Retrain Skill points... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Retrain Skill points... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
haferka
02-22-07, 02:21 PM Retraining Question - what happens when you retrain a feat or class feature that gave you some skills as class skills? Especially one that required that use to get into a PrC or feat in the first place.

Example: Cleric of Boccob takes the Knowledge Domain at 1st level. At 6th level he enters a PrC that gives him all Knowledge skills, but required 8 ranks in Knowledge(Nature) to get into it. He then retrains the Knowledge Domain into another Domain.

Is that legal?

That would have made your later skill selections illegal, since you would not have been able to select those skill ranks without that domain; hence, the Retrain would be illegal. You would first have to Retrain out those skill points and then Retrain the domain.

OK, I think Britt is leaving out an option here... (lets look at retraining skill points)

Retraining skill points allows you shift skill ranks from 1 skill to another.
1) It ignores the fact that you may have payed cross class for them.
2) It specificly allows you to shift "ranks" (not skill points)

I believe the "legal build" is refering to a legal build at your current level.. so you could not exceed your "max ranks" in a class skill, but you could use skill ranks that you earned at first level in skills that were cross class for your current class.

Britts statment seems perfectly correct.. but..

If that same character were to gain 1 level of any class with knowledge(nature).. and Retrain skill ranks into it from that point.. before gaining the prestige class... He could then retrain his domain .. since it would no longer be required to meet the prestige class requirements.
The_Jester
02-22-07, 08:40 PM That's... really stretching the intent of the rules.

Legal does mean that the selections had to be possible at the levels you're retraining. It lets you retroactively design a build from level 1 up. You still have to abide by the class skills of earlier classes depending on the order you chose them.
Picking a PrC that offers Knowledge (Nature) doesn't unlock the skill for your entire adventuring career from L1 onward, just for the skill points from that level. If you only get 4 skill points for that level you better not have 9 ranks unless you give up the additional 10 skill points (and remember that you need to be L7 to have 5 ranks in CC skill).
bhale187
02-22-07, 08:57 PM Picking a PrC that offers Knowledge (Nature) doesn't unlock the skill for your entire adventuring career from L1 onward, just for the skill points from that level.

Actually it does kind of open it back to L1, at least 4 skill points at a time anyway.
"The skill to which you add the ranks must be a class skill for one of your character's classes, including a class he is about to gain with the current level increase."

Retraining is a nightmarish can of worms..........
jstorrie
02-22-07, 09:59 PM If you retrain out a domain or feat that offered a bonus class skill, your ranks should halve themselves (as they are now CC.) You'd have to retrain again in the future to get those skill points out of the now-cross-class skill.
bitznarf
02-23-07, 11:32 AM If you retrain out a domain or feat that offered a bonus class skill, your ranks should halve themselves (as they are now CC.) You'd have to retrain again in the future to get those skill points out of the now-cross-class skill.

I believe it is skill ranks that retraining concerns itself with, not skill points.
Mommy was an Orc
02-23-07, 11:39 AM The general problem with doing that is that if you could do that, the benefits aren't that great.

Usually, the PrC you're trying to get into via retraining is one that would be very difficult normally due to the weight of cross-classing. And that PrC is the only one you want to get into.

Divine Prankster as an example - Rogue 1/Cleric 4 is a difficult way into the build as you need 5 skill points per level - most people choose 2 levels of Bard or Rogue to bypass it, but it is just possible with a 14 Int/Human or 16 Int non-human. Taking a level of anything but cleric though, slows spell progression. And there's not an obvious choice to get around it.

With retraining though, Divine Prankster is *easy* to get into. You could do it with a 10 Int Human(Trickery = 1, retraining at 4th/5th means cross-classing one skill at 5th for 2)
mlund
02-23-07, 01:50 PM Perhaps this is part of the reason why the PHBII doesn't engage in any of this nonsense about "illegal characters." It explicitly says what you can not do in the various sub-sections on retraining.

