Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Puggle Halfwine 07-04-07, 10:27 PM	Hey guys, As someone who writes modules for my region/metaregion and someone who organizes Games Days (and this year even one proper convention- phew!) I tend to eat a fair few modules (or be forced to play them with characters I normally wouldn't, such as playing out of APL, etc). So I was struck by a thought today. Could it be possible for someone who writes a module (or runs a module for others without playing it, 'eating' it) gain some kind of reward for doing so? It would be very easy to do- you simply have a blank AR with four places to sign instead of one (perhaps in the 'items found' box). This AR grants you half the exp and GP of the module (and no access or favours at all) and could be given to any one character you choose. The interactive rules would apply; the APL played is the lesser of the character's level or the character's level rounded down (except for 1st level characters who gain APL 2). This system would REALLY help people in smaller gaming communities, where one GM eats most of the modules (and fall behind their group). I know it's possible this system might be abused, but like I've always maintained- if people wanted to cheat by forging ARs, then they're probably already doing this. This system is no more/less secure than what we currently have; in fact, since it would require four signatures instead of just one, it's probably MORE secure. What does everyone think? Lord Britt, hear my humble suggestion!
LGMoses 07-04-07, 10:55 PM	As a Judge who solely eats modules so that my local gamers can play, I support any ruling that will get me more swag;) It does suck though, eating all the mods and never getting to play. It would be nice to get SOMETHING. Whatever happened to those RPGA dice bags I was seeing on Ebay? Well, I don't really care if I get nething really. I'll still be bummed out that I never get to play:(
JJeff 07-04-07, 11:06 PM	I also agree. I eat modules like it was food. I have been running games for my group and I have only got to play a grand total of 14 modules in my entire RPGA lifetime. Seeing 200+ GM points and only 30+ player points makes me sad. I'm not asking for more swag for me. I want more swag for my character who is really sitting aorund not doing anything. Seeing items on ARs that I just downloaded to run that my character would die for is kinda painful. But that's just me... I'll still run games nonetheless... Master Level GM in Singapore
draxynnic 07-05-07, 07:33 AM	I suspect it'd be even better for Triad members, who eat an average of sixteen modules a year (on top of any Cores they may write or otherwise eat).
awroe 07-05-07, 07:40 AM	I suspect it'd be even better for Triad members, who eat an average of sixteen modules a year (on top of any Cores they may write or otherwise eat). And think about Circle members - they'll be able to retire characters without ever having to actually play them :)
draxynnic 07-05-07, 07:49 AM	Hrrmn. Maybe there should be some kind of limit on the number of modules you can claim a year. After all, Circle guys are allowed to retire back into the general player base, I believe, and it would be a bit silly having them claim every regional, metaregional, interactive and Core Special in existence.
Bogjob 07-05-07, 08:14 AM	Here in Northern Ireland we also have small player base with about 18 players max (incl people we see 3 or 4 times a year) so we have a spreadsheet on our Yahoo group were we all put our names down in advance for running mods so no one gets hammered by eating too many mods. It also means we can continue to DM the same story lines etc. i.e. one of us runs all the Tenh 'Dust' mods etc. One of our DM's very kindly took on all the Bright Sands mods and one is going to do the Ruins mods. I find now with all the ADP's coming out that even if you do run more than your fair share of mods you can still get plenty of gaming in. It also helps that we have one of the Onnwal triad members who games with us when he can so regionals and meta's are run by him and he gets to play all the Cores without eating any. I don't mind DMing mods but would hate not being able to play at all.
Timlagor 07-05-07, 07:46 PM	This has definitely been discussed and rejected in the past. I think the main objection is that LG characters should have earned their rewards in character but there may also be other reasons.
mowaca 07-05-07, 08:08 PM	I remember reading Living Arcanis specifically addresses this problem. From the Rules Compliation... (http://www.livingarcanis.com/images/Living_Arcanis_Rules_Compilation_2005-01-25.pdf) GM and Author Rewards When a LIVING ARCANIS player “eats” a module (either by writing it or by judging it before having played it, and thus being unable to ever play it), that player may choose to gain the following benefits. The player receives a one-time bonus of 500 XP and 250 gold pieces to be added to the experience and treasure gained by one of his PCs the next time he plays that PC in a sanctioned LIVING ARCANIS module. Both of these benefits are per round of the module written or judged. I have no idea if its a good thing or a bad thing since I don't play Living Arcanis, but sounds easy enough to implement in LG.
control freak 07-05-07, 08:13 PM	rewards? *promptly gets his mod he is DMing and starts eating it page by page* now what do i get? :D
trollbill 07-05-07, 09:35 PM	This has definitely been discussed and rejected in the past. I think the main objection is that LG characters should have earned their rewards in character but there may also be other reasons. Given the Ruins of Undermountain campaign rewards for LG characters, that philosphy doesn't seem to hold anymore.
draxynnic 07-05-07, 11:47 PM	rewards? *promptly gets his mod he is DMing and starts eating it page by page* now what do i get? :D Indigestion? :D
gomeztoo 07-06-07, 03:34 AM	I have no idea if its a good thing or a bad thing since I don't play Living Arcanis, but sounds easy enough to implement in LG. Well, that would be one way to get some of my PCs fit for Dominion ;)
KShaver 07-06-07, 09:32 AM	Given the Ruins of Undermountain campaign rewards for LG characters, that philosphy doesn't seem to hold anymore. Totally broke my argument against it as well. I just don't get it. Maybe I'll try to squeeze into one of the Undermountain groups this weekend.
Takei 07-06-07, 09:45 AM	I remember reading Living Arcanis specifically addresses this problem. I have no idea if its a good thing or a bad thing since I don't play Living Arcanis, but sounds easy enough to implement in LG. There are a couple of things Living Arcanis could teach LG. This and rebulding characters (but that's something for another thread!)
control freak 07-06-07, 01:28 PM	Indigestion? :D do i get pepto for it? :D
amnuxoll 07-06-07, 02:02 PM	I remain strongly in support of this and have been every single time it has been proposed. The RPGA in general (and Living Greyhawk in particular) thrives only because there are volunteers willing to make it thrive. Despite this, our organization does very little to reward volunteers. At the same time there is a shortage of good volunteers in the campaign. (Surprise!) Evidence for this claim: For starters, the "burn out" rate for triad members is very high. I contend this should not be a surprise given that triad members give up the right to play roughly 20 mods a year *and* perform a series of significant jobs that, if done poorly, cause them to receive lots of negative feedback. More evidence for this claim: It's been my observation also that the judge:player ratio in the region has also declined. I increasingly see players who have to be strong-armed or bribed into judging because no one else can do it. If you want more concrete evidence, look at GenCon where there simply are not enough (not nearly enough) judges to meet demand and, as a result, events now sell out in a matter of hours. Why is this? I contend that it's because we are not rewarding our volunteers enough. In fact, we're mostly just punishing them. I'm not saying you should make it so rewarding that all the self-serving powergamers want to do it. But we can do better. I think the right approach is two pronged: 1. Increase the reward: Make being a volunteer a point of prestige. Reward triad members, convention organizers and authors with minor but publicly displayed rewards. Perhaps there is a Special that comes out once a year that only volunteers can play? 2. Reduce the punishment. One way to do this is to award 1/2 xp/gp to those eat or write mods. Another might be to allow triad members to play a few mods out of region to compensate for their loss. Evidence that this will work: Both Living Arcanis and Living Kalamar allow judges to gain xp for eating mods and the system has worked excellently and has definitely not been abused. Further (admittedly circumstantial) evidence for this claim: The burnout rate for Circle members is significantly lower. I can't help but also notice that being a Circle member is a point of prestige *and* because Circle members get a series of minor rewards for their sacrifice. :AMN:
gomeztoo 07-06-07, 04:31 PM	Actually imo that is mostly because Circle members are chosen from a group of volunteers that have proven to be up to the task.
