Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bitznarf 04-16-07, 04:24 PM	I'm curious what tactics folks use with their rogues when facing opponents that cannot be sneak attacked. I've heard that UMD can be greatly useful for this, however when for specifics in these other threads the answers have been rather underwhelming. As in no answer at all. So, what exactly can be done to stay effective when the largest part of your damage, sneak attack, is unavailable?
Rerednaw 04-16-07, 04:45 PM	I'm curious what tactics folks use with their rogues when facing opponents that cannot be sneak attacked. I've heard that UMD can be greatly useful for this, however when for specifics in these other threads the answers have been rather underwhelming. As in no answer at all. So, what exactly can be done to stay effective when the largest part of your damage, sneak attack, is unavailable? My experience? I do what my mage does when fighting SR high or immune to magic. I drop to support (or use SR no). Buff, give a potion to a downed character, assist or flank, (yes my squishy mage will tank). Of course I also summon things to pound on the foes... With UMD (now that wands are open) against non-crittable I'd be popping Cure Light Wounds, Color Spray, or Enlarge. Once your UMD skill gets higher switch to scrolls. Web, Summon Swarm, even a 1 round Grease can impact a fight. It rare that I cannot find something to do that helps the party. Tanglefoot bags do wonders and being a rogue you probably have a decent ranged touch attack modifier. Just a few ideas, YMMV.
Japangirl 04-16-07, 06:43 PM	In no particular order: Flank. Assist to hit or AC, whichever is more needed. Preferably from a flanking position as well. Run around looking for treasure/traps to deal with in case we have to flee. Tanglefoot bags for stuff small enough that they're useful. Stand underneath something, if it's big enough and there are two or more of them. Generally the second thing will try to hit me and then it has a 50/50 chance of hitting its buddy instead. Requires special feats though. Hit it anyways with a Sacred dagger, at least the holy damage can do a little to Undeads. Stand full defensive in front of the archer that *can* actually hurt it, so he doesn't go down from touch attacks that can't really hit me (full defensive = 26 touch AC. 30 touch if I'm also hiding inside of something big, like the incorporeal that's trying to hit. Add +1 if I use boots of speed for haste bonus). Run around in circles panicking because I can't do anything and I have no f*cking Will save to speak of.
Arvagor 04-16-07, 07:04 PM	Run around in circles panicking because I can't do anything and I have no f*cking Will save to speak of.Running around in circles usually results from having that poor Will save (confusion, anyone?)... ;) What everyone has said is pretty good advice. My rogue carries around a Heward's handy haversack full of tanglefoot bags, holy water, alchemist's fire, acid, thunderstones, and smokesticks for those ocassions where sneak attack is a no-go...
Mommy was an Orc 04-16-07, 08:12 PM	I'm curious what tactics folks use with their rogues when facing opponents that cannot be sneak attacked. I've heard that UMD can be greatly useful for this, however when for specifics in these other threads the answers have been rather underwhelming. As in no answer at all. So, what exactly can be done to stay effective when the largest part of your damage, sneak attack, is unavailable? UMD - you can use scrolls of almost anything if your UMD is high enough - silence(ready against undead casters), command undead(no save for mindless undead!), see invisibility, glitterdust are all useful 2nd level spells. Also, something a lot of people don't realize is just how poor constructs' will saves are and what being mindless does to their actions - you make a silent image, and if that's the closest target, it will mindlessly attack that silent image. Now normally, a DC of 11 isn't a good thing. But a Clay Golem only has a Will Save of +3...and it doesn't get a save until it interacts with it(i.e. wastes an attack...) I also usually buy weaponry/pick class features to cover my weaknesses - my Rogue Archer has a 16 Str(Wood Elf with Tactile Trapfinder), is going Pious Templar(WS/RWM), will eventually have 6 levels of Ranger(+4 thing with DR that's most annoying me, +2 Undead), already has a Sacred Bow(extra damage vs undead), etc... If I were playing a melee person, I'd kill for a weapon that was baned against constructs. Finally, in an universe such as LG, I don't see how people avoid taking lots of levels of Unseen Seer - easy way to pick up Grave Srike/Golem Strike/Critical Strike/False Life. Uncrittable foes troubling you? Toss an Arc of Lightning at them and see how they react. Even a Rogue 4/Wizard 1/Unseen Seer 10 can pull that off eventually...