It says you can't retrain Class Abilities with later-build dependencies without first eliminating the dependent features.

It says no such thing in the Feats sub-section, for example. Instead it says that you can't retrain a feat into another feat you couldn't have taken in the same slot at the level you gained the slot. It gives an example of not being able to retrain Weapon Specialization as your Level 3 feat after attaining Fighter 4.

There is nothing in the Skills section about moving Skill Points, only Skill Ranks. There is nothing about converting Cross Class Skills into In-Class Skills on a 1:2 or 2:1 ratio.

I'm sure if someone came in and wanted to retrain 4 ranks of a Cross-class Skill into 8 ranks of an in-class skill someone would call him a cheese weasel and throw rotten fruit at him. Your ranks don't suddenly double when you gain something as a Class Skill from a new level, after all.

The rules really don't support these extra complications to Retraining that you get when you start jumping at the specter of "illegal characters" that they themselves do not address. If there is anything to be read into this text beyond its basic reading, it needs to come from an official FAQ by Wizards - not a Dispel Confusion of message-board post by Circle Members.

It is truly a Core Game Rules discussion, not LGCS issue. The same policy that the Circle invokes to refuse to rule on every weird combat mechanic or skill-use question that keys off of Core Game Rules clearly applies here.

I'm curious as to why they won't stick to their own policy on this particular matter.

- Marty Lund
The_Jester
02-23-07, 02:39 PM At its heart skill retraining aims to do one thing. Give you a big ol' sack of skill points to put things in different places.
While it talks of ranks it should really mean points. If I made a mistake and dumped a couple points into a CC skill and want those back I shouldn't be forced to only put them in other CC skills or keep the ranks when I move it to a class skill and essentially lose point in the transition. There's already a sacrifice of gold a TUs.
I should have my maximum total ranks to rearrange however I see fit.

Skill retraining does need some clarification.

Although, who really pays attention to skills anyway? Devil's advocate, there is no hard way of checking what ranks are or are not in given slots, it's already pretty much the honor system. I play with the same group of people ever month and have no clue what skills they do or do not have...
haferka
02-23-07, 05:39 PM At its heart skill retraining aims to do one thing. Give you a big ol' sack of skill points to put things in different places.
Sorta.. it lets you move small groups of skill RANKS (up to 4 at a time) from 1 skill to another.
While it talks of ranks it should really mean points.
No, they wrote ranks becouse they meant ranks.
If I made a mistake and dumped a couple points into a CC skill and want those back I shouldn't be forced to only put them in other CC skills or keep the ranks when I move it to a class skill and essentially lose point in the transition.
If you made a mistake.. get a "rebuild" that is the ONLY way to go all the way back the the begining of your character progression.
There's already a sacrifice of gold a TUs.
I should have my maximum total ranks to rearrange however I see fit.

Skill retraining does need some clarification.
An FAQ would be nice.
Although, who really pays attention to skills anyway? Devil's advocate, there is no hard way of checking what ranks are or are not in given slots, it's already pretty much the honor system. I play with the same group of people ever month and have no clue what skills they do or do not have...
True, are you trying to talk yourself into cheating?
The_Jester
02-23-07, 07:56 PM Naw, I was checking my character sheet recently (I replace every couple levels) and noticed that last time (or one of the times before that) a couple extra ranks slipped in. Likely bad math or clumsiness or stray pencil scratch mistaken for a "1".
So I was trying to figure out where to take the extra ranks from without just picking the least-used skills and musing over how long it might have taken me to notice.

The zen of RPGs...
If a player breaks the rules and no one notices is it still cheating?
haferka
02-23-07, 11:24 PM Thats why I love Hero forge... no mistakes.
Mommy was an Orc
02-24-07, 09:16 AM Thats why I love Hero forge... no mistakes.

