rules for MW instruments from Complete Adventurer [Archive] - Wizards Community

rules for MW instruments from Complete Adventurer [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
LGMoses
12-13-06, 02:31 PM Does LG support the rules for using specific MW instruments from Complete Adventurer?
Mommy was an Orc
12-13-06, 02:39 PM Does LG support the rules for using specific MW instruments from Complete Adventurer?

Only if you get access...
LGMoses
12-13-06, 03:17 PM Access to the effect? The PHB lists the prices of all MW instruments so they're core or whatever. Its just the added effects are in Complete Adventurer. It just gives whatever instrument you choose some added description about how say a set of drums are different from a harp.
Mommy was an Orc
12-13-06, 03:26 PM Access to the effect? The PHB lists the prices of all MW instruments so they're core or whatever. Its just the added effects are in Complete Adventurer. It just gives whatever instrument you choose some added description about how say a set of drums are different from a harp.

You have access to the MW instruments, you need special training to use them in the way described in Complete Adventurer

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg/lgif/20060119a
LGMoses
12-13-06, 03:31 PM wow, thanks. Thats an acceptable reason why. I just hope I can find access sometime. Thanks for your help.
Simpi
12-13-06, 03:51 PM wow, thanks. Thats an acceptable reason why. I just hope I can find access sometime. Thanks for your help.

Check your local meta-organisations.

Sampo Haarlaa
Naerie Triad
LGMoses
12-13-06, 03:58 PM I found a meta-org that did it. Joining is the problem. It requires yearly travel to an event and I doubt I'll have time to attend such an event unless its pretty close.
kenobi65
12-13-06, 04:16 PM I found a meta-org that did it. Joining is the problem. It requires yearly travel to an event and I doubt I'll have time to attend such an event unless its pretty close.

The third tier of the Verbobonc MO "Riverwalk Society" grants it. While your PC would need to be a Verbobonc resident, there's no specific requirements to play any Verbobonc modules.

One catch is that you have to spend an Influence Point from a Verbobonc noble or benefactor to join (in other words, you have to have a sponsor)...and you probably can't get that without playing one or more Verbobonc modules.

The other catch is that you need 12 ranks in Perform to join the third tier...which means you wouldn't be eligible until 9th level.
LGMoses
12-13-06, 04:28 PM The Conservatory of Arts meta-org in my meta-region the Yeomanry gives it. The problems are: 1. I have to be a member of the University of Loftwick for a year and then become an alumnus. Thats fine. I'm not high enuff level for nething yet. I'm level 1 with this character haven't played nething with him, I'm designing him cuz I don't get a chance to play often and bards are always handy :D 2. The big problem is, from what I've read on the yahoo group, you have to attend one of four yearly festivals and currently these festivals don't exist! So in the meantime that meta-org is SoL.
Haro
12-13-06, 05:47 PM One thing that I'd like clarified is the use of the instruments in combat. Is it to be assumed all instruments require the use of two hands? Can you take your hands off a lute/drum/whatever and wield a weapon without dropping it on the ground (think guitar strap). If so, what kind of action is it? Free or move action?

Fritz, my tripping marshal/bard wants to use a masterwork drum to inspire courage (oh, the flavour!) and then grab his guisarme and make people fall down. How does this mechanically work in combat?

Thanks in advance,
Joe
LGMoses
12-13-06, 09:58 PM that sounds kind of pushing it. Think about how YOU would do it? You think you could play the bongos and then pull out a polearm on somebody? I wouldn't think so man.
kenobi65
12-13-06, 10:06 PM Can you take your hands off a lute/drum/whatever and wield a weapon without dropping it on the ground (think guitar strap). If so, what kind of action is it? Free or move action?

It'd be a free action to drop the instrument (most DMs will probably allow you to say you have it on a strap, so it doesn't hit the ground, but you might get some table variation on that, because "instrument strap" isn't a piece of standard equipment), and then a move action to draw the weapon, unless you have Quick Draw.

Regardless of if it's on a strap or not, it'd be a move action to grab the instrument once more (and Quick Draw likely wouldn't help you there, because the instrument isn't a weapon).
LGMoses
12-13-06, 10:40 PM : Regardless of if it's on a strap or not, it'd be a move action to grab the instrument once more (and Quick Draw likely wouldn't help you there, because the instrument isn't a weapon).

