extra time given for fleeing, due to costs of apprehension, incarceration, and extra security for so obviously dangerous a creature. 4) Player characters may choose to turn in kobold PCs to the watch or militia, and lawful ones should feel compelled to do so. Militia, Military, and Freeguard (when it becomes official) are authorized to drive away or to arrest kobolds who do not flee, as the proclamation points out. Doing so is a Lawful act, but is not required by law unless on active duty (Freeguards are always on duty). To be clear on this, if a kobold chooses to flee they must be allowed to do so just as with NPCs. If the kobold chooses not to flee or fails to flee, they are arrested. There is no need for PC vs. PC combat in either instance. 5) Given enough time and evidence, opinions and laws in the Yeomanry are subject to change. 6) The Yeomanry does not encourage players to choose as characters kobolds, though it is recognized as a legal option to play. Players who choose kobolds for characters should expect that life will likely be extremely difficult for quite some time, especially based on historical prejudices. Players of Lawful and/or Good Kobolds are encouraged to consider the truths of non-violent civil disobedience. While the character may spend half or more of their available time each year in penal service to the Yeomanry, what they show Yeomanry citizens of the willingness of some kobolds to submit to Yeomanry law will likely do more to change hearts and minds than any act of violence ever would. A preponderance of Chaotic, Neutral, and fleeing kobolds, however, will only seek to strengthen the current opinions. Consider this if you choose to play a kobold under these stipulations. This announcement is effective immediately. Yeah, I figured as much.:(
Zarron 08-07-07, 01:59 PM	I don't understand; because in one of the other threads it was mentioned that these kobolds have, effectively, "always been there, we just haven't seen them." So they aren't a multitude of kobolds coming out from nowhere, they've always been there (in fact, can't they play modules from a year or so ago? So, it is feasible that they've, at least, been around a year or so)?
KShaver 08-07-07, 02:02 PM	We need a kobold only region that persecutes overbearing triad members on sight. I just don't see a reason to make things as difficult as some regions are: In the Shield Lands, Kobald characters start with "Wanted by the Council" Status. On they're first AR, They are held by the council of lords for 4 TU while they decide if the Kobold is a threat to the Shield Lands, if they're good they are then released with a Tatoo marking them as a "non-threat." Neutral Kobolds are held for an additional 4 TU (For a total of 8) Before recieving the same Tatoo. This is at least semi-reasonable, though totally uncalled for. Intrigued by the metallic appearance of these little dragonbloods, Kaihonreidwur has personally vouched for these kobolds and has given those who have decided to settle in the Principality' s hills near his lair outside Havenhill a token of his esteem: a small copper harp embellished with the letter K. Mist Kingdom kobolds carrying these symbols are allowed to freely enter all the major cities of the Principality, and are expected to follow the letter and spirit of the law and to understand that they may face prejudice from many quarters after so many years of war in the Disputed Territory. Mist Kingdom kobolds with Principality of Ulek residency must register with the Principality of Ulek triad: send an e-mail to michaeltlh@gmail. com for more information. You will be sent a printable cert showing proof of your warrant of safety from Kaihonreidwur. Currently, Mist Kingdom kobold non-residents have no legal protections. For example: "It growled at me." is a sufficient defense for any NPC to slay any non-resident or unregistered resident kobold. Mist Kingdom non-resident kobolds (or unregistered kobold residents) accused of a crime can expect very severe penalties up to and including incarceration, assignment to a work-gang, or execution. Being unprotected means they do not receive a trial and will be considered guilty before innocent. The only exception to this rule (currently) is any Gran March resident kobold who is a member of the Gran March Armed Forces. Now this is a bit much. Personally if I lived in this region, I'd start as many kobolds as possible, and not register them with the triad. Then I'd write all sorts of mods and submit them, all cleverly written to to disguise the fact that completing them without a kobold present is impossible.
Genghis Cohen 08-07-07, 02:05 PM	The Yeomanry Triad just made it's annoncement, and it's not good: Spears high and ears open! Kobolds in larger numbers have begun appearing throughout the Flanness. Be wary. Any good yeoman spotting these thieving vermin should inform the nearest militia watchpost, that they be driven from our midst or taken into custody. Several of late have surrendered peacefully, but the creatures should still be viewed as potentially dangerous. They do not make good pets and are not permitted as pets! They are known to bite and some carry diseases. Be watchful, be wary, spears high! <Scrawled in draconic along the baseboards behind some inns.. My silver-scaled brethren and others of like mind, time is our friend and impatience our enemy. Do not seek to fight these big ones and they might not kill you. Submit and show them that you are not what they fear. Fight them and you give them reason to slay you. The Great One has said that we must prove our worth by obeying and not fighting. Prove your worth for all the hatchlings that may follow.> Out-of-Character Play Notes: 1) Kobolds are monsters until proven otherwise. Peoples of the Yeomanry will respond accordingly if they see and recognize a kobold. As such, kobolds are forced to Hide or Disguise themselves as a gnome or halfling pretty much at all times. They must Hide/Disguise themselves both from the commoners as well as from their fellow players. In order to do this, they must achieve a DC 17 Hide or Disguise to fool commoners' Spot checks and an opposed roll against fellow Player Characters' Spot checks. The die must be rolled (no taking 10 or taking 20), and the check must be made once every time the kobold character enters a new encounter [read: Encounter 1, Encounter 2, etc.] where they can be observed by commoners or other characters who might report them, rolling once for all the NPCs in any given encounter. Judges may modify that by the standard +/-4 circumstance bonus as they see fit, such as for large crowds or particularly suspicious guards. Rolls against Player Characters are opposed rolls made individually against each observing PC, up to once per Encounter.) Be aware that some areas and towns may be more prejudiced than others toward kobolds. (see the note after 2b) 2) If a kobold character fails a hide or disguise check, then the DM provides it with the following options: a) Flee: It tries to escape. The locals will call on a tracker to try and apprehend the kobold. The best tracker currently in the area will have a random +1d20 bonus to their Survival checks to track. If a Player Character member of the militia or military is present with the track skill and their ability is better than that of the local tracker, they are expected to perform the Tracking while the local tracker will assist. Other player character trackers may assist in the pursuit if they feel so inclined, but are not obligated to assist as militia and military are. The character kobold must use either a Hide, Bluff, or Survival check of its own (only one can be used and it must be decided before the roll) to oppose the Survival check made with the randomly determined bonus. If the kobold succeeds, it successfully escapes. If the kobold fails, it is tracked down and captured. Forcing the Yeomanry to expend resources to capture and release kobolds increases the amount of service required of the creature by 1d10 TUs. Whether the kobold succeeds in escaping or not, the module is over for that player at this time and they receive any experience and access that they would have acquired up to that point only. b)Submit: The kobold is arrested and incarcerated for 2d10 TUs (it will receive 1d10 extra TUs if it tried to flee and failed) of hard labor before being 'paroled' and told never to come to the Yeomanry again or escaping confinement, as the character chooses. They are stripped of any magical weapons that will not be returned. Such items are considered contraband in the possession of such a creature. This imprisonment can be repeated again and again. (Please note: In especially prejudiced areas, choosing to submit will be choosing to be killed. This is due to long-standing and historically-precedented animosity that will not be likely to change within a generation, even. A mention in the blurb will indicate when this is the case by noting extreme hostility against kobolds.) 3) Fighting back is not an option. Choosing to fight is choosing to have submission forced upon you. You will serve the maximum sentence of 30 TUs , which includes the maximum extra time given for fleeing, due to costs of apprehension, incarceration, and extra security for so obviously dangerous a creature. 4) Player characters may choose to turn in kobold PCs to the watch or militia, and lawful ones should feel compelled to do so. Militia, Military, and Freeguard (when it becomes official) are authorized to drive away or to arrest kobolds who do not flee, as the proclamation points out. Doing so is a Lawful act, but is not required by law unless on active duty (Freeguards are always on duty). To be clear on this, if a kobold chooses to flee they must be allowed to do so just as with NPCs. If the kobold chooses not to flee or fails to flee, they are arrested. There is no need for PC vs. PC combat in either instance. 5) Given enough time and evidence, opinions and laws in the Yeomanry are subject to change. 6) The Yeomanry does not encourage players to choose as characters kobolds, though it is recognized as a legal option to play. Players who choose kobolds for characters should expect that life will likely be extremely difficult for quite some time, especially based on historical prejudices. Players of Lawful and/or Good Kobolds are encouraged to consider the truths of non-violent civil disobedience. While the character may spend half or more of their available time each year in penal service to the Yeomanry, what they show Yeomanry citizens of the willingness of some kobolds to submit to Yeomanry law will likely do more to change hearts and minds than any act of violence ever would. A preponderance of Chaotic, Neutral, and fleeing kobolds, however, will only seek to strengthen the current opinions. Consider this if you choose to play a kobold under these stipulations. This announcement is effective immediately. Yeah, I figured as much.:( While I applaud the Yeomanry Triad for preserving their regional flavor, I'm surprised that they provided no option for Kobold PCs to use charisma based skills to stay out of trouble.
Banor 08-07-07, 02:09 PM	I feel that the Yeomanry Triad is making a very bad move. Kobold PCs were offered to the players and are a legal option. How would people react if a Triad would decide that no cleric were allowed in their region ? or no fighter ? or that all Barbarian must make bluffs check to fool people thinking they are Lawful fighter or get imprisonned for 10 TUs ? This ispretty much the same ruling that is being made right now.... Drawback are ok as long as they are reasonable ; Social checks penality, higher fines/TU cost when arrested etc... Auto-arrest by other PCs for massive TUs (2-20) plus confiscation of magical weapons is just plain unfair... I'm glad that here in Tusmit it will be more reasonable
Harliquinn 08-07-07, 02:12 PM	The Yeomanry Triad just made it's annoncement, and it's not good: Spears high and ears open! ...Lot of stuff deleted( The Yeomanry Triad may want to check with RPGA headquarters, as I've been told that you can't outright ban or make immediate jail or imprisonment the only options for Kobolds. This is just about bordering on "If you fail a single roll, you're out of the module" edge of things. I also don't think the confiscation of all property falls within what a Triad can do with a legal character.
Zarron 08-07-07, 02:14 PM	The Yeomanry Triad may want to check with RPGA headquarters, as I've been told that you can't outright ban or make immediate jail or imprisonment the only options for Kobolds. This is just about bordering on "If you fail a single roll, you're out of the module" edge of things. I also don't think the confiscation of all property falls within what a Triad can do with a legal character. On top of that, I'm getting the impression that Lawful Good and Lawful Neutral characters would almost be unable to travel with kobolds at all -- which will cause all sorts of trouble for ALI dependent classes (like the Paladin), and for filling out tables. "I'd like to play, but my Lawful Neutral character would almost have to try and capture your character, and I'd rather not do that or break character."
KShaver 08-07-07, 02:27 PM	The Yeomanry Triad just made it's annoncement, and it's not good: ...announcement... This announcement is effective immediately. Yeah, I figured as much.:( Email your triad, that ruling is the worst yet. It allows any player who hates kobolds (and has PC with a decent spot check) to, at thier own whim, enforce harsh penalties on those who play kobolds. Someone is going to do this just to be an ass (someone always does), and there are going to be some very upset players on the receiving end of this.
Samwise 08-07-07, 02:33 PM	While I applaud the Yeomanry Triad for preserving their regional flavor, I'm surprised that they provided no option for Kobold PCs to use charisma based skills to stay out of trouble. I'm more suprised by all the commoners with 5 ranks in Spot and a 14 Wisdom running around the Yeomanry. (Since they seem to be taking 10 and getting a 17. Of course if that includes the -2 for a disguise as a different race, then they only have 4 ranks in Spot and a 12 Wisdom as standard, but it should be noted that the -2 modifier doesn't apply to the Kobold.) Of course either is still significantly higher than the recommended +1 modifier to be used for large crowds to see through a disguise, but then you are also supposed to be allowed to take 10 with a Disguise check, and that isn't being allowed for some reason.
GeorgeFHarris 08-07-07, 02:45 PM	The Yeomanry Triad just made it's annoncement, and it's not good: ... Hmm, this makes me want to make a PC Kobold in my home region of Gran March. Of course, most Kobolds are considered undesirables in Gran March, which means any provocation (either imagined or real) can get them into real trouble. The exception is for Military Kobold PCs. They would be afforded the same rights granted to other Military PCs in Gran March. And after they finish their service, they are granted citizenship. Also, Yeomanry has a military treaty with Gran March. Do they really want to risk violating this treaty by arresting Gran March soldiers that happen to be in the Yeomanry? GH
solbergb 08-07-07, 02:47 PM	The Yeomanry Triad may want to check with RPGA headquarters, as I've been told that you can't outright ban or make immediate jail or imprisonment the only options for Kobolds. This is just about bordering on "If you fail a single roll, you're out of the module" edge of things. I also don't think the confiscation of all property falls within what a Triad can do with a legal character. Yeah, the "no take 10 on disguise checks" thing is also stupid, since it is actually a legal mechanic for, say, disguising your gnome as a kobold to operate in Highport in certain core modules. Last I heard triads didn't get to rewrite the rules of D&D mechanics.
Mommy was an Orc 08-07-07, 02:48 PM	I'm more suprised by all the commoners with 5 ranks in Spot and a 14 Wisdom running around the Yeomanry. (Since they seem to be taking 10 and getting a 17. Of course if that includes the -2 for a disguise as a different race, then they only have 4 ranks in Spot and a 12 Wisdom as standard, but it should be noted that the -2 modifier doesn't apply to the Kobold.) Of course either is still significantly higher than the recommended +1 modifier to be used for large crowds to see through a disguise, but then you are also supposed to be allowed to take 10 with a Disguise check, and that isn't being allowed for some reason. Perhaps they're members of the meta-org that grants bonuses to spot Kobolds? WHACK 'EM(We Hate Annoying Craven Kobolds. Eradicate the Monsters!)? That's actually kind of nice of them - 5 commoners with no ranks in Spot and 10 Wisdom - one of them should be expected to roll a 17+ 68% of the time.
Reylance 08-07-07, 02:53 PM	Here's what I've found from the various Living Greyhawk lists so far: Dyvers: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/dyvers/message/15952 Gran March: (tentative) http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/GranMarch/message/32492 Keoland: (tentative) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/keoland/message/43884 Nyrond: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/Nyrond-lw/message/16720 http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/ILO4RlodXg526EFcKxTqlPbgPN0MDRQDGOkF8Z6Q NIZ-peJORnAgO3f1ySzbrvsC6Au_BeRT_haafSzu9xIQ V6gLhBCG/Kobold%20PCs%20in%20the%20Kingdom%20of%2 0Nyrond.pdf Theocracy of the Pale: (tentative) http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/ThePale/message/21525 Principality of Ulek: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/pou-discussion/message/3139 County of Urnst: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/CountyofUrnst/message/17565 Yeomanry: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/yeomanry/message/18315
Mithreinmaethor 08-07-07, 02:56 PM	Email your triad, that ruling is the worst yet. It allows any player who hates kobolds (and has PC with a decent spot check) to, at thier own whim, enforce harsh penalties on those who play kobolds. Someone is going to do this just to be an ass (someone always does), and there are going to be some very upset players on the receiving end of this. Its not my region but I have drawn up my disposable Gnome Kobold Killing Rangers. Kill a Kobold, hand character to GM to be removed. Change name on character sheet start the circle over again and again
GreatSiron 08-07-07, 03:05 PM	On top of that, I'm getting the impression that Lawful Good and Lawful Neutral characters would almost be unable to travel with kobolds at all -- which will cause all sorts of trouble for ALI dependent classes (like the Paladin), and for filling out tables. "I'd like to play, but my Lawful Neutral character would almost have to try and capture your character, and I'd rather not do that or break character." On the other hand, my Chaotic Good character will walk from the table if someone from the groups TRIES to turn one in. "You turn this poor creature that's been helping us in, and I'LL leave. Good luck saving the Yeomanry on your own!"
CdrcJsn 08-07-07, 03:10 PM	Its not my region but I have drawn up my disposable Gnome Kobold Killing Rangers. Kill a Kobold, hand character to GM to be removed. Change name on character sheet start the circle over again and again What's your name? I just want to make sure I don't make the mistake of sitting next to you at a convention or allow you to any Cons I organize in the Pale. This sort of idiocy should be stopped. It reminds me of the behavior of some highfolk elves against a PC half-orc, purposely trying to get him killed. "But I'm role-playing my character." is not a valid excuse to be an ass. Cedric Atizado
bitznarf 08-07-07, 03:13 PM	Email your triad, that ruling is the worst yet. It allows any player who hates kobolds (and has PC with a decent spot check) to, at thier own whim, enforce harsh penalties on those who play kobolds. Someone is going to do this just to be an ass (someone always does), and there are going to be some very upset players on the receiving end of this. Never mind the blatant rules breaking that the Triad is using here. No taking 10 my ass.
Zarron 08-07-07, 03:15 PM	On the other hand, my Chaotic Good character will walk from the table if someone from the groups TRIES to turn one in. "You turn this poor creature that's been helping us in, and I'LL leave. Good luck saving the Yeomanry on your own!" Yeah. And what, other PC mercenaries basically see who'll offer the higher price -- the kobold or the NPCs? I dunno, role playing in character conflict can be interesting -- conflict that breaks up the group doesn't seem so fun.
MichaelTLH 08-07-07, 03:30 PM	Personally if I lived in this region, I'd start as many kobolds as possible, and not register them with the triad. Then I'd write all sorts of mods and submit them, all cleverly written to to disguise the fact that completing them without a kobold present is impossible. Oh yeah, because we'd NEVER catch that. LOL
Hariman 08-07-07, 03:35 PM	The Yeomanry Triad just made it's annoncement, and it's not good: Spears high and ears open! Kobolds in larger numbers have begun appearing throughout the Flanness. Be wary. Any good yeoman spotting these thieving vermin should inform the nearest militia watchpost, that they be driven from our midst or taken into custody. Several of late have surrendered peacefully, but the creatures should still be viewed as potentially dangerous. They do not make good pets and are not permitted as pets! They are known to bite and some carry diseases. Be watchful, be wary, spears high! <Scrawled in draconic along the baseboards behind some inns.. My silver-scaled brethren and others of like mind, time is our friend and impatience our enemy. Do not seek to fight these big ones and they might not kill you. Submit and show them that you are not what they fear. Fight them and you give them reason to slay you. The Great One has said that we must prove our worth by obeying and not fighting. Prove your worth for all the hatchlings that may follow.> Out-of-Character Play Notes: 1) Kobolds are monsters until proven otherwise. Peoples of the Yeomanry will respond accordingly if they see and recognize a kobold. As such, kobolds are forced to Hide or Disguise themselves as a gnome or halfling pretty much at all times. They must Hide/Disguise themselves both from the commoners as well as from their fellow players. In order to do this, they must achieve a DC 17 Hide or Disguise to fool commoners' Spot checks and an opposed roll against fellow Player Characters' Spot checks. The die must be rolled (no taking 10 or taking 20), and the check must be made once every time the kobold character enters a new encounter [read: Encounter 1, Encounter 2, etc.] where they can be observed by commoners or other characters who might report them, rolling once for all the NPCs in any given encounter. Judges may modify that by the standard +/-4 circumstance bonus as they see fit, such as for large crowds or particularly suspicious guards. Rolls against Player Characters are opposed rolls made individually against each observing PC, up to once per Encounter.) Be aware that some areas and towns may be more prejudiced than others toward kobolds. (see the note after 2b) 2) If a kobold character fails a hide or disguise check, then the DM provides it with the following options: a) Flee: It tries to escape. The locals will call on a tracker to try and apprehend the kobold. The best tracker currently in the area will have a random +1d20 bonus to their Survival checks to track. If a Player Character member of the militia or military is present with the track skill and their ability is better than that of the local tracker, they are expected to perform the Tracking while the local tracker will assist. Other player character trackers may assist in the pursuit if they feel so inclined, but are not obligated to assist as militia and military are. The character kobold must use either a Hide, Bluff, or Survival check of its own (only one can be used and it must be decided before the roll) to oppose the Survival check made with the randomly determined bonus. If the kobold succeeds, it successfully escapes. If the kobold fails, it is tracked down and captured. Forcing the Yeomanry to expend resources to capture and release kobolds increases the amount of service required of the creature by 1d10 TUs. Whether the kobold succeeds in escaping or not, the module is over for that player at this time and they receive any experience and access that they would have acquired up to that point only. b)Submit: The kobold is arrested and incarcerated for 2d10 TUs (it will receive 1d10 extra TUs if it tried to flee and failed) of hard labor before being 'paroled' and told never to come to the Yeomanry again or escaping confinement, as the character chooses. They are stripped of any magical weapons that will not be returned. Such items are considered contraband in the possession of such a creature. This imprisonment can be repeated again and again. (Please note: In especially prejudiced areas, choosing to submit will be choosing to be killed. This is due to long-standing and historically-precedented animosity that will not be likely to change within a generation, even. A mention in the blurb will indicate when this is the case by noting extreme hostility against kobolds.) 3) Fighting back is not an option. Choosing to fight is choosing to have submission forced upon you. You will serve the maximum sentence of 30 TUs , which includes the maximum extra time given for fleeing, due to costs of apprehension, incarceration, and extra security for so obviously dangerous a creature. 4) Player characters may choose to turn in kobold PCs to the watch or militia, and lawful ones should feel compelled to do so. Militia, Military, and Freeguard (when it becomes official) are authorized to drive away or to arrest kobolds who do not flee, as the proclamation points out. Doing so is a Lawful act, but is not required by law unless on active duty (Freeguards are always on duty). To be clear on this, if a kobold chooses to flee they must be allowed to do so just as with NPCs. If the kobold chooses not to flee or fails to flee, they are arrested. There is no need for PC vs. PC combat in either instance. 5) Given enough time and evidence, opinions and laws in the Yeomanry are subject to change. 6) The Yeomanry does not encourage players to choose as characters kobolds, though it is recognized as a legal option to play. Players who choose kobolds for characters should expect that life will likely be extremely difficult for quite some time, especially based on historical prejudices. Players of Lawful and/or Good Kobolds are encouraged to consider the truths of non-violent civil disobedience. While the character may spend half or more of their available time each year in penal service to the Yeomanry, what they show Yeomanry citizens of the willingness of some kobolds to submit to Yeomanry law will likely do more to change hearts and minds than any act of violence ever would. A preponderance of Chaotic, Neutral, and fleeing kobolds, however, will only seek to strengthen the current opinions. Consider this if you choose to play a kobold under these stipulations. This announcement is effective immediately. Yeah, I figured as much.:( I'm impressed. Not only does this royally shaft anybody who tries to play a Kobold in the Yeomanry. It also removes normal rules options (Taking 10 on disguise or hide checks.) and FORCES CERTAIN PLAYERS TO BETRAY OTHER PLAYERS IN WHAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE A COOPERATIVE GAME! I'm sure that will never be a problem when the only cleric is a Kobold Cleric. Or when there's only 4 players at the table and the Kobold fails the first disguise check. Really, just dropping a rule that said: "Kobolds must pay double cost for any upkeep they pay and spend one extra TU per mod because of difficulties with authorities. A Kobold may avoid this by succeeding on a DC 20 disguise or hide check. DMs should note success or failure in the play notes section. Additionally, certain mods will have much more severe penalties and restrictions for Kobolds. This will be noted in a mod's blurb." Would be enough to make Kobolds feel unwelcome. I expect that Hats of Disguise will be very popular in Kobold fashion in the Yeomanry. In the Shield Lands, Kobald characters start with "Wanted by the Council" Status. On they're first AR, They are held by the council of lords for 4 TU while they decide if the Kobold is a threat to the Shield Lands, if they're good they are then released with a Tatoo marking them as a "non-threat." Neutral Kobolds are held for an additional 4 TU (For a total of 8) Before recieving the same Tatoo. That's not that bad. You can cheese your way out of it by being good alignment for one mod or just playing a good Kobold. (There's no restriction on what alignment your character is from mod to mod, unless you have special class restrictions.) It is, at most, 8 adventures for a neutral character. And it's a one time expense of TUs. It'll only really hurt crafters and those who end up enslaved.
