Rogue/Wizard Is it a good idea [Archive] - Wizards Community

Rogue/Wizard Is it a good idea [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
GreatSiron
11-27-05, 11:03 PM I am thinking about multiclassing my lvl3 rogue into a wizard. I thought it might be good because it would give him the ability to buff himself and make himself invisible. I think this will help him contribute in combat. Is this a good idea or should I just "stay the course" and keep gaining rogue lvls?

And if I do multiclass him, are there any good pretige classes for that combination.

And if I don't, how do I deal with his problem with combat?
JamesMaissen
11-28-05, 12:59 AM I am thinking about multiclassing my lvl3 rogue into a wizard. I thought it might be good because it would give him the ability to buff himself and make himself invisible. I think this will help him contribute in combat. Is this a good idea or should I just "stay the course" and keep gaining rogue lvls?

And if I do multiclass him, are there any good pretige classes for that combination.

And if I don't, how do I deal with his problem with combat?

Plan out your character. Don't take each level as they come or you will find yourself lost. Have a view for what you should be able to do then take a long look at seeing how you can achieve it.

A good deal of buffing needn't be done by yourself. Likewise at mid levels UMD starts kicking in (but you need to keep in mind what you are using or trying to use). Even if you don't go with UMD or caster levels disposables can be a reasonable purchase for you to make (regardless if you have to hand them out to someone else to use on you).

I would strongly suggest that you consider the lg character discussion board in the yahoo groups as it's a nice community whose focus is character design. But I would first take a look at your character and ask yourself how you see them. What goals do you have and where would you like him to be. They may or may not be achievable but getting an idea of what you are looking for is always a good idea.

Also you will wish to include a full summary of your character's information so as to allow those that are interested to see where you currently are and what you have to work with. Your stats, feats and skills at the very least will give people something from which to work.

-James
GreatSiron
11-28-05, 01:12 PM My character is built like this:
Rogue 3 Suel Human
Str 10
Con 10
Dex 16
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 10

Feats:
Toughness
Dodge
Weapon Finesse

I dont remember all of his skills, but I know that UMD has 4 ranks and Search, Disable device, and Open lock are all maxed.

As for what I want to acheive with him, I want him to be able to go into combat and actually be able to damage something without risking a one-hit-ko on himself (It has happened twice in the past 2 mods). I thought about a lvl or two of fighter, but his strength isn't all that hot. But I'm sick of having to just sit back and fire crossbow bolts without be able to use my sneak attack ablilty.
kenobi65
11-28-05, 01:33 PM The biggest issue, as I see it, is that, in order to get those buff spells you're thinking about (Invisibility, Bull's Strength), you'll need 3 levels in Wizard. At that point, you're a Rogue 3 / Wizard 3, but, compared to a 6th-level single-classed PC, you'll be substantially weaker.

In addition, those 3 levels of Wizard will only gain you +1 to your BAB (your BAB will be only +3 at 6th level). So, it really winds up *hampering* your ability in combat.

Also, while it's too late to go back, I have to feel like Toughness wasn't your best choice for a feat slot.

Unfortunately, deciding you want a character that can do damage in melee, and not be in danger of being dropped with one hit, probably should have been made before you put 10s in Str and Con.
Thanlok
11-28-05, 02:56 PM do whatever you want. Have fun with it and learn from it. The previous points are very valid but it is your character. Try it out, seee where you can go with it and have some fun. I find the worst characters I have made have been the greatest to play for two reasons. One, I learn so much more about the game and rules itself, and Two, you will find yourself coming up with great and inventive ways to play that character. Try it, have fun.

Thanlok of Ket
Sieylianna
11-28-05, 05:05 PM Unfortunately, deciding you want a character that can do damage in melee, and not be in danger of being dropped with one hit, probably should have been made before you put 10s in Str and Con.

A 10 Con isn't enough for any LG character, much less one that wants to get into melee. If you hadn't taken toughness, you could have dodge and mobility to be most of the way to spring attack.

About the only viable wizard option I see is Arcane Trickster.

Another possibility is to multi-class into druid. When you wild shape into an animal you'll use their better physical stats.