Heroforge does retraining?(serious question here - I've been doing builds and the skills math is just weird - putting -8s in a skill to get rid of the ranks.
haferka
02-24-07, 09:31 AM Actually, no it doesnt, but it seems like an easy item for them to add. A new tab (hidden by default) which lets you choose a level (when you did the retrain), what to retrain (Feats & Skills, etc.. are chosen..)

I recomended Heroforge becouse it would have prevented you from accidently adding any ranks... I try to have a character pre-printed for my current, and next level. Then keep ahold of the old character sheets... (just incase you get level drained...)
Questor
02-28-07, 06:37 AM If you retrained your skill points and no longer had enough to qualify for a PrC that you had (eg PrC1 needs 5 ranks in jump and 5 in hide and you then retrained four of the hide ranks into heal) - do you

a] lose all benefits of the PrC
b] keep all benefits of the PrC but may no longer advance in it until you have the requisite points again
c] you are not allowed to train away anything that is a pre-requisite so moot point?
berpo
02-28-07, 07:43 AM You cannot retrain skill or whatever to make your caracther invalid or illegal. So "C", you cannot retrain that many skills to prevent you to continue on your Prc.

Marc

Tusmit
mlund
02-28-07, 01:06 PM You cannot retrain skill or whatever to make your caracther invalid or illegal. So "C", you cannot retrain that many skills to prevent you to continue on your Prc.

Marc

Tusmit

Note that there is no such broad Official Ruling published by Wizards of the Coast at this time. No such rule exists in the Player's Handbook II, the D&D FAQs, or published Errata.

There is only Britt's fabricated ruling that violates the Circle's policy of not ruling on Core Rules Issues.

The PHBII specifically addresses what uses of retraining are prohibited specific to each kind of Retraining you can engage in. The rules for retraining Skills or Feats are distinct from the rules for retraining, say, Class Features. Nothing in Core Rules prohibits you from retraining Prerequisite Feats, for example. You do have to deal with the fall-out that comes from losing a Prerequisite, however, and wind up eating a lot of Dead Levels.

In Living Greyhawk, however, you are further limited from the Core Rules.