KShaver 08-07-07, 04:08 PM	Oh yeah, because we'd NEVER catch that. LOL The non-registered kobold or the bad mods? Forgetting to register is easy. So is the mod writing. I've seen a few mods where when you read them over the progression from A->B->C->D all makes sense, but then when played you realize there is no way for the players to obtain the information they need to make it to the next part. I was just suggesting such because I don't see a reason on why all kobolds have to have your extra little harpy cert thingy or as to why they have to register with the triad? The answer seems to be, "Because otherwise we will punish you severely" and that just doesn't cut it. The upside of this is that the harsher the rulings get the greater the escalation of those opposed to those rulings. Such leads to a forced resolution of the problem. Without resolution you'll see small groups in those regions continue to play LG, but totally ignoring thier own triads rulings.
KarmaInferno 08-07-07, 04:16 PM	Its not my region but I have drawn up my disposable Gnome Kobold Killing Rangers. Kill a Kobold, hand character to GM to be removed. Change name on character sheet start the circle over again and again So do you enjoy being an ass to other players, or is it some code you are required to follow? At the very minimum this is a violation of the RPGA ethics rules and can result in you getting banned from RPGA play. Fair warning. -karma
MichaelTLH 08-07-07, 04:29 PM	I was just suggesting such because I don't see a reason on why all kobolds have to have your extra little harpy cert thingy or as to why they have to register with the triad? The answer seems to be, "Because otherwise we will punish you severely" and that just doesn't cut it. Because we have a regional flavor wherein we have been at war with kobolds for going on 7 years and this is our way of melding the highly unlikely kobold infestation, er... visitation with this fact. We're a lawful nation allowing law-abiding kobolds (almost) all the same rights and responsibilities as any other PC. Kobolds who choose to violate these laws face the same penalties any other violator would, albeit at a faster pace (i.e. no trial). We've added in the bit about visiting the ancient wyrm Kaihonreidwur so kobold PCs have a little bit of role-playing reason to settle in our great region.
Harliquinn 08-07-07, 04:36 PM	Because we have a regional flavor wherein we have been at war with kobolds for going on 7 years and this is our way of melding the highly unlikely kobold infestation, er... visitation with this fact. We're a lawful nation allowing law-abiding kobolds (almost) all the same rights and responsibilities as any other PC. Kobolds who choose to violate these laws face the same penalties any other violator would, albeit at a faster pace (i.e. no trial). We've added in the bit about visiting the ancient wyrm Kaihonreidwur so kobold PCs have a little bit of role-playing reason to settle in our great region. Having read how this region is dealing with it, it sounded fair and reasonable. The tattoo is a tame way around it and *should* say to others in the region (PC's and NPC's) that this Kobold can be treated as a normal citizen (barring individual prejudice of course). The one time (I assume it's one time) expenditure of some TU's based on alignment isn't too harsh. I liked the addition of the wyrm bit also. Kudos to your region's triad. I'm hoping Veluna's rules are no harsher than this.
MichaelTLH 08-07-07, 04:42 PM	Having read how this region is dealing with it, it sounded fair and reasonable. The tattoo is a tame way around it and *should* say to others in the region (PC's and NPC's) that this Kobold can be treated as a normal citizen (barring individual prejudice of course). The one time (I assume it's one time) expenditure of some TU's based on alignment isn't too harsh. I liked the addition of the wyrm bit also. Kudos to your region's triad. I'm hoping Veluna's rules are no harsher than this. Uleki kobolds won't be tattoo'd... they're given a copper pin from "Big K" to carry with them at all times. Hope they don't lose them... :weep: /innocent look
RBNMare 08-07-07, 04:47 PM	So all the regions are making their rules on Kobolds, What region does the Free City of Greyhawk fall under. Will Kobolds be allowed in the City?
bitznarf 08-07-07, 05:21 PM	The Zeif stance on things. http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/zeif/message/2131 "With orcs, locathah, merfolk, ghouls, liches, aquatic elves, eladrin, and even the Suloise welcome in the Sultan’s gatherings and military operations (as per pre-existing canon and our current collection of adventures and interactives), kobolds have little to fear in Zeif, so long as they stick to the laws of the land. Evil creatures are not uncommon here, and kobolds have the advantage of a reputation for Lawful alignment. That isn’t to say some people, particularly gnomes, won’t hate your kobold character’s guts immediately, but gnomes don’t write the laws in Zeif. Anyone attacking a person, regardless of race, for no reason is a criminal here. Jon Dawes Zeif Triad"
Mithreinmaethor 08-07-07, 05:22 PM	What's your name? I just want to make sure I don't make the mistake of sitting next to you at a convention or allow you to any Cons I organize in the Pale. This sort of idiocy should be stopped. It reminds me of the behavior of some highfolk elves against a PC half-orc, purposely trying to get him killed. "But I'm role-playing my character." is not a valid excuse to be an ass. Cedric Atizado So do you enjoy being an ass to other players, or is it some code you are required to follow? At the very minimum this is a violation of the RPGA ethics rules and can result in you getting banned from RPGA play. Fair warning. -karma Call it whatever you like. But adding a monster race that has such an enmity with another race was just asinine. There were plenty of other racial variants that would have not caused as much controversy or problems. Had the circle waited and included it as something to do with a plot arc (oh say in the misty islands or something) that would at least fall in line with the Brightsands race adds. And then the world could be shaped to include these lil lizards into its cannon as accepted individuals.
bitznarf 08-07-07, 05:27 PM	Its not my region but I have drawn up my disposable Gnome Kobold Killing Rangers. Kill a Kobold, hand character to GM to be removed. Change name on character sheet start the circle over again and again It's a good thing that such acts are not allowed without the approval of the other player, and as such your PC would be yanked before he so much as scratched the kobold PC.
CdrcJsn 08-07-07, 05:28 PM	Call it whatever you like. But adding a monster race that has such an enmity with another race was just asinine. There were plenty of other racial variants that would have not caused as much controversy or problems. Had the circle waited and included it as something to do with a plot arc (oh say in the misty islands or something) that would at least fall in line with the Brightsands race adds. And then the world could be shaped to include these lil lizards into its cannon as accepted individuals. Don't like it? Fine, then don't play it and avoid tables with those characters present. But intentionally ruining the game for 3-5 other players? This is just plain rude and immature. And you never did give your name... Cedric Atizado
Zarron 08-07-07, 05:32 PM	If a PC deliberately created a character solely kill another PC and ruin the game at a table I was running, I know someone wouldn't be welcome back.
KarmaInferno 08-07-07, 06:11 PM	Call it whatever you like. But adding a monster race that has such an enmity with another race was just asinine. There were plenty of other racial variants that would have not caused as much controversy or problems. Had the circle waited and included it as something to do with a plot arc (oh say in the misty islands or something) that would at least fall in line with the Brightsands race adds. And then the world could be shaped to include these lil lizards into its cannon as accepted individuals. My problem is not with you playing a character who might hate kobolds. What you are proposing has nothing to do with roleplay or staying in character. You, the player, not your characters, are being an ass. You have opinions about what is proper and what is not. Fine. You don't get to forcibly impose those opinions on others. If you really felt that strongly about it, you'd have the testicular fortitude to do it with your main character. As it is, you're just whizzing on other people's game play and enjoyment, for entirely personal and selfish reasons. -karma
Harliquinn 08-07-07, 06:26 PM	Uleki kobolds won't be tattoo'd... they're given a copper pin from "Big K" to carry with them at all times. Hope they don't lose them... :weep: /innocent look Okay I apparently got the two regions backwards :) Both sound okay, but I like the pin better :)
KShaver 08-07-07, 07:21 PM	Because we have a regional flavor wherein we have been at war with kobolds for going on 7 years and this is our way of melding the highly unlikely kobold infestation, er... visitation with this fact. We're a lawful nation allowing law-abiding kobolds (almost) all the same rights and responsibilities as any other PC. Kobolds who choose to violate these laws face the same penalties any other violator would, albeit at a faster pace (i.e. no trial). We've added in the bit about visiting the ancient wyrm Kaihonreidwur so kobold PCs have a little bit of role-playing reason to settle in our great region. Now that makes a little more sense, but that still leaves out newer LG players who don't know much about thier regions (yes, they exist). Regional rules shouldn't be so specific that they severely penalize any legitimate character creation options. Pretend a couple of XE players get kobold cards in the mail and decide they want to try out LG, and they just happen to live in Yeomanry. They aren't going to make characters that can disguise or run, they don't know they need to. First thing that is going to happen is they'll be caught and lose a bunch of TUs. The couple of players that are left in the party will be upset because they won't be able to finish the mod, and the kobold players will be upset because they didn't realize they were going to be penalized for playing kobolds. Maybe I'm fortunate to live in a region that traditionally has had very little to say on what players can and can't play, but I think thats the way every region should be. Fair is fair and regional flavor can be worked out without penalizing people or making rediculous requirements of them. If your threw out meta-orgs and regional rules you should still get a perfect idea of what a region is like through its modules (and no those modules shouldn't start with "If theres a kobold in the party...").
clannagh 08-07-07, 07:30 PM	sooo ... Technically if you wanted to be a really annoying arse at Yeomanry Conventions you could insist on bring your high level Kobold to 4 person tables bumping the APL and then voluntarily fail your disguise check at the first encounter :)
RedKnightofKet 08-07-07, 07:34 PM	A couple of points to make here: I play a cleric of Gendwar Argrim, who hates the enemies of the dwarves: goblins, giants, and orcs - which, to me, include half-orcs. Do I attack those PCs? No. I roleplay out some distrust, make some comments, but I leave it at that. PvP is not an appropriate way to play LG. Period. Second, for my region, I have yet to see a reaction in Ket, and I don't really expect one. I know others who choose to play monsters (i.e., elves, centaurs, asherati, etc) in Ket, so kobolds would fall into the same category. No protection under the law, not trusted by the common folk or the establishment, but still allowed to adventure in Ket.
control freak 08-07-07, 07:47 PM	veluna ruled yet?, i have no idea why any one would (other then not being able to play one) want to restrict such a fun race in more then a flavor full race "if theres a kobold he scouls at the PCs and tells them you should be careful the company you keep" ok thats fine so some NPCs dont like you "if theres a kobold in the party the party is captured for harbering an evil creature and spends 3d10 TU imprisoned and CANNOT FIGHT BACK DISPITE BEING ABLE TO TPK 90% OF THE CITY OR EVEN DIM DOOR AWAY AND MUST PAY 2 TU TO PLAY ADVENTURES" that is dumb especialy not bieng able to combat them, after all if you can drop a few magic missiles on a guy 200 feet away then drop a few scorching rays before they even get to you, or you teleported away....
mlund 08-07-07, 07:49 PM	The Nyrond proclamation against Kobolds is possibly the most harsh I've seen since the Urnst "kill on sight" policy was struck down. The Yeomany proclamation is probably the worst since then, and should probably warrant the Urnst treatment. Nyrond have a strict "skill check or out of the mod" policy in place that make it very clear that the Triad puts the "purity" of "their" sandbox ahead of any fun the wrong-headed players and meddling Circle might try to foist off on them. Even on the Skill Checks you still aren't allowed to actually contribute to your group in any sort of Encounter in a civilized setting. Acting in any such way will eliminate your character from the module and subject you to Summary Execution at worst and Banishment at best. Frankly, I think behavior like this from various Triads ought to be a wake-up call to the Circle that perhaps some Triad members have over-stayed their time in office and become too possessive / dictatorial of "their" region. - Marty Lund
Sieylianna 08-07-07, 08:10 PM	Don't like it? Fine, then don't play it and avoid tables with those characters present. But intentionally ruining the game for 3-5 other players? This is just plain rude and immature. There is absolutely no reason that we should have to put up with kobolds. Your kobold PC is ruining the game for me just as much as the regional restrictions are bothering you. I'm certainly hoping that Veluna is restrictive towards kobolds, there was an official post a few months ago about Veluna closing its borders to foreigners. While the triad has been too busy to define exactly what they meant, it doesn't leave much room for letting known monsters in the country. Ed
bitznarf 08-07-07, 08:23 PM	There is absolutely no reason that we should have to put up with kobolds. Your kobold PC is ruining the game for me just as much as the regional restrictions are bothering you. How exactly does having kobold PCs in the game 'ruin the game for you'? I'd offer up some possible reasons but those would be pure conjecture and I wouldn't want to be accused of putting words in anyones mouths. But note that as of yet I can't think of a single good reason for the animosity toward kobold PCs. Edit: Oh, and 'reasons to put up with kobolds? How about because they are part of the rules. Just like spiked chains.
CdrcJsn 08-07-07, 08:25 PM	There is absolutely no reason that we should have to put up with kobolds. Your kobold PC is ruining the game for me just as much as the regional restrictions are bothering you. Ed I'm fine with regional restrictions. Even the more stricter ones are doable. But we were talking about a Player who is specifically going to create a character just to kill other kobold characters. I would be just as offended if someone wanted to make an elf character who plans on killing off half-orc PCs. People's right to dislike other characters ends where PvP begins. If people dislike certain characters so much, they can ask the convention coordinator to switch them to another table or pre-plan tables so they don't have to put up with characters that annoy them.
Hariman 08-07-07, 09:10 PM	So all the regions are making their rules on Kobolds, What region does the Free City of Greyhawk fall under. Will Kobolds be allowed in the City? A strict reading of the Greyhawk City Ruins sourcebook says no (to more than just Kobolds), but I get the feeling that Greyhawk will end up simply giving Kobolds the "half orc treatment". They get pulled aside, interrogated for a bit, and then let in with a stern "We'll be keeping an eye on you." At least, that's what I think will happen. Especially in core mods.
Genghis Cohen 08-07-07, 09:26 PM	Its not my region but I have drawn up my disposable Gnome Kobold Killing Rangers. Kill a Kobold, hand character to GM to be removed. Change name on character sheet start the circle over again and againGet a grip. This is a game. An LG table is not a forum dedicated to your gratuitous indulgences. If the Circle's decision to release these cards bothers you this much, be a man. Walk away from the campaign instead of spreading misery to people who spend time and money seeking 4 hours of fun.
Hariman 08-07-07, 09:48 PM	Get a grip. This is a game. An LG table is not a forum dedicated to your gratuitous indulgences. If the Circle's decision to release these cards bothers you this much, be a man. Walk away from the campaign instead of spreading misery to people who spend time and money seeking 4 hours of fun. There's a guy in my area that I could say this to as well. He's had the gall to threaten my character's life more than once. Once, when I slipped and fired into a grapple that was his Druid/Beastmaster's bear and the enemy. (I hit the monster.) And the second time when I left a silenced token behind to cast an orb on a heavily armored enemy cleric. (An act which killed said cleric.) The second time, when I said "You'd lose your character" he had the nerve to say "I'm not very attached to this character." Really now, I wonder if he even considered the mere time investment of 125+ hours I spent on my character. (29 ARs, including multiple 2 rounders.) Mithreinmaethor, most people aren't so casual about their characters. Even killing one Kobold PC will likely lose you a large number of play opportunities. Killing multiple kobold PCs will likely get you reported and banned.
trollbill 08-07-07, 09:49 PM	There is absolutely no reason that we should have to put up with kobolds. Yes, there is. The Circle has rules that Kobold PCs are legal in LG. You have no more right to deny a player the right to play a Kobold than you do to play a human. Or do you think you are above the Circle, and personally know better than they what is best for LG?