Ed
GreatSiron
11-28-05, 08:37 PM I actually have an 11 Con at the moment, due to a buff from a mod I'm not allowed to name due to the fact it is still active. I plan to put another point in Con when I level. Another friend told me today I'd be fine on the damage part if I took Two Weapon Fighting and used my tumble skill to avoid AOO's and get into flanking postition. He also told me I'd be better off multiclassing into fighter for more feats and a better BAB. He also told me that by 7 lvl I would have enough points in UMB to use a wand with a 50% chance of success. Is that a good idea or does anyone else have any suggestions?

P.S. I can't become a druid because I just spent good money on a mitrial chain shirt.
GreatSiron
11-29-05, 01:13 AM Well I think I've decided. I want alot of versitility, but I've decided that direct combat might not always be the best course of action. So I've decided to go ahead and multiclass into wizard, and then into arcane trickster. I figure I can stock up on buff spells (and magic missle of course) and only go into melee when I can sneak attack (which with the arcane trickster class is alot easier) So at lvl 6 i will pick up mobility and spring attack at 9.
I also plan to make a bunch of scrolls so I'm never out of spells. Thanks for the advice.
Sieylianna
11-29-05, 07:20 AM Well I think I've decided. I want alot of versitility, but I've decided that direct combat might not always be the best course of action. So I've decided to go ahead and multiclass into wizard, and then into arcane trickster. I figure I can stock up on buff spells (and magic missle of course) and only go into melee when I can sneak attack (which with the arcane trickster class is alot easier) So at lvl 6 i will pick up mobility and spring attack at 9.

With 3 levels of rogue, you want to pick up practiced spellcaster - wizard soon - like at 6th level. That puts mobility and spring attack off, but the difference in spell duration and damage is huge.

Ed
GreatSiron
11-29-05, 01:08 PM What is practiced spellcaster? Is that in the PHB or in another book?
kenobi65
11-29-05, 01:11 PM What is practiced spellcaster? Is that in the PHB or in another book?

I believe it's in Complete Arcane. If you're a multiclassed spellcaster (say, a rogue / wizard), it allows you to apply your non-caster levels (up to 4 levels, IIRC) to your caster level. It wouldn't let you get spells sooner, but it does increase your effective caster level (which bumps up your spell duration, range, damage dice, etc.)
GreatSiron
11-29-05, 01:34 PM What are it's requirements to use? Do I need certain other feats first? Or ability scores?
wagnert
11-29-05, 02:22 PM What are it's requirements to use? Do I need certain other feats first? Or ability scores?

Practised spellcaster is in both Complete Arcane and Complete Divine and are identical in both books. It gives you a maximum of 4 extra levels to your spellcasting level, but no more than your total character level. All you need is a spellcasting class and at least one level in a class other than the class you apply it to. You can take it twice, for instance, a cleric4/wizard4 can take it once at third for cleric, then at sixth for wizard. He would only have the spells of a 4th level cleric and a 4th level wizard, but his caster level for all his spells would be 8th.

I have a cleric7/rogue4/dundel1 with the practised spellcaster(cleric) feat. He has the spells of a 7th level cleric, but casts them at 11th level. As cleric, he has the Magic and Trickery domains, allowing him to use certain magical devices as if he were a 4th level wizard plus rogue gives him evasion, sneak attack, and uncanny dodge. The dungeon delver level gives him darkvision and builds on his rogue skills.
kenobi65
11-29-05, 02:25 PM What are it's requirements to use? Do I need certain other feats first? Or ability scores?

The only prerequisite is 4+ ranks in Spellcraft. Which, unfortunately, means you probably can't take it as your 3rd level feat, unless you'd already been buying ranks in Spellcraft in preparation to take levels in Wizard.
kenobi65
11-29-05, 02:27 PM You can take it twice, for instance, a cleric4/wizard4 can take it once at third for cleric, then at sixth for wizard. He would only have the spells of a 4th level cleric and a 4th level wizard, but his caster level for all his spells would be 8th.

Yup...if you're going for a Prestige Class like Mystic Theurge, taking Practiced Spellcaster twice (for both of your spellcasting classes) is pretty adviseable.
lostpike
11-30-05, 10:50 PM If you are going to take rogue wizard make sure you get the feat Dual Wand Weilder...the damage you can cause when sneak attacking is deadly. Though do note that going Rogue/wizard and not going into arcane trickster is near pointless.
GreatSiron
12-05-05, 01:58 PM You can sneak attack with a wand?