UMiskatonic 07-06-07, 06:54 PM	Judge rewards also worked very well for Living Spycraft. Another point: Giving out a few Xp or Gp to volunteers doesn't -cost- anything. Think about that. You have thousands of people who would literally judge for days, just for the right to add a few Xp and Gp to a character sheet. I can't see where this could possibly go bad. There will, of course, be people who say "Well, you can advance a guy super far without doing all that much playing." So what? The person who judges a lot sits down at an APL 8 table instead of an APL 4 table? The proposed model doesn't give out special favors or access, and therefore is a bit of a disadvantage compared to playing those mods. AND, you'll have a never-ending supply of volunteers. Those very same people who are DETERMINED to play every LG mod will now want to judge as much as possible. How is that bad?
Samwise 07-06-07, 07:41 PM	I can't see where this could possibly go bad. I can. Me. I didn't start to play LG until 2005, whereupon I promptly got back into being a volunteer. Assuming I have said "What the heck" and played a random adventure or two, or let myself be dragged over the border to play Bissel adventures, and using the Living Arcanis numbers: 2000/2001 9 Cores 11 Adaptables 8 Regionals 2002 13 Cores 2 Adaptables 8 Regionals 2003 19 Cores 8 regionals 2004 20 Cores 8 regionals 4 metaregionals 2005 6 cores 4 regionals 4 metaregionals 2006 15 Cores 2 Core Specials 2007 20 Cores 3 Core Specials 1 Greyhawk Ruins That is 141 rounds, which means I'd have 70,500 xp and 35,250 gp from past years, with another 12,000 xp and 6,000 gp coming to me for this year. (And I'm sure I'm missing a few things in there, like a few core specials in earlier years that I ran Slot 0s of for other people going to conventions.) All of that just because I like running more than playing, and was happy to run anything and everything so other people wouldn't have to eat the adventures. And I'm sure there are people who know me and like me (or at least don't hate me utterly ;) ) who would say I deserve to have a 10th level character (or combination of lower level characters) if I want one for everything I've done. Of course I'm also sure there are many more who would be outraged that I get something like that for "free." Yes, I know I'm an extreme example, and most people won't get anywhere near that. And I'm sure someone could come up with ten pages of rules to limit it so it would never get that excessive. The problem is, it can get that excessive, very easily, and that needs to be fully understood.
Mattastrophic 07-06-07, 07:48 PM	I'm a wholehearted supporter of giving judges something that tastes good in exchange for eating a mod. Unfortunately, I'm thinking that as long as the Circle remains so concerned with the XP/GP curve, it'll never happen. They'll have to let go a bit first. -Matt
Lomiat 07-06-07, 07:51 PM	I think it's unlikely that a proposal like this would gain acceptance enough to enter the campaign, and while it's certainly true that many people "eat" more than their fair share of mods, it's also true that such individuals tend to gain unofficial favors by way of favoritism. If they don't, they certainly should, but there's no way, here, to enforce "should." Nonetheless, if a DM in my area ate, say, Red Hand of Doom, to run it for two playgroups, I'd darn well make certain that when I put together an "adaptables weekend" to play through a handful of other adapatables, this "theoretical" judge would be among the first people I'd invite to join our tables. Triad traveling out of region tend to play free and get seated with top judges. People who write mods for their local triad and who put in hours and hours of labor organizing events are more likely to have their special mission requests approved. Other players, judges, and writers are more likely to help ensure that the mission gets written, run and played. I'm not going to say that any way is the "one right way" (I'm no Pholtan, after all), but there are lots of ways that people contributing to the campaign are rewarded. Finally, it comes down to this: Are you frustrated by the lack of reward for your volunteered contributions? If so, back off; try to play more and let other people step up to make things happen. If they don't, you're under no obligation to slave at D&D for a bunch of ingrates. If you're not frustrated, then you're doing like most of us who contribute to the campaign in one or more ways: You're adding what you feel you can give without overtaxing yourself. As long as it's still fun, writing, organizing and judging are their own rewards (maybe not as much fun as playing, but still fun).
The_Jester 07-06-07, 07:55 PM	What about double reward points? It nets DMs more minis and/or templates. Simple yet not out of the ordinary. Easy to implement (a box that you check off when a mod is eaten that it counts double). Yet not so overbalancing that it will encourage people to eat mods for risk-free rewards.
Banor 07-06-07, 08:56 PM	What about double reward points? It nets DMs more minis and/or templates. Simple yet not out of the ordinary. Easy to implement (a box that you check off when a mod is eaten that it counts double). Yet not so overbalancing that it will encourage people to eat mods for risk-free rewards. That is actually a very good idea. Especially because it doesn't affect in game stats. As much as i appreciate people burning mods, having a direct in game effect (xp and gp) would be a so-so move. The reward program is a great idea imo.
JJeff 07-06-07, 10:30 PM	That is actually a very good idea. Especially because it doesn't affect in game stats. As much as i appreciate people burning mods, having a direct in game effect (xp and gp) would be a so-so move. The reward program is a great idea imo. The problem IMO of this idea is that some people who eat mods all day long (ie, never play games since their local scene doesn't have many volunteers) would have tons of minis and Reward cards and such. Doubling the reward would just dump more stuff that the guy doesn't really use (except the minis since he can use them as a DM). I for one have DM reward points in the hundreds and my reward package when the mail does finally come in is huge. My player points is only 30... total from when I started RPGA to now... 30. I have tons of cards, MOH, XE, LG reward cards, but I never get to use them. I have only 1 character, a level 5. that's all. I understand it would be efficient and simple to double the reward and all, but the people eating mods regularly (which are the ones that this "I eat mods" reward system is targetting) don't need more cards... really... If something that affects the character's XP gold curve cannot be released, why not something else that is unique only to people that eat a certain number of mods each mailing period. Maybe like cards which will never be delivered to players? This will allow the "mod eaters" to get a small edge over those that don't (and tries to equal the disparity between the "mod eaters" and the "I play Only" groups) and maybe even encourage people to run mods just to get such cards.
Takei 07-07-07, 04:55 AM	That is 141 rounds, which means I'd have 70,500 xp and 35,250 gp from past years, with another 12,000 xp and 6,000 gp coming to me for this year. (And I'm sure I'm missing a few things in there, like a few core specials in earlier years that I ran Slot 0s of for other people going to conventions.) All of that just because I like running more than playing, and was happy to run anything and everything so other people wouldn't have to eat the adventures. And I'm sure there are people who know me and like me (or at least don't hate me utterly ;) ) who would say I deserve to have a 10th level character (or combination of lower level characters) if I want one for everything I've done. Of course I'm also sure there are many more who would be outraged that I get something like that for "free." Yes, I know I'm an extreme example, and most people won't get anywhere near that. And I'm sure someone could come up with ten pages of rules to limit it so it would never get that excessive. The problem is, it can get that excessive, very easily, and that needs to be fully understood. I think that the vast majority of players would have no problem whatsoever with you getting the xp and gp looking at the mods you've eaten. One other point of note is that players on any table you join don't have to know what you've eaten - how often have players asked to see each others AR history? I've never seen it, so my feeling is that you could easily join a table with your 10th level character and no-one would be the wiser. I think the Arcanis approach is the right one.
gomeztoo 07-07-07, 11:26 AM	The Arcanis approach migth work. Note though that if you give out xp and gp, you should also make it cost TU. Another option is special access - you could give people who eat mods access to one item out of a standard list of NONC items. These could be items that others won't get, too - giving them a certain status. Of course that one is a bit more difficult to implement, so I don't expect it will work.
wangka 07-07-07, 12:18 PM	I'd like to add my support to this idea. Although I'm fairly new to the LG scene, (my opinion) favors having a large available pool of good GMs as essential for a thriving campaign scene. Smaller communities certainly make it tougher for GMs to get some playtime in. (Although, if online/VC games are fairly doable, that may mitigate the problem somewhat.) If people are concerned about abusing "eaten" modules giving an AR at half gp/xp perhaps there could be an annual limit per character; say, only three a year to be assigned to each character and TU costs need to be paid. That seems like it should minimize excessive paperwork requirements and address fears of abusing the system.