- Marty Lund

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
haferka 02-22-07, 02:21 PM	Retraining Question - what happens when you retrain a feat or class feature that gave you some skills as class skills? Especially one that required that use to get into a PrC or feat in the first place. Example: Cleric of Boccob takes the Knowledge Domain at 1st level. At 6th level he enters a PrC that gives him all Knowledge skills, but required 8 ranks in Knowledge(Nature) to get into it. He then retrains the Knowledge Domain into another Domain. Is that legal? That would have made your later skill selections illegal, since you would not have been able to select those skill ranks without that domain; hence, the Retrain would be illegal. You would first have to Retrain out those skill points and then Retrain the domain. OK, I think Britt is leaving out an option here... (lets look at retraining skill points) Retraining skill points allows you shift skill ranks from 1 skill to another. 1) It ignores the fact that you may have payed cross class for them. 2) It specificly allows you to shift "ranks" (not skill points) I believe the "legal build" is refering to a legal build at your current level.. so you could not exceed your "max ranks" in a class skill, but you could use skill ranks that you earned at first level in skills that were cross class for your current class. Britts statment seems perfectly correct.. but.. If that same character were to gain 1 level of any class with knowledge(nature).. and Retrain skill ranks into it from that point.. before gaining the prestige class... He could then retrain his domain .. since it would no longer be required to meet the prestige class requirements.
The_Jester 02-22-07, 08:40 PM	That's... really stretching the intent of the rules. Legal does mean that the selections had to be possible at the levels you're retraining. It lets you retroactively design a build from level 1 up. You still have to abide by the class skills of earlier classes depending on the order you chose them. Picking a PrC that offers Knowledge (Nature) doesn't unlock the skill for your entire adventuring career from L1 onward, just for the skill points from that level. If you only get 4 skill points for that level you better not have 9 ranks unless you give up the additional 10 skill points (and remember that you need to be L7 to have 5 ranks in CC skill).
bhale187 02-22-07, 08:57 PM	Picking a PrC that offers Knowledge (Nature) doesn't unlock the skill for your entire adventuring career from L1 onward, just for the skill points from that level. Actually it does kind of open it back to L1, at least 4 skill points at a time anyway. "The skill to which you add the ranks must be a class skill for one of your character's classes, including a class he is about to gain with the current level increase." Retraining is a nightmarish can of worms..........
jstorrie 02-22-07, 09:59 PM	If you retrain out a domain or feat that offered a bonus class skill, your ranks should halve themselves (as they are now CC.) You'd have to retrain again in the future to get those skill points out of the now-cross-class skill.
bitznarf 02-23-07, 11:32 AM	If you retrain out a domain or feat that offered a bonus class skill, your ranks should halve themselves (as they are now CC.) You'd have to retrain again in the future to get those skill points out of the now-cross-class skill. I believe it is skill ranks that retraining concerns itself with, not skill points.
Mommy was an Orc 02-23-07, 11:39 AM	The general problem with doing that is that if you could do that, the benefits aren't that great. Usually, the PrC you're trying to get into via retraining is one that would be very difficult normally due to the weight of cross-classing. And that PrC is the only one you want to get into. Divine Prankster as an example - Rogue 1/Cleric 4 is a difficult way into the build as you need 5 skill points per level - most people choose 2 levels of Bard or Rogue to bypass it, but it is just possible with a 14 Int/Human or 16 Int non-human. Taking a level of anything but cleric though, slows spell progression. And there's not an obvious choice to get around it. With retraining though, Divine Prankster is easy to get into. You could do it with a 10 Int Human(Trickery = 1, retraining at 4th/5th means cross-classing one skill at 5th for 2)
mlund 02-23-07, 01:50 PM	Perhaps this is part of the reason why the PHBII doesn't engage in any of this nonsense about "illegal characters." It explicitly says what you can not do in the various sub-sections on retraining. It says you can't retrain Class Abilities with later-build dependencies without first eliminating the dependent features. It says no such thing in the Feats sub-section, for example. Instead it says that you can't retrain a feat into another feat you couldn't have taken in the same slot at the level you gained the slot. It gives an example of not being able to retrain Weapon Specialization as your Level 3 feat after attaining Fighter 4. There is nothing in the Skills section about moving Skill Points, only Skill Ranks. There is nothing about converting Cross Class Skills into In-Class Skills on a 1:2 or 2:1 ratio. I'm sure if someone came in and wanted to retrain 4 ranks of a Cross-class Skill into 8 ranks of an in-class skill someone would call him a cheese weasel and throw rotten fruit at him. Your ranks don't suddenly double when you gain something as a Class Skill from a new level, after all. The rules really don't support these extra complications to Retraining that you get when you start jumping at the specter of "illegal characters" that they themselves do not address. If there is anything to be read into this text beyond its basic reading, it needs to come from an official FAQ by Wizards - not a Dispel Confusion of message-board post by Circle Members. It is truly a Core Game Rules discussion, not LGCS issue. The same policy that the Circle invokes to refuse to rule on every weird combat mechanic or skill-use question that keys off of Core Game Rules clearly applies here. I'm curious as to why they won't stick to their own policy on this particular matter. - Marty Lund