Genghis Cohen 08-07-07, 10:02 PM	There's a guy in my area that I could say this to as well. He's had the gall to threaten my character's life more than once. Once, when I slipped and fired into a grapple that was his Druid/Beastmaster's bear and the enemy. (I hit the monster.) And the second time when I left a silenced token behind to cast an orb on a heavily armored enemy cleric. (An act which killed said cleric.) The second time, when I said "You'd lose your character" he had the nerve to say "I'm not very attached to this character." Really now, I wonder if he even considered the mere time investment of 125+ hours I spent on my character. (29 ARs, including multiple 2 rounders.) Mithreinmaethor, most people aren't so casual about their characters. Even killing one Kobold PC will likely lose you a large number of play opportunities. Killing multiple kobold PCs will likely get you reported and banned.Has anyone pulled him aside - perhaps before the start of a round - and let him know that he's being an a$$h0le? WOO HOO!!! I got past the vBulletin censorbot!!!
control freak 08-07-07, 10:03 PM	i have no problem killing kobolt PCs (long pause) provided they are dominated, yes i know theres the whole thing about non leathal, but frankly thats an evil act, not quite a evil PC (yes you may be depending on the case of it but if your a gnome that doesnt like kobolds then when they turn on you, you might chauk it up to "i knew they were evil never should have given them a chance" but any one who outright kills another persons PC unless for a good reason (IE dominated/ mod hook where the party splits) its stupid
Eric Anondson 08-07-07, 10:25 PM	This is at least semi-reasonable, though totally uncalled for.There has been a long developing background storyline (over years 4, 5 and 6) in the Shield Lands regarding Iuzian infiltrators and Hextorian interlopers, each trying to bring down the War of Reclamation and sow discord. The Iuzians had used doppelgangers to supplant nobles on the Council of Lords, and those lords were found in dungeons beneath Laws Forge. The infiltration had ramped up slowly from there. The story has been ramping up over the past few years to the current result revealed at this weekend's past battle interactive at Shield Con, a Heironean-led inquisition to root out evil interlopers, infiltrators, shapechangers, spies, etc. Enough was enough, so to speak, for the Shield Landers responsible for keeping the populace safe. Iuzians were showing up in the most unexpected of places and no one could trust their neighbor any more. And then these kobolds cards are given out. A one time 4 or 8 TU loss is pretty tame. Also, the "tattoo" is a mark of justice. This mark of justice allows the kobolds so branded to be overlooked by the Inquisitors in future interactions. They have been "vetted" by inquisitors already as "not a threat national security" and have the mark to prove it. So it isn't like it is a total "hose", there is a roleplaying benefit no one else will get. FWIW, the Shield Lands also have a metaorg with secret society-like behavior that gives dragonblooded characters a major TU shortcut to the upper tiers. These kobolds qualify for that.
just_be_glad_now 08-07-07, 10:51 PM	As for the shield lands, they've been throwing everybody in jail of late, so it's not as much of a stretch as it might be otherwise. There's some sort of McCarthyism going on with dopplegangers or something in the story arc right now, so from what I saw, the kobold PCs are just being treated like almost everyone else in the region at the moment. I don't believe Highfolk has published a stance on it yet, am I incorrect? I am expecting Highfolk's will be very lenient. There's even a meta-org there for revolution-minded small size PCs :)
Wraith235 08-07-07, 11:06 PM	There's a few things that are going on here that you might not be considering. In my view, the Kolbolds are getting the lenient end of the stick in Nyrond with this ruling: #1 - Nyrond is a Lawful Neutral nation with tendencies toward Lawful Good. This is partly why the Kolbolds aren't killed on sight. (quite) If you notice in the document, it always says that the Kolbolds have to do something they're not supposed to in order to get in trouble with the law. In general though, the highly Lawful nature of Nyrond made it unlikely that we'd get an anything-goes ruling to start with. #2 - Nyrond does not have nice Kolbolds. Every other Kolbold you meet around here is the type that sticks people with sharp pointy things if you give them half a chance. What the ruling does is give the Kolbold a chance. They have to be very careful around cities and it's not advisable at all for them to try and sneak around the restrictions placed on them. If they only go by what they're allowed to do and behave themselves, however, they can get by even in the biggest of Nyrond's cities. The thing that helps Kolbolds the most, however, is that there's a way out. You can eventually obtain citizenship, although it's not an easy road to achieve that. It's a hard path for Nyrond Kolbolds to walk, but it's awesome that they can eventually achieve legitimacy...or at least try to. That's awesome roleplaying potential. Builds that have high Diplomacy would help. sorry I should have been more specific about why I was dissappointed .... I happen to personally know of 2 Mods (1 year 6 and 1 year 7) where it is almost impossible to NOT be arrested its more the Way Nyrond Regionals are Written Coupled with the decree with Kobolds that just makes me see the "AR Waste" since thats basicallly what it wouild do
TheBlackFlail 08-07-07, 11:39 PM	I don't believe Highfolk has published a stance on it yet, am I incorrect? I am expecting Highfolk's will be very lenient. There's even a meta-org there for revolution-minded small size PCs :) Bwahahahahaha! Right... Until the Triad publishes an official policy, I would not bring a Kobold anywhere near the Vesve or Highfolk Town.
_metz_ 08-08-07, 12:04 AM	Quite frankly I see several problems with Yeomanry. 1. Triad Like to control things/break the rules so that they are in control. 2. They want to dictate what races people play 3. They are running their region without player or circle input. Such behavior sums up what is wrong with many gamers who think they are too important and try to control everything. I beleive Circle needs to move in and hit them pretty hard, for breaking a hell of a lot of rules, as well as discouraging team play. Personally if our Triad tried to do that at the moment there would be a genuine rebellion, I don't know how it is handled over there, but I like to think some of the Australian folks are held accountable for their actions by the players...
GreatSiron 08-08-07, 01:01 AM	Quite frankly I see two problems with Yeomanry. 1. Triad Like to control things/break the rules so that they are in control. 2. They want to dictate what races people play 3. They are running their region without player or circle input. Such behavior sums up what is wrong with many gamers who think they are too important and try to control everything. I beleive Circle needs to move in and hit them pretty hard, for breaking a hell of a lot of rules, as well as discouraging team play. Personally if our Triad tried to do that at the moment there would be a genuine rebellion, I don't know how it is handled over there, but I like to think some of the Australian folks are held accountable for their actions by the players... Eh, what you are stating has been a problem in the Yeomanry for quite a while. The Kobold thing just highlights it.
Samwise 08-08-07, 02:06 AM	sooo ... Technically if you wanted to be a really annoying arse at Yeomanry Conventions you could insist on bring your high level Kobold to 4 person tables bumping the APL and then voluntarily fail your disguise check at the first encounter :) Nah, just fill out a 3 person table with your kobold then get yourself bounced. Even better, get two friends so they think they have a 6 person table, and have half the table dropped out in the introduction.
gomeztoo 08-08-07, 02:40 AM	Bwahahahahaha! Right... Until the Triad publishes an official policy, I would not bring a Kobold anywhere near the Vesve or Highfolk Town. Given their recation to Dragon Disciples... I expect kobolds won't be happy either. Personally, I hope kobolds will find a welcome home in Verbobonc, at least in the Ironwood... Lord Shannus won't care as long as they pledge alliance, and Nes would love to get some more kobold friends. Though, given the disposition of most PCs towards Shannus, being welcome in Glory town may well make you KOS anywhere else in the viscounty...
Mithreinmaethor 08-08-07, 06:51 AM	Sorry no time to cut and paste all the text from your replies above. I just find it funny to see everyone squirm when I posted that. I posted it before in jest in another thread last week to give heck to a friend. Thought I would post it again in this thread to satisfy my perverse fetish of watching people whine and squirm incessantly. If you had spent time and looked up other posts by me you would have seen me talking about a build in one thread and discussing the need to wait for the DC before making a decision on a Kobold for Greyhawk Ruins. Hope no one had a myocardial infarction over this post. You shouldnt take the game so seriously (as someone said above), or peoples posts in a forum so seriously for that matter. Now to make sure to dodge Britt at the next convention I go to. Dont want to get kicked in the shins for raising peoples blood pressure.
Puggle Halfwine 08-08-07, 10:08 AM	Now to make sure to dodge Britt at the next convention I go to. Dont want to get kicked in the shins for raising peoples blood pressure. If you mess with Britt, you mess with a GOD. Know his wrath and know FEAR! ALL HAIL BRITT! ALL HAIL BRITT! ALL HAIL BRITT!
KarmaInferno 08-08-07, 10:56 AM	Sorry no time to cut and paste all the text from your replies above. I just find it funny to see everyone squirm when I posted that. I posted it before in jest in another thread last week to give heck to a friend. Thought I would post it again in this thread to satisfy my perverse fetish of watching people whine and squirm incessantly. So you admit to trolling. You realize that in itself is a violation of board rules? -karma
Zarron 08-08-07, 10:58 AM	I was chalking it up to rapid back pedaling.
Fakegoatee 08-08-07, 11:12 AM	Quite frankly I see two problems with Yeomanry. 1. Triad Like to control things/break the rules so that they are in control. 2. They want to dictate what races people play 3. They are running their region without player or circle input. Gotta disagree with you metz. First, that's three problems, not two. ;) 1. The Yeomanry Triad are not on a powertrip. They are keenly interested in preserving the regional flavor and canon of the Yeomanry, which sometimes puts them at odds with players who aren't interested in that. 2. They are not trying to dictate what races people play. But they aren't going to retcon the Yeomanry League into a place that's friendly to kobolds just because a reward card has been issued. Instead, they've provided a path to acceptance for the new kobolds that is in ine with the regional flavor and canon. 3. And they are not running the region without player input. They frequently request player input, and so far as I've ever been able to tell, they take it into account. They don't grease every squeaky wheel, though, and when they don't, it's generally for good reasons. It's time for someone to defend the Yeomanry Triad's decision here, so I guess I'll give it a stab. It's important to distinguish the opinions of the Triad from the opinions of the people of the Yeomanry League. It is *not* the official opinion of the Triad that kobolds should be severely penalized. It is the official opionion of the Triad that the people of the Yeomanry are extremely skeptical of kobolds, and will seek to imprison them for being kobolds. This is not because of the Triad's prejudices. It is because of the prejudices of the people of the Yeomanry League. By canon and regional flavor, the Yeomanry League is a superstitious backwater that has been fighting off humanoid marauders of various sorts for a very long time indeed. The Yeomanry is many things, but cosmopolitan it is not. There is simply no reason to expect that the laws of the land would acknowledge the difference between these exotic new kobolds and the ones who have been killing Yeomen for centuries, until the exotic kobolds have proven their loyalty and value to the League. The ruling from the Yeomanry Triad reflects the fact that people in the Yeomanry will, at first, see the new kobolds as just more kobolds, and they'll treat them the way they've always treated kobolds. It also offers the possibility that the policy will CHANGE, in response to the behavior of Mist Kingdom kobolds in the region. That reflects the flavor of the Yeomanry as the closest thing to a representative democracy in the Flanaess. (And even if the policy does change, wise kobolds should probably steer clear of the town of Gnome!) I don't agree with all aspects of the decision. In particular, I disagree with the "no taking 10" provision. But I actually think the consequences of failed checks are in line with what one should expect in the Yeomanry League, and I think a DC of 17 with possibility of using Hide rather than Disguise is downright generous. (The PHB -2 for disguising as a different race presupposes characters are members of PHB races disguising themselves as members of other PHB races. The penalty for a kobold passing as a gnome should be a great deal higher.)
Reylance 08-08-07, 11:16 AM	If a PC deliberately created a character solely kill another PC and ruin the game at a table I was running, I know someone wouldn't be welcome back. I'd make an exception if the targeted PC was that Living City character, Mohammed. (A few of us might recognize that name....)
Madfox11 08-08-07, 11:36 AM	Before we start to be all worked up on the Yeomanry announcement, it should be noted that it has been seen by the Circle, and it is under discussion both among us and with the Yeomanry triad. Note though that Triads do control their own regions, and that it is entirely up to the individual triads to decide whether or not to make life difficult for kobolds. I trust them to keep their regional flavor into mind. The Campaign Card even warns about the fact that playing a kobold can be dangerous and lethal. Pieter Sleijpen RPGA Living Greyhawk Circle Member The Splintered Suns
Harliquinn 08-08-07, 11:51 AM	Gotta disagree with you metz. First, that's three problems, not two. ;) 2. They are not trying to dictate what races people play. But they aren't going to retcon the Yeomanry League into a place that's friendly to kobolds just because a reward card has been issued. Instead, they've provided a path to acceptance for the new kobolds that is in ine with the regional flavor and canon. There is nothing I saw (though I'm not from the region so it doesn't affect me) that shows a 'path to acceptance' other than "We will see how well people like having their magic items taken from them, losing all their play time, or being killed repeatedly." before we make any more rulings. If this were a novel, sure you can say "In a few years we'll evaluate how this is working." and poof a few years go by. However, these are real people playing with real lives. I can't imagine anyone wanting to play a campaign for a few years where you lose most of your play time, lose all your magic items, and are repeatedly killed all for failing on a 1d20 roll for which the Triad has changed the rules and disallowed taking 10. There is simply no reason to expect that the laws of the land would acknowledge the difference between these exotic new kobolds and the ones who have been killing Yeomen for centuries, until the exotic kobolds have proven their loyalty and value to the League. I've seen some other policies that allow kobolds to prove their loyalty. The rules set forth by the Yeomanry don't afford kobolds that opportunity. The choices when 'discovered' (which is highly likely given the modified rules) are flee (preferred to most) or submit (lose all your items and most of your adventuring capabilities). Sometimes, there needs to be a little consideration for the people playing characters as much as preserving canon. Harliquinn
mlund 08-08-07, 12:31 PM	Note though that Triads do control their own regions, and that it is entirely up to the individual triads to decide whether or not to make life difficult for kobolds. See, this is the part that shows what the DCI has that the RPGA lacks - the ability to control and respect a true Organized Play brand. It should never be taken for granted that, "Triads control their own regions." Triads are ~ responsible ~ for their own region and trusted to exercise their best judgment. WotC has final control over Living Greyhawk, and no one else. If WotC wants to change something that the Yeomanry or Dyvers Triad doesn't like than the Triad can cry about it. It's not their home game. They don't "own" or "control" anything. They are volunteers and probably volunteers that should have a routine amount of turn-over to keep people from getting too possessive / stagnant. This may cut against the general Old Boys Network thing going on and the idea of "better the devil you know," but I think it is the best for the overall campaign to limit the term any member of a Triad can serve. - Marty Lund
Fakegoatee 08-08-07, 12:34 PM	The choices when 'discovered' (which is highly likely given the modified rules) are flee (preferred to most) or submit (lose all your items and most of your adventuring capabilities). It might be less likely than it looks. A first level kobold rogue with 20 Dex, Skill Focus (Hide) and 4 ranks in Hide will roll: d20 +5 Dex + 4 ranks + 3 skill focus + 4 size = d20 + 16 Such a character will automatically succeed on the DC 17 check. Yes, it's min/maxed for hiding, but that's the point. If you are a kobold living in the Yeomanry, hiding is your full time job.
Redfist 08-08-07, 12:50 PM	They are volunteers and probably volunteers that should have a routine amount of turn-over to keep people from getting too possessive / stagnant. This may cut against the general Old Boys Network thing going on and the idea of "better the devil you know," but I think it is the best for the overall campaign to limit the term any member of a Triad can serve. In an arena where corrupt power can cause serious harm (governments in charge of militaries), I agree. This, however, is a **GAME**. I disagree with the notion that Triad members should be pushed out of office as a matter of policy. The danger is pushing someone out is that you may be pushing out someone who is extremely qualified. I agree with this notion in real life government because the danger of keeping a power monger is too great, but with a **GAME**, the danger doesn't outweigh the risk of loosing truely qualified individuals. IMHO... Given the reactions on the Nyrond yahoo group, I've seen a lot of people lining up on both sides. That tells me that the Triad's decision is probably just about right. And even if it's to one side or the other of "just right", it's close enough not to warrant conversations about booting them from office. :)
solbergb 08-08-07, 12:51 PM	The Nyrond proclamation against Kobolds is possibly the most harsh I've seen since the Urnst "kill on sight" policy was struck down. Given that this is the region of: "I think occult slayers should be banned so we'll penalize anyone who doesn't play them with the stupidest flavor possible and we'll write mods especially harsh on them" and "Favored enemy <pc race> on a ranger is automatically evil and don't give me any of that guff about how it changed in 3.5" I suspect it is the same individual responsible for both of these who is responsible for this latest idiotic ruling. Yes, I'm paraphrasing entire previous discussions about that individual, and I don't know the person so am operating out of hearsay and rumor, but.... Actions speak louder than rumor. It's more of the same "I know my flavor darnit and if you don't play my way I'll beat you with a hammer" behavior. Nyrond DOES have some mods where kobolds were the BBEG and the Flinty Hills gnomes DO have both political power and dislike gnomes a lot, but outside of Flinty Hills the average Nyrondese has probably never seen a kobold and certainly has never had one do anything bad to him. They were not shock troopers in any of the Greyhawk Wars or Sewart revolution. Most bad things done to Nyrond folk are done by other Nyrond folk, or at least Oerideans from Almor.... There have been a bunch of mods where celedon elves are very hostile to Nyrondese, but elves don't have any restrictions in Nyrond. It's just stupid. I'm glad my region has more sense.
Harliquinn 08-08-07, 01:27 PM	It might be less likely than it looks. A first level kobold rogue with 20 Dex, Skill Focus (Hide) and 4 ranks in Hide will roll: d20 +5 Dex + 4 ranks + 3 skill focus + 4 size = d20 + 16 Such a character will automatically succeed on the DC 17 check. Yes, it's min/maxed for hiding, but that's the point. If you are a kobold living in the Yeomanry, hiding is your full time job. So this implies that to play a kobold, you have to be a rogue, have a 20 Dex (likely meaning you've sacrificed other stats), and wasted your first level feat on Skill Focus? That seems a little limiting. A more reasonable assumption is: d20 + 4 Dex (+3 for non-Rogues) + 4 ranks (+2 for non-rogues) + 4 size = d20+12 for Rogues or d20+9 for non-Rogues. Hiding also requires many other environmental conditions and you're moving very slowly. It's impractical to hide the entire adventure. There are also Disguise checks that might have to be made as well (It's pretty tough to 'hide' from your party for the whole adventure), which in general are going to be much lower (since non-sorcerer kobolds will likely not have great charisma, nor is there a racial bonus). The checks themselves are not a huge problem. However, the penalties for failing these checks are in my opinion, and that of many others, way too severe and cross the line into disruption of the game table as well as the adventure. Harliquinn
mlund 08-08-07, 01:40 PM	The danger is pushing someone out is that you may be pushing out someone who is extremely qualified. I'm not saying you ban them for life. I'm saying you give them some time off the job to get a little distance and perspective. That's good for anyone working in Design. That danger of not pushing people out of the job is that you stop looking for more qualified people because they guy who already has the job is, "experienced," "reliable," "loyal," and you're friends with him. the danger doesn't outweigh the risk of loosing truely qualified individuals. I don't see how you risk losing anyone, unless they throw a complete temper-tantrum over not being "in charge" anymore, in which case they probably shouldn't have had the job anyway. It isn't like people who aren't on the Triad don't write modules and provide world-building input on a regular basis. Given the reactions on the Nyrond yahoo group, I've seen a lot of people lining up on both sides. That tells me that the Triad's decision is probably just about right. And even if it's to one side or the other of "just right", it's close enough not to warrant conversations about booting them from office. :) Nah, I think they did a very poor job about it because of feelings rather than reasoning. I think they could learn a lot from the model the Shield Lands put into place. Dressing up a kobold-only kill-box in Nyrond isn't protecting the canon of the realm or establishing a great sense of consistency in a nation that needs to vet persons from hostile neighbors like Allihissa, Rary's Brightlands, and sympathizers of the Usurper while it has full-blooded Orc citizens appear in modules. - Marty Lund
control freak 08-08-07, 01:44 PM	so does greyhawk say "NO entry" or you can pay a tax to enter it?
_metz_ 08-08-07, 01:47 PM	Gotta disagree with you metz. First, that's three problems, not two. ;) snip Yeah I edited it to say three, my bad. I got carried away and added another one. However, I have NOTHING against canon with regards to Kobolds and Triad, however the Yeomanry ruling offered no choice, immediate bad stuff, unscaled events, no chance to avoid it/dimplomacise out of it, and essentially was a Triad smack down. There is a difference to "Kobolds WILL be killed on sight" to: "Kobolds may be attacked on sight". You need to understand the distinction. That is why the yeomanry ruling bugs me. Its is completely punitive with no chance for anything else, and doesn't offer the Kobold Player any options at all. There are ways to represent such regional flavour without doing this. But as I said, I got tired of such discussions and hence lost interest in determining what happens in Perrenland or Ratik with Respect to Kobolds. Hopefully it will work out. The only downside is I might not end up playing a Kobold, so its up to Triad to determine if they are doing their job to encourage LG if they do such things. I am happy to roleplay a mistrusted character, who has real difficulties with racial prejudices. I am not happy to constantly have all my gear taken and be imprisoned without any opportunity to explain myself, defend myself, or take into account what I may have done for the region...
CdrcJsn 08-08-07, 01:53 PM	Sorry no time to cut and paste all the text from your replies above. I just find it funny to see everyone squirm when I posted that. I posted it before in jest in another thread last week to give heck to a friend. Thought I would post it again in this thread to satisfy my perverse fetish of watching people whine and squirm incessantly. If you had spent time and looked up other posts by me you would have seen me talking about a build in one thread and discussing the need to wait for the DC before making a decision on a Kobold for Greyhawk Ruins. Hope no one had a myocardial infarction over this post. You shouldnt take the game so seriously (as someone said above), or peoples posts in a forum so seriously for that matter. Hmm. An immature troll indeed. Well, foolish actions still have consequences. You never did give your real name, so I'm assuming cowardice as well. Cedric Atizado
Harliquinn 08-08-07, 01:57 PM	Get a grip. This is a game. An LG table is not a forum dedicated to your gratuitous indulgences. If the Circle's decision to release these cards bothers you this much, be a man. Walk away from the campaign instead of spreading misery to people who spend time and money seeking 4 hours of fun. Maybe I'm in the minority but I took his (the poster for whom the above was a response) post to be sarcasm / satire as soon as I read it. It's not always obvious, but for some reason his 'tone' came across to me as a joking intent, and certainly not a troll.