GreatSiron 07-07-07, 01:46 PM	The Arcanis approach migth work. Note though that if you give out xp and gp, you should also make it cost TU. Another option is special access - you could give people who eat mods access to one item out of a standard list of NONC items. These could be items that others won't get, too - giving them a certain status. Of course that one is a bit more difficult to implement, so I don't expect it will work. Why not just give them access to one or more items from the AR instead? Not all of them, just one or two, so at least they can keep up in terms of access.
gomeztoo 07-07-07, 02:05 PM	Why not just give them access to one or more items from the AR instead? I don't think that would be wise, as authors of scenarios (which imo should be included in a rewarding system) determine what access they give, and could therefor, hypothetically, give access to items they want themselves.
Takei 07-07-07, 02:27 PM	I don't think that would be wise, as authors of scenarios (which imo should be included in a rewarding system) determine what access they give, and could therefor, hypothetically, give access to items they want themselves. I agree with this point. Give out xp/gp but not access or favours.
GreatSiron 07-07-07, 03:49 PM	I don't think that would be wise, as authors of scenarios (which imo should be included in a rewarding system) determine what access they give, and could therefor, hypothetically, give access to items they want themselves. Opps, didn't consider that. Though someone who goes thru all the trouble of writing a module deserves more than just 1/2 exp and 1/2 gold.
gomeztoo 07-07-07, 03:55 PM	Opps, didn't consider that. Though someone who goes thru all the trouble of writing a module deserves more than just 1/2 exp and 1/2 gold. As a regular writer: no, not really. You write for fun, just as you DM for fun. If you don't have fun writing/DMing, you are doing something wrong. I think a sort of reward would be nice, sure. But we shouldn't feel entitled to it.
Lupo 07-07-07, 08:06 PM	As a regular writer: no, not really. You write for fun, just as you DM for fun. If you don't have fun writing/DMing, you are doing something wrong. I think a sort of reward would be nice, sure. But we shouldn't feel entitled to it. just so true :D if DMs would only like to DM if they get reward in the campaign, it is WRONG! if DMs would only eat modules (and i HATE it) if they get a reward in the campaign, it is WRONG!! if authors only write modules if they get a reward in the campaign, it is totally WRONG!!! with this system you will most likely not get good DMs and authors but greedy ones ;) ciao martin m.
Donald_Cannith 07-08-07, 03:05 AM	I think it would be nice to offset the, adventures i can never play pain with extra rewads. The points would be nic or possibly, sinnce DMs wh oeat alot probably do not play often, giv moreDM aids like fre minis templates, dice, etc.
draxynnic 07-08-07, 03:22 AM	The problem with giving extra reward points is that, at the moment, the rewards don't really give much to people who get a lot of them. I believe DM rewards used to give actual boxes of minis, but nowadays it's cards and promo minis. In a recent mailout, I received six copies of the entire set of cards for that round (and a few extras). What exactly am I going to do with those? I think most of that was from playing rather than DMing, but there are a few DMs in my local area which have dozens of Mad Slashers from a couple of years ago. It was something of a joke when it happened.
Takei 07-08-07, 03:47 AM	--
_metz_ 07-08-07, 03:51 AM	Definitely, if DM rewards were actually meaningful, more points would help. What do I care if I get a promo mini thats not that useful! send me a box of Orcs or Demons that might actually crop up in a mod! Lets not get started on the 6 copies of the same cards. (Which aren't very good cards, I might add) So I can have 6 snow elves. Woo. DM rewards need: More templates, more minis, etc. Maybe even a copy of the latest book released? (Need lots of points for this) On the main topical note, I do feel however that DMing should be because you enjoy it, and burning the odd mod is about that. However I do feel current DM rewards are insufficient as an incentive by themselves. (Increase rewards under the current system) I don't think ARs with xp and gold are viable at all.
Takei 07-08-07, 03:56 AM	just so true :D if DMs would only like to DM if they get reward in the campaign, it is WRONG! if DMs would only eat modules (and i HATE it) if they get a reward in the campaign, it is WRONG!! if authors only write modules if they get a reward in the campaign, it is totally WRONG!!! with this system you will most likely not get good DMs and authors but greedy ones ;) ciao martin m. We have plenty of DMs and writers right now who are doing it without rewards, so I think your fears are groundless. If the rewards given out were large enough then I think your concerns have substance. Adopting the LA approach of 500xp and 250gp is not excessive as the greedy gamers would still be better off playing the mod rather than eating it. Note that I don't think item/favour access should be granted - just xp and gp. Possibly half xp/gp, but then that can be abused by claiming a higher than played APL, so a fixed amount is probably the way to go.
draxynnic 07-08-07, 07:53 AM	Probably less than 500xp, actually. An APL2 game only gives 450. Possibly a straight 250/250.
Sieylianna 07-08-07, 05:28 PM	I think it would be a good idea. Living Arcanis does it. Living Kalamar does it. I believe the Blackmoor (non-RPGA) campaign does it. Honestly, considering the amount of material that requires acess to take/purchase/etc (items, feats, prestige classes and spells), I'd argue that some form of acess should be offered. I recently ate a module only to discover that something I've been wanting for years was available in it, but I couldn't get it. How likely am I to eat another module? It's not going to happen. IME, more people enjoy playing D&D to judging D&D. They may judge, but generally won't do so without a slot zero and that isn't always possible. Ed
Genghis Cohen 07-08-07, 05:58 PM	... For starters, the "burn out" rate for triad members is very high. I contend this should not be a surprise given that triad members give up the right to play roughly 20 mods a year *and* perform a series of significant jobs that, if done poorly, cause them to receive lots of negative feedback...I've never been on a triad, but as a former officer in a national volunteer organization, who was tasked with directing volunteer leaders in 24 areas, I think that the burnout rate might partly be attributed to the organization's structure. The triad is composed of three individuals with three separate areas of responsibility. Are they cross-training each other so that every organizational function is operational during an absence? What committees do they chair so that they don't have to do all of the work? What is being done so that there is a clear pool of potential successors? How is institutional memory being preserved? As an outsider looking in, it seems that new triad members often have to reinvent the wheel, and that they have to do this alone. RPGA points and other rewards won't fix this. I don't know what the fix is, or to what extent that it is needed. What does the RPGA do to preserve the institutional memory of the triads? How much of a triad member's work can only be done by a triad member? Delegate what can be delegated, and do this to small committees, not to individuals. With the remaining workload, is 3 volunteers enough? Its easier to attract and retain volunteers if the workload is not overwhelming. Perhaps the triad structure needs to be replaced with an executive board of several members. Just some thoughts.