The_Jester 02-23-07, 02:39 PM	At its heart skill retraining aims to do one thing. Give you a big ol' sack of skill points to put things in different places. While it talks of ranks it should really mean points. If I made a mistake and dumped a couple points into a CC skill and want those back I shouldn't be forced to only put them in other CC skills or keep the ranks when I move it to a class skill and essentially lose point in the transition. There's already a sacrifice of gold a TUs. I should have my maximum total ranks to rearrange however I see fit. Skill retraining does need some clarification. Although, who really pays attention to skills anyway? Devil's advocate, there is no hard way of checking what ranks are or are not in given slots, it's already pretty much the honor system. I play with the same group of people ever month and have no clue what skills they do or do not have...
haferka 02-23-07, 05:39 PM	At its heart skill retraining aims to do one thing. Give you a big ol' sack of skill points to put things in different places. Sorta.. it lets you move small groups of skill RANKS (up to 4 at a time) from 1 skill to another. While it talks of ranks it should really mean points. No, they wrote ranks becouse they meant ranks. If I made a mistake and dumped a couple points into a CC skill and want those back I shouldn't be forced to only put them in other CC skills or keep the ranks when I move it to a class skill and essentially lose point in the transition. If you made a mistake.. get a "rebuild" that is the ONLY way to go all the way back the the begining of your character progression. There's already a sacrifice of gold a TUs. I should have my maximum total ranks to rearrange however I see fit. Skill retraining does need some clarification. An FAQ would be nice. Although, who really pays attention to skills anyway? Devil's advocate, there is no hard way of checking what ranks are or are not in given slots, it's already pretty much the honor system. I play with the same group of people ever month and have no clue what skills they do or do not have... True, are you trying to talk yourself into cheating?
The_Jester 02-23-07, 07:56 PM	Naw, I was checking my character sheet recently (I replace every couple levels) and noticed that last time (or one of the times before that) a couple extra ranks slipped in. Likely bad math or clumsiness or stray pencil scratch mistaken for a "1". So I was trying to figure out where to take the extra ranks from without just picking the least-used skills and musing over how long it might have taken me to notice. The zen of RPGs... If a player breaks the rules and no one notices is it still cheating?
haferka 02-23-07, 11:24 PM	Thats why I love Hero forge... no mistakes.
Mommy was an Orc 02-24-07, 09:16 AM	Thats why I love Hero forge... no mistakes. Heroforge does retraining?(serious question here - I've been doing builds and the skills math is just weird - putting -8s in a skill to get rid of the ranks.
haferka 02-24-07, 09:31 AM	Actually, no it doesnt, but it seems like an easy item for them to add. A new tab (hidden by default) which lets you choose a level (when you did the retrain), what to retrain (Feats & Skills, etc.. are chosen..) I recomended Heroforge becouse it would have prevented you from accidently adding any ranks... I try to have a character pre-printed for my current, and next level. Then keep ahold of the old character sheets... (just incase you get level drained...)
Questor 02-28-07, 06:37 AM	If you retrained your skill points and no longer had enough to qualify for a PrC that you had (eg PrC1 needs 5 ranks in jump and 5 in hide and you then retrained four of the hide ranks into heal) - do you a] lose all benefits of the PrC b] keep all benefits of the PrC but may no longer advance in it until you have the requisite points again c] you are not allowed to train away anything that is a pre-requisite so moot point?
berpo 02-28-07, 07:43 AM	You cannot retrain skill or whatever to make your caracther invalid or illegal. So "C", you cannot retrain that many skills to prevent you to continue on your Prc. Marc Tusmit
mlund 02-28-07, 01:06 PM	You cannot retrain skill or whatever to make your caracther invalid or illegal. So "C", you cannot retrain that many skills to prevent you to continue on your Prc. Marc Tusmit Note that there is no such broad Official Ruling published by Wizards of the Coast at this time. No such rule exists in the Player's Handbook II, the D&D FAQs, or published Errata. There is only Britt's fabricated ruling that violates the Circle's policy of not ruling on Core Rules Issues. The PHBII specifically addresses what uses of retraining are prohibited specific to each kind of Retraining you can engage in. The rules for retraining Skills or Feats are distinct from the rules for retraining, say, Class Features. Nothing in Core Rules prohibits you from retraining Prerequisite Feats, for example. You do have to deal with the fall-out that comes from losing a Prerequisite, however, and wind up eating a lot of Dead Levels. In Living Greyhawk, however, you are further limited from the Core Rules. - Marty Lund