Its an improvised weapon.... :rolleyes:
Haro
12-13-06, 10:47 PM It'd be a free action to drop the instrument (most DMs will probably allow you to say you have it on a strap, so it doesn't hit the ground, but you might get some table variation on that, because "instrument strap" isn't a piece of standard equipment), and then a move action to draw the weapon, unless you have Quick Draw.

Regardless of if it's on a strap or not, it'd be a move action to grab the instrument once more (and Quick Draw likely wouldn't help you there, because the instrument isn't a weapon).

That's how I view it. I don't really know how big a masterwork drum would be, whether marching band-size or portable, playing the bongo-size. Since a drum would pretty much have to be strapped to you to be portable, I'd thought 'instrument strap' would be part of the actual instrument itself and not a separate item.

I don't want to get to close to the 'reality vs RAW' argument here, so your explanation seems most plausible. This may be something for the sage to clarify as the issue just isn't addressed in the books. Certainly, a flute or fiddle in this instance would be quite a different kettle of fish.

Joe
LGMoses
12-13-06, 10:48 PM i would also think instruments like that would come with a strap.
kenobi65
12-13-06, 11:49 PM i would also think instruments like that would come with a strap.

You might think, and I probably wouldn't disagree with you...but just be forewarned that some DMs are more literal, and unless the item description specifically says, "comes with a strap", they aren't going to let you assume as such. Hence, the ever-dreaded "expect table variation" caveat.
LGMoses
12-13-06, 11:52 PM kenobi is correct. The greatest strength of dnd is also its greatest weakness.... people have differing opinions.:eek:
kenobi65
12-13-06, 11:54 PM kenobi is correct.

Gonna frame that. ;)
Madfox11
12-14-06, 04:35 AM :

Its an improvised weapon.... :rolleyes:

If you use that drum or guitare to bash it on somebodies head I am going to give you that Quick Draw feat just for the image. It would ruin your instrument though ;) The fact is that it is much easier to use that guitare as a weapon than to properly wield it for playing.
LGMoses
12-14-06, 09:37 AM yes, I shall create a fighter themed after that old cartoon with the donkey, el kabong
The_Jester
12-16-06, 11:57 AM No meta-orgs in my region offer the damn masterwork instrumets. :(

Has anyone ever seen them offered on an AR? Ever? Anywhere?
Is it possible?
kenobi65
12-16-06, 04:34 PM No meta-orgs in my region offer the damn masterwork instrumets. :(

Has anyone ever seen them offered on an AR? Ever? Anywhere?
Is it possible?

Just to be clear...it isn't the masterwork instruments themselves that are limited; it's the special training to be able to use them as per the rules in Complete Adventurer.
The_Jester
12-16-06, 05:15 PM Just to be clear...it isn't the masterwork instruments themselves that are limited; it's the special training to be able to use them as per the rules in Complete Adventurer.

No, it's the rules.
The Dispel Confusion says to "think of it as specialized training" as an in-game justification for the policy of needing documentation for non-Core rules.

I'm saying it is just as possible for an AR to opening up the instruments/training. I've seen ARs offer up membersip to organizations (being a teacher in Greyhawk springs to mind) so it would be just as possible to meet some bardic college and unlock access to the instruments/training.
I'm just asking if anyone did it.
kenobi65
12-16-06, 05:38 PM No, it's the rules.
The Dispel Confusion says to "think of it as specialized training" as an in-game justification for the policy of needing documentation for non-Core rules.

I'm saying it is just as possible for an AR to opening up the instruments/training. I've seen ARs offer up membersip to organizations (being a teacher in Greyhawk springs to mind) so it would be just as possible to meet some bardic college and unlock access to the instruments/training.
I'm just asking if anyone did it.

Your original post said:

No meta-orgs in my region offer the damn masterwork instrumets.

Has anyone ever seen them offered on an AR? Ever? Anywhere?

You can buy the instruments without problem...they're right in the Equipment chapter of the PHB. You do not need access to buy masterwork musical instruments. It's the training, which would give you the special bonuses as per Complete Adventurer, that you need access to.