CdrcJsn 08-08-07, 02:08 PM	Maybe I'm in the minority but I took his (the poster for whom the above was a response) post to be sarcasm / satire as soon as I read it. It's not always obvious, but for some reason his 'tone' came across to me as a joking intent, and certainly not a troll. The poster did not qualify his initial post with anything that could be construed that it was a joke. He stated that he had already created such a character for the specific intent of killing other kobold PCs. Its not my region but I have drawn up my disposable Gnome Kobold Killing Rangers. Kill a Kobold, hand character to GM to be removed. Change name on character sheet start the circle over again and again. His subsequent post showed his thought process behind the decision, that it was the Circle's fault for pushing kobolds down on the players. Call it whatever you like. But adding a monster race that has such an enmity with another race was just asinine. There were plenty of other racial variants that would have not caused as much controversy or problems. Had the circle waited and included it as something to do with a plot arc (oh say in the misty islands or something) that would at least fall in line with the Brightsands race adds. And then the world could be shaped to include these lil lizards into its cannon as accepted individuals. What is it about the above statements that can be read as the poster not being serious about his intent? The only thing I can think of is that nobody in their right minds can be that much of an ass. But apparently I'm wrong. And in his latest post he admits to trolling. But I agree with the other poster and just assume he's backpedalling.
Redfist 08-08-07, 02:16 PM	I'm not saying you ban them for life. I'm saying you give them some time off the job to get a little distance and perspective. That's good for anyone working in Design. That danger of not pushing people out of the job is that you stop looking for more qualified people because they guy who already has the job is, "experienced," "reliable," "loyal," and you're friends with him. I don't see how you risk losing anyone, unless they throw a complete temper-tantrum over not being "in charge" anymore, in which case they probably shouldn't have had the job anyway. It isn't like people who aren't on the Triad don't write modules and provide world-building input on a regular basis. Nah, I think they did a very poor job about it because of feelings rather than reasoning. I think they could learn a lot from the model the Shield Lands put into place. Dressing up a kobold-only kill-box in Nyrond isn't protecting the canon of the realm or establishing a great sense of consistency in a nation that needs to vet persons from hostile neighbors like Allihissa, Rary's Brightlands, and sympathizers of the Usurper while it has full-blooded Orc citizens appear in modules. - Marty Lund There are some regions that have difficulty keeping 3 triad seats filled as it is, let alone forcing them out of office. What you suggest sounds reasonable in principle, but I don't think would work well in practice in LG. You "risk loosing" people simply due to the nature that you are loosing people. By that I mean you are removing someone from the post and replacing them with someone who might be worse. I'm not implying that they wouldn't want to contribute on some level, but the average quality of "those in charge" could suffer. That would be a loss. Also, what would your "term limit" be? The lifespan of LG is going to be far shorter than that of a real world nation thus the terms would most likely be suggested to be shorter (or not worthwhile). If the term were long, it would essentially not matter since they'd be "in charge" for a larger duration relative to the whole. If you have the term be short, you'd run the risk of extremely short sighted vision on continual story arcs. I've heard far too many stories from various triad members, past and present, about how their region changed dramatically when triad members changed posts. I know you mean well, and obviously I merely have a difference of opinion, but I think forcing them out is a horrendously bad idea. And no - I'm not triad so it's not like I'm trying to "protect my position". You also mention that you believe the Nyrond triad did a poor job stemming from feelings rather than reason, I completely disagree. They put in place something which many people believe DOES reflect Nyrond's canon and even allowed for change over time by letting the PLAYERS actually affect the campaign rather than simply collect ARs. Just because you don't like their decision, doesn't immediately translate into them doing a "poor job". However, this comes down to opinion thus neither one being "wrong".
Harliquinn 08-08-07, 02:18 PM	So what was Nyrond's position on kobolds? I keep hearing it's worse than Yeomanry, but I haven't seen it.
Redfist 08-08-07, 02:22 PM	So what was Nyrond's position on kobolds? I keep hearing it's worse than Yeomanry, but I haven't seen it. http://www.nyrond.org/download/kobold_pcs_in_the_kingdom_of_nyrond.pdf Basically, they're mistrusted at first, have to jump through hoops, etc. but there is a way to earn citizenship. Some people's concern is that DMs-with-an-agenda can use this to hammer down legal choice instead of represent regional flavor. Bad DMs can always cause havoc. :(
Simpi 08-08-07, 02:30 PM	However, these are real people playing with real lives. I can't imagine anyone wanting to play a campaign for a few years where you lose most of your play time, lose all your magic items, and are repeatedly killed all for failing on a 1d20 roll for which the Triad has changed the rules and disallowed taking 10. I do have to point out that Kobold cards are still being sent to people and I doubt that many of them have yet even started their careers. These rules will no doubt be proclaimed far and wide and hopefully will not come as surprise to anyone. (I know it's a shocker to someone but players should be expected to learn something about their region). No one is about to lose his level 12+ holy avenger wielding paladin character over these rules. These are restrictions coming to place for PCs which for the most part don't even exist and are not probably something that new player will play, seeing that it requires quite a few reward points to actually get that card. I am definetly in the camp that Triads can preserve their regional flavor if they choose so and if regions history shows that kobolds are not welcome, then I don't see how their sudden & full integration into society could be justified. And in case anyone is interested, one local player expressed an opinion that our rules on kobolds were far too lenient and should be much stricter. We see what other player feedback is and determine if we tighten the current rules. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
Harliquinn 08-08-07, 02:36 PM	The Nyrond position, while harsh at first, at least shows that they are trying accommodate the kobolds over time. The presence of special 'intro' mods and the documented method for achieving status (3 AR's) shows a conscious effort to tell the players "Hey, it'll rough to start, but you can eventually win out." Some other policies don't have this hard evidence of change and seem to rely on 'how things turn out.'
Fakegoatee 08-08-07, 02:40 PM	So this implies that to play a kobold, you have to be a rogue, have a 20 Dex (likely meaning you've sacrificed other stats), and wasted your first level feat on Skill Focus? That seems a little limiting. No. It implies you have to do that to play a kobold with practically no chance of being caught at first level. Skill Focus (Hide) isn't a waste of a feat, especially since it can be retrained at 6th, when the character will have more enough ranks in Hide to pull it off without the feat. (Rogues aren't the only class with Hide as a class skill, BTW.) A more reasonable assumption is: d20 + 4 Dex (+3 for non-Rogues) + 4 ranks (+2 for non-rogues) + 4 size = d20+12 for Rogues or d20+9 for non-Rogues. That's a reasonable assumption about the kind of build someone would play if they were a kobold living in a kobold-friendly area. Kobolds living in a place where their kind are routinely hunted should have to invest resources in reducing that 20 to 30% chance of getting nabbed. Hiding also requires many other environmental conditions and you're moving very slowly. It's impractical to hide the entire adventure. There are also Disguise checks that might have to be made as well (It's pretty tough to 'hide' from your party for the whole adventure), which in general are going to be much lower (since non-sorcerer kobolds will likely not have great charisma, nor is there a racial bonus). It isn't clear to me whether the Triad's mechanic involves the "you need cover to make a Hide check" rule. The spirit of it seems to be that you can use the Hide skill to avoid getting found out as a kobold, even though you may not be using it to hide. If that is what they intended, then the environmental conditions and slow movement points are moot. The checks themselves are not a huge problem. However, the penalties for failing these checks are in my opinion, and that of many others, way too severe and cross the line into disruption of the game table as well as the adventure. The average penalty for characters who submit will be 11 TUs and the loss of magic weapons. The average penalty for characters who flee and are caught will be 16.5 TUs and the loss of magic weapons. Really, though, the loss of magic weapons isn't as bad as it sounds. Magic weapons are expensive, and characters of high enough level to have them are even less likely to get caught. (A hat of disguise is cheaper than even a +1 club, and a potion of cat's grace is cheaper still.)
Harliquinn 08-08-07, 02:45 PM	I do have to point out that Kobold cards are still being sent to people and I doubt that many of them have yet even started their careers. These rules will no doubt be proclaimed far and wide and hopefully will not come as surprise to anyone. I agree. I don't think there will be a huge influx of kobolds (though there could be). However, I'm one of the players that will be rejoining Living Greyhawk specifically to play a kobold. I am in Veluna, and those policies are still being formulated, but I believe they will be at least fair to the players (though I imagine it will still be rough going for the kobolds at first). No one is about to lose his level 12+ holy avenger wielding paladin character over these rules. These are restrictions coming to place for PCs which for the most part don't even exist and are not probably something that new player will play, seeing that it requires quite a few reward points to actually get that card. True, however, certain policies don't have any provisions explicitly stated in the rules for how a kobold could become more trusted and eventually even respected as a productive member of society. Even Nyrond's policy (which many thought too harsh), has explicit means by which kobolds can gain citizenship (3 special AR's) and has identified some kobold-friendly intro modules to get them started. While there may not be a lot of kobolds with equipment, etc. now, given a few months, kobolds will likely have as much to lose as anyone else with no real 'hope' in sight for protection in many places. I am definetly in the camp that Triads can preserve their regional flavor if they choose so and if regions history shows that kobolds are not welcome, then I don't see how their sudden & full integration into society could be justified. I don't think anyone, particularly the strongest proponents of kobolds, expect that kobolds will suddenly be cherished citizens. However, even harsh rules should be tempered with a 'hope' for redemption within a reasonable amount of time. I think it should be possible for individual kobolds (if not the Mist Kobold society as a whole) to gain tolerance and in some cases respect in most regions, particularly if they have served the regions' interests from the beginning. I imagine this should be particularly try in those regions that are considered lawful. And in case anyone is interested, one local player expressed an opinion that our rules on kobolds were far too lenient and should be much stricter. We see what other player feedback is and determine if we tighten the current rules. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad I'm glad to see some Triad members voicing in on the discussion (which I hope continues as it's an important big step for Living Greyhawk). I'm not familiar with the Naerie position on kobolds, but I would agree its easier to have tighter rules to start and then relax them over time. There is always a point though where very harsh rules (not Naerie specific just in general) mean no one would bother and that's a shame, since it could add a bit of living flair to some campaigns.
mlund 08-08-07, 02:51 PM	There are some regions that have difficulty keeping 3 triad seats filled as it is, let alone forcing them out of office. Obviously you have to meet the needs of the region. In places where people are dissatisfied and people are willing to step up and assume the responsibility, turn-over should be matter of course. In places where you can barely keep seats filled you need to take a different approach. You "risk loosing" people simply due to the nature that you are loosing people. You lose people when they will contribute no further. By that I mean you are removing someone from the post and replacing them with someone who might be worse. You might also replace then with someone who is better. Living in fear of getting someone who is worse is one of the main reasons why companies, clubs, and governments decay. I'm not implying that they wouldn't want to contribute on some level, but the average quality of "those in charge" could suffer. That would be a loss. Quality also suffers through stagnation - and certainly through the notion that someone has "ownership" or is can not be replaced. Also, what would your "term limit" be? The lifespan of LG is going to be far shorter than that of a real world nation thus the terms would most likely be suggested to be shorter (or not worthwhile). Well, yeah. I'd say terms of either 1 or 2 years. No member can serve consecutive terms without special dispensation. Selection of the next Triad should be completed at least 3 months in advance so that they can work with the existing Triad to make a clean transition into the next year. If you have the term be short, you'd run the risk of extremely short sighted vision on continual story arcs. I've heard far too many stories from various triad members, past and present, about how their region changed dramatically when triad members changed posts. If people weren't so vested in making the region conform to their "grand vision," it wouldn't be as noteworthy. Having someone up-end a Region is no worse than having some tin-dice despot running "his" region into the ground until it isn't fun for everyone anymore - but at least it conforms to the "grand vision" and "makes sense" to the Triad. Additionally, cooperation and transition periods would allow for continuity. I know you mean well, and obviously I merely have a difference of opinion, but I think forcing them out is a horrendously bad idea. I think letting them fester for too long is the horrendously bad idea - and the cause of a lot of unnecessary conflicts and bad blood. Just because you don't like their decision, doesn't immediately translate into them doing a "poor job". However, this comes down to opinion thus neither one being "wrong". Again, if you understand that WotC owns Living Greyhawk and not the Triads, then any time a Triad institutes some ham-fisted, self-gratifying, "grand vision," policy that undercuts moves Wizards is doing with the brand and breaks the "rule of fun" already they are, by definition doing a bad job as volunteers working under wizards. They may be doing a great job as appeasers of their personal friends that happen to be haters / purists - but that's not their actual job. - Marty Lund
Harliquinn 08-08-07, 02:53 PM	No. It implies you have to do that to play a kobold with practically no chance of being caught at first level. Skill Focus (Hide) isn't a waste of a feat, especially since it can be retrained at 6th, when the character will have more enough ranks in Hide to pull it off without the feat. (Rogues aren't the only class with Hide as a class skill, BTW.) That's a reasonable assumption about the kind of build someone would play if they were a kobold living in a kobold-friendly area. Kobolds living in a place where their kind are routinely hunted should have to invest resources in reducing that 20 to 30% chance of getting nabbed. The big issue is though that these kobolds weren't 'born' into the society where they are hunted and killed on sight. It's very meta-game like to create a character *just* to survive a region where you are killed on sight if you weren't brought up there. It's much more likely that these kobolds will 'learn' to keep their head down rather than having trained for it from birth (Assuming I read the cards right that these kobolds come from the Mist Kingdoms and were not born into each region). Therefore the assumption that a kobold comes from a friendly area is accurate. They are now in hostile territory and will need to learn to adapt (That's a given), but this adaptation isn't something that should be in all the kobolds' backgrounds. If this is the case, then all kobolds are expected to start out the same and kobold society (reading the Races of the Dragon) is anything but like that. All kobolds have a role to play and its simply not realistic to assume all kobolds coming from the Mist Kingdoms are rogues, rangers or barbarians with hide as a class skill and the feat Skill Focus (hide). It isn't clear to me whether the Triad's mechanic involves the "you need cover to make a Hide check" rule. The spirit of it seems to be that you can use the Hide skill to avoid getting found out as a kobold, even though you may not be using it to hide. If that is what they intended, then the environmental conditions and slow movement points are moot. It's possible this is true. However, their disregard and changing of core rules aside, it's not stated and is very much open to DM / Player interpretation. The average penalty for characters who submit will be 11 TUs and the loss of magic weapons. The average penalty for characters who flee and are caught will be 16.5 TUs and the loss of magic weapons. Really, though, the loss of magic weapons isn't as bad as it sounds. Magic weapons are expensive, and characters of high enough level to have them are even less likely to get caught. (A hat of disguise is cheaper than even a +1 club, and a potion of cat's grace is cheaper still.) First, I did misread the decree and read "magic items" instead of "magic weapons" so that is my fault. However, this line This imprisonment can be repeated again and again. shows that every adventure has the opportunity for more TUs to be taken away on all the outcome of a bad die roll. Another thing to consider is if all kobolds walk around with Hats of Disguise 24 hours a day, then the policies of the Yeomanry can never change since any 'good deeds' will be attributes to the influx of "gnomes" and "halflings" around the towns. It's a catch-22: If you want acceptance as a kobold, you risk being able to play very few adventures, losing magical weapons, or being killed every adventure. If you play by the rules the region has set out and 'hide' or 'disguise' yourself constantly, then you will never be accepted as a kobold, but as some other race. Harliquinn
mlund 08-08-07, 02:55 PM	http://www.nyrond.org/download/kobold_pcs_in_the_kingdom_of_nyrond.pdf Basically, they're mistrusted at first, have to jump through hoops, etc. but there is a way to earn citizenship. Some people's concern is that DMs-with-an-agenda can use this to hammer down legal choice instead of represent regional flavor. Bad DMs can always cause havoc. :( Let's look it at it a different way: They are banned from participating in roughly 40% of game content in the region. If they fail a single skill check they are killed at worst and banished at best - either way removed from Nyrond. The idea that they can "earn citizenship" is nothing more than window-dressing right now because the mechanics are set up specifically to prune Kobolds out of campaigns and to pit players against one another for bringing a Kobold to the table and "bringing everyone else down." Basically, it reads, "You can't play right now, but maybe we'll get around to making it available ... if we feel like it ... which we don't right now, obviously ..." - Marty Lund
Pint_Glass_Crusader 08-08-07, 02:57 PM	I can solve this kobold problem instantly... A [level one] Paladin at every gate... "Not evil... Not evil... Not evil... EVIL!!! smite him!!! Not evil... Not evil..." Problem solved! But, why stop at Kobolds? There might be evil lurking everywhere! Paladins should be employed to root out the hidden evil in all cities across Flannesse! Incidentally I will be playing a Paladin/Marshal for GHR... just thought I would mention that. ;)
mlund 08-08-07, 03:06 PM	I can solve this kobold problem instantly... A [level one] Paladin at every gate... The Shield Lands already showed a very mature and responsible way of handling the issue in a society that is set against the forces of Evil. The take the suspicious individuals in question and vet them. If they are a threat, you kill them. If they are not a threat, you let them go. In this case, PC Kobolds are allowed to play, though they are not warmly received and generally mistrusted. Nyrond takes suspicious individual in question and either executes them summarily or vets them. If they are a thread, you kill them. If they are not a threat, you banish them. Either way Kobold PCs are not allowed to play because they are removed from the Region. - Marty Lund
Redfist 08-08-07, 03:06 PM	Again, if you understand that WotC owns Living Greyhawk and not the Triads, then any time a Triad institutes some ham-fisted, self-gratifying, "grand vision," policy that undercuts moves Wizards is doing with the brand and breaks the "rule of fun" already they are, by definition doing a bad job as volunteers working under wizards. They may be doing a great job as appeasers of their personal friends that happen to be haters / purists - but that's not their actual job. - Marty Lund I'd argue that Triads members are by-and-large doing a great job, and not just for their friends. If there is a case where one isn't, their Circle member can ask them to step down. Having some arbitrary turn-over system isn't needed. The campaign has been running great for 7 years. I'm personally very happy with Nyrond's triad and other triads from other regions I've met as well. (I travel a fair amount). Turn-over also implies learning curve - repeating old mistakes, etc. I think avoiding these things has been good for the campaign. I also disagree with your representation over Nyrond's Kobold document or assumed motivations behind its creation. I don't believe they have done anything that is ham-fisted, self-gratifying or breaking fun. Rather they are adapting to change and continuing to put challenge in front of players. More than any other region I've seen, they're enabling their player base (wrt. the "Kobold issue"), to actually impact the future of the region. That's all "good stuff" in my view. If you really wish to have a term limit system put in place - ask WoTC. I wouldn't hold your breath though. When running a volunteer organization that also ends up supporting your SALES, it's typically going to be considered a bad idea to boot those volunteers routinely.