Is it just any wand or do only certain spells work and if so which ones?
StormCrow42
12-05-05, 03:21 PM You can gain sneak attack damage with any damaging spell that requires an attack roll, assuming of course that you meet the other criteria for sneak attacks (flanking with a melee touch spell, or having a flat footed opponent with a ray or orb spell).
mendahu
12-09-05, 03:32 AM My main PC is a Rogue 3/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 1, and I don't regret multiclassing one bit. The result is the most versatile, effective, and interesting PC I've ever played. This was particularly underscored last gameday when I played with a straight 9th level rogue. Because I had superior intelligence, my rogue skills (disable device, search, escape artist, open lock, use magic device) were actually better than his (even though he had 6 more rogue levels than I), and I had the advantage of casting spells as a 6th level wizard. Here's a short list of what roles this PC can satisfy:

Diplomat (14 cha and maxed out ranks in Diplomacy, synergies from bluff and sense motive)
Arcane Caster (specializing in ranged touch attacks as well as some utility spells that shut down encounters like web or slow)
Trap Rogue (I'm packing a +18 search and +17 Disable Device currently)
Healer (Cure wand and +15 Use Magic Device)
Cork (While on full Defense, I can muster an AC near 30)
Knowledge Factory (I've currently got ranks in about 8 or 9 different knowledges so I can provide the party with needed information).

I've got the added benefit of being one of the few casters who rarely uses the Concentration skill. I can alwats tumble away from danger if I need it, so I never cast defensively. I don't even have any ranks in it (but I do sport a Tunic of Steady Spellcasting in the rare occasions when I must use the skill).

Arcane Tricksters are quite amazing. My tips if you do in fact plan to go forward with it:

Spell Selection should be geared towards spells that let you use sneak attack. Don't take any damage spells that don't require a ranged touch (I haven't cast magic missile since probably my second level). Examples are: The orb spells (both lesser and normal), scorching ray, vampiric touch, ray of enfeeblement (you get extra negative energy damage if you qualify for sneak). Also to consider are spells which grant you sneak attacking conditions (Distract Assailant, Invisibility, Blink, Blindness/Deafness, Orb of Cold (doubles as a blinder and a sneak attacker).

Skills: Your strengths lie in your skills. If you've put any kind of bonus in intelligence, you'll quickly realize that rogue/wizards are unmatched in the sheer quantity of skills they get, because of their high intelligence and high amount of skills from the rogue levels. My arcane trickster has something like 100 total skills points right now. You'll want to be versatile and be able to do as many different things as possible, but don't compromise perfecting key skills like Disable Device, Search, etc. For added bonus, take Craft Wondrous Item and make yourself all the skill enhancing items you'll ever need.

Hope this helps!

-Jake Robins
Edmonton, AB
Master Corky, Gentleman of Verbobonc and Expatriate of the Duchy of Urnst
Rogue 3/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 1
JamesMaissen
12-11-05, 09:39 AM Arcane Tricksters are quite amazing. My tips if you do in fact plan to go forward with it:

Spell Selection should be geared towards spells that let you use sneak attack. Don't take any damage spells that don't require a ranged touch (I haven't cast magic missile since probably my second level). Examples are: The orb spells (both lesser and normal), scorching ray, vampiric touch, ray of enfeeblement (you get extra negative energy damage if you qualify for sneak).
..

Hope this helps!

-Jake Robins
Edmonton, AB
Master Corky, Gentleman of Verbobonc and Expatriate of the Duchy of Urnst
Rogue 3/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 1

You cannot sneak attack with a ray of enfeeblement. While it requires a hitroll, it does not do any damage. The effect it gives is a strength penalty. You can no more sneak attack with it than you can with Bestow Curse.

Now if you find and take the Black Lore of Moil metamagic feat (requires access, spell focus necromancy and 7th level caster level) then a spell so prepared would do damage and thus be able to deliver a sneak attack.

A spell like enervation is considered to do damage and the extra sneak attack damage (and other extras like point blank shot) would be as negative energy as alluded to above. Likewise spells that cast a volley of attacks only get the sneak attack on one of the attacks and not all of them (eg scorching ray).