bitznarf 04-16-07, 08:22 PM	Finally, in an universe such as LG, I don't see how people avoid taking lots of levels of Unseen Seer - easy way to pick up Grave Srike/Golem Strike/Critical Strike/False Life. Uncrittable foes troubling you? Toss an Arc of Lightning at them and see how they react. Even a Rogue 4/Wizard 1/Unseen Seer 10 can pull that off eventually... Well, for my build in particular, I am currently sitting at Rogue 1/Ranger 1/Rogue 2-5. My future progression, pre LGCS 597 was going to be Rogue 6/Shadowdancer 1/Rogue7-10 picking up Crippling Strike/Shadowdancer 2-3/Something 1 (perhaps Ranger 2). Basically trying to stack as much strength drain/damage on a target as possible. I wanted to explore what my options would be against those things which I could not do this sort of thing to.
Mommy was an Orc 04-16-07, 08:40 PM	Well, for my build in particular, I am currently sitting at Rogue 1/Ranger 1/Rogue 2-5. My future progression, pre LGCS 597 was going to be Rogue 6/Shadowdancer 1/Rogue7-10 picking up Crippling Strike/Shadowdancer 2-3/Something 1 (perhaps Ranger 2). Basically trying to stack as much strength drain/damage on a target as possible. I wanted to explore what my options would be against those things which I could not do this sort of thing to. Well, I'd make extremely sure to get Rogue 10 at 12th and pick up Savvy Rogue - then it doesn't matter if they're crit-immune against your Crippling Strike...
Genghis Cohen 04-16-07, 08:44 PM	Well, for my build in particular, I am currently sitting at Rogue 1/Ranger 1/Rogue 2-5. My future progression, pre LGCS 597 was going to be Rogue 6/Shadowdancer 1/Rogue7-10 picking up Crippling Strike/Shadowdancer 2-3/Something 1 (perhaps Ranger 2). Basically trying to stack as much strength drain/damage on a target as possible. I wanted to explore what my options would be against those things which I could not do this sort of thing to.Why the one level of Ranger at 2nd?
bitznarf 04-16-07, 08:49 PM	Why the one level of Ranger at 2nd? We are really cleric poor up here, and the ability to use a wand of CLW without fail has saved us on any number of occasions. Plus I have the ranks in survival to make Track worthwhile.
bitznarf 04-16-07, 09:16 PM	Will I get enough out of the feat with only 1 Rogue special ability? Is being able to deal strength damage to non-sneakables worth the feat? P.S. I didn't intend for this thread to be specific to my character, hence why it is out here rather than in the characters forum. But by all means, don't let me stop you. :)
Mommy was an Orc 04-16-07, 09:25 PM	Will I get enough out of the feat with only 1 Rogue special ability? Is being able to deal strength damage to non-sneakables worth the feat? P.S. I didn't intend for this thread to be specific to my character, hence why it is out here rather than in the characters forum. But by all means, don't let me stop you. :) Sure. No save, no SR if you hit 'em, plus it probably makes Rogue 13 worth it as well for the additional Rogue special. It really is true though - Unseen Seer makes a lot of these 'hmm, how do I affect non-crittable opponents' into 'hey, why do people keep pretending I'm a primary arcane caster when I'm not...'
Mommy was an Orc 04-16-07, 09:27 PM	Why the one level of Ranger at 2nd? Actually, if he's going Shadowdancer 1 and Ranger 1, he really only wants the 1 level of Ranger before 12th as otherwise he can't grab Savvy Rogue until 15th.
SgtHulka 04-16-07, 11:10 PM	Note that there are a lot of ways creatures are immune to criticals other than being undead or constructs. One of the most annoying is concealment -- darkness, obscuring mist, etc. Here's where carrying around a scroll of Daylight or Gust of Wind can be helfpul.
lunarfish 04-16-07, 11:47 PM	My own rogue usually just looks to the cleric when we fight undead - 75% of the time, it's the same 14th level Radiant Servant of Pelor right there with me (and frequently trapping me in his ring of blades, the bastard :)). Constructs are trickier, but my recent access to (and soon purchase of) of a Golembane Scarab makes them far more manageable. Just keep swinging, preferably from a flank. Favored Enemy: Constructs never hurt anyone either.