Harliquinn 08-08-07, 03:09 PM	Let's look it at it a different way: They are banned from participating in roughly 40% of game content in the region. If they fail a single skill check they are killed at worst and banished at best - either way removed from Nyrond. The idea that they can "earn citizenship" is nothing more than window-dressing right now because the mechanics are set up specifically to prune Kobolds out of campaigns and to pit players against one another for bringing a Kobold to the table and "bringing everyone else down." Basically, it reads, "You can't play right now, but maybe we'll get around to making it available ... if we feel like it ... which we don't right now, obviously ..." - Marty Lund I read the Nyrond policy and perhaps I'm missing something, but I didn't see where they can't participate in 40% of the content. If you mean the cities, then I guess that could be true. However, I didn't see anything in the rules about PC's / players having to work against one another (which is clearly stated in the Yeomanry rules). If you assume a table of 6, and the other characters can be persuaded to 'vouch' for the kobold PC, you could get 5 Aid Anothers on the diplomacy check to enter a village or city and not have to roll quite as high. If you make this roll you can pretty much walk around but with no weapons or spells (Not a horrible thing and something that could be expected in most areas to start). If you violate *this* then you might be arrested/killed. It seems that Nyrond rules go to mostly reasonable lengths before a character is killed. I disagree that Nyrond is pruning kobolds. I would say they are actually trying to make it work from the combination of special intro mods for kobolds and the availability of citizenship. I'm not sure why it's window-dressing since it's clearly defined how to accomplish this. I'll assume that the AR's are not going to be exceedingly difficult to get. Harliquinn
Redfist 08-08-07, 03:09 PM	Let's look it at it a different way: They are banned from participating in roughly 40% of game content in the region. If they fail a single skill check they are killed at worst and banished at best - either way removed from Nyrond. The idea that they can "earn citizenship" is nothing more than window-dressing right now because the mechanics are set up specifically to prune Kobolds out of campaigns and to pit players against one another for bringing a Kobold to the table and "bringing everyone else down." Basically, it reads, "You can't play right now, but maybe we'll get around to making it available ... if we feel like it ... which we don't right now, obviously ..." - Marty Lund Presenting opinions as facts doesn't further your cause. You have interpreted the document one way, plenty of other Nyrond players have interpretted it another. Time will tell.
mlund 08-08-07, 03:15 PM	I'd argue that Triads members are by-and-large doing a great job, and not just for their friends. If there is a case where one isn't, their Circle member can ask them to step down. See, that causes unnecessary conflict. You can campaign for or against removal of an individual. You get into popularity contests. You make the issue personal. You subject whistle-blowers to retaliation. You require the Circle to burn bridges. Those things take away from the Organized Play experience. When the turn-over is automatic these problems are seriously reduced, and you still have the same (if not more) opportunity to draw from a pool of talented individuals. Having some arbitrary turn-over system isn't needed. The campaign has been running great for 7 years. I'm personally very happy with Nyrond's triad and other triads from other regions I've met as well. (I travel a fair amount). I'm generally happy too. I'm disappointed with some of the decisions. I'm disappointed with a number of the modules issued. I'd like to see some new blood creatively that might be able to remove a few proud nails while knowing enough not to mess with a good thing. Turn-over also implies learning curve - repeating old mistakes, etc. I think avoiding these things has been good for the campaign. Lack of turn-over implies stagnation - repeating the same old mistakes and missing the same opportunities due to being too invested in one particular perspective. If you really wish to have a term limit system put in place - ask WoTC. That's why I brought up the issue on the WotC boards specifically. I want them to manage their brand more effectively. I know they can do a good job. I've worked with them through the DCI end of Organized play before. I wouldn't hold your breath though. When running a volunteer organization that also ends up supporting your SALES, it's typically going to be considered a bad idea to boot those volunteers routinely. When your volunteers denigrate the products you try to sell and fight against branding / marketing ideas because they have "a better vision" it is time to consider refreshing the body of volunteers. - Marty Lund
control freak 08-08-07, 03:16 PM	I can solve this kobold problem instantly... A [level one] Paladin at every gate... "Not evil... Not evil... Not evil... EVIL!!! smite him!!! Not evil... Not evil..." Problem solved! But, why stop at Kobolds? There might be evil lurking everywhere! Paladins should be employed to root out the hidden evil in all cities across Flannesse! Incidentally I will be playing a Paladin/Marshal for GHR... just thought I would mention that. its brilliant, and would prevent the triads from being more control freaking then i am, there fore it can never be spoken of again (burns your idea)
Divine Dwarf 08-08-07, 03:18 PM	The Nyrond proclamation against Kobolds is possibly the most harsh I've seen since the Urnst "kill on sight" policy was struck down. The Yeomany proclamation is probably the worst since then, and should probably warrant the Urnst treatment. Nyrond have a strict "skill check or out of the mod" policy in place that make it very clear that the Triad puts the "purity" of "their" sandbox ahead of any fun the wrong-headed players and meddling Circle might try to foist off on them. ... Frankly, I think behavior like this from various Triads ought to be a wake-up call to the Circle that perhaps some Triad members have over-stayed their time in office and become too possessive / dictatorial of "their" region. - Marty Lund A) is everyone wrong-headed if they don't want universal Kobold acceptance (aka Marty's view)? B) do you not understand the progression from Triad to meta-rep to Circle? <snip> D) do you really think this is the Nyrond Triad on a power grab, and not just creating a carefully thought out provision for having a community with a bias against evil dogmen to slowly accept a new racial variant through a series of tests? <snip> <snip> what do you propose? sack all the triads because they didn't make life pleasant for the cousins of little evil dogmen with 400 years of evil acts? when you find out that several other regions have enacted similar restrictions your defense is that ours is the worst and should soon suffer the fate of CoU? Your use of the word "should" is a pretty clear indicator of how you presume to know what's best for everyone and everything. So are you are next Triad marty? Because your logic is so infallible on Improved Buckler Defense? <snip>
Umbra_Kaitou 08-08-07, 03:24 PM	I agree that Nyronds ruling does seem very harsh, but they are making an intro mod that could very well alleviate a lot of that, so in my opinion now, its wait and see. Personally, i dont get to Nyrond much and thus only have my one devoted character, but If i were to play there more often, I'd want to cheese out a Kobold Diplogun just to get past those rules. plus..glibness anyone?
mlund 08-08-07, 03:24 PM	I read the Nyrond policy and perhaps I'm missing something, but I didn't see where they can't participate in 40% of the content. If you mean the cities, then I guess that could be true. Yes, I mean the cities. My characters routines hit major encounters in cities and towns in Nyrond. Kobolds, by policy, are arrested for contributing to such encounters. It doesn't matter if you stab a Pit Fiend attempting to eat babies in an orphanage in the middle of Rel Mord or a little old Lady in Ragby - you still get your head taken off. If you assume a table of 6, and the other characters can be persuaded to 'vouch' for the kobold PC, you could get 5 Aid Anothers on the diplomacy check to enter a village or city and not have to roll quite as high. Unless, like many modules, your group actually forms at, say, an Inn or other civilized setting - in which case you can't draw on anyone to help you get into the scene in the first place. If you make this roll you can pretty much walk around but with no weapons or spells (Not a horrible thing and something that could be expected in most areas to start). If you violate *this* then you might be arrested/killed. It seems that Nyrond rules go to mostly reasonable lengths before a character is killed. The real problem is that once you draw attention - either by failing a skill check or actually participating in an urban encounter - you are removed from the module, and at least banned from the settlement in question, if not removed from the Region entire - without recourse. I'll assume that the AR's are not going to be exceedingly difficult to get. You need favors / influence points from people / organizations that are associated with mostly urban environments - environments where participating in encounters without an assumed identity gets you kicked out the module. It is a catch-22. - Marty Lund
control freak 08-08-07, 03:25 PM	no but he is right "duck, duck, duck, duck, NOT A DUCK! SMITE HIM!!!" its true that theres no reason that this wouldnt work unless your in the BK.... but then you wouldnt need it (laughs)
Divine Dwarf 08-08-07, 03:26 PM	When your volunteers denigrate the products you try to sell and fight against branding / marketing ideas because they have "a better vision" it is time to consider refreshing the body of volunteers. - Marty Lund exaggerate much? WoTC releases dozens of books yearly. Not all will see inclusion in LG. Tome of Magic, Incarnum, etc. Plenty of Races of Dragon material is already allowed in LG, draconic heritage feats, etc. NPCs and monsters can use much of this too. The book IS Being used and is being "Plugged" since you're now so worried about the marketing aspect of poor WoTC. The simple fact that one horrible choice of new race inclusion is not getting broadspread univeral support and love, despite being a derivative of an evil race, has nothing to do with the EVIL THAT IS THE TRIAD MAKING A CONSCIOUS DECISION TO NOT PROMOTE RACES OF THE DRAGON. this is the worst leap in spurious correlation I've seen you make yet, and you've had some doozies. that's just reaching for straws. you're only succeeding in alienating yourself, not the triad. take a deep breath, step back and decide if you want to announce yourself to the world and Nyrond region as the guy who's on a personal mission to rid us of our hard-working triad so you can find someone else to carry out your goals for WoTC? It's not even remotely plausible. I mean, is this a suspend reality demonstration? Josh who apparently lost an informed discussion partner today
Redfist 08-08-07, 03:32 PM	When your volunteers denigrate the products you try to sell and fight against branding / marketing ideas because they have "a better vision" it is time to consider refreshing the body of volunteers. - Marty Lund That is a really degrading assumption to make and I think typifies the fallicy in your point of view. I would rather replace someone based on what they actually do than the broad brush of corruption, neglect and incompetance with which you paint the Triad members. Shameful.
mlund 08-08-07, 03:33 PM	A) is everyone wrong-headed if they don't want universal Kobold acceptance (aka Marty's view)? Since I haven't advocated Kobold acceptance, but rather than ability to play them without being unduly removed from the modules, I'd have to say this is just a flame. < SNIP a bunch of personal attacks, flames, and other board-rules violations. > Your attitude on this whole affair is tragic, basically agree with me or you're wrong and need to be replaced. That's basically how turn-over in offices works - be they elected or board-appointed. I know what kind of system I want and service I'd prefer. I want the company to provide it. They don't have to do it, but I'll state whether I think it is correct or incorrect. You're always right, you can prove it through logic, and anyone who doesn't agree with your compelling arguments is a fool. Yes, because I've denigrated the intelligence of individuals herein. < SNIP more CoC violations > Enjoy playing your Kobold and whining about arbritary judging entitled and empowered to be evil because the incompetent triad allowed it... NO encouraged it. I don't have a Kobold card. I'm not likely to be playing a Kobold, seeing as my roster is full at the moment. I do, however, see things that are being done in Living Greyhawk - and in my own region, that I do not like. I have my reasons for not liking them and have suggested alternatives. The fact that other people constantly have to resort to personal attacks outside of the matter at hand every time someone says, "I'm not satisfied. This isn't the right way to do things," is just one more reason why turn-over should be one of those things that's handled mechanically rather than by hue-and-cry and subsequent retaliation. "You want a change in the Triad!? I can't be friends with you anymore or even treat you with civility." - indeed - Marty Lund
Divine Dwarf 08-08-07, 03:39 PM	Again, if you understand that WotC owns Living Greyhawk and not the Triads, then any time a Triad institutes some ham-fisted, self-gratifying, "grand vision," policy that undercuts moves Wizards is doing with the brand and breaks the "rule of fun" already they are, by definition doing a bad job as volunteers working under wizards. They may be doing a great job as appeasers of their personal friends that happen to be haters / purists - but that's not their actual job. - Marty Lund Marty, if you've resorted to this kind of name-calling, you're obviously done making useful posts on this subject. Consider taking a break for a spell, and stop IMPARTING your OPINION as fact regarding others' behavior. You're way out of line, still trying to sound sophisticated and omniscient. It's not working. You are not in a position to be capable of assessing the job our triad is doing. You have insufficient campaign knowledge or experience. Please pause for a reality check here. *deep breath* Josh
Mithreinmaethor 08-08-07, 03:45 PM	exaggerate much? WoTC releases dozens of books yearly. Not all will see inclusion in LG. Tome of Magic, Incarnum, etc. Plenty of Races of Dragon material is already allowed in LG, draconic heritage feats, etc. NPCs and monsters can use much of this too. The book IS Being used and is being "Plugged" since you're now so worried about the marketing aspect of poor WoTC. The simple fact that one horrible choice of new race inclusion is not getting broadspread univeral support and love, despite being a derivative of an evil race, has nothing to do with the EVIL THAT IS THE TRIAD MAKING A CONSCIOUS DECISION TO NOT PROMOTE RACES OF THE DRAGON. this is the worst leap in spurious correlation I've seen you make yet, and you've had some doozies. that's just reaching for straws. you're only succeeding in alienating yourself, not the triad. take a deep breath, step back and decide if you want to announce yourself to the world and Nyrond region as the guy who's on a personal mission to rid us of our hard-working triad so you can find someone else to carry out your goals for WoTC? It's not even remotely plausible. I mean, is this a suspend reality demonstration? Josh who apparently lost an informed discussion partner today Be careful they will think you are my equally evil twin. :) And sorry to the others if I dont fall prey to your attempts to draw me in further by calling out my manhood or calling me a coward etc. I left those games behind over twenty years ago. So you can justify your righteousness however you like. Call it back peddling, cowardice whatever. The person it was meant for got it. And yes I like many other people have opinions about Kobold's, just like you do. And as I stated before there would not be such a problem as we are seeing now had this been done as part of a core plot arc. But its not like they can take the cards back now. So we will just spend the remainder of this year and probably most of next dealing with this in all the regions. If the board moderators or any of the Circle want to know who I am they can ask (and some already know). I wont be traveling to play LG on either coast anyhow, so you dont have to worry about running into me.
mlund 08-08-07, 03:49 PM	That is a really degrading assumption to make and I think typifies the fallicy in your point of view. I would rather replace someone based on what they actually do than the broad brush of corruption, neglect and incompetance with which you paint the Triad members. The problem here is that I don't think any particular Triad or Triad member is corrupt, neglectful, or incompetent. I think that some may be too possessive or set-in-their ways for my tastes, but that's nothing terribly serious. It certainly doesn't make them bad people or bad at their jobs overall. I still prefer campaign systems that lend themselves more to turn-over without it being some sort of humiliation / punishment but rather a natural process that keeps things fresh and cooperative. I'm inclined to believe it could lead to better results - including a reduction in the inclination to think of a particular region in a possessive fashion. As to the individual rules / rulings / judgments I have a bone to pick with, I can think those wrong without thinking the person behind them is some sort of bad guy. I can think someone pooched a particular task or call and still like him / her. I can also opine that the system is sub-optimal without deciding that everyone that supports it is some sort of a jerk. - Marty Lund
chesspiece 08-08-07, 03:52 PM	Stepping away from the pro-/con- Triad comments for a moment… I predict that many CY596-598 Yeomanry modules will be solved by accusing the BBEG of being a kobold. He’d immediately be forced to flee or submit to incarceration with no chance of fighting back. :) BTW, were there anti-troglodyte rules before Alter Self became Closed? Just wondering.
WizO_Mimir 08-08-07, 03:57 PM	Let's keep the discussion on topic and avoid making personal attacks. WizO_Mimir RPG Boards Lead
Redfist 08-08-07, 04:01 PM	The problem here is that I don't think any particular Triad or Traid member is corrupt, neglectful, or incompetent. I think that some may be too possessive or set-in-their ways for my tastes, but that's nothing terribly serious. It certainly doesn't make them bad people or bad at their jobs overall. Your posts seem to indicate the opposite. Implications of self-gratifying, ham-fisted, market degrading activities seem to imply that this particular statement isn't quite honest. Your posts have the tone of "throw the bums out". I still prefer campaign systems that lend themselves more to turn-over without it being some sort of humiliation / punishment but rather a natural process that keeps things fresh and cooperative. I'm inclined to believe it could lead to better results. Then find one? I personally am happy with how the campaign is being run. I think it would be horribly de-motivating to "thank" people for their tireless efforts by throwing them out of office only to have someone else end up destroying or perverting what they were working towards. You'd end up with people who aren't as committed to the end goal since they won't be around for it. In fact, you'd end up with people who are more careless because they wouldn't have to stick around to clean up their own mess. LG is what it is and has been sucessful for many years. The circle and triads are doing great jobs collectively. I think it is perhaps arrogant for you to believe you have the magic wand to fix it's imagined woes when you haven't been involved at enough levels to truely appreciate the dynamics of what it's taken to make it successful thus far. I haven't been either, hence why I'm inclined to TRUST those who have been doing such a good job all along. This whole debate is silly and won't terminate. So... if you wish the last word, take it.
KShaver 08-08-07, 04:11 PM	*deep breath* Josh Always a good thing. While I can't say that I want to throw out all the Triad members on a regular basis like Marty does I do think players should have some sort of input on how they think their triad is doing. Maybe a poll accessable via ones RPGA account or something. I'll also note that while I like the fact that Nyrond seems to be offering some special goodies to kobolds, their general views are still too harsh. I object to the fact that the Nyrond kobolds are going to need to participate in 3 specific modules to get their chance at citizenship. This kind of thinking assumes that every player is going to play every module, and this just isn't the case, some will and others won't/can't. I'm appalled by the fact that some Nyrond kobolds are going to be let into the cities no problem, while others who just miss that check aren't. The guards are acting like bouncers at an exclusive club, not representatives of the law when they do this. As far as Yeomanry goes I too would like to question the use of hide to not be discovered. A kobold may avoid jail/labor in an adventure by hiding the entire time from everyone including his own party? How does the kobold participate while never revealing to anyone that he is there? Shouldn't move silently checks also be involved, as well as taking into account cover (sans hide in plain sight), or is this just a massive oversight of the basic rules like not allowing them to take 10s.
KarmaInferno 08-08-07, 04:18 PM	Warning, opinionated comments ahead. WotC and the Circle have decreed that a new rules option is to be open to all players who have the card. (which is a lot of people). Given that, it is the duty of each triad to figure out how to incorporate this new allowed rules option. This means coming up with a good reason why this new option is now present and allowed in their region. At a minimum, the allowance of kobolds into general play should mean that a new kobold player should be able to have the expectation of not just being arrested or attacked on sight. This might have to keep their noses clean and absolutely avoid causing trouble, but just walking around in the region shouldn't trigger a roll-or-get-kicked-from-the-table check. Possibly specific areas within the region or certain plotlines might make things more difficult for the PC, but a player should never have to hear "Roll a die to see if you get to play at all" upon arriving at a table. Certainly, this is difficult in some regions that have strong anti-kobold histories. Finding an in-game rationalization on why this new pack of critters is somehow more accepted than others of their kind might take some serious creative thinking. Ulek came up with a good one, a respected NPC of power has come out and vouched for the new kobold arrivals. The little guys still might not be completely trusted by the commonfolk of the region, but at least the new rules option is now playable. Forcing a die roll to see if a player instantly out of the adventure, every time a commoner so much as comes near you, does not indicate to me that the triad of the Yeomanry have in any way that matters accepted this duty. They have virtually rejected the new rules option, not tried to work it into the region. To the triads: Quite frankly, if you personally don't like the new rules option, tough. You're the Triads. Presumably you are in such positions because you have shown some skill and creativity in administering a region. Suck it up and figure out a good reason why these little buggers are suddenly not on the "kill or arrest on sight" list. It shouldn't be THAT hard. To the triads that have successfully done so: Great! You took an unexpected punch and rolled with it masterfully. i look forwards in happy anticipation to the future effects and plotlines that may stem from this. -karma who does not even have a kobold card
mlund 08-08-07, 04:22 PM	double post
mlund 08-08-07, 04:27 PM	Your posts seem to indicate the opposite. Implications of self-gratifying, ham-fisted, market degrading activities seem to imply that this particular statement isn't quite honest. No, that's taking a statement without context - easy to do at a fast pace and a heated discussion. That comment was made in direct response to the claim that one can't say a Triad did a "bad job," because it is just a matter of opinion. I think took the theoretically worst-case hyperbole of a (hypothetical) Triad's behavior to challenge the notion that somehow you can't say that they did a bad job. If any member of any Triad felt I was calling them out as a "self-gratifying," or "tin-dice despots" I'm very sorry. Your posts have the tone of "throw the bums out". I'm sorry if the tone of my post makes it seem like I want Triad members strung up or their dogs kidnapped or something. I do want to see change-ups. That doesn't mean I think people are "bums." I do think it is possible to be both a Triad member and do a bad job, and have that job be judged as a bad job. I do think having some turn-over is good for the position. It forces people to take a set back and reevaluate. I also think letting people become Triad members on multiple non-consecutive terms would be fine. I think it would be horribly de-motivating to "thank" people for their tireless efforts by throwing them out of office only to have someone else end up destroying or perverting what they were working towards. Well, "destroying," and "perverting," are pretty subjective. What Triads are ideally striving towards is fun for the region - first and foremost - not "art." Also, I'll reiterate that non-Triad members make tons of great contributions to their Regions. I don't agree with the idea that by removing the overruling authority of creative control means that ex-Triad members suddenly can't contribute or work towards tell stories. You'd end up with people who aren't as committed to the end goal since they won't be around for it. In fact, you'd end up with people who are more careless because they wouldn't have to stick around to clean up their own mess. Well, ideally people participate in Region-building because they enjoy it and want to share something with their fellow players. They contribute whether they are "in charge" or not. Ideally you do a good job because you want to make a difference, and maybe you want to be at the top of the list when you are eligible to serve again. Plus, you still have to game with the people who live with any messes you leave behind. Turn-over is one of the things that keeps a lot of clubs vibrant. In at least one fraternal that I know of that has a "triad" of trustees in which one turns over every year. Many officer positions turn over on an annual basis as well. They keep a sense of continuity and accomplishment despite this. They have a lot of charities and partners that they don't drop every time there is turn-over. This works well, and I don't think they have anywhere near the power / corruption problem of a government. - Marty Lund
KarmaInferno 08-08-07, 04:33 PM	double post
Zarron 08-08-07, 04:42 PM	Could a PC tracker just lie? "Man... can't find the guy, even with your help Sam."
solbergb 08-08-07, 04:44 PM	My issue with the Nyrond and Yeomanry is that it is actually a lot easier to play an open Paladin of Cuthbert in the Bandit Kingdoms than it is to play a lawful good paladin of (good draconic/kobold god) in Nyrond. That seems wrong to me. Just saying. (for those not visiting the BK, a paladin starts out with an automatic "Wanted Church of Iuz" score, but it isn't anywhere near the level where you actually really do need to be disguised to function in-region - things cost a bit more and you get into bigger trouble faster than, say, a half-orc rogue. Getting that level of hate requires you to do something effective against Iuzians and their allies. Even high WCI scores won't normally cause commoners to recognize you. There are a LOT of adventurers on the wanted posters. If they do recognize you, then things get harder if iuzians are around, easier if rebels are around) I'm not saying Yeomanry or Nyrond should be happy about kobolds, but nobody should have their character held hostage to being mugged and robbed via a single die roll mechanic every time anyone sees them (Yeomanry) or be prevented from contributing to urban adventures (Nyrond - and a LOT of encounters happen in cities. The weapon restrictions are bad enough and easily overcome with nominal metaorg membership for those they really matter to) In the Pale, Hieronean and Cuthbertite adventurers can play if they don't cause trouble, even though Hieroneans invaded our country and occupied it for 20 years, and Cuthbertites have been proven in court to consort with fiends to overthow our government and also tend to have trouble with the prostylitization laws. These triads need to get over themselves and actually think about the metagame implications of their new "flavor". If a character type is a valid game option, they need to make it playable.