Now advice:

Arcane Tricksters can be very good and are indeed very versitile so I'm sure they are quite fun to play. But they can also suffer from what I like to call 'cleric-god complex' or 'bad bard syndrome' which means that while they can do alot of things, they can't do everything. Pick and choose your battles in this regard: make sure you know what you do as a 'professional' and in what you are merely a 'dabbler'. DON'T confuse the two!

You don't have the skill points of a full rogue let alone the skill points to be both a rogue and a wizard in terms of skills. Sacrifices will have to be made here. Make sure you deliver trap detection and removal as that should be easy for you to do. Beyond that pick and choose what facets of rogue and wizard skills you want and what you feel you 'need'. You won't be able to afford them all by a longshot.

Even with practiced caster out there, you are not a full wizard. You can deliver some damage, but you don't have the depth that a full wizard is going to have spellwise. Consider for every damage spell you throw they could basically be throwing an empowered version.. and that's just using the spells you have available. Don't think of yourself as a full-fledged arcane and you will do fine.

It's a fine multiclass PrC. It has it's own niche and if really needed it can back up either archetype should they be missing at the table.. but it can't fully replace either let alone both, nor should it being try to do so.

James Maissen
mendahu
12-11-05, 03:50 PM You cannot sneak attack with a ray of enfeeblement. While it requires a hitroll, it does not do any damage. The effect it gives is a strength penalty. You can no more sneak attack with it than you can with Bestow Curse.

A spell like enervation is considered to do damage and the extra sneak attack damage (and other extras like point blank shot) would be as negative energy as alluded to above. Likewise spells that cast a volley of attacks only get the sneak attack on one of the attacks and not all of them (eg scorching ray).

My bad; I had confused Ray of Enfeeblement's strength penalty for actual ability damage, in which case it would qualify as a weaponlike spell. Thanks for pointing it out!

-Jake Robins
Edmonton, AB
Namarus
12-11-05, 04:49 PM I don't beleive that you can sneak attack with the blink spell.

The 20% miss chance you suffer is 'concealment'. Concealment prevents sneak attacks.
mendahu
12-11-05, 06:49 PM I don't beleive that you can sneak attack with the blink spell.

The 20% miss chance you suffer is 'concealment'. Concealment prevents sneak attacks.

If you check the spell's description, it's a 20% miss chance, not concealment. There is a difference. The miss chance is because you might time your attack wrong and fire it into the ethereal plane, not because of any blurring of the target's position. If they had wanted to put concealment, they would have just put "concealment", since that in itself denotes a 20% miss chance.

The same goes for the miss chance for attacks against you while blinking. You don't have total concealment, you have a 50% miss chance. So, you still suffer AoOs and can be sneak attacked (albeit at a 50% miss chance). I had this confirmed by a WotC rep.

-Jake Robins
Edmonton, AB
paigeoliver
01-06-06, 07:30 AM A 10 Con isn't enough for any LG character, much less one that wants to get into melee. If you hadn't taken toughness, you could have dodge and mobility to be most of the way to spring attack.

About the only viable wizard option I see is Arcane Trickster.

Another possibility is to multi-class into druid. When you wild shape into an animal you'll use their better physical stats.

Ed

I have an 8 con character and he is doing just fine. He has an 8 STR too, and isn't even a spellcaster.

Although he has also never made an attack roll, savings throw, or been damaged in any way.

Mostly he likes to "guard" the back of the party, and when ambushed outdoors he tends to run off after foes that ONLY he can see (they aren't there), and not show back up until the fight is over.