Timlagor 04-16-07, 11:51 PM	MIC will make the Unseen Seer route less valuable: there's lots of stuff in there for Sneak Attacking otherwise immune critters (assuming you can get access of course..)
Mommy was an Orc 04-16-07, 11:53 PM	MIC will make the Unseen Seer route less valuable: there's lots of stuff in there for Sneak Attacking otherwise immune critters (assuming you can get access of course..) That makes the Unseen Seer route more valuable - if you're an Unseen Seer, you can craft the stuff with the right feat(s) rather than having to buy it just when you get access.
bitznarf 04-17-07, 12:02 AM	MIC will make the Unseen Seer route less valuable: there's lots of stuff in there for Sneak Attacking otherwise immune critters (assuming you can get access of course..) Care to share what some of these items are?
Lomiat 04-17-07, 12:15 AM	Unseen Seer is pretty swank, but it lacks Disable Device, making it less than perfectly "roguey." My wizard, meanwhile, has kept Grease and Glitterdust memorized for the past 9 levels largely because they continue to affect things like constructs. Sure, a cadaver collector might beat the Will save on a DC 13 scroll of Glitterdust, and it might even beat the DC 11 Reflex save for a scroll of Grease... But it might have a heck of a time with that Balance check to move... No-SR spells are great things to UMD. Another thing people haven't yet mentioned is the Bag of Tricks, preferably Tan (I think). The critters might not do any damage, but so long as they can delay the baddie by staying in its way for a standard action's worth of time, you win. Finally, the best thing I think a rogue can do about un-crittable critters is find a way to give the party the drop on the encounter. Lunarfish's shadowdancer has been hosed a good number of times by life-sensing, blind-sensing, tremor-sensing stuff, etc., but he's also manage to scope out quite a few encounters letting the rest of the party know (pretty close) where to drop in to start fighting the bad stuff. Especially if the mod's started to run a bit long, there's not much better than taking the "auto surprise" round away from the bad guys and turning it into a surprise round kill against them. Few PC types other than rogues can make this happen.
Mommy was an Orc 04-17-07, 12:20 AM	Unseen Seer is pretty swank, but it lacks Disable Device, making it less than perfectly "roguey." With retraining, Heroism(+2 to all skill checks), and 6 skill points per level, it isn't such a big issue.
King Kashue 04-17-07, 12:29 AM	If I were playing a melee person, I'd kill for a weapon that was baned against constructs. My bear warrior has an adamantine great axe, construct bane, and favored enemy construct... Of course, if he decides to get furry, he's got a str 42, and is thus somewhat out of the "scrounging for damage" conversation... One thing a local spring attacking bard/rogue will often do is the attack to aid my (or someone else's attack). For someone with power attack, the extra to hit can be turned into twice as much damage keeping the hit percentages the same...Always useful...
Mommy was an Orc 04-17-07, 12:49 AM	One thing a local spring attacking bard/rogue will often do is the attack to aid my (or someone else's attack). For someone with power attack, the extra to hit can be turned into twice as much damage keeping the hit percentages the same...Always useful... Not particularly - to be brutal, if you're swinging 4 times a round at APL 12, he's at best adding +16 damage per round. If that Rogue doesn't have a way of beating that damage at that APL, there's something horribly wrong with his magic item selection. Even the common composite longbow, magick'd up to +3 with someone's GMW, magicked with some sort of +1 enchantment and him armed with various DR piercing arrows will make him beat that on average. He's a Bard, so he's likely contributing via song, but...