ToddMorgan 08-08-07, 05:06 PM	All this talk of what the Triads are/aren't doing about kobolds assumes that all of the DMs in the regions will follow these rules to the letter. Certainly there are lazy DMs who don't want to put up with the "hassle" of doing this, and there are the DMs that really don't agree with their Triad and won't follow the rules. Whether or not this is right/wrong, it's just plain going to happen, with the possible exception of large conventions where members of the Triad are present. I'm not condoning or condemning these actions, I'm just saying, don't have a hissy fit about it.
GreatSiron 08-08-07, 05:11 PM	Actually, my problem with the Yeomanry's ruling wasn't the fact Kobolds always get the short end of the stick, (I had always planned to play him stictly in core mods), it's the fact that my Chaotic Good miltiaman is REQUIRED to arrest Kobold regardless of what they are doing. He joined the militia to protect his new home from the Scarlet Brotherhood, not harry misinformed travelers. Althought the triad hasn't ruled on what happens if another PC actually tries to help a Kobold, I'm willing to bet, given the dispostion of one of the members, that my miltiaman won't be one very long. (He'll either quit or be fired, if not worse).
CdrcJsn 08-08-07, 06:12 PM	Even though the region I'm in (the Pale) isn't taking a stricter stance, I personally don't mind the more rigid rules enforced in other regions. What I do find annoying though are arbitrary DCs and flat out rule breaking. Nyrond's rule for diplomacy DC 25 is reasonable enough (changing attitude from hostile to indifferent is a DC 25). Yeomanry's "can't take 10 on disguise checks and substitute hide for disguise" is flat out breaking the rules. If the ones in charge of making and enforcing the rules can't be bothered to use the core rules for the campaign, it sorta calls into question the validity and balance of the proposed rule in the first place.
clannagh 08-08-07, 07:53 PM	soooo .... if a party of ALL kobolds play in the Yeomanry. Are they obliged to try and arrest each other ??????
Zanzibax 08-08-07, 08:59 PM	I find kobolds annoying. I find the sudden and arbitrary introduction of a traditionally evil race as a PC optional race to be ill-conceived. This wasn't well-thought out, and it isn't justifiable. That said, there are many people who want to play a kobold. I find it easy to believe that so many D&D gamers have no other way to get a little tail. :devil:
Zanzibax 08-08-07, 09:00 PM	soooo .... if a party of ALL kobolds play in the Yeomanry. Are they obliged to try and arrest each other ?????? Double reward-points if they do!:evillaugh
waytoomuchcoffee 08-08-07, 09:53 PM	I feel like I am missing something here. The card comes right out and says "you must be cautious, as kobolds are killed on sight in many places". The card doesn't say it will be a walk in the park. It says it will be an extreme challenge. The very fact you have the card means you are not a new Greyhawk player, and should expect it to be difficult. The Nyrond law leaves a lot of "outs". Be Good, be good at certain skills, and if you are killed your party gets the body. Hell in the Pale if you get convicted of Heresy you are burned at the stake and your ashes scattered to the winds - no raise dead there. It comes down to that you don't have a "right" to be a Kobold. Just like you don't have the right be play a particular non-open PrC. We need the scarcity enforced to make those extras special. You got the card free, as a bonus; you don't have to play it; and if you do play it expect to be killed. If you do play it as it was intended to be - a challenge. If you want to make it less of a challenge you can always just play Cores.
clannagh 08-08-07, 09:55 PM	Double reward-points if they do!:evillaugh the question is if you capture a fellow kobold as ordered .. and try and hand him over do you need another hide check ? .. and what if the fellow kobold you are handing over dobs you in does he then get a reward ??
Sieylianna 08-08-07, 10:11 PM	Yes, there is. The Circle has rules that Kobold PCs are legal in LG. You have no more right to deny a player the right to play a Kobold than you do to play a human. Or do you think you are above the Circle, and personally know better than they what is best for LG? Are you talking about the Circle whose deity document has been coming in a few days for several years? Or perhaps the one who released a single high level event over a year late and hasn't provided any further support? And we're still waiting for the consolidated centaur rulings. I'm not saying that people can't play kobolds. I'm just lobbying in the regions where I play frequently for significant restrictions on kobolds. Releasing cards to play an evil race on the scale of this mailing was idiotic. Some triads obviously recognize this fact and are trying to maintain Greyhawk canon as well as they can despite this mistake. Other triads are sitting around sucking their thumbs. Ed
Arvagor 08-08-07, 10:26 PM	... deleted ...
solbergb 08-08-07, 10:46 PM	The Nyrond law leaves a lot of "outs". Be Good, be good at certain skills, and if you are killed your party gets the body. Hell in the Pale if you get convicted of Heresy you are burned at the stake and your ashes scattered to the winds - no raise dead there. What outs? If I use spells or fight in a city, I'm arrested. I can hang with the party I guess, but if I contribute, I get hosed. In the Pale, you can be the most virulent Pholtus hater in existance, or even a Dimre Pholtan Heretic and as long as you don't stand on a streetcorner and advocate for your heresy, nobody will bother you. There are exactly zero Pale modules that REQUIRE you to do heretical things to contribute to the party. There are a very large number of Nyrond modules that require you to participate in combat in urban areas. Indeed many start and end in urban areas. Coasting along being carried by the party, afraid to act until I get the magic 3 "special AR's" is just stupid. Yes, I play in Nyrond too. It's the only region I can drive to in less than a day. It wouldn't bug me so much if they had similar restrictions on other PC races that have traditionally been bad guys/at war with Nyrond. Like, say, wood elves. Or halforcs. Or gnomes. Or Suel that don't have Duchy of Urnst credentials. Or even Pale Pholtans. I'm with Cedric on the thought that Nyrond isn't nearly as bad as Yeomanry, because Nyrond: #1 - has difficulty DC's based on rules and doesn't violate the rules (you can presumably take 10 on the diplomacy checks, etc when in calm situations like trying to get in the gate) #2 - kinda sorta has a path to getting out of hell, assuming you're willing to be carried by the party until then. Although it isn't "play 3 nyrond mods, succeed and be treated ok" it is "if you get the three special certs, you'll be ok" and who knows how that will be adjudicated. #3 - doesn't rely on PVP to enforce it. If your party is willing to carry the useless kobold through the city parts of the adventure, they aren't required to arrest them if they notice that they're a kobold later on.
garyjohnson 08-08-07, 10:49 PM	But as I said, I got tired of such discussions and hence lost interest in determining what happens in Perrenland or Ratik with Respect to Kobolds. Hopefully it will work out. I haven't seen any discussion on the Perrenland list at all about Kobold PCs - I figure it's going to be like what happened when the centaurs were introduced as a PC race. That is, it doesn't matter what race you are, it's whether or not you are law-abiding that matters to Perrenders. So long as you're not a Roodberg, of course - if you belong to the "Oeridian clan everyone else loves to hate", you deserve what's coming to you. ;) Cheers, Gary Johnson
GreatSiron 08-08-07, 11:27 PM	This came from the Yeomanry Board from our POC: We are coming with some terrific ideas after all of our brainstorming on this decision and have decided to do something real with it. We are not just issuing out of character rulings like many regions are. We are looking at truly working through this process in an in-character fashion. What I take this to mean is that I should have paid more attention to the scrawling on the baseboard of the inn. (Looks like our region may have gotten a Mist Kobold as an NPC). It looks like our Triad may have plans to turn this Kobold card into a regional story line, which would be awesome.
garyjohnson 08-08-07, 11:32 PM	Releasing cards to play an evil race on the scale of this mailing was idiotic. Some triads obviously recognize this fact and are trying to maintain Greyhawk canon as well as they can despite this mistake. Other triads are sitting around sucking their thumbs. Is it really necessary to characterise those regions that are happy to accommodate "visitors from a distant kobold kingdom" as "ignoring Greyhawk canon"? After all, "Greyhawk canon" varies from person to person - for example, does it include the development work carried out by a region in LG? Does it include asherati in the Bright Sands? Personally, I feel it's best if a region doesn't need new rulings specifically to accommodate a new PC race. IMO, a well-written region should have clearly articulated generic principles about how people from that region would interact with travellers from distant kingdoms, creatures from uncommon races, and so on. That way, when a specific nonstandard game element (race, class, feat, whatever) for the region turns up at a table, the DM and other local players can improvise their reactions to that nonstandard thing, without having to seek direction from the Triad. The highly detailed top-down management by some Triads of a new campaign-wide game element feels to me like micro-management - naturally, YMMV. I also tend to agree with KarmaInferno on how this situation should be approached by Triads. Some of the Triads seem to be focussing on "people in our region don't like the local kobolds, so they don't like any kobolds, regardless of who they are or what they do", and not on "people in our region don't like the local kobolds, but these foreign kobolds are different to the locals, so let's explain how people treat them differently". I prefer the latter approach, because it enables wider use of the new rules item (the kobold race); other people seem to prefer the former approach, even though it discourages wider use of the new rules item. Again, YMMV. Cheers, Gary Johnson
clannagh 08-09-07, 12:21 AM	I haven't seen any discussion on the Perrenland list at all about Kobold PCs - I figure it's going to be like what happened when the centaurs were introduced as a PC race. That is, it doesn't matter what race you are, it's whether or not you are law-abiding that matters to Perrenders. So long as you're not a Roodberg, of course - if you belong to the "Oeridian clan everyone else loves to hate", you deserve what's coming to you. ;) Cheers, Gary Johnson Well they arent allowed to worship Joramy ... so provided the said Kobold doesnt turn Heretic, insult Nerull or openly support Iuz I suspect they may be fine in Perrenland especially if they join the Pax.
CdrcJsn 08-09-07, 01:23 AM	What outs? If I use spells or fight in a city, I'm arrested. I can hang with the party I guess, but if I contribute, I get hosed. If you notice, the prohibition in cities is specifically against using spells or weapons... That leaves: Monks. Animal Companions. Items that buff the party. Divine Feats like Sacred Healing. All those "useless" 1d6/spell slot Reserve Feats. Bard Song. Dragon Heritage Breath Weapon. Celestial Lance light thingie. Infernal Howl. At low levels, ordering a riding dog around is probably enough to contribute significantly to combat. By the time you reach APL6-8, it's next year and attitudes might've changed by then. A kobold rogue with Improved Unarmed Strike can pretty much function the same in cities as out. Even has diplomacy as a class skill.
haferka 08-09-07, 01:24 AM	I think the circle should institute a "Wanted" Score system.. just like the "Wanted by the Church of Iuz" in the BK.. This would track the characters reputation across the all the regions of Living Greyhawk. Traditional "Monster" races would have an imediate penalty to the system simply by virtue of their race.. but threw hard work they could improve that reputation to negate the "stereotype" of their "Monster" race. Having a Possitive Reputation would represent Lawful/Good behavior.. where as having a negative Reputation would represent the opposite.. Also, individual regions could provide additional modifiers to the system, which ONLY apply to character while they are in the region.
just_be_glad_now 08-09-07, 01:36 AM	I do not think anyone disagrees as to the hassle inadvertantly created. We already know from Chris's post that they hadn't intended to put these in until next reward period. That said, I think it is important for everyone to remember what the ultimate goal of these cards are: To add to roleplaying, not detract from it. To me, booting people from a mod or killing them based on the result of a die roll doesn't add much to roleplaying. I commend the regions that are willing to consider creating a storyline around giving safe status to kobolds (although the immediate problem with that plan is it effectively limits each player to the one kobold who played the story arc, and if that kobold dies the player is stuck). I think perhaps the most important thing to remember is that there should be variation, perhaps large variation in how kobolds are viewed initially; for most purposes, that would mean that kobolds would be viewed somewhere in the range from indifferent to hostile, differing depending on the NPC. In general, I would expect that people with little experience with kobolds would express concern but not immediate hostility; people don't usually work that way. They may have preconceived notions, but people generally don't put out the effort to harass other people. To me, this seems like a situation with enough parallels in real life (sadly) to draw some insights. Sticking only to obsolete examples, we can consider the following: African-Americans in the South, first half of 1900s vs. Jewish population in Nazi Germany, 1930s-early 1940s In one case, we have long-term prejudices of a group as having certain negative traits, but aside from a few extreme cases the ones who made a conscious effort to follow the rules, help others etc could certainly survive and potentially even earn respect, perhaps grudgingly. In the other, we had an artificially inspired mob mentality that caused a whole population to become unnaturally agressive toward the group. My point is that the second case took some rather unique circumstances to occur, and were circumstances humanity would rather forget anyway. The first set of attitudes seems much more likely and has been repeated throughout history. So I ask, why do we need such a problematic set of rules as some regions have provided if they are not consciously roleplaying such an unusual and horrific circumstance? Why do we have arrests and executions of non-evil creatures without crimes committed? As discussed above, it amounts to distorting the roleplaying for most of these regions. What in character sense does it make to have a Lawful Good society banishing what they now know to be Good aligned people from its lands merely because of the color/scaly nature of their skin, as a matter of course? How is that intrinsically roleplaying the society any better than anything else? Brayden Glad PS: I think I'll take the last portion of Zanzibax's quote for a sig. Zanzibax wrote, I find kobolds annoying. I find the sudden and arbitrary introduction of a traditionally evil race as a PC optional race to be ill-conceived. This wasn't well-thought out, and it isn't justifiable. That said, there are many people who want to play a kobold. I find it easy to believe that so many D&D gamers have no other way to get a little tail.
CdrcJsn 08-09-07, 01:39 AM	Releasing cards to play an evil race on the scale of this mailing was idiotic. Some triads obviously recognize this fact and are trying to maintain Greyhawk canon as well as they can despite this mistake. Other triads are sitting around sucking their thumbs. Ed These Kobolds aren't evil. Mist Kingdom kobolds are a new race being introduced into the campaign. Some people are treating them as such. Others are having a knee jerk reaction of "bah! kobolds! I hate kobolds!" With so many people wanting to play Kobolds, obviously it's not the idiotic mistake you're trying to make it out to be.
David Argall 08-09-07, 04:00 AM	If you notice, the prohibition in cities is specifically against using spells or weapons... That leaves: Monks. Animal Companions. Items that buff the party. Divine Feats like Sacred Healing. All those "useless" 1d6/spell slot Reserve Feats. Bard Song. Dragon Heritage Breath Weapon. Celestial Lance light thingie. Infernal Howl. At low levels, ordering a riding dog around is probably enough to contribute significantly to combat. By the time you reach APL6-8, it's next year and attitudes might've changed by then. A kobold rogue with Improved Unarmed Strike can pretty much function the same in cities as out. Even has diplomacy as a class skill. In other words, you can be hopelessly wimpy at low level, and then you might arise to merely inferior at higher levels. Effectively it still amounts to banning kobolds from Nyrond modules.
CdrcJsn 08-09-07, 04:16 AM	In other words, you can be hopelessly wimpy at low level, and then you might arise to merely inferior at higher levels. Effectively it still amounts to banning kobolds from Nyrond modules. And in the time between my previous post and yours, the Nyrond triad updated their ruling. It's now light weapons and spells in self defense are allowed if you pass the diplomacy check. *shrug* I was sorta looking forward to trying to be wimpy but effective.
_metz_ 08-09-07, 07:24 AM	And in the time between my previous post and yours, the Nyrond triad updated their ruling. It's now light weapons and spells in self defense are allowed if you pass the diplomacy check. *shrug* I was sorta looking forward to trying to be wimpy but effective. Just because you may want to play your Kobold that way doesn't mean everyone should be forced to play that way. Otherwise lets all play the same builds with the same attitudes and backstories, and just turn up and roll dice to see if we win the mod.
Arvagor 08-09-07, 07:29 AM	Just because you may want to play it doesn't mean everyone should be forced to.But how are you being forced to play a kobold? Or any other undesirable race, for that matter?
TimRat 08-09-07, 08:03 AM	Of course no one is being forced to play a kobold. they can choose to play one if they want to and have fun with it which is the ideal goal. like the above poster said these kobolds are not EVIL thus this thing about canon is just ridiculous. kobolds are pretty much everywhere but in some areas they are not as welcomed which is fine. we knew this and realized that some regions would not be as conducive to seeing kobold PCs but as long as the player's realize there may be a bit of hostility to their kobold then its ok. i would like to think that since these kobolds are a goodly race over time they can show their region that they fight on their side and gain their trust - a bit of roleplaying on the player's part to show their support of the area. there are always two sides of the fence on this one where a region may despise them i'm sure there is going to be some noble or opportunist who sees the kobolds as a means to an end in that area and helps them out gaining quite possibly a powerful ally.
Harliquinn 08-09-07, 08:09 AM	If you notice, the prohibition in cities is specifically against using spells or weapons... That leaves: Monks. Animal Companions. Items that buff the party. Divine Feats like Sacred Healing. All those "useless" 1d6/spell slot Reserve Feats. Bard Song. Dragon Heritage Breath Weapon. Celestial Lance light thingie. Infernal Howl. At low levels, ordering a riding dog around is probably enough to contribute significantly to combat. By the time you reach APL6-8, it's next year and attitudes might've changed by then. A kobold rogue with Improved Unarmed Strike can pretty much function the same in cities as out. Even has diplomacy as a class skill. I would guess (not cannot verify) that abilities like Reserver Feats, Breath Weapons, Lances, Howls, Unarmed Strikes, and Animal Companions all constitute either a 'weapon' or a 'spell' to the local populace. Harliquinn
Harliquinn 08-09-07, 08:13 AM	And in the time between my previous post and yours, the Nyrond triad updated their ruling. It's now light weapons and spells in self defense are allowed if you pass the diplomacy check. *shrug* I was sorta looking forward to trying to be wimpy but effective. Well light weapons for a kobold are still pretty 'wimpy' and spells in self defense still should require some forethought. I doubt the local populace would consider something like fireball a 'self defense' mechanism, whereas grease, color spray, etc. would fall within that category. You should still be able to play a wimpy but effective character (fearful for his actions).
_metz_ 08-09-07, 08:22 AM	But how are you being forced to play a kobold? Or any other undesirable race, for that matter? I was referring to his statement on how he wants to play his kobold. My grammar was a bit off, my bad, its fixed now.