Obviously he is only a fun roleplay type character that I ONLY use at very, very strong tables. He is great with NPCs though, and has good skills.
Arvagor
01-06-06, 09:28 AM Re: the miss chance/concealment thing... The issue is clarified in the 3.0 FAQ -- which some people will therefore completely disregard (since it's not a "legal" LG resource). IMO, however, the answer is still relevant:
Miss chances that don�t rely on concealment, such as the miss chance from the blink spell, don�t prevent sneak attacks. Concealment negates sneak attacks by interfering with your ability to study the foe�s anatomy and place an attack in precisely the right place. The blink spell does not interfere with your ability to make a precise attack, although it can foil your whole attack by whisking your foe out of harm�s way before you can land a blow. Note that true strike doesn�t negate the miss chance from a blink spell.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GreatSiron 11-27-05, 11:03 PM	I am thinking about multiclassing my lvl3 rogue into a wizard. I thought it might be good because it would give him the ability to buff himself and make himself invisible. I think this will help him contribute in combat. Is this a good idea or should I just "stay the course" and keep gaining rogue lvls? And if I do multiclass him, are there any good pretige classes for that combination. And if I don't, how do I deal with his problem with combat?
JamesMaissen 11-28-05, 12:59 AM	I am thinking about multiclassing my lvl3 rogue into a wizard. I thought it might be good because it would give him the ability to buff himself and make himself invisible. I think this will help him contribute in combat. Is this a good idea or should I just "stay the course" and keep gaining rogue lvls? And if I do multiclass him, are there any good pretige classes for that combination. And if I don't, how do I deal with his problem with combat? Plan out your character. Don't take each level as they come or you will find yourself lost. Have a view for what you should be able to do then take a long look at seeing how you can achieve it. A good deal of buffing needn't be done by yourself. Likewise at mid levels UMD starts kicking in (but you need to keep in mind what you are using or trying to use). Even if you don't go with UMD or caster levels disposables can be a reasonable purchase for you to make (regardless if you have to hand them out to someone else to use on you). I would strongly suggest that you consider the lg character discussion board in the yahoo groups as it's a nice community whose focus is character design. But I would first take a look at your character and ask yourself how you see them. What goals do you have and where would you like him to be. They may or may not be achievable but getting an idea of what you are looking for is always a good idea. Also you will wish to include a full summary of your character's information so as to allow those that are interested to see where you currently are and what you have to work with. Your stats, feats and skills at the very least will give people something from which to work. -James
GreatSiron 11-28-05, 01:12 PM	My character is built like this: Rogue 3 Suel Human Str 10 Con 10 Dex 16 Int 14 Wis 14 Cha 10 Feats: Toughness Dodge Weapon Finesse I dont remember all of his skills, but I know that UMD has 4 ranks and Search, Disable device, and Open lock are all maxed. As for what I want to acheive with him, I want him to be able to go into combat and actually be able to damage something without risking a one-hit-ko on himself (It has happened twice in the past 2 mods). I thought about a lvl or two of fighter, but his strength isn't all that hot. But I'm sick of having to just sit back and fire crossbow bolts without be able to use my sneak attack ablilty.
kenobi65 11-28-05, 01:33 PM	The biggest issue, as I see it, is that, in order to get those buff spells you're thinking about (Invisibility, Bull's Strength), you'll need 3 levels in Wizard. At that point, you're a Rogue 3 / Wizard 3, but, compared to a 6th-level single-classed PC, you'll be substantially weaker. In addition, those 3 levels of Wizard will only gain you +1 to your BAB (your BAB will be only +3 at 6th level). So, it really winds up hampering your ability in combat. Also, while it's too late to go back, I have to feel like Toughness wasn't your best choice for a feat slot. Unfortunately, deciding you want a character that can do damage in melee, and not be in danger of being dropped with one hit, probably should have been made before you put 10s in Str and Con.
Thanlok 11-28-05, 02:56 PM	do whatever you want. Have fun with it and learn from it. The previous points are very valid but it is your character. Try it out, seee where you can go with it and have some fun. I find the worst characters I have made have been the greatest to play for two reasons. One, I learn so much more about the game and rules itself, and Two, you will find yourself coming up with great and inventive ways to play that character. Try it, have fun. Thanlok of Ket