King Kashue 04-17-07, 01:38 AM	Not particularly - to be brutal, if you're swinging 4 times a round at APL 12, he's at best adding +16 damage per round. If that Rogue doesn't have a way of beating that damage at that APL, there's something horribly wrong with his magic item selection. Even the common composite longbow, magick'd up to +3 with someone's GMW, magicked with some sort of +1 enchantment and him armed with various DR piercing arrows will make him beat that on average. He's a Bard, so he's likely contributing via song, but... Yeah, the +3/+4 inspire courage is nice as well :D The tactic gets primarily used on High AC beasties for which power attack is otherwise risky math-wise. Honestly, most people don't get the math on power attack. The more damage you do naturally, the less power attack you should use. And in the vast majority of cases, power attacking for 1-3 is the statistical optimal. So, any extra you can add on to that without lowering to hit is great. It's the old question, is the Bard "responsible" for the extra 2 points of damage that the hit did, or is he responsible for all the damage, since without the +2 to hit, you would have missed? :D
Cynric 04-17-07, 06:24 AM	Um, ranger scout with swift hunter. You can skirmish agaist you favoured enemy even if they are immune to crits. I like it a lot and intend to take it wiht my archer scout guy.
Timlagor 04-17-07, 06:24 PM	Aid Other only applies to a single attack
King Kashue 04-17-07, 07:13 PM	Aid Other only applies to a single attack I never said it did anything but... And I don't think MwaO noted the spring attacking portion of the tactic... And you still haven't given Biznarf the name of any of the "lots of stuff in there for Sneak Attacking otherwise immune critters" items...
jstorrie 04-17-07, 09:17 PM	Hewards full of tanglefoots is a strong suggestion; keep some nets in there, too. For UMD'ing, I would stick to Silent Images versus mindless critters, and buffs for the party members who could do damage. A CL3 or CL5 grease wand, if you can get one, is a nice help. Finally, you can keep a whip in reserve for trying to trip/disarm things, although this is a definite last resort.
Arvagor 04-17-07, 10:10 PM	- Find a cleric friend and ask for a grave strike via imbue with spell ability (or take a level of cleric yourself) - Take a level of druid for vine strike - Take a level of Sor/Wiz for golem strike - Take the Deadly Defense feat (CS) for an extra 1d6 damage to anything when fighting defensively with finesseable weapons - Take the Savvy Rogue feat (CS), and opt for the 'Crippling Strike' rogue special ability to deal Strength damage to creatures immune to sneak attack - Find access to the rogue alternate class feature 'Disruptive Attack', from PHB2 - Keep a two-handed weapon handy, along with a belt of one mighty blow and a Bane of My Enemies rewards card, then get the hell outta Dodge after spending everything on that one attack ;)
King Kashue 04-18-07, 12:37 AM	- Find a cleric friend and ask for a grave strike via imbue with spell ability (or take a level of cleric yourself) - Take a level of druid for vine strike - Take a level of Sor/Wiz for golem strike - Take the Deadly Defense feat (CS) for an extra 1d6 damage to anything when fighting defensively with finesseable weapons - Take the Savvy Rogue feat (CS), and opt for the 'Crippling Strike' rogue special ability to deal Strength damage to creatures immune to sneak attack - Find access to the rogue alternate class feature 'Disruptive Attack', from PHB2 - Keep a two-handed weapon handy, along with a belt of one mighty blow and a Bane of My Enemies rewards card, then get the hell outta Dodge after spending everything on that one attack ;) Um, yeah...none of those are items...:P Timlagor said MIC gave "lots of stuff"...That's items...:D
Arvagor 04-18-07, 01:13 AM	Um, yeah...none of those are items...:P Timlagor said MIC gave "lots of stuff"...That's items...:DYes, but bitznarf didn't originally ask for items:[...] So, what exactly can be done to stay effective when the largest part of your damage, sneak attack, is unavailable?:P But since I'm feeling generous... - Disrupting weapons for undead (not MIC, but should be an obvious choice) - Dessicating/burst weapons for plants and elementals with water subtype - Divine wrath, ghost strike, incorporeal binding, or sacred weapons for undead - Terran, ignan, auran, or aquan weapons for various elementals - Energy aura weapons for just about anything (deals your choice of energy damage) - Demolition augment crystals for contructs, truedeath crystals for undead - Deathstrike bracers are a really good one though... 3x/day, you can sneak attack or crit constructs, elementals, oozes, plants, and/or undead
King Kashue 04-18-07, 01:35 AM	Yes, but bitznarf didn't originally ask for items::P Good thing you used the word "originally"...otherwise it'd be outright false :P Still, the comment to which you replied wasn't referring to Biznarf's question, but to these statements: MIC will make the Unseen Seer route less valuable: there's lots of stuff in there for Sneak Attacking otherwise immune critters (assuming you can get access of course..) Care to share what some of these items are? Which Timlagor still hasn't done... But since I'm feeling generous... - Disrupting weapons for undead (not MIC, but should be an obvious choice) - Dessicating/burst weapons for plants and elementals with water subtype - Divine wrath, ghost strike, incorporeal binding, or sacred weapons for undead - Terran, ignan, auran, or aquan weapons for various elementals - Energy aura weapons for just about anything (deals your choice of energy damage) - Demolition augment crystals for contructs, truedeath crystals for undead - Deathstrike bracers are a really good one though... 3x/day, you can sneak attack or crit constructs, elementals, oozes, plants, and/or undead Well, not all of those allow sneak/crit (and several aren't likely to be in the campaign for a while), but that's a good list...