clannagh 07-08-07, 09:40 PM	The problem with giving extra reward points is that, at the moment, the rewards don't really give much to people who get a lot of them. I believe DM rewards used to give actual boxes of minis, but nowadays it's cards and promo minis. In a recent mailout, I received six copies of the entire set of cards for that round (and a few extras). What exactly am I going to do with those? I think most of that was from playing rather than DMing, but there are a few DMs in my local area which have dozens of Mad Slashers from a couple of years ago. It was something of a joke when it happened. or you could allow DM's to alocate there reward cards to monsters * evil grin *
draxynnic 07-08-07, 10:28 PM	or you could allow DM's to allocate there reward cards to monsters * evil grin * It's been another local joke to make up DM "anti-cards" which cancel out a specific PC reward card. Things like: "Not This Time" - "Yes, This Time" "Missed Me" - "No I Didn't" "Let's Try That Again" - "You Still Fail"
_metz_ 07-09-07, 03:55 AM	or you could allow DM's to alocate there reward cards to monsters * evil grin * Technically, Blacktown GMs can do this with their buttons Clannagh, they just don't :P (Though I have seen Wes use his to help out the Party once, which was nice)
amnuxoll 07-09-07, 09:39 AM	It's been another local joke to make up DM "anti-cards" which cancel out a specific PC reward card. Things like: "Not This Time" - "Yes, This Time" "Missed Me" - "No I Didn't" "Let's Try That Again" - "You Still Fail" That's the best laugh I've had in a couple days. Thanks. =)
amnuxoll 07-09-07, 09:44 AM	I think that the burnout rate might partly be attributed to the organization's structure. <snip> Are they cross-training each other so that every organizational function is operational during an absence? What committees do they chair so that they don't have to do all of the work? What is being done so that there is a clear pool of potential successors? How is institutional memory being preserved? <snip> I can't speak for all triads, but I think most of them work pretty closely together and do pass information to new members. I've not seen wheels being reinvented out of necessity in any of the four regions I've played in. There are, of course, plenty of instances of a new triad member deliberately starting over because s/he feels there's a better way. When triad members quit the two reasons that seem most frequent are: 1. I'm too busy/tired. (I interpret this reason as "there is too much work involved in being a triad member.") 2. I want to be able to play meta/regional mods again :AMN:
Madfox11 07-09-07, 10:43 AM	The exhange rate among the Circle Members is probably just as high as among the triad members. In the last two years at least 3 were replaced, which is a significant amount. Granted, all Circle members left because they did not had the available time the job requires and deserves, and likely not because of a burn out. My meta-region is not even fully active (no region even comes close to the allowed 8 adventures per year and that includes the meta-region), and it still suprises me how much time it actually consumes. I find this discussion somewhat odd. We have people here complaining about the fact that vollunteers do not get enough appriciation, but xp and gp are a very poor substitute for such appriciation. The suggested amounts are way too low to have a significant impact for the people that would really benefit from it (small groups who play only a very limited amount of games). Besides, how many people actually play just for the xp and gp? There are much better ways to show appreciation, mostly out of the game in our behaviour towards those vollunteers: - Don't be shy with compliments both towards DMs, authors and triad members, and if you have complaints try to make them constructive. - Don't nag or make snide comment as I have seen all too often on these boards or on mailing lists (latest example: people spend a lot of time organizing a big interactive, and several people complain/nag about the fact that it did not include APL 10+). - If you run games where people have to pay their fair share for the food, don't let the DM pay. Offer them drinks, snacks and food at conventions. In fact, let the players combine their resources and buy a small present to the DMs. I did this during the last interactive where I provided each DM with a box of miniatures. A small price consider the big swag of goods I got at last RPGA convention I went to (the big conventions tend to be rather generous to their DMs). - Make sure that if at all possible the same person does not eat adventures all the time. People in my area certainly "abuse" the fact that I cannot play LG adventures at all, but I never have to eat the occasional Xen'drik adventure we play. (Abuse is of course a joke, I love running games or otherwise I would not have become a Circle Member.) - Don't be shy with complinents... I cannot say this enough, make sure the people realize they are appreciated - just don't overdo it because that might emberass people ;) As for Under Mountain, that is both a promotion game for the adventure AND more importantly the conventions in question. Remember, you only earn those rewards in convention play and not during home games. Convention organizers were complaining the RPGA was not doing enough to draw in players. It is also a high up decision. The Circle had nothing to do with it. I am not much of a fan of it, but I understand the reasoning and as long as the rewards are not too big, I am not caring too much about it. As you can see, I personally don't belief in rewarding xp and gp for eating adventures. I really doubt it works, especially compared to the problems it generates and I think there are better ways to solve the issues addressed by people. It is not something I would make a huge issue out of though if the (rest of) the Circle would want to implement it. Pieter Sleijpen RPGA Living Greyhawk Circle Member The Splintered Suns
Demoyn 07-09-07, 05:24 PM	That is 141 rounds, which means I'd have 70,500 xp and 35,250 gp from past years, with another 12,000 xp and 6,000 gp coming to me for this year. (And I'm sure I'm missing a few things in there, like a few core specials in earlier years that I ran Slot 0s of for other people going to conventions.) So what you're saying is that SEVEN YEARS worth of eating mods will net you a level 10 character? I don't think anyone would complain about that; especially not anyone that was seated at one of the tables you ate. I'd be happy to give anyone 1.3 levels a year if they ate 5 or so mods for it.
Samwise 07-10-07, 12:14 AM	So what you're saying is that SEVEN YEARS worth of eating mods will net you a level 10 character? I don't think anyone would complain about that; especially not anyone that was seated at one of the tables you ate. I'd be happy to give anyone 1.3 levels a year if they ate 5 or so mods for it. I've long since learned never to understimate what people will complain about. However, if you really want to reward people who eat adventures, Pieter posted a much better list of suggestions. I think a lot of people underestimate how much a little simple appreciation matters.
MatteBlack 07-10-07, 08:22 AM	At the most basic level, crossing rewards for DMing with boosts to characters could lead to problems. LG needs to avoid situations where someone is DMing and furthering their character could be their main focus. The DMs fully deserve rewards but, It would be important to keep enjoyment of DMing and willingness to return something back to the campaign as the central motivations of DMs.
Some_call_me_Tim 07-10-07, 11:47 AM	The way I look at it you are, in a sense, being punished for volunteering; if you were selfish and never ate a module you would be further ahead than anyone in your local group where everyone else took a fair turn. I play in both Living Arcanis and Dave Arneson's Blackmoor, both of which give rewards for eating modules. In both the rewards are less than you would have received if you actually played the module. In both campaigns I have not seen huge numbers of people fighting over who gets to eat a module because they are greedy. I have not seen the campaigns come crashing down because people have ate so many modules that they have 10th level characters without ever playing. I'm not sure how the mechanics of issuing double rewards for eating a module could be implemented, but that is definitely fair, as you give up any chance to actually play the module and earn player rewards. I think the best thing to do is for the players to reward those hard-working volunteers themselves. Make it a point to personally say thank you to all the judges and organizers. After the module is over, buy the judge lunch. The next time you see a Triad or Circle member offer to buy them a drink (Gods know they need it :P ) :pint:
amnuxoll 07-10-07, 08:27 PM	As you can see, I personally don't belief in rewarding xp and gp for eating adventures. I really doubt it works, especially compared to the problems it generates and I think there are better ways to solve the issues addressed by people. It is not something I would make a huge issue out of though if the (rest of) the Circle would want to implement it. Peter, I don't question the value of compliments. They are the main reason that I continue to write for LG. But my original arguments stand unrefuted and I don't see how what you've said is incompatible with granting xp/gp to our volunteers to compensate for modules they can't play and/or must eat. Can you elaborate on what problems that this causes? No one else on this thread has mentioned this. In fact, it's been pointed out that it is used by three other campaigns and is considered a boon. I see only win-win here. I've eaten and written my fair share of mods. I can tell you that I'd be much more willing to do that if it wasn't a total loss every time. :AMN:
control freak 07-10-07, 09:20 PM	i blieve there might be small restrictions (the char gets half of APL appropriate for the char such as a level 2 gets half apl 2, a level 3 gets half apl 4 or set amounts for each levels AR and possibly 1 TU cost or 1 TU cost per/2 or a limit of 4-7 mods that give XP/GP per year) ill compleatly agree with you theres not issue with it it would help LG it would make people WANT to eat some mods it would make people happy it would encourage DMS it would improve the overall quality of LG DMS! there for it will not happen
JJeff 07-10-07, 09:40 PM	Maybe not everyone sees the picture on how a person with a 10th level character just by DM-ing can affect the game greatly. I sure don't. He won't have access, no favours, yes, no curses or chances at dying, but still he won't even be close in terms of power levels to those that have played the modules. He wouldn't be far behind as the Open stuff are quite good, but without access to NONC stuff, he can't be a power-gamed character. Maybe those that think implementing this is a problem can tell us why? If the TU issue comes into play, why not add in a reduced TU cost for the mod also so that a guy can't have 52 TUs all year long and still gain XP/gold. I don't mind even if the xp/gold thing for eating mods is not implemented. I'm not in it for character advancment, although I wouldn't mind my character actually levelling once in a while. I still suggest a seperate set of rewards for GMs that eat mods, stuff that you can't get in Player rewards or normal rewards, items you can use and not stuff that you can only use in a game. Maybe things like a "stress ball" Beholder/Eye of Vecna thingy, a replica "Tiny Greatsword" RPGA Letter-opener or maybe a "Decanter of Endless Water" RPGA Mug?