Without that special training, a masterwork instrument still gives you +2 on Perform checks.
LGMoses
12-16-06, 05:56 PM Yes, listen to kenobi. Anyone can buy MW instruments if they can afford them. I have one for my bard at lvl 1 as I've got his equipment set up now. What has to be unlocked is the special effects that are listed for separate instruments in Complete Adventurer. For instance, with a MW harp as per the Complete Adventurer rules, you can effect one extra person with your fascinate and suggestion bardic music ability. With Drums, they get a +1 on saves vs. charm and fear as morale bonuses, this increases to a +2 if you have 5 ranks in perform.

Here is the best part, it also tells you certain instruments you can cast spells while using the bardic music as long as they don't have somatic components, a harp for instance.
Frumpkis
12-19-06, 07:53 AM Yeah, I've seen access through ARs (forgot whether it was regional/meta or Core though).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LGMoses 12-13-06, 02:31 PM	Does LG support the rules for using specific MW instruments from Complete Adventurer?
Mommy was an Orc 12-13-06, 02:39 PM	Does LG support the rules for using specific MW instruments from Complete Adventurer? Only if you get access...
LGMoses 12-13-06, 03:17 PM	Access to the effect? The PHB lists the prices of all MW instruments so they're core or whatever. Its just the added effects are in Complete Adventurer. It just gives whatever instrument you choose some added description about how say a set of drums are different from a harp.
Mommy was an Orc 12-13-06, 03:26 PM	Access to the effect? The PHB lists the prices of all MW instruments so they're core or whatever. Its just the added effects are in Complete Adventurer. It just gives whatever instrument you choose some added description about how say a set of drums are different from a harp. You have access to the MW instruments, you need special training to use them in the way described in Complete Adventurer http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg/lgif/20060119a
LGMoses 12-13-06, 03:31 PM	wow, thanks. Thats an acceptable reason why. I just hope I can find access sometime. Thanks for your help.
Simpi 12-13-06, 03:51 PM	wow, thanks. Thats an acceptable reason why. I just hope I can find access sometime. Thanks for your help. Check your local meta-organisations. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
LGMoses 12-13-06, 03:58 PM	I found a meta-org that did it. Joining is the problem. It requires yearly travel to an event and I doubt I'll have time to attend such an event unless its pretty close.
kenobi65 12-13-06, 04:16 PM	I found a meta-org that did it. Joining is the problem. It requires yearly travel to an event and I doubt I'll have time to attend such an event unless its pretty close. The third tier of the Verbobonc MO "Riverwalk Society" grants it. While your PC would need to be a Verbobonc resident, there's no specific requirements to play any Verbobonc modules. One catch is that you have to spend an Influence Point from a Verbobonc noble or benefactor to join (in other words, you have to have a sponsor)...and you probably can't get that without playing one or more Verbobonc modules. The other catch is that you need 12 ranks in Perform to join the third tier...which means you wouldn't be eligible until 9th level.
LGMoses 12-13-06, 04:28 PM	The Conservatory of Arts meta-org in my meta-region the Yeomanry gives it. The problems are: 1. I have to be a member of the University of Loftwick for a year and then become an alumnus. Thats fine. I'm not high enuff level for nething yet. I'm level 1 with this character haven't played nething with him, I'm designing him cuz I don't get a chance to play often and bards are always handy :D 2. The big problem is, from what I've read on the yahoo group, you have to attend one of four yearly festivals and currently these festivals don't exist! So in the meantime that meta-org is SoL.
Haro 12-13-06, 05:47 PM	One thing that I'd like clarified is the use of the instruments in combat. Is it to be assumed all instruments require the use of two hands? Can you take your hands off a lute/drum/whatever and wield a weapon without dropping it on the ground (think guitar strap). If so, what kind of action is it? Free or move action? Fritz, my tripping marshal/bard wants to use a masterwork drum to inspire courage (oh, the flavour!) and then grab his guisarme and make people fall down. How does this mechanically work in combat? Thanks in advance, Joe
LGMoses 12-13-06, 09:58 PM	that sounds kind of pushing it. Think about how YOU would do it? You think you could play the bongos and then pull out a polearm on somebody? I wouldn't think so man.