Arvagor 04-18-07, 08:45 AM	Well, not all of those allow sneak/crit (and several aren't likely to be in the campaign for a while), but that's a good list...Good lords, what do you want??? For us to re-type the whole book? :ton: My main PC is a rogue. If there's one thing I and my PC have learned, it's to not count on help from others. Therefore I don't rely on the spell help I mentioned. A haversack full of alchemicals, or fighting defensively/flanking/aid another are the surest ways to help when you can't sneak attack. If you can find the deathstrike bracers (good luck with that), that's pretty much the best you're going to be able to do, IMHO, short of gaining some permanent (class?) ability to sneak attack one of the unsneakables. The various extra damage enhancements I listed are also viable alternatives (especially if you're more of a melee rogue than sneaky rogue in the first place).
bitznarf 04-18-07, 09:50 AM	Yes, but bitznarf didn't originally ask for items::PSo, what exactly can be done to stay effective when the largest part of your damage, sneak attack, is unavailable? Well, I kinda figured that 'using items' would fall under the general umbrella of 'things to do.' Good lords, what do you want??? For us to re-type the whole book? Perhaps just the items that are noteworthy? The ones that jumped off the page? (Which appears to be the list that you made on the previous page.) I've yet to actually look at the MIC in detail. I've skimmed a copy of it, but I don't own it at the moment. Thanks for the help folks :) P.S. As for the whole 'get help from others' thing, if you aren't aware, the highest level cleric PC within a 5 hour drive is 7. Imbue with gravestrike isn't going to happen any time soon. As yes, high level tables can work without much healing.
LachlarlanIII 04-18-07, 10:23 AM	Good lords, what do you want??? For us to re-type the whole book? :ton: My main PC is a rogue. If there's one thing I and my PC have learned, it's to not count on help from others. Therefore I don't rely on the spell help I mentioned. A haversack full of alchemicals, or fighting defensively/flanking/aid another are the surest ways to help when you can't sneak attack. If you can find the deathstrike bracers (good luck with that), that's pretty much the best you're going to be able to do, IMHO, short of gaining some permanent (class?) ability to sneak attack one of the unsneakables. The various extra damage enhancements I listed are also viable alternatives (especially if you're more of a melee rogue than sneaky rogue in the first place). Skullclan Hunter = Undead sneakable.
bitznarf 04-18-07, 10:43 AM	As mentioned earlier in this thread, my PC in particular doesn't have room for any extra classes in the build. I need to hit Rogue 10 by 12th to get Savvy Rogue. From there it is 2 more levels of Shadowdancer to get a shadow companion. And that last level is sure looking like Ranger 2 for TWF and I-TWF. Stabbity. That doesn't change that those sorts of options are availble for other rogue types however.
Timlagor 04-18-07, 10:59 AM	There are two reasons I didnt post the list: 1) [never mind] 2) I only read through the book once and didn't feel like hunting through it to find them again. (especially since they're all Unlisted at present and may never get into the campaign at all) 3) If I waited someone else would do it for me :D They did stand out in my mind though so I thought it was worth mentioning. "Lots" may be a little strong but there were very real options there.