Takei 07-11-07, 01:19 AM	At the most basic level, crossing rewards for DMing with boosts to characters could lead to problems. LG needs to avoid situations where someone is DMing and furthering their character could be their main focus. The DMs fully deserve rewards but, It would be important to keep enjoyment of DMing and willingness to return something back to the campaign as the central motivations of DMs. This is an opinion that has been mentioned by a few posters and I must admit to be completely baffled by it. Surely if someone's main focus was advancing their character they would rather play the module than eat it? APL 4 gives more xp (not to mention gp, access and favours) than they would get by eating it. The only way to earn more by eating the mod is if you only ever play APL 2. There does seem to be an attitude within LG that anything that works for other campaigns couldn't possibly work for LG. My opinion is that we should be able to learn from other campaigns instead of our continual reluctance to try new things because of the small percentage of peole that would abuse it.
gomeztoo 07-11-07, 04:03 AM	"Decanter of Endless Water" RPGA Mug? Make that a "Decanter of Endless Stout" and I'm your man ;)
Madfox11 07-11-07, 06:47 AM	Can you elaborate on what problems that this causes? No one else on this thread has mentioned this. In fact, it's been pointed out that it is used by three other campaigns and is considered a boon. I see only win-win here. People have already mentioned the potential problems behind such a ruling. The biggest issues are people running games for the wrong reasons and the fact there is absolutely no way to verify whether the rules have been followed. Granted, we assume a lot on faith already, but at least most things can be checked if the RPGA really wants to. At its core though I really dislike rewarding people IC for OOC actions. Yes, I also dislike the Undermountain rules and the extra treasure rewards handed out at some points with core specials. There does seem to be an attitude within LG that anything that works for other campaigns couldn't possibly work for LG. My opinion is that we should be able to learn from other campaigns instead of our continual reluctance to try new things because of the small percentage of peole that would abuse it. There is no such attitude among the Circle. Besides, it is no worse than people automatically assuming that because it works in one campaign it automatically works in another (or even that it achieves what it wants to in that campaign). I don't dismiss something just because I did not think of it.
LGMoses 07-11-07, 11:54 PM	once again, nething in character for people who eat modules should not be done. In fact, in thinking about the difficulty that would probably be had in tracking it, don't worry about it. I ONLY eat mods but i'm not sure it would be worth the trouble for the RPGA to track whenever someone eats one. besides, what could u ask the RPGA for. In character stuff doesn't make sense, if you're eating mods, ur probly not playing atleast if ur eating a significant enuff amount ot get a reward. More campaign cards? U can't use them, maybe loan em to players or hand em out to make friends. more minis, so u can represent ur players on their board maybe at best. Buying a box would suit you better. Want more spell templates? NO, those things are lame, I wouldn't want another 20 ft chaos hammer spell template.... So unless the volunteers running RPGA figure it would be worth it to track when EVERY SINGLE RPGA JUDGE eats a mod and spend time separating these points from the usual judging points to send an extra reward for those points that were "eaten". That just seems like a lot of work for an extra mini or something. Maybe just give some really cool prize to judges in general. What ever happened to those RPGA dice bages with the RPGA symbol again? Those looked really awesome.
MatteBlack 07-12-07, 10:24 AM	This is an opinion that has been mentioned by a few posters and I must admit to be completely baffled by it. Surely if someone's main focus was advancing their character they would rather play the module than eat it? APL 4 gives more xp (not to mention gp, access and favours) than they would get by eating it. The only way to earn more by eating the mod is if you only ever play APL 2. There does seem to be an attitude within LG that anything that works for other campaigns couldn't possibly work for LG. My opinion is that we should be able to learn from other campaigns instead of our continual reluctance to try new things because of the small percentage of peole that would abuse it. I think you are taking my comment a bit differently than I meant it. Rewards for DMs might likely draw someone to DM who maybe shouldn't if, they are beneficial to characters and can only be earned in this fashion or can be gained in a risk-free manner by DMing. You'd have to admit that if, someone is DMing in order to further their character they likely won't be doing as good a job as someone who just wants to DM or help the campaign/event/fellow players. DMing at a convention usually has some decent perks to it so, it's more the homegame DMs that are coming up the shortest in the deal. Maybe allow DMs to run mods after the fact if there is a triad member or the like at the table to disuade metagaming. This would more directly address the actual problem of loss of access to content. We trust DMs to officiate our games why not trust them to seperate player and character knowlege?
Takei 07-12-07, 11:08 AM	I think you are taking my comment a bit differently than I meant it. Rewards for DMs might likely draw someone to DM who maybe shouldn't if, they are beneficial to characters and can only be earned in this fashion or can be gained in a risk-free manner by DMing. You'd have to admit that if, someone is DMing in order to further their character they likely won't be doing as good a job as someone who just wants to DM or help the campaign/event/fellow players. I quite agree that it's better to have a DM doing it because they enjoy it rather than for some reward. Maybe I'm hopelessly naive, but I really do not believe that the small amounts we're talking about here will suddenly see the campaign swamped with DMs eating mods for the rewards. DMing at a convention usually has some decent perks to it so, it's more the homegame DMs that are coming up the shortest in the deal. Maybe allow DMs to run mods after the fact if there is a triad member or the like at the table to disuade metagaming. This would more directly address the actual problem of loss of access to content. We trust DMs to officiate our games why not trust them to seperate player and character knowlege? Do you mean allow someone who's eaten a mod to play it afterwards? That's not something I can agree with. You're comment about the smaller groups is spot on though, as it is the home groups that would benefit most from the rewards proposed.
Takei 07-12-07, 11:20 AM	People have already mentioned the potential problems behind such a ruling. The biggest issues are people running games for the wrong reasons and the fact there is absolutely no way to verify whether the rules have been followed. Granted, we assume a lot on faith already, but at least most things can be checked if the RPGA really wants to. I don't see why this would be harder to track than the current system with ARs. The DM gets an AR signed by four players; 500xp, 250gp and all access crossed out. There is no such attitude among the Circle. Besides, it is no worse than people automatically assuming that because it works in one campaign it automatically works in another (or even that it achieves what it wants to in that campaign). I don't dismiss something just because I did not think of it. Good points. However, any reluctance to at least try the suggestion out will be seen as ignoring it out of hand. Human nature I'm afraid :) At the end of the day, LG works well as it stands, and a lot of people have a lot of fun. I don't see this topic as being a campaign breaker whatever way it pans out.
MatteBlack 07-12-07, 01:30 PM	Do you mean allow someone who's eaten a mod to play it afterwards? That's not something I can agree with. I'll admit that many mods would not be as good with the surprises known but, I think there are many that could be pretty enjoyable. I have replayed mods in non-LG situations without cheesing through them and found them quite enjoyable. I just wonder if replaying mods you ran would actually cause problems? In my idea there would be some triad oversight, so presumably there wouldn't be players abusively steering the parties. It's just a possible option so, I can respect not crossing that line of allowing players with mod knowlege to play but, I don't think this case would cause problems. I guess some triad members might not welcome the added duties, though.
bitznarf 07-12-07, 01:38 PM	What about core mods then? Those can be ordered and played with absolutly no one else involved. Thus anyone could have read the mod, then go and play it without letting other players know they have read it, were such a system in place.