Sieylianna 11-28-05, 05:05 PM	Unfortunately, deciding you want a character that can do damage in melee, and not be in danger of being dropped with one hit, probably should have been made before you put 10s in Str and Con. A 10 Con isn't enough for any LG character, much less one that wants to get into melee. If you hadn't taken toughness, you could have dodge and mobility to be most of the way to spring attack. About the only viable wizard option I see is Arcane Trickster. Another possibility is to multi-class into druid. When you wild shape into an animal you'll use their better physical stats. Ed
GreatSiron 11-28-05, 08:37 PM	I actually have an 11 Con at the moment, due to a buff from a mod I'm not allowed to name due to the fact it is still active. I plan to put another point in Con when I level. Another friend told me today I'd be fine on the damage part if I took Two Weapon Fighting and used my tumble skill to avoid AOO's and get into flanking postition. He also told me I'd be better off multiclassing into fighter for more feats and a better BAB. He also told me that by 7 lvl I would have enough points in UMB to use a wand with a 50% chance of success. Is that a good idea or does anyone else have any suggestions? P.S. I can't become a druid because I just spent good money on a mitrial chain shirt.
GreatSiron 11-29-05, 01:13 AM	Well I think I've decided. I want alot of versitility, but I've decided that direct combat might not always be the best course of action. So I've decided to go ahead and multiclass into wizard, and then into arcane trickster. I figure I can stock up on buff spells (and magic missle of course) and only go into melee when I can sneak attack (which with the arcane trickster class is alot easier) So at lvl 6 i will pick up mobility and spring attack at 9. I also plan to make a bunch of scrolls so I'm never out of spells. Thanks for the advice.
Sieylianna 11-29-05, 07:20 AM	Well I think I've decided. I want alot of versitility, but I've decided that direct combat might not always be the best course of action. So I've decided to go ahead and multiclass into wizard, and then into arcane trickster. I figure I can stock up on buff spells (and magic missle of course) and only go into melee when I can sneak attack (which with the arcane trickster class is alot easier) So at lvl 6 i will pick up mobility and spring attack at 9. With 3 levels of rogue, you want to pick up practiced spellcaster - wizard soon - like at 6th level. That puts mobility and spring attack off, but the difference in spell duration and damage is huge. Ed
GreatSiron 11-29-05, 01:08 PM	What is practiced spellcaster? Is that in the PHB or in another book?
kenobi65 11-29-05, 01:11 PM	What is practiced spellcaster? Is that in the PHB or in another book? I believe it's in Complete Arcane. If you're a multiclassed spellcaster (say, a rogue / wizard), it allows you to apply your non-caster levels (up to 4 levels, IIRC) to your caster level. It wouldn't let you get spells sooner, but it does increase your effective caster level (which bumps up your spell duration, range, damage dice, etc.)
GreatSiron 11-29-05, 01:34 PM	What are it's requirements to use? Do I need certain other feats first? Or ability scores?
wagnert 11-29-05, 02:22 PM	What are it's requirements to use? Do I need certain other feats first? Or ability scores? Practised spellcaster is in both Complete Arcane and Complete Divine and are identical in both books. It gives you a maximum of 4 extra levels to your spellcasting level, but no more than your total character level. All you need is a spellcasting class and at least one level in a class other than the class you apply it to. You can take it twice, for instance, a cleric4/wizard4 can take it once at third for cleric, then at sixth for wizard. He would only have the spells of a 4th level cleric and a 4th level wizard, but his caster level for all his spells would be 8th. I have a cleric7/rogue4/dundel1 with the practised spellcaster(cleric) feat. He has the spells of a 7th level cleric, but casts them at 11th level. As cleric, he has the Magic and Trickery domains, allowing him to use certain magical devices as if he were a 4th level wizard plus rogue gives him evasion, sneak attack, and uncanny dodge. The dungeon delver level gives him darkvision and builds on his rogue skills.
kenobi65 11-29-05, 02:25 PM	What are it's requirements to use? Do I need certain other feats first? Or ability scores? The only prerequisite is 4+ ranks in Spellcraft. Which, unfortunately, means you probably can't take it as your 3rd level feat, unless you'd already been buying ranks in Spellcraft in preparation to take levels in Wizard.
kenobi65 11-29-05, 02:27 PM	You can take it twice, for instance, a cleric4/wizard4 can take it once at third for cleric, then at sixth for wizard. He would only have the spells of a 4th level cleric and a 4th level wizard, but his caster level for all his spells would be 8th. Yup...if you're going for a Prestige Class like Mystic Theurge, taking Practiced Spellcaster twice (for both of your spellcasting classes) is pretty adviseable.