Mommy was an Orc 04-18-07, 11:58 AM	Another interesting option is if you UMD and have Improved Disarm is to cast True Strike via a scroll/wand on round 1, then grab their weapon away from them with your open hand on your primary, then beat them upside the head with it on your secondary. A Rogue 10 with a +7 BAB, a 24 Dex(+7), hand(-4) has a +30 as an example.
Arvagor 04-18-07, 12:03 PM	[...] They did stand out in my mind though so I thought it was worth mentioning. "Lots" may be a little strong but there were very real options there. Heck, what I posted was just skimming through the first 60 or so pages (armor, augment crustals, and weapon enhancements), and many of the enhancements have appeared before in other sourcebooks, so its not like they haven't made it into the campaign in the past (sacred, anyone). And truthfully, the deathstrike bracers were pointed out to me by someone else. There may or may not be other goodness in the wondrous items section, but people will have to explore more on their own. I'd still say that alchemicals should be the #1 line of defense in such a situation -- they are freely available, and any decent rogue should have sufficient Dex to make the ranged touch attacks a no-brainer... (short of rolling a natural "1" :( )
Mommy was an Orc 04-18-07, 12:18 PM	My main PC is a rogue. If there's one thing I and my PC have learned, it's to not count on help from others. Therefore I don't rely on the spell help I mentioned. A haversack full of alchemicals, or fighting defensively/flanking/aid another are the surest ways to help when you can't sneak attack. Unfortunately, I think those two things are interrelated. When you're asking for help against X, if the person doesn't give you the help you need, you want to show them that if they had helped you, how much more effective you might have been. Using alchemicals reinforces the idea that they shouldn't have aided you in the first place. Aid Another reinforces the idea that you don't expect to do 4 hp of damage in a full round action, even when benefitting from a flank - adding another 5d6 of damage isn't going to help all that much. You might not get their help this time, but you might next time. Once you can get your Rogue into the position of doing about APL*3 damage without sneak attack, and they realize their aid would have added say another APL*5 hp of damage in a round, you'll get it more often.
ithardin 04-19-07, 11:33 AM	Yes, if you don't think you can hit the uncrittables (or if you think the damage you do won't get through DR, etc.) then by all means find something to do. My skills rogue has UMD and has become a battlefield medic using the groups healing wands, etc when there wasn't a dedicated healer in the group. You will also find that if you are REALLY good at something else then the less-effective in combat-ness is glossed over. The smack talk usually stops after my rogue has used his ramped up search skills to find hidden clues, used his ramped up disable device to keep everyone from dying in a particularly nasty trap, or his ramped up open lock :) If you can cast true strike and can carry a big damage weapon then that is also an option. I find my cold-iron, pit-spawned, mage-bane greatsword comes in handy when combined with a true strike.
Japangirl 04-19-07, 05:17 PM	You tend to also find that the smack talk ends if you are really good at killing sneak attackables. People stop sneering at you after you single-handedly kill something nasty while making sure its buddies have a 50% chance to hit the BBEG instead of you, your touch AC is over 25, and your AC is over 35. They also stop sneering when the wounding damage is what kills something one or two rounds earlier than it would have otherwise died. Basically, it comes down to pick something to be good at, and be good at it! Whether its combat or skills, make sure you "max out" one of them and are at least semi-competent at the other one.
bitznarf 04-19-07, 06:00 PM	Its not smack talk or sneering that I want to deal with. The folks in my area are well aware of what a well thought out rogue type can do. Its jus me wondering how I can do better myself. I don't like to feel useless in a fight is all.
MichaelAhlf 04-19-07, 06:41 PM	I gave my 10th level Rogue the Crippling Strike special ability, and added in the Savvy Rogue feat from Complete Scoundrel. That way, he can do Strength damage to anything except the Undead (because Undead Traits makes a creature immune to physical stat damage). Against the Undead? Holy Bow. Just keep firing as fast as possible (haste/rapid shot) and hope it falls over.