Takei 07-13-07, 02:50 AM	I'll admit that many mods would not be as good with the surprises known but, I think there are many that could be pretty enjoyable. I have replayed mods in non-LG situations without cheesing through them and found them quite enjoyable. Oh I quitea gree that it is possible to play mods after running them without causing much disturbance. Like you it's something I've done before in home games. My character makes no suggestions and just gets involved with overcoming problems once a course has been decided by the rest of the party. I just wonder if replaying mods you ran would actually cause problems? In my idea there would be some triad oversight, so presumably there wouldn't be players abusively steering the parties. It's just a possible option so, I can respect not crossing that line of allowing players with mod knowlege to play but, I don't think this case would cause problems. I guess some triad members might not welcome the added duties, though. In theory I don't think it would cause problems as long as the player seperated character and player knowledge of the module. In practice it's too open to abuse and I think it would be a step too far along the trusting the players route. Triad oversight would be next to impossible in a lot of regions (my home region of Naerie covers Denmark, Finland, Iceland and Sweden).
MatteBlack 07-13-07, 10:05 AM	In theory I don't think it would cause problems as long as the player seperated character and player knowledge of the module. In practice it's too open to abuse and I think it would be a step too far along the trusting the players route. Triad oversight would be next to impossible in a lot of regions (my home region of Naerie covers Denmark, Finland, Iceland and Sweden). True, I forget that I am from a pretty small dense region (Bissell). Ultimately, I'd like to see a mechanism for letting these DMs play the mods opposed to rewarding their characters for them missing them. If their is a worthwhile perk for DMs, as players, "eating" mods I would be all for it.
Puggle Halfwine 07-15-07, 04:16 AM	Lord Britt! Can you make this happen, O great one?
Madfox11 07-16-07, 06:55 AM	Good points. However, any reluctance to at least try the suggestion out will be seen as ignoring it out of hand. Human nature I'm afraid :) In a campaign the size of LG there is no trying out. If we adapt it, there is no way we can reverse it without causing some serious issues. That fact alone makes us, the Circle, hesitent to implement new stuff that effects gaming at its core. It is not a simple spell, feat or prestige class we are talking about.
qstor 07-16-07, 01:56 PM	Its simple if you want rewards for eating modules play Arcanis OR Living Kalamar not LG. Mike
Mommy was an Orc 07-16-07, 02:42 PM	In a campaign the size of LG there is no trying out. If we adapt it, there is no way we can reverse it without causing some serious issues. That fact alone makes us, the Circle, hesitent to implement new stuff that effects gaming at its core. It is not a simple spell, feat or prestige class we are talking about. Why not treat eating a mod as being the equivalent of a non-renewable action point? If you have an LG legal card that uses action points and you have points for eating a mod, you can permanently burn those points to activate the card in the listed way. There are a few nice aspects to this: When you do burn the action point, people at your table realize that you ate a mod for the good of the campaign. Warm fuzzies all around. It is easily undone - the Circle decides a particular card doesn't work the way they'd like it to, that's it. They decide it isn't working in general, then again, gone. No needing to deal with characters that leveled due to this. It is limited in effect - no characters levelling to 5th without ever playing a mod and it simply won't show up that often unless cheating is involved or you're sitting next to ex-campaign staff. The Circle could choose to make certain cards that require action points available to the campaign, but only for these special action points. No additional costs and they won't be widely used.
TetsujinOni 07-16-07, 02:56 PM	The relaxed rules for online play seem to address this concern by reducing the necessary incidence of eating adventures... Bearing in mind that I started playing last October, and proceeded to eat a good half dozen adventures (some of them regional intros, but still, play opportunities missed in year one...). And I still think: No, there's no good way to do this. Although MWaO's notion of action points for confirmably eating mods is interesting. How do you confirm it, though?
TetsujinOni 07-16-07, 03:09 PM	The way I look at it you are, in a sense, being punished for volunteering; if you were selfish and never ate a module you would be further ahead than anyone in your local group where everyone else took a fair turn. The opportunity cost of choosing to judge is what it is. I _LIKE_ judging. If I care to count up rewards, I get reward points for judging, and for judging the SECOND table, and judging the (sometimes) THIRD table, in our regional play. I see no reason whatsoever that if I can't manage to get a slot zero, that I can't go ahead and eat the adventure anyway. Viewing that choice as a punishment is pretty slanted consideration, in my never humble opinion. I play in both Living Arcanis and Dave Arneson's Blackmoor, both of which give rewards for eating modules. In both the rewards are less than you would have received if you actually played the module. In both campaigns I have not seen huge numbers of people fighting over who gets to eat a module because they are greedy. I have not seen the campaigns come crashing down because people have ate so many modules that they have 10th level characters without ever playing. Can someone explain to me how things which work in a smaller game are supposed to scale to a larger game without problems which are manageable (or even unperceived) scaling out of proportion to the player population? Last time I checked, an increase in user base or member base of a factor of 10 increases the complexity of interactions by a significant, perhaps exponential factor. For a practically-speaking low-regulation environment like this, that would appear particularly true. I'm not sure how the mechanics of issuing double rewards for eating a module could be implemented, but that is definitely fair, as you give up any chance to actually play the module and earn player rewards. How do you verify someone eating the adventure? Ordering without a play record? Doesn't account for either late con reporting, or con, gameday, and retail play organizers who will not be reading the adventure prior to handing it off to session DMs. Should we be rewarding con, retail, and gameday organizers even more? I thought the goal here was to improve the homeplay DM eating adventures scenario. I think the best thing to do is for the players to reward those hard-working volunteers themselves. Make it a point to personally say thank you to all the judges and organizers. After the module is over, buy the judge lunch. The next time you see a Triad or Circle member offer to buy them a drink (Gods know they need it :P ) :pint: THERE you have some solid thoughts. The stuff above? Not seeing the advantages and scalability you need for the biggest D&D campaign _anywhere_.
Mommy was an Orc 07-16-07, 03:11 PM	Although MWaO's notion of action points for confirmably eating mods is interesting. How do you confirm it, though? Email the writer of the mod. When a mod eater burns an action point, the DM emails the writer of the mod saying so and so burned an action point. Show an AR saying you burned it with 4-6 signatures from the players. When you burn it, the DM puts a big X through the AR. If the writer responds back, hey, that guy didn't have an action point to burn, you've got a trail that some particular person might be abusing them. Obviously, there are ways around this to a certain extent, but if my memory holds, I don't think the really powerful LG cards involve action points in the 1st place. You can also limit it to 1 action point spent per mod, too.
TetsujinOni 07-16-07, 03:51 PM	Email the writer of the mod. When a mod eater burns an action point, the DM emails the writer of the mod saying so and so burned an action point. Show an AR saying you burned it with 4-6 signatures from the players. When you burn it, the DM puts a big X through the AR. If the writer responds back, hey, that guy didn't have an action point to burn, you've got a trail that some particular person might be abusing them. Obviously, there are ways around this to a certain extent, but if my memory holds, I don't think the really powerful LG cards involve action points in the 1st place. You can also limit it to 1 action point spent per mod, too. Seems to me that adds a fairly heavy bookkeeping onus to the writers of adventures. For you to get credit for eating an adventure, I'd want to also know what event number you ate it to run, and that it was actually run, which isn't access that most users of the ordering system should have... now we're starting to talk about SERIOUS bookkeeping issues. I'd MUCH rather writers concentrated on writing new adventures that had good encounters, good plots, and fun (scary, but not THAT scary...) play.