CrystalBlue 08-09-07, 09:40 AM	As Kermit the Frog once said, "It's not easy being green..." First off, I'm going to defend my stance that a player can play whatever they want. I hate halflings. I think halflings are small, evil kleptomaniacs with too much sugar and caffine. They're annoying and I don't like playing with one. That's in character AND out of character. Does that mean I think LG should bane halflings? No. They're a playable race by the LGCS and I'm going to defend anyone's right to play it, no matter how much I hate it. Sieylianna...you need to seriously change your additude or keep your mouth shut. You have no where near the right to tell us what is fun or not. You don't like kobolds? Tough cookies. You play in LG, you live by their rules. You can debate it till your blue in the face, you can stand on a street corner and preach the evils and heresy of the kobold race. But you DO NOT have the right to tell us what is and isn't playable. You DO NOT get to tell us that kobolds should never be played at all. And you shouldn't be putting down the regions that 'allow' kobolds in. With that out of the way, one should expect things to be tough for a kobold. Kill on sight? Sure. But that shouldn't mean the mod's over for them. There should have better ways to deal with this then just out-right killing or stripping a kobold. That's just not fun or fair.
nony2klerch 08-09-07, 10:53 AM	Are you talking about the Circle whose deity document has been coming in a few days for several years? Or perhaps the one who released a single high level event over a year late and hasn't provided any further support? And we're still waiting for the consolidated centaur rulings. I'm not saying that people can't play kobolds. I'm just lobbying in the regions where I play frequently for significant restrictions on kobolds. Releasing cards to play an evil race on the scale of this mailing was idiotic. Some triads obviously recognize this fact and are trying to maintain Greyhawk canon as well as they can despite this mistake. Other triads are sitting around sucking their thumbs. Ed Does that mean we can solicit you for a high level module to be played at WiV? :allalone:
Zanzibax 08-09-07, 11:40 AM	There should have better ways to deal with this then just out-right killing or stripping a kobold. That's just not fun or fair. Sign seen in the slums of any city in the Flanaess: XXX KOBOLDS KOBOLDS KOBOLDS! SEE THEM LIVE! SEE THEM STRIPPED! I think these new kobold cards are the only way some D&D Gamers are ever going to get a little tail.
rutrow424 08-09-07, 12:32 PM	I feel like I am missing something here. The card comes right out and says "you must be cautious, as kobolds are killed on sight in many places". The card doesn't say it will be a walk in the park. It says it will be an extreme challenge. The very fact you have the card means you are not a new Greyhawk player, and should expect it to be difficult. The Nyrond law leaves a lot of "outs". Be Good, be good at certain skills, and if you are killed your party gets the body. Hell in the Pale if you get convicted of Heresy you are burned at the stake and your ashes scattered to the winds - no raise dead there. It comes down to that you don't have a "right" to be a Kobold. Just like you don't have the right be play a particular non-open PrC. We need the scarcity enforced to make those extras special. You got the card free, as a bonus; you don't have to play it; and if you do play it expect to be killed. If you do play it as it was intended to be - a challenge. If you want to make it less of a challenge you can always just play Cores. I could not agree with this more. Hear! Hear!
mlund 08-09-07, 12:43 PM	And in the time between my previous post and yours, the Nyrond triad updated their ruling. It's now light weapons and spells in self defense are allowed if you pass the diplomacy check. The correction / clarification to the Nyrond document was huge - not in volume, but in meaning. The ability defend yourself and the right to carry light weapons vs. no casting, fighting, or weapons is the difference between night and day. On top of that, Tom was kind enough to explicitly outline grounds for taking 10 on diplomacy and having other player's assist. Considering how easy it could be to interpret diplomacy vs. a "hostile" armed guard as "rushed" or at least "stressed" I think this clarification needed to be made explicit. Also, the fact that many modules start PCs off in an urban setting (like the Inn) before character introductions left the door wide open to logically concluding that none of the other PCs were with the Kobold at the gate to assist in the first place. Both of these clarifications are very significant and I'm gratified that the Nyrond Triad made them. Good show. - Marty Lund
Redfist 08-09-07, 12:53 PM	Not being able to take 10 was never stated by the Nyrond triad and thus shouldn't have been assumed. Also, I don't get why anyone would assume that the diplomacy with the guard would be rushed when not in combat. *shrug* If those faulty assumptions were made, I can see why some players would have a more negative view. I guess it's a good thing to have the triad be extra explicit even if simply restating core rules.
rutrow424 08-09-07, 01:00 PM	Personally, I feel it's best if a region doesn't need new rulings specifically to accommodate a new PC race. IMO, a well-written region should have clearly articulated generic principles about how people from that region would interact with travellers from distant kingdoms, creatures from uncommon races, and so on. That way, when a specific nonstandard game element (race, class, feat, whatever) for the region turns up at a table, the DM and other local players can improvise their reactions to that nonstandard thing, without having to seek direction from the Triad. The highly detailed top-down management by some Triads of a new campaign-wide game element feels to me like micro-management - naturally, YMMV. I also tend to agree with KarmaInferno on how this situation should be approached by Triads. Some of the Triads seem to be focussing on "people in our region don't like the local kobolds, so they don't like any kobolds, regardless of who they are or what they do", and not on "people in our region don't like the local kobolds, but these foreign kobolds are different to the locals, so let's explain how people treat them differently". I prefer the latter approach, because it enables wider use of the new rules item (the kobold race); other people seem to prefer the former approach, even though it discourages wider use of the new rules item. Again, YMMV. This comes across to me as an extremely idealistic or naive worldview, particularly for GH/LG. As it relates to kobolds, you are discussing a predominantly evil race with a GH and LG history of being in conflict with the existing PC races and cultures. The PTB have added a new non-evil offshoot of that race from a far off corner of Oerth that few peoples of any races would have any reason or ability to distinguish from the original race. Realistically, these Mist Kobolds will take a long time to earn different treatment than the "normal" kobolds. The same would be true if they created Mist Orcs, or Mist Goblins, or Mist Gnolls instead. This isn't like adding Asherati or Centaurs for BS - evil versions of these were not prevalent in the campaign world. Half-orcs were originally going to have a lot of RP issues until that was softened over time. The fact that KoS is not on the table is an improvement over what would be expected in many of the regions where evil kobolds abound. Complaining that a region is punitive towards kobolds is fine I guess, but when the card itself warns kobolds are often killed on sight I would tend to be thankful I have a slim chance to walk out of some places, let alone be eventually accepted. Asking/requiring PCs to turn kobold PCs over is probably a bad idea (however realistic) due to PvP issues, but you can still RP the disgust/distrust angle until "proven" wrong. I do this all the time with my dwarf vis-a-vis elves. I applaud the PTB for creating this option - it shows they are responsive to the loud calls for it on these and other lists. I may or may not play one, but I love having the option - especially if I know it may be difficult to RP. The cool rules options may not be worth it mechanically, but I'll have fun trying! Cuthbert help us if a drow card or something like it ever pops up...
Redfist 08-09-07, 01:05 PM	Cuthbert help us if a drow card or something like it ever pops up... I can see the hordes of Drizzt build wanna-bes now. Swarms of TWF drow fighter/ranger types befriending dwarven leaders and human barbarians then hooking up with said barbarian's mate. "But I'm a good drow! I swear!" I don't doubt it'll happen some day, but I sure hope it doesn't.
mlund 08-09-07, 01:10 PM	Not being able to take 10 was never stated by the Nyrond triad and thus shouldn't have been assumed. "Taking 10: When your character is not being threatened or distracted, you may choose to take 10." Any armed guard whose job often entails killing humanoid monsters and starts with an attitude of "hostile," at the gate of a city wherein all NPCs coming and going are also ruled "hostile" could very reasonably be interpreted as a situation where the Kobold is "threatened or distracted," in my opinion. While I don't think that would be fun, I wouldn't accuse a judge doing so as breaking, bending, or manipulating any rules. Also, I don't get why anyone would assume that the diplomacy with the guard would be rushed when not in combat. "Changing others’ attitudes with Diplomacy generally takes at least 1 full minute (10 consecutive full-round actions). In some situations, this time requirement may greatly increase. A rushed Diplomacy check can be made as a full-round action, but you take a –10 penalty on the check." Again, if a judge felt it appropriate to impose the Rushed Diplomacy penalty on a Kobold player to avoid being immediately hauled off in chains the player would be left with little recourse, IMO. The Document didn't speak to the matter, while the PHB entries on Diplomacy and "Hostile" could easily (and reasonably, IMO) be interpreted to force a rushed check. Again, not necessarily "fun," but certainly within the bounds of the rules. The clarification puts all that worry to bed in a neat fashion, and I appreciate that greatly. - Marty Lund
Redfist 08-09-07, 01:17 PM	With that logic, you could rule that Diplomacy could never "take 10" since you are presenting an opposing view and thus are having discourse about a threat to someone else's viewpoint. Odd. The triad also never said that the guards enter initiative and thus talk of "full round actions" is moot. The section on diplomacy never once states that you must do a rushed check if the initial reaction is hostile. Regardless, it seems to be needed that the triad lists it explicitly. They have done so. All good.
CdrcJsn 08-09-07, 01:23 PM	I was referring to his statement on how he wants to play his kobold. My grammar was a bit off, my bad, its fixed now. By wimpy but effective, I didn't mean behavior. I have a history of taking perceived suboptimal classes or builds and making them effective. I was just trying to come up with ways to be creative and still be effective with the more restrictive Nyrond rule in place. Now I don't have to.
mlund 08-09-07, 01:25 PM	I agree. All good. If we want to hash out the mechanical stuff, we can do it in PM. Thanks for being patient with me. - Marty Lund
GreatSiron 08-09-07, 01:35 PM	Well, from what I just read from the Yeomanry boards, this whole discussion is now moot. The Circle has taken over the matter and is going to issue a standardized ruling on Kobolds that ALL regions have to adhere to. I for one like Kobolds, but does anyone else get a feeling of impending disaster?
CrystalBlue 08-09-07, 01:41 PM	Detect Impending Doom...I don't have that spell yet. Though I could try a Spot check to see... GREAT GOOGLY MOOGLY! There's a huge scroll falling from the sky! It...it reads...KOBOLD RULING! It shall blanket the entire Oerth! FLEE! FLEE!!! *runs away*
mlund 08-09-07, 01:42 PM	Well, from what I just read from the Yeomanry boards, this whole discussion is now moot. The Circle has taken over the matter and is going to issue a standardized ruling on Kobolds that ALL regions have to adhere to. I for one like Kobolds, but does anyone else get a feeling of impending disaster? Maybe yes. Maybe no. Wizards / the Circle introduced the Kobold cards into the various Regions. Having them carry at least some of the work-load they just spun out of thin air for the Triads might go over well with all parties involved. Since RPGA is one giant marketing exercise, campaign cards included, it is sort of in the company's best interests to make sure a "cool thing" doesn't become a negative factor. I mean, if a player doesn't like the Kobold card you can tell him, "don't play a Kobold," and still get a lot out of the campaign card promotion. If your Triads all suddenly have to issue new rules and deal with the blow-back your solution isn't so simple and your cost-benefit doesn't look nearly as rosy. - Marty Lund
Redfist 08-09-07, 01:43 PM	I sincerely hope whatever ruling the circle comes down with allows regional flavor to be preserved. Part of what makes LG great is the fact that regions have their own flavor. Nyrond != Bandit Kingdoms != The Pale etc. All very different and thus individually special.
CrystalBlue 08-09-07, 01:45 PM	All joking aside, I think a level playing field for Kobolds would be good. Though, there should be regional flavor. Like, guidelines for what a Triad can and can't do about Kobolds. Say...no punishment greater then 10 TUs...guidelines for when a guard can KoS a Kobold, various guides on when and where a kobold will be allowed to be. Meh...I live in Highfolk...I'm sure my Kobold will be enitrely safe there... *blinks* Why are you all laughing at me?
GreatSiron 08-09-07, 03:46 PM	All joking aside, I think a level playing field for Kobolds would be good. Though, there should be regional flavor. Like, guidelines for what a Triad can and can't do about Kobolds. Say...no punishment greater then 10 TUs...guidelines for when a guard can KoS a Kobold, various guides on when and where a kobold will be allowed to be. Meh...I live in Highfolk...I'm sure my Kobold will be enitrely safe there... *blinks* Why are you all laughing at me? I can only hope that this is the case, but it worries me still. I wanted some of the penatlies to be lessened, but the Circle making a blanket ruling on the matter could be disastious to the morale of Triads, who had worked hard to compensate for the inclusion of Kobolds as PC's.
Arvagor 08-09-07, 03:56 PM	I can only hope that this is the case, but it worries me still. I wanted some of the penatlies to be lessened, but the Circle making a blanket ruling on the matter could be disastious to the morale of Triads, who had worked hard to compensate for the inclusion of Kobolds as PC's.Nah... Not all of us are as overly possessive of our regions as others -- some of us want our players to have fun ;)
Mithreinmaethor 08-09-07, 05:05 PM	I am glad that the Circle has stepped back to take another look at this. This will set precedence, but hopefully good and not bad precedence. A blanket set of rules on how to deal with the Mist Kobold's could hurt the flavor of the Regions. Just to throw some ideas out (not that they will be popular) 1 - Limit the mailing of the Kobold card to just this mailing 2 - Delay the usage of the Kobold card until the CY 599 & CY 600 core plot arc #1 kind of restricts them to a lucky few that either received or traded for the card. Kind of like how the Centaur was not open to everyone. #2 allows for a 2 year story arc to ingratiate the Kobolds into the lore of LG. This way the Triads can then modify their stances on how to deal with these newly found allies of good. This also gives the Circle and the Triad another year and a half to draft out how they want the Kobolds to be dealt with before / during and after the Story arc would conclude. Just ideas
TimRat 08-09-07, 05:17 PM	lol no there will never be drow PCs in LG. as far as the blanket ruling of kobolds i wouldn't worry to much about it.
WizO_Mimir 08-09-07, 05:29 PM	Glad to see people are back to civil debate for the most part; let's make sure to keep things from being personal. There is no need to direct a post at a specific patron if you disagree -- just address the topic at hand. Thanks!
Sieylianna 08-09-07, 05:31 PM	Nevermind
Sieylianna 08-09-07, 05:40 PM	Nevermind
Eric Anondson 08-09-07, 05:52 PM	I am glad that the Circle has stepped back to take another look at this. This will set precedence, but hopefully good and not bad precedence. A blanket set of rules on how to deal with the Mist Kobold's could hurt the flavor of the Regions.Whatever is done needs to be looking ahead further that just kobolds, it also needs to be incorporate things that have been done in the past which were very narrow in release. IMO, it needs to take consideration of things that are also out there now like norker cohorts (they're an evil race), or displacer beast (they're an evil creature) cohorts/animal companions.
Arvagor 08-09-07, 06:22 PM	If you fail to see the connection, then I can't help you. Already the whining of some people has prompted the Circle to FORBID The Triads from Determining the Reaction of their Region to Kobolds.I'm sorry, but this is simply wrong...
Mithreinmaethor 08-09-07, 06:25 PM	Whatever is done needs to be looking ahead further that just kobolds, it also needs to be incorporate things that have been done in the past which were very narrow in release. IMO, it needs to take consideration of things that are also out there now like norker cohorts (they're an evil race), or displacer beast (they're an evil creature) cohorts/animal companions. I would agree with that. I have not run across any of these things or I would have an opinion on them. But there may be regions where such creatures have been ingratiated into their lore in a non-evil capacity. Doesn't mean that once you venture outside of your region that the cohort/companion would not get treated rather gruffly. But thats why regions should be allowed to determine how they will react to such things. Just because a play option is open doesn't mean it has to be available everywhere. Look at the PRC's that are open in 1 region but not in another. The Kobold card shouldn't be treated any differently. I know people will say well they issued us to card to use etc. How many cards do you have that you cant use because its not accepted in LG ? I still stick with my ideas above as a way to do it logically.
Zanzibax 08-09-07, 07:31 PM	This comes across to me as an extremely idealistic or naive worldview, particularly for GH/LG. The fact that KoS is not on the table is an improvement over what would be expected in many of the regions where evil kobolds abound. Complaining that a region is punitive towards kobolds is fine I guess, but when the card itself warns kobolds are often killed on sight I would tend to be thankful I have a slim chance to walk out of some places, let alone be eventually accepted. Asking/requiring PCs to turn kobold PCs over is probably a bad idea (however realistic) due to PvP issues, but you can still RP the disgust/distrust angle until "proven" wrong. I do this all the time with my dwarf vis-a-vis elves. I applaud the PTB for creating this option - it shows they are responsive to the loud calls for it on these and other lists. I may or may not play one, but I love having the option - especially if I know it may be difficult to RP. The cool rules options may not be worth it mechanically, but I'll have fun trying! Cuthbert help us if a drow card or something like it ever pops up... First...force acceptance of the kobolds. Second...new campaign arc where kobolds are accepted who destroy the communities that accept them. "But we're some of the *good* kobolds you've been hearing about. Not a bad or evil bone in our bodies!"
solbergb 08-09-07, 08:23 PM	If you notice, the prohibition in cities is specifically against using spells or weapons... That leaves: Monks. Animal Companions. Items that buff the party. Divine Feats like Sacred Healing. All those "useless" 1d6/spell slot Reserve Feats. Bard Song. Dragon Heritage Breath Weapon. Celestial Lance light thingie. Infernal Howl. I'm not entirely convinced that the kobold-hating commoners can distinguish between a lightning bolt and the similar reserve feat and a breath weapon. If the weapon restrictions from past in Nyrond Cities are any guide to how this will be adjudicated, anything not on the list that is similar to what is on the list will be grounds for being arrested and beat-up. At low levels, ordering a riding dog around is probably enough to contribute significantly to combat. By the time you reach APL6-8, it's next year and attitudes might've changed by then. A kobold rogue with Improved Unarmed Strike can pretty much function the same in cities as out. Even has diplomacy as a class skill. The riding dog is a good idea. Any kobold could buy a riding dog, at least after the first AR. I've never seen a size small non-monk with improved unarmed strike so I'll leave that one alone. It's in the same category as "but it's possible to get a +16 disguise check, so any Kobold character can just do that".
solbergb 08-09-07, 08:29 PM	The correction / clarification to the Nyrond document was huge - not in volume, but in meaning. The ability defend yourself and the right to carry light weapons vs. no casting, fighting, or weapons is the difference between night and day. On top of that, Tom was kind enough to explicitly outline grounds for taking 10 on diplomacy and having other player's assist. - Marty Lund Yeah. I'm actually ok with the Nyrond ruling now. Maybe that's more what they meant all along and just clarified it when the storm hit. Or maybe they listened to the unhappy people. Either way, I'd say Nyrond now goes on the list of "kobold-ok" regions. Not "kobold-friendly" but you won't be arbitrarily arrested for doing things the modules expect you to be able to do.
Eric Anondson 08-09-07, 08:40 PM	Either way, I'd say Nyrond now goes on the list of "kobold-ok" regions.After all is said and done, I honestly don't think there will be any harsh-to-kobold regions. Despite the kobold card warning kobold characters to expect life threatening treatment, it won't happen in any region. Just a prediction. Then again, some people think a one time 4 TU loss is harsh and uncalled for. :bored:
Madfox11 08-10-07, 04:27 AM	Whatever is done needs to be looking ahead further that just kobolds, it also needs to be incorporate things that have been done in the past which were very narrow in release. IMO, it needs to take consideration of things that are also out there now like norker cohorts (they're an evil race), or displacer beast (they're an evil creature) cohorts/animal companions. We will take it further than kobolds ;) Pieter Sleijpen RPGA LG Circle Member The Splintered Suns
garyjohnson 08-10-07, 06:41 AM	This comes across to me as an extremely idealistic or naive worldview, particularly for GH/LG. As it relates to kobolds, you are discussing a predominantly evil race with a GH and LG history of being in conflict with the existing PC races and cultures. Like the Suel? :) The PTB have added a new non-evil offshoot of that race from a far off corner of Oerth that few peoples of any races would have any reason or ability to distinguish from the original race. Aside from the way they act like civilised travellers, and not like robbers/invaders? Realistically, these Mist Kobolds will take a long time to earn different treatment than the "normal" kobolds. I think that depends on how much the region discriminates against people based on their species - the Kobold card has made it clear that some regions do so more than others. <<remainder snipped - sounds like we're mostly in agreement>> Cheers, Gary Johnson
KShaver 08-10-07, 08:35 AM	Then again, some people think a one time 4 TU loss is harsh and uncalled for. :bored: I said that, and stand by it. While the loss of 4 TUs might be an insignificant punishment, I still see it as uncalled for. Anything forced onto the PC to be able to participate in a normal game is too much (I assume a PC sould skip this, but then wouldn't be allowed into most cities and might suffer other consequences).
Fakegoatee 08-10-07, 10:28 AM	We'll just have to wait and see what the Circle decides, but I did notice that the Greyhawk Ruins sourcebook has a provision for posting bail if you are arrested. If a PC and her companions can post an amount of gold that depends on the APL, the PC can avoid incarceration until AFTER the adventure. I'd bet a nickel that a similar provision is part of the new policy. Kobolds caught in hostile areas will have face a TU penalty (perhaps avoidable with a large fine), and they aren't eliminated from the mod unless they can't post bail. For perspective: The "Arrested!" AR item for Greyhawk adventures is a penalty of something like 26 TUs or gold equivalent to half the cap for the APL you're playing.
rutrow424 08-10-07, 11:57 AM	Aside from the way they act like civilised travellers, and not like robbers/invaders? That's where the long time to acceptance part comes it - most common folk that see something they recognize as a kobold or an unidentified "monstrous" humanoid are not going to take the time to get to know that individual creature to determine if it is just a civilized traveller and not an invader. Diplomacy may help, but I don't know how many would listen/believe, especially if there is an anti-kobold sentiment already in existence.