lostpike 11-30-05, 10:50 PM	If you are going to take rogue wizard make sure you get the feat Dual Wand Weilder...the damage you can cause when sneak attacking is deadly. Though do note that going Rogue/wizard and not going into arcane trickster is near pointless.
GreatSiron 12-05-05, 01:58 PM	You can sneak attack with a wand? Is it just any wand or do only certain spells work and if so which ones?
StormCrow42 12-05-05, 03:21 PM	You can gain sneak attack damage with any damaging spell that requires an attack roll, assuming of course that you meet the other criteria for sneak attacks (flanking with a melee touch spell, or having a flat footed opponent with a ray or orb spell).
mendahu 12-09-05, 03:32 AM	My main PC is a Rogue 3/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 1, and I don't regret multiclassing one bit. The result is the most versatile, effective, and interesting PC I've ever played. This was particularly underscored last gameday when I played with a straight 9th level rogue. Because I had superior intelligence, my rogue skills (disable device, search, escape artist, open lock, use magic device) were actually better than his (even though he had 6 more rogue levels than I), and I had the advantage of casting spells as a 6th level wizard. Here's a short list of what roles this PC can satisfy: Diplomat (14 cha and maxed out ranks in Diplomacy, synergies from bluff and sense motive) Arcane Caster (specializing in ranged touch attacks as well as some utility spells that shut down encounters like web or slow) Trap Rogue (I'm packing a +18 search and +17 Disable Device currently) Healer (Cure wand and +15 Use Magic Device) Cork (While on full Defense, I can muster an AC near 30) Knowledge Factory (I've currently got ranks in about 8 or 9 different knowledges so I can provide the party with needed information). I've got the added benefit of being one of the few casters who rarely uses the Concentration skill. I can alwats tumble away from danger if I need it, so I never cast defensively. I don't even have any ranks in it (but I do sport a Tunic of Steady Spellcasting in the rare occasions when I must use the skill). Arcane Tricksters are quite amazing. My tips if you do in fact plan to go forward with it: Spell Selection should be geared towards spells that let you use sneak attack. Don't take any damage spells that don't require a ranged touch (I haven't cast magic missile since probably my second level). Examples are: The orb spells (both lesser and normal), scorching ray, vampiric touch, ray of enfeeblement (you get extra negative energy damage if you qualify for sneak). Also to consider are spells which grant you sneak attacking conditions (Distract Assailant, Invisibility, Blink, Blindness/Deafness, Orb of Cold (doubles as a blinder and a sneak attacker). Skills: Your strengths lie in your skills. If you've put any kind of bonus in intelligence, you'll quickly realize that rogue/wizards are unmatched in the sheer quantity of skills they get, because of their high intelligence and high amount of skills from the rogue levels. My arcane trickster has something like 100 total skills points right now. You'll want to be versatile and be able to do as many different things as possible, but don't compromise perfecting key skills like Disable Device, Search, etc. For added bonus, take Craft Wondrous Item and make yourself all the skill enhancing items you'll ever need. Hope this helps! -Jake Robins Edmonton, AB Master Corky, Gentleman of Verbobonc and Expatriate of the Duchy of Urnst Rogue 3/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 1
JamesMaissen 12-11-05, 09:39 AM	Arcane Tricksters are quite amazing. My tips if you do in fact plan to go forward with it: Spell Selection should be geared towards spells that let you use sneak attack. Don't take any damage spells that don't require a ranged touch (I haven't cast magic missile since probably my second level). Examples are: The orb spells (both lesser and normal), scorching ray, vampiric touch, ray of enfeeblement (you get extra negative energy damage if you qualify for sneak). .. Hope this helps! -Jake Robins Edmonton, AB Master Corky, Gentleman of Verbobonc and Expatriate of the Duchy of Urnst Rogue 3/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 1 You cannot sneak attack with a ray of enfeeblement. While it requires a hitroll, it does not do any damage. The effect it gives is a strength penalty. You can no more sneak attack with it than you can with Bestow Curse. Now if you find and take the Black Lore of Moil metamagic feat (requires access, spell focus necromancy and 7th level caster level) then a spell so prepared would do damage and thus be able to deliver a sneak attack. A spell like enervation is considered to do damage and the extra sneak attack damage (and other extras like point blank shot) would be as negative energy as alluded to above. Likewise spells that cast a volley of attacks