Howie23 07-16-07, 04:33 PM	What does everyone think? This gets tossed around from time to time, and I honestly don't understand the appeal. 1) Characters gain experience and resources based upon their actions in the game, not the actions of players in the real world. 2) Volunteers are just that: volunteers. They choose to be admin, author, mod eater, etc. because they want to. Rewarding activity that people would do anyway undermines the intrinsic motivation for volunteering. 3) The absolute best way for a mod to be distributed is for the author to run it for people, who then prep it and run it for others, and down the chain. The author's vision is preserved more the closer it is to the start of the chain. Rewarding a judge for eating a mod cuts that chain. The judge no longer has the experience of having played it. It encourages running the mods unprepped, which cuts the chain at the very last link. David
Mommy was an Orc 07-16-07, 04:37 PM	Seems to me that adds a fairly heavy bookkeeping onus to the writers of adventures. For you to get credit for eating an adventure, I'd want to also know what event number you ate it to run, and that it was actually run, which isn't access that most users of the ordering system should have... now we're starting to talk about SERIOUS bookkeeping issues. One of those things which is both a feature and a bug, depending on how you look at it ;) If you're eating the mod, odds are you're doing so just as the mod gets released or close to it. You're emailing the writer after running the mod. i.e. how hard is it to fill out the feedback form at that point? Ditto for the DM saying the mod was burned. Especially if the reminder is on the feedback form. I don't think the enforcement needs to be all that great, because the level of benefit is 'look at me, I ate a mod for the campaign and get to spend 2 action points to reroll a d6 of sneak attack damage! For which I gave up a Charm of the Fortunate card!' Regardless of how serious the enforcement level is, the net benefit to the campaign should be more writers get more feedback.
TetsujinOni 07-16-07, 05:24 PM	This gets tossed around from time to time, and I honestly don't understand the appeal. 3) The absolute best way for a mod to be distributed is for the author to run it for people, who then prep it and run it for others, and down the chain. The author's vision is preserved more the closer it is to the start of the chain. Rewarding a judge for eating a mod cuts that chain. The judge no longer has the experience of having played it. It encourages running the mods unprepped, which cuts the chain at the very last link. David This is a great point. A mod eaten cold and run is a mod that is NOT going to be as much fun as a mod that's been played and/or multiple-run simulated by a judge who cares about the experience he's giving his players. I __HATE__ when I don't have time to prep enough to adequately cover any construction problems in the adventure with pre-calculated extemporization... Life happens sometimes, though. Eating either of the adventures I'm thinking about and then running it fairly cold would open up major room for flaws.
bitznarf 07-16-07, 05:28 PM	Honestly, I don't think that in game rewards are the way to go here. That being said, I don't really have a good suggestion other than to reiterate what has been said before: I think the best thing to do is for the players to reward those hard-working volunteers themselves. Make it a point to personally say thank you to all the judges and organizers. After the module is over, buy the judge lunch. The next time you see a Triad or Circle member offer to buy them a drink (Gods know they need it :P ) :pint:
Evanta 07-16-07, 09:57 PM	This is a great point. A mod eaten cold and run is a mod that is NOT going to be as much fun as a mod that's been played and/or multiple-run simulated by a judge who cares about the experience he's giving his players. I __HATE__ when I don't have time to prep enough to adequately cover any construction problems in the adventure with pre-calculated extemporization... Life happens sometimes, though. Eating either of the adventures I'm thinking about and then running it fairly cold would open up major room for flaws. Well... my 2 cents Firstly, if the author or his delegates are willing to spend the money voluntarily and fly over to sunny Singapore to run games for the DMs here so that no-one needs to eat the modules, it'll be nice. :D I hope that the LG leadership will take into consideration all the little islands of RPGA players outside of US/Europe. (Not that they don't, but the thread appeared to be mostly about the US scene) Secondly, there's a big problem right now regarding the lack of incentive to eat modules. Over here in Singapore, at least 70% (or possibly more) of RPGA games are DMed by just 1 person, JJeff. A few players will graciously offer to do re-runs, but by far and large very few are willing to eat modules. For me, I tend to play with a central group of friends. My primary concern is that if I eat modules and run games for my friends, my character will start to fall behind. So far I have only eaten 1-2 modules a year because of this concern. My friends don't want to DM because they are not able to commit the time (DM needs a lot of prep time) or they just don't like to DM. Hence we're often faced with the prospect of having a distinct lack of DMs to go around. Also there are people like me, who tend to prefer playing to DMing if given a choice. Also I'm quite sure that incentives that involve developing my character are definitely tempting if I am to be asked to DM. Furthermore, with regards to the RPGA points, GM activity points are useless to me because I run so infrequently, it's rarely possible that I can get 20pts to get anything cool. This just causes even more dis-incentive for me to run games. I imagine that many of the Singapore players are facing the same dilemma. Sure, voluntarism rewards itself. We Singaporean players all appreciate what JJeff is doing for us. But I think the problem now is that we need more selfish pricks like me :P to get off their lazy asses to be the occassional DM, especially in the start-up areas like Singapore. If there is at least SOME compensation for the time (currently IMO for the Singapore scene there isn't any for DMing), maybe more people will be more inclined to DM in RPGA on a more consistent basis. I mean, look at D&D gameday in Singapore, where the rewards for DMing > playing, there were definitely no lack of DMs on that day. I am definitely for the 450 xp / 450 gp / 1 TU cost for each module (regardless of APL) run. This is the equivalent of running a single intro mod for the character. It is a small enough reward that there will be little risk of it being abused, and doesn't screw the character in terms of XP/gp ratio. It also allows the DM to be somewhat better able to keep up with other characters in the area.
clannagh 07-16-07, 10:10 PM	Well... my 2 cents Firstly, if the author or his delegates are willing to spend the money voluntarily and fly over to sunny Singapore to run games for the DMs here so that no-one needs to eat the modules, it'll be nice. :D I hope that the LG leadership will take into consideration all the little islands of RPGA players outside of US/Europe. (Not that they don't, but the thread appeared to be mostly about the US scene) Secondly, there's a big problem right now regarding the lack of incentive to eat modules. Over here in Singapore, at least 70% (or possibly more) of RPGA games are DMed by just 1 person, JJeff. A few players will graciously offer to do re-runs, but by far and large very few are willing to eat modules. For me, I tend to play with a central group of friends. My primary concern is that if I eat modules and run games for my friends, my character will start to fall behind. So far I have only eaten 1-2 modules a year because of this concern. My friends don't want to DM because they are not able to commit the time (DM needs a lot of prep time) or they just don't like to DM. Hence we're often faced with the prospect of having a distinct lack of DMs to go around. Also there are people like me, who tend to prefer playing to DMing if given a choice. Also I'm quite sure that incentives that involve developing my character are definitely tempting if I am to be asked to DM. Furthermore, with regards to the RPGA points, GM activity points are useless to me because I run so infrequently, it's rarely possible that I can get 20pts to get anything cool. This just causes even more dis-incentive for me to run games. I imagine that many of the Singapore players are facing the same dilemma. Sure, voluntarism rewards itself. We Singaporean players all appreciate what JJeff is doing for us. But I think the problem now is that we need more selfish pricks like me :P to get off their lazy asses to be the occassional DM, especially in the start-up areas like Singapore. If there is at least SOME compensation for the time (currently IMO for the Singapore scene there isn't any for DMing), maybe more people will be more inclined to DM in RPGA on a more consistent basis. I mean, look at D&D gameday in Singapore, where the rewards for DMing > playing, there were definitely no lack of DMs on that day. I am definitely for the 450 xp / 450 gp / 1 TU cost for each module (regardless of APL) run. This is the equivalent of running a single intro mod for the character. It is a small enough reward that there will be little risk of it being abused, and doesn't screw the character in terms of XP/gp ratio. It also allows the DM to be somewhat better able to keep up with other characters in the area. Potentially you caould avoid some of the burning of mods by arranging online games.
Madfox11 07-17-07, 03:57 AM	I am definitely for the 450 xp / 450 gp / 1 TU cost for each module (regardless of APL) run. This is the equivalent of running a single intro mod for the character. It is a small enough reward that there will be little risk of it being abused, and doesn't screw the character in terms of XP/gp ratio. It also allows the DM to be somewhat better able to keep up with other characters in the area. But it doesn't solve your problem of getting behind in xp from your fellow players' PCs if you eat modules regularly.