Eric Anondson 08-10-07, 12:38 PM	Anything forced onto the PC to be able to participate in a normal game is too much (I assume a PC sould skip this, but then wouldn't be allowed into most cities and might suffer other consequences).It was unavoidable because it was felt that with the Inquisition in place we needed something that was already resolved before the PC sat down at the table. All the clever/clumsy mechanics for disguising, hiding, bluffing, bribing, your way around, in every single adventure just slow the game to a crawl before the game even starts for everyone else who isn't a kobold while they watch the kobold resolve the trickery. Throw this at a Convention where mustering takes time, and often tables are swapped around just as everything is starting, where the slots are often just barely squeezed in to the designated time, and suddenly someone brings their kobold character and now the judge gets to deal with all that fun of resolving how the PC avoids inquisitors and every other NPC who could cause trouble. The idea was to just short cut that whole bloody time suck, say it already happened "off screen" so that the gaming could go on.
mlund 08-10-07, 01:09 PM	After all is said and done, I honestly don't think there will be any harsh-to-kobold regions. Despite the kobold card warning kobold characters to expect life threatening treatment, it won't happen in any region. Just a prediction. Well, it will if you screw up. I'd expect any kobold that botches a Sleight of Hand check to "generate revenue" after a module to probably be executed whereas a human (even a pureblood Suel) will just face a little jail time. Plus any property damage / unnecessary violence that would usually warrant a fine or a short stint in jail would, again, probably result in execution for a kobold. But just functioning like a law-abiding traveler or adventurer shouldn't get you neck-arrowed in Living Greyhawk, even if you are a kobold. The idea was to just short cut that whole bloody time suck, say it already happened "off screen" so that the gaming could go on. Honestly, I'm a pretty big fan of this. I think the role-playing opportunities for anti-kobold sentiment should be there when appropriate, but getting a lot of the "initial processing" out of the way before game is priceless, IMO. - Marty Lund
solbergb 08-10-07, 01:26 PM	I said that, and stand by it. While the loss of 4 TUs might be an insignificant punishment, I still see it as uncalled for. Anything forced onto the PC to be able to participate in a normal game is too much (I assume a PC sould skip this, but then wouldn't be allowed into most cities and might suffer other consequences). Yeah, even in the Pale, most New Dawn time is served after the crisis is over. Most sentences boil down to 1-4 TU's if the PC's buddies vouch for his good intentions. If the PC is unrepentant or really was just being a jerk, or attempted escape several times and was caught, there is a tendency for multiple charges to be served consecutively instead of concurrently and that can add up to real time. Refusing divination magic is considered evidence of guilt. If you're innocent, you're very safe in a Pale court. There are exceptions (if you blow up an orphanage in the first scene and get caught, well, you're out of the module. But the city guards and stuff aren't boxtext in the Pale, if you teleport away or turn into mist and go into the sewers or duck around a corner and use a +43 disguise check and say "he went thataway", you might be able to rejoin your party later). Generally PC's aren't worth sending a whole inquisition after you, with the kind of magic that could track you down in the timescale of a module. Also the adventures don't require you to do things that would get you tossed into a new dawn camp. Only player choices do that.
Howie23 08-10-07, 01:48 PM	Honestly, I'm a pretty big fan of this. I think the role-playing opportunities for anti-kobold sentiment should be there when appropriate, but getting a lot of the "initial processing" out of the way before game is priceless, IMO. [tongue in cheek] While we're at it, can we please handle the Palish bigotry toward Chaotic human clerics off screen as well? I'd really prefer to be able to play my cleric of Procan without any of this New Dawn stuff hanging over my head. Oh, and archers/polearm guys in City of Greyhawk. These are all legal character options and there should be no negative impact of playing any of them at any time. All of this should be taken care of offscreen. It would be valueless, IMNSHO. [/tongue in cheek] David
Harliquinn 08-10-07, 02:06 PM	Well I'm not sure what's going on with the Circle, etc. As one of the voices in the "kobolds should have it rough but not KoS from the start" camp, I have to say that most of the region rules were what I would expect. The only thing I personally would have a problem with is when the fate of the character hinges on a single die roll the character has to make many times in an adventure and for which a failure is almost certainly death/massive equipment loss. Spending some TU's, getting penalties on social checks, getting harsher sentences if you do something against the law, and even having to make checks along the way or get treated poorly are all very fair and fit in line with these new kobolds. Harliquinn
darrell_uk 08-10-07, 03:55 PM	We will take it further than kobolds ;) Pieter Sleijpen RPGA LG Circle Member The Splintered Suns Can we assume that this Circle discussion is why Dispel Confusion is now three days late? :)
Britt 08-10-07, 04:30 PM	Can we assume that this Circle discussion is why Dispel Confusion is now three days late? :) No, that's because I was moving out of my apartment, then living out of my car without consistent internet access, so I was late in sending it into the web guy.
RedKnightofKet 08-10-07, 05:51 PM	No, that's because I was moving out of my apartment, then living out of my car without consistent internet access, so I was late in sending it into the web guy. What is the ETA on that Dispel Confusion? I am leaving for GenCon on Tuesday, and would like to have the opportunity to peruse that info before I go....
_metz_ 08-10-07, 06:05 PM	Here is the official Ratik Ruling: Hi, Thanks for all of the discussions on how kobolds will fit into Ratik. It has been very informative and has helped us a lot. Below is our position for kobolds in Ratik. If you are running games on the weekend (particularly Winterfest - hope the con goes well guys) and encounter kobolds please use these rules. Also please feel free to provide feedback - I expect we will be revisiting these in a couple of weeks based on how they play out and on Circle input.. Kobolds are a relative rarity in Ratik, being more often found in warmer climes. The occasional poor soul can be found in the Loftwood, but even then they are rare. As a result most people of Ratik will be quite unfamiliar with kobolds and are unlikely to recognise the differences between regular kobolds and those from the Misty Isles. However, travellers tales and those of the gnomes have been heard around Ratik and there will be suspicion that any kobold is an agent of evil or something similar, this is often tempered by curiosity though. As a result kobolds will encounter a -2 reaction penalty from Ratikans. The exception is the gnomes, who have a more ingrained distrust for the race which means that kobolds receive a -4 reaction penalty when interacting with gnomes. Note that these are the general conditions encountered, specific people encountered may have more positive or negative views as detailed in scenarios. Ratik is a place that values a person's deeds as much as their origins though. If a kobold has one or more influence points with a person with influence in the current region (GM's discretion) then the penalties listed above are halved. Likewise once they reach 5th level without any "Unreliable" notations these penalties no longer apply. Meta-organisations are likewise a bit more difficult for kobolds than for others. Unless stated otherwise kobolds start with -3 affiliation points for their race. This can be permanently alleviated for all meta-organisations for that character by the spending of an influence point with a notable Ratikan NPC or group. -- Cheers, James Dempsey Ratik Triad PoC This was done after lengthy PLAYER input, and I think it worked out really well. It will of course be reviewed in a few weeks time.
Britt 08-10-07, 06:51 PM	What is the ETA on that Dispel Confusion? I am leaving for GenCon on Tuesday, and would like to have the opportunity to peruse that info before I go.... It should be up Tuesday morning, at the latest, I hope.
Hariman 08-10-07, 08:05 PM	I am glad that the Circle has stepped back to take another look at this. This will set precedence, but hopefully good and not bad precedence. A blanket set of rules on how to deal with the Mist Kobold's could hurt the flavor of the Regions. Just to throw some ideas out (not that they will be popular) 1 - Limit the mailing of the Kobold card to just this mailing 2 - Delay the usage of the Kobold card until the CY 599 & CY 600 core plot arc #1 kind of restricts them to a lucky few that either received or traded for the card. Kind of like how the Centaur was not open to everyone. #2 allows for a 2 year story arc to ingratiate the Kobolds into the lore of LG. This way the Triads can then modify their stances on how to deal with these newly found allies of good. This also gives the Circle and the Triad another year and a half to draft out how they want the Kobolds to be dealt with before / during and after the Story arc would conclude. Just ideas Number 2 will never happen. The cards are already being mailed and waiting a year and a half and dedicating an ENTIRE TWO YEAR 8 to 10 MOD STORY ARC TO ONE CAMPAIGN CARD, is too much to ask. Number one is probably going to happen. There MIGHT be a Kobold card reprint if player demand is high enough. But I'm betting that we'll see another race before that happens. (Barring a remarkable shortage of new or reprintable cards.)
solbergb 08-10-07, 08:46 PM	[tongue in cheek] While we're at it, can we please handle the Palish bigotry toward Chaotic human clerics off screen as well? I'd really prefer to be able to play my cleric of Procan without any of this New Dawn stuff hanging over my head. David actually, my favored soul of procan does just fine in the Pale. He just carries an extra wood holy symbol for if he absolutely has to cast a divine focus spell with lots of offended Pholtan NPC's nearby So far no New Dawn time. Although... Once...the Church even hired him to infiltrate a New Dawn camp and break out! on purpose! Beating up Pholtan guards without getting in trouble! Best...Adventure...Ever....
darrell_uk 08-11-07, 07:24 AM	No, that's because I was moving out of my apartment, then living out of my car without consistent internet access, so I was late in sending it into the web guy. Ouch, my apologies.
Britt 08-11-07, 11:46 AM	Ouch, my apologies. No worries, it was planned. I'm going to Gencon next week then out of the country for four months after that.
Mithreinmaethor 08-11-07, 06:03 PM	Number 2 will never happen. The cards are already being mailed and waiting a year and a half and dedicating an ENTIRE TWO YEAR 8 to 10 MOD STORY ARC TO ONE CAMPAIGN CARD, is too much to ask. Why is that too much to ask ? They are wanting to introduce such a creature into the cannon of Greyhawk. There is no better way to do it than to do it as a plot arc. Having the cards mailed out this mailing would have no bearing on them being able to make that kind of decision. Number one is probably going to happen. There MIGHT be a Kobold card reprint if player demand is high enough. But I'm betting that we'll see another race before that happens. (Barring a remarkable shortage of new or reprintable cards.) Britt has already said there wont be another race creation card for at least another year (implying it could be longer) There probably won't be another race card for a long time. We wanted to delay this one to the next set to spread out the race cards, but we didn't have another card written to put into this set. If we do another race card, it would probably be three sets away, at the least, which makes it almost a year. __________________ Britt F. Frey Living Greyhawk Circle - IUZ Metaregion
Hariman 08-11-07, 06:32 PM	Why is that too much to ask ? They are wanting to introduce such a creature into the cannon of Greyhawk. There is no better way to do it than to do it as a plot arc. Having the cards mailed out this mailing would have no bearing on them being able to make that kind of decision. Have you ever written a mod? I know a guy who did, and it took him about a year before the mod was done and ready. Writing ONE mod takes a lot of time. Writing 8 to 10 mods FOR ONE SINGLE REWARD CARD, is an excess.Centaurs and Asherati were added to the Bright Sands arc because of the desert flavor they had. But Kobolds are getting plunked in just like Snow Elves. Mysteriously and out of the blue. Although you are welcome to propose and write that mod/series of mods yourself. I'd play them if they became available in Keoland. The only reason you didn't hear about campaign continuity with Snow Elves, is because they are something as innocuous as "elves". Kobolds get more hate/resistance because they are Kobolds. (Although shiny happy kobold people, probably holding hands.) Britt has already said there wont be another race creation card for at least another year (implying it could be longer) Almost a year, a year. Not much difference there. I'm betting Raptoran, Illumian or Spellscale.
Eric Anondson 08-11-07, 06:52 PM	I'm betting Raptoran, Illumian or Spellscale.I hope none of those personally. I'd much rather something with a clearer link to the setting, like mongrelfolk. I know the aversion to races with level adjustments, but with centaur it worked because of the race levels. Skulk has a clear link to the setting and has race levels to make up for the +1 LA, skulk would be an excellent choice IMO.
Mithreinmaethor 08-11-07, 07:34 PM	Have you ever written a mod? I know a guy who did, and it took him about a year before the mod was done and ready. Writing ONE mod takes a lot of time. Writing 8 to 10 mods FOR ONE SINGLE REWARD CARD, is an excess.Centaurs and Asherati were added to the Bright Sands arc because of the desert flavor they had. But Kobolds are getting plunked in just like Snow Elves. Mysteriously and out of the blue. Although you are welcome to propose and write that mod/series of mods yourself. I'd play them if they became available in Keoland. The only reason you didn't hear about campaign continuity with Snow Elves, is because they are something as innocuous as "elves". Kobolds get more hate/resistance because they are Kobolds. (Although shiny happy kobold people, probably holding hands.) Writing a core plot arc over a 2 year time span to introduce the misty isles and the kobolds into the campaign is no different than writing any other core plot arc.
Hariman 08-11-07, 07:34 PM	I hope none of those personally. I'd much rather something with a clearer link to the setting, like mongrelfolk. I know the aversion to races with level adjustments, but with centaur it worked because of the race levels. Skulk has a clear link to the setting and has race levels to make up for the +1 LA, skulk would be an excellent choice IMO. Which book are Skulks from? And which book has Mongrelfolk? And, personally, I think that any Centaurs that live, will end up being either archers or melee beatsticks.
Arvagor 08-11-07, 07:42 PM	Which book are Skulks from? And which book has Mongrelfolk?Both are in Races of Destiny. IIRC, Mongrelfolk originally appeared way back in TSR module I1, "Dwellers of the Forbidden City". I don't recall, however, where the skulk came from... I too wouldn't mind see a mongrelfolk card down the road...
Eric Anondson 08-11-07, 07:46 PM	I don't recall, however, where the skulk came from...The skulk are a creation of the Suel Imperium along with derro.
Samwise 08-11-07, 09:10 PM	Writing a core plot arc over a 2 year time span to introduce the misty isles and the kobolds into the campaign is no different than writing any other core plot arc. But it does mean not writing another core plot arc for two years. But why stop there? How about a two year arc to explain where all these charms that make critters unlucky came from?
Hariman 08-11-07, 09:11 PM	I hope none of those personally. I'd much rather something with a clearer link to the setting, like mongrelfolk. I know the aversion to races with level adjustments, but with centaur it worked because of the race levels. Skulk has a clear link to the setting and has race levels to make up for the +1 LA, skulk would be an excellent choice IMO. Hmmm. I've heard of Illumians in some mods. But not many. But aren't the rewards cards about adding something that is out of the normal? As for Mongrelfolk and Skulks, I have two wildly different opinions on them: Mongrelfolk, on one hand, are OK. They're not perfect, but I wouldn't argue against them. I can see a MASSIVE number of 18 or 20 CON builds. BUT, I don't think that is that bad of a thing. Especially if someone is bold enough to make a Mongrelfolk Wizard, Cleric or Druid. (Especially wizard.) Skulks, on the other hand, are too much. Even with the racial levels and the level adjustment itself, they lend themselves too well to stealth builds. There would be a flood of Skulk Rogues, Unseen Seers and Scouts. They're THAT good at sneaking. Hariman PS: I actually think that mongrelfolk are pretty cool.
Fsi-Dib 08-11-07, 09:14 PM	I happen to play a gnome beguiler at my region (Naerie), and if he'd bump into a kobold, he'd most likely turn him in. For obvious reason. (My gnome's lawful neutral. And joins the Nasranite Watch.) Furthermore, it might not be just the Triads that want to make the kobolds' life difficult; the DMs might do the same. As I've seen it, most of my region's DMs are anti-kobold. Mind you, I'm a primarily player/DM, and I don't like the whole idea of kobolds having any easy time. It must be harsh. If I'd make a kobold, I'd make sure he can cast Disguise Self at 1st level and have huge robes. Also, Hat of Disguise is a must-have item for all kobolds.
gomeztoo 08-12-07, 09:30 AM	The skulk are a creation of the Suel Imperium along with derro. Skulk are evil, and in a much more 'ingrained evil' way than kobolds or orcs. Not a good choice. Mongrelfolk are a much better choice.
Stafir Ortnev 08-13-07, 07:19 PM	Personally I hope the circles ruling is anything too...forced. I hope its just a simple cap on the punishments, and suggestions on ways to make it so they can be negated. I'm a player in Yeomanry myself, and I want to play kobold. I know of someone else who wants to play a kobold in Yeomanry, and he too agrees with the ruling. Yasee..I actually like the idea of roleplaying to be realistic in the way of being 'consistant'. That helps me get into character, makes me enjoy the game. Yes a race I want to play would be screwed over and would be harder to play. But you know what? It screws over the entire region if my character, who is of a race that everyone in the yeomanry fears, hates, and tends to kill on sight because they cause so much problems....is suddenly welcomed with open arms and only mild distrust for no apparent reason whatsover. No..I'd prefer the race need to proove itself (which the yeomanry said could happen over time).
Eric Anondson 08-13-07, 09:17 PM	Skulk are evil, and in a much more 'ingrained evil' way than kobolds or orcs. Not a good choice.Eh, if kobolds can be reformed with metally sprinkle dust, a group of skulks could easily get the same treatment. ;) If the circle won't mind level adjusted races without racial levels, then half-ogres would be an interesting go. There is one (maybe two?) in Greyhawk City, and another rules the nation of Ull. I don't think the +2 LA without racial levels is something that can be overcome though. :) I've always wanted to play a half-ogre though.
Timlagor 08-14-07, 08:06 AM	So will there be GM rewards for Kobold Tails?
Zanzibax 08-14-07, 10:09 AM	So will there be GM rewards for Kobold Tails? They are in and of themselves reward enough. Who needs to be paid? Just start your own collection today and begin a new path of wholesome family fun and satisfaction!
KarmaInferno 08-14-07, 11:40 AM	If I'd make a kobold, I'd make sure he can cast Disguise Self at 1st level and have huge robes. Also, Hat of Disguise is a must-have item for all kobolds. Kinda meta-gaming, isn't it? After all, these are kobolds from a land that accepts and loves them, where they are seen as productive valued members of society. -karma
Umbra_Kaitou 08-14-07, 12:18 PM	Kinda meta-gaming, isn't it? After all, these are kobolds from a land that accepts and loves them, where they are seen as productive valued members of society. -karma Maybe, but personally I don't see how having your 1st level kobold killed every intro mod would be enjoyable either... And I don't know the history of the misty isles but its likely humans from out of the islands have come in and shown distaste, so they probably know what to expect.
Arvagor 08-14-07, 01:48 PM	And I don't know the history of the misty isles but its likely humans from out of the islands have come in and shown distaste, so they probably know what to expect.There are no humans on the islands -- only the dragons, "beast folk", and kobolds. Occasionally, pirates from the nearby Pirate Isles try to establish bases on the Mist Kingdom's shores, but they are always run off by the dragons...
Umbra_Kaitou 08-14-07, 06:16 PM	There are no humans on the islands -- only the dragons, "beast folk", and kobolds. Occasionally, pirates from the nearby Pirate Isles try to establish bases on the Mist Kingdom's shores, but they are always run off by the dragons... Then they have learned that pirates (likely humans) are afraid of dragons...
Fsi-Dib 08-15-07, 02:32 AM	A clever traveller might acquire information of the land he is travelling to. It is foolish to expect native inhabitants to love you, just because you happen to be loved in your own country. As such a kobold beguiler (or just about any class) would keep it in the shadows before knowing enough, learning the local culture and racial standings before doing something final. Such as getting killed. I might suspect strong racism towards kobolds in rural villages that have had their history with kobolds. Maybe not killing, since it could cause only more trouble.
Eric Anondson 08-15-07, 03:54 AM	Then they have learned that pirates (likely humans) are afraid of dragons...The pirates are not so much scared off as every single one gets killed by the dragons. A couple are allowed to live so they can flee and tell others not to go there. The pirates try to reestablish a base in the Mist Kingdom archipelago once every generation (every few decades). Its not like kobolds see this all the time, or even see it at all ;). The islands are shrouded in thick fog always, as far out as a mile from the shores.
Timlagor 08-15-07, 06:37 AM	How long do you think it would take the average kobold to get the impression that he isn't welcome? An Adventurer-Class Kobold should be expected to survive their first encounter with a random commoner before their first module. (and if they aren't up to surviving that they are unlikely to need an AR)
Hariman 08-15-07, 09:47 AM	How long do you think it would take the average kobold to get the impression that he isn't welcome? An Adventurer-Class Kobold should be expected to survive their first encounter with a random commoner before their first module. (and if they aren't up to surviving that they are unlikely to need an AR) Hell, just stepping off the boat onto the dock would likely get a "Hands up Kobolds, don't make any sudden moves!" And surprised guards when the mist kobolds actually comply.
Fsi-Dib 08-16-07, 02:39 AM	Hell, just stepping off the boat onto the dock would likely get a "Hands up Kobolds, don't make any sudden moves!" And surprised guards when the mist kobolds actually comply. If the mist kobolds are exact replicas of the one in Monster Manual, a common kobold does not speak common. ;)
Hariman 08-16-07, 02:55 AM	If the mist kobolds are exact replicas of the one in Monster Manual, a common kobold does not speak common. ;) Sheesh. You're splitting hairs so much you're giving me split ends. One can assume that at least a few of the Kobolds could speak Common. Or Maybe a few of the Guards could speak Draconic.
_metz_ 08-16-07, 03:29 AM	If the mist kobolds are exact replicas of the one in Monster Manual, a common kobold does not speak common. ;) They aren't though. They are the Kobolds from Races of the Dragon, and the Dispel Confusion already states they do not get common automatically.