only get the sneak attack on one of the attacks and not all of them (eg scorching ray). Now advice: Arcane Tricksters can be very good and are indeed very versitile so I'm sure they are quite fun to play. But they can also suffer from what I like to call 'cleric-god complex' or 'bad bard syndrome' which means that while they can do alot of things, they can't do everything. Pick and choose your battles in this regard: make sure you know what you do as a 'professional' and in what you are merely a 'dabbler'. DON'T confuse the two! You don't have the skill points of a full rogue let alone the skill points to be both a rogue and a wizard in terms of skills. Sacrifices will have to be made here. Make sure you deliver trap detection and removal as that should be easy for you to do. Beyond that pick and choose what facets of rogue and wizard skills you want and what you feel you 'need'. You won't be able to afford them all by a longshot. Even with practiced caster out there, you are not a full wizard. You can deliver some damage, but you don't have the depth that a full wizard is going to have spellwise. Consider for every damage spell you throw they could basically be throwing an empowered version.. and that's just using the spells you have available. Don't think of yourself as a full-fledged arcane and you will do fine. It's a fine multiclass PrC. It has it's own niche and if really needed it can back up either archetype should they be missing at the table.. but it can't fully replace either let alone both, nor should it being try to do so. James Maissen
mendahu 12-11-05, 03:50 PM	You cannot sneak attack with a ray of enfeeblement. While it requires a hitroll, it does not do any damage. The effect it gives is a strength penalty. You can no more sneak attack with it than you can with Bestow Curse. A spell like enervation is considered to do damage and the extra sneak attack damage (and other extras like point blank shot) would be as negative energy as alluded to above. Likewise spells that cast a volley of attacks only get the sneak attack on one of the attacks and not all of them (eg scorching ray). My bad; I had confused Ray of Enfeeblement's strength penalty for actual ability damage, in which case it would qualify as a weaponlike spell. Thanks for pointing it out! -Jake Robins Edmonton, AB
Namarus 12-11-05, 04:49 PM	I don't beleive that you can sneak attack with the blink spell. The 20% miss chance you suffer is 'concealment'. Concealment prevents sneak attacks.
mendahu 12-11-05, 06:49 PM	I don't beleive that you can sneak attack with the blink spell. The 20% miss chance you suffer is 'concealment'. Concealment prevents sneak attacks. If you check the spell's description, it's a 20% miss chance, not concealment. There is a difference. The miss chance is because you might time your attack wrong and fire it into the ethereal plane, not because of any blurring of the target's position. If they had wanted to put concealment, they would have just put "concealment", since that in itself denotes a 20% miss chance. The same goes for the miss chance for attacks against you while blinking. You don't have total concealment, you have a 50% miss chance. So, you still suffer AoOs and can be sneak attacked (albeit at a 50% miss chance). I had this confirmed by a WotC rep. -Jake Robins Edmonton, AB
paigeoliver 01-06-06, 07:30 AM	A 10 Con isn't enough for any LG character, much less one that wants to get into melee. If you hadn't taken toughness, you could have dodge and mobility to be most of the way to spring attack. About the only viable wizard option I see is Arcane Trickster. Another possibility is to multi-class into druid. When you wild shape into an animal you'll use their better physical stats. Ed I have an 8 con character and he is doing just fine. He has an 8 STR too, and isn't even a spellcaster. Although he has also never made an attack roll, savings throw, or been damaged in any way. Mostly he likes to "guard" the back of the party, and when ambushed outdoors he tends to run off after foes that ONLY he can see (they aren't there), and not show back up until the fight is over. Obviously he is only a fun roleplay type character that I ONLY use at very, very strong tables. He is great with NPCs though, and has good skills.
Arvagor 01-06-06, 09:28 AM	Re: the miss chance/concealment thing... The issue is clarified in the 3.0 FAQ -- which some people will therefore completely disregard (since it's not a "legal" LG resource). IMO, however, the answer is still relevant: Miss chances that don�t rely on concealment, such as the miss chance from the blink spell, don�t prevent sneak attacks. Concealment negates sneak attacks by interfering with your ability to study the foe�s anatomy and place an attack in precisely the right place. The blink spell does not interfere with your ability to make a precise attack, although it can foil your whole attack by whisking your foe out of harm�s way before you can land a blow. Note that true strike doesn�t negate the miss chance from a blink spell.