JJeff 07-17-07, 08:29 PM	Thanks Evanta... BTW, with Wayne gone, I think I'm doing more than 70% now.... And welcome back from your honeymoon But I understand the issues the Circle has presented about the giving out of XP/Gold for adventures: Its irreversability once introduced and the potential problem tracking when a module is being eaten and when it is not. I also understand that we are volunteers and as volunteers, by definition, we are 'working' for no reward. Yes, verbal (and online) appreciation helps burnout, but a few good stuff helps also. I would still GM if I got nothing from it except a better understanding of the true plot of a story, and I won't do it for rewards and rewards only. But I'm sure a little token helps those who aren't so extremely altruistic, willing to DM but not wanting their characters to lose out, and not out to break the system. As I had posted loads a long while earlier (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=13027792&postcount=55), maybe a little token of non-game appreciation helps, like a beholder-shaped stress ball with the RPGA logo to squeeze when the players are being idiots and to toss it at their heads when they are complete idiots, a "Decanter of endless beer" mug for those Midnight Madness marathons, a "Fairy-sized Vorpal Holy Avenger" letter-opener for opening those Fed-Ex envelopes with our DM Reward cards (which we usually give to our players) or maybe a "Rules Lawyer" mini just to use in our own home games or something... I would think that is simple to implement. The cost? If WOTC can send out foam brains, why not letter openers and stress balls? And then maybe people would be happier all round. Trust me, sometimes happy GMs are the cause of good module runnings and irritated GMs cause TPKs...
TetsujinOni 07-17-07, 09:00 PM	Thanks Evanta... BTW, with Wayne gone, I think I'm doing more than 70% now.... And welcome back from your honeymoon Sounds like you get on well with your players. It occurs to me to think "perhaps your players could get together and toss you a pack of the latest Minis set once every few mods", or some other tangible thing.
JJeff 07-17-07, 10:08 PM	Sounds like you get on well with your players. It occurs to me to think "perhaps your players could get together and toss you a pack of the latest Minis set once every few mods", or some other tangible thing. Hmmm... Since Night Below is out... and the figures sure look nice.... *hint hint*.. Hehehe... But hey, no one like my suggestions of Beholder stress balls? Aw, come on now, isn't the image of them just cute....
Evanta 07-18-07, 12:20 AM	Sounds like you get on well with your players. It occurs to me to think "perhaps your players could get together and toss you a pack of the latest Minis set once every few mods", or some other tangible thing. Well, we could give him 1 box... or even 10, but it does not solve the problem. He is 1 person, running games for, uh? 20+ regular players and perhaps 20-30+ more less regular ones? He is holding on to a full time job, and runs 5-7 games a week! Short of it is, we need more DMs, and to get that we need some more incentives to rope them in.
JJeff 07-18-07, 02:12 AM	*Jeff just points at Evanta.....* Take it like a man and eat more....
Wraith235 07-18-07, 04:00 AM	I believe that a lot of this comes from frustration of Groups who have multiple DM's .... DM picks a mod with no knowledge of it and finds out there is something on the AR that he/She REALLY Wants for one of his chars just out of sheer chance for example .... I am playing a 5th lvl (3 pal 2 Rog now) char and now ... twice I have chosen mods with Item access on AR's that I wanted for my Char the mods were CORS3-06 Pits of Azak Zil and Return to Storm Tower those that have played them and have the AR's can speculate on the Items all you want but I downloaded these Adv's and then Saw the access ... and I was Quite honestly Fuming that just by chance I missed out on access to Items that I wanted for my char's .... it makes picking a mod a 100% crapshoot.... and it's extremely disheartening to find that things you want ... you cant get so I definatly understand the desire for some Kind of Compensation for Eating them sometimes you pick a mod and the Item access is a once in a lifetime type of thing (or close to it) and then its too late to do anything about it.... I think it is a nice Idea to have DM's who download these mods be able to pick 1 Item from the AR (Access / Favor) and add it to their next played AR .... especially in these Crap shoot scenerios .... or in the instance of Favoirs with Multiple Benifits (can chose from W, X,Y,Z PrC's) only being able to add part of the benifit.... I dont agree with adding XP / Gold .... Sort of a Use it or Loose it type thing ..... that would Save the Writers from giving access to 10 things they want if they could only choose 1 I think this would also help with the Crunch / Fluff debate again keep in mind this is from the prespective of a DM/player who plays Craps with mods
TetsujinOni 07-18-07, 09:43 AM	Hmmm... Since Night Below is out... and the figures sure look nice.... *hint hint*.. Hehehe... But hey, no one like my suggestions of Beholder stress balls? Aw, come on now, isn't the image of them just cute.... They do sound like a fun item, but the cost of manufacture for a decent Beholder stress ball is going to be very high per unit due to the short production run if it's being used for a special DM Reward item.
codyknotts 07-18-07, 09:44 AM	The arguements that it will "screw up" the campaign are quite frankly silly. It is a game and the goal is fun. It is not a competition. Giving a reward for eating modules will not encourage cheating, but instead discourage it. It rewards those that want to have a character to play at a convention or such with their friends. Consider what happens when you DM a group for months, everyone goes to Origins or Gencon or such. They have 5th or even 10th level characters. You want to play with yoru friends, but instead you have a 1st or 2nd level character. The result, you play with others you did not want to play with. Hence, you don't get to play with your friends EVEN at a convention. Sillness. This is not MAGIC, there is no big pro tour. It is a game for fun. Other Living games do this and it works, so the arguement that it screws up the game is again void of power. Finally, you would have a character without favors or access. Real powerful there and a danger to the campaign.
TetsujinOni 07-18-07, 09:47 AM	I believe that a lot of this comes from frustration of Groups who have multiple DM's .... DM picks a mod with no knowledge of it and finds out there is something on the AR that he/She REALLY Wants for one of his chars just out of sheer chance LGCS CY597 v 7.5 Online Play rules make this much LESS of a crapshoot. I haven't had a chance to do the online play route yet, but online game day might be a good route to reduce the rate at which you NEED to eat adventures.
MatteBlack 07-18-07, 11:55 AM	At a certain level, the fact that a DM may need to eat a module pressures other players to pick up the DMing mantle. I wonder if dropping that possibility might cause fewer players to try DMing and potentially shift the load on to the shoulders of the players who regularly DM even more. Online gaming, improved player coordiantion and better homegroup planning can make eating mods less frequent. Finding ways to allow DMs to not eat mods or at least do so less frequently might well be the better way to address the situation.
Madfox11 07-18-07, 12:19 PM	Consider what happens when you DM a group for months, everyone goes to Origins or Gencon or such. They have 5th or even 10th level characters. You want to play with yoru friends, but instead you have a 1st or 2nd level character. The result, you play with others you did not want to play with. Hence, you don't get to play with your friends EVEN at a convention. To solve this particular problem you have to grant much more than a mere 450 gp and xp. At which point it becomes a lot more problematic, since a character without favors and access is really bland if not downright unplayable. If you are really deadset on playing with your friends on a convention, you better ask your friends to play with other characters for at least a couple of games. They are friends, aren't they? At least, when I was in the same situation, I played a couple of adventures with them (and they choose to play other characters) and I played a couple of adventures with complete strangers. Heck, one of the reasons for me to even go to conventions is to meet and play with people I have never played before ;)
Evanta 07-18-07, 09:20 PM	To solve this particular problem you have to grant much more than a mere 450 gp and xp. At which point it becomes a lot more problematic, since a character without favors and access is really bland if not downright unplayable. The lag, as long as some exp is coming in, is not as bad as you make it to be. Even assuming that a DM runs 40 games for 5 PCs from level 1 up, playing at appropiate APLs, playing up and down an equal amount of time, players will be level 8, while the DM character who never saw the sun, will be level 6! But if there 2 DMs in the group, alternating between each other, it is highly likely that in most cases the DM's PCs are at the worst 2levels behind, even till retirement. No matter what the situation is, the players are able to all sit at the same table. Whereas without any EXP coming at all if a PC takes the rap to run games, this won't ever happen. Actually we do appreciate that mixing around with other D&D players is a good thing. Players have different PCs for that. However, we do want to have the feel of a consistent party who stick together fairly often too, for stuff like story arcs.