kenobi65 12-13-06, 10:06 PM	Can you take your hands off a lute/drum/whatever and wield a weapon without dropping it on the ground (think guitar strap). If so, what kind of action is it? Free or move action? It'd be a free action to drop the instrument (most DMs will probably allow you to say you have it on a strap, so it doesn't hit the ground, but you might get some table variation on that, because "instrument strap" isn't a piece of standard equipment), and then a move action to draw the weapon, unless you have Quick Draw. Regardless of if it's on a strap or not, it'd be a move action to grab the instrument once more (and Quick Draw likely wouldn't help you there, because the instrument isn't a weapon).
LGMoses 12-13-06, 10:40 PM	: Regardless of if it's on a strap or not, it'd be a move action to grab the instrument once more (and Quick Draw likely wouldn't help you there, because the instrument isn't a weapon). Its an improvised weapon.... :rolleyes:
Haro 12-13-06, 10:47 PM	It'd be a free action to drop the instrument (most DMs will probably allow you to say you have it on a strap, so it doesn't hit the ground, but you might get some table variation on that, because "instrument strap" isn't a piece of standard equipment), and then a move action to draw the weapon, unless you have Quick Draw. Regardless of if it's on a strap or not, it'd be a move action to grab the instrument once more (and Quick Draw likely wouldn't help you there, because the instrument isn't a weapon). That's how I view it. I don't really know how big a masterwork drum would be, whether marching band-size or portable, playing the bongo-size. Since a drum would pretty much have to be strapped to you to be portable, I'd thought 'instrument strap' would be part of the actual instrument itself and not a separate item. I don't want to get to close to the 'reality vs RAW' argument here, so your explanation seems most plausible. This may be something for the sage to clarify as the issue just isn't addressed in the books. Certainly, a flute or fiddle in this instance would be quite a different kettle of fish. Joe
LGMoses 12-13-06, 10:48 PM	i would also think instruments like that would come with a strap.
kenobi65 12-13-06, 11:49 PM	i would also think instruments like that would come with a strap. You might think, and I probably wouldn't disagree with you...but just be forewarned that some DMs are more literal, and unless the item description specifically says, "comes with a strap", they aren't going to let you assume as such. Hence, the ever-dreaded "expect table variation" caveat.
LGMoses 12-13-06, 11:52 PM	kenobi is correct. The greatest strength of dnd is also its greatest weakness.... people have differing opinions.:eek:
kenobi65 12-13-06, 11:54 PM	kenobi is correct. Gonna frame that. ;)
Madfox11 12-14-06, 04:35 AM	: Its an improvised weapon.... :rolleyes: If you use that drum or guitare to bash it on somebodies head I am going to give you that Quick Draw feat just for the image. It would ruin your instrument though ;) The fact is that it is much easier to use that guitare as a weapon than to properly wield it for playing.
LGMoses 12-14-06, 09:37 AM	yes, I shall create a fighter themed after that old cartoon with the donkey, el kabong
The_Jester 12-16-06, 11:57 AM	No meta-orgs in my region offer the damn masterwork instrumets. :( Has anyone ever seen them offered on an AR? Ever? Anywhere? Is it possible?
kenobi65 12-16-06, 04:34 PM	No meta-orgs in my region offer the damn masterwork instrumets. :( Has anyone ever seen them offered on an AR? Ever? Anywhere? Is it possible? Just to be clear...it isn't the masterwork instruments themselves that are limited; it's the special training to be able to use them as per the rules in Complete Adventurer.
The_Jester 12-16-06, 05:15 PM	Just to be clear...it isn't the masterwork instruments themselves that are limited; it's the special training to be able to use them as per the rules in Complete Adventurer. No, it's the rules. The Dispel Confusion says to "think of it as specialized training" as an in-game justification for the policy of needing documentation for non-Core rules. I'm saying it is just as possible for an AR to opening up the instruments/training. I've seen ARs offer up membersip to organizations (being a teacher in Greyhawk springs to mind) so it would be just as possible to meet some bardic college and unlock access to the instruments/training. I'm just asking if anyone did it.
kenobi65 12-16-06, 05:38 PM	No, it's the rules. The Dispel Confusion says to "think of it as specialized training" as an in-game justification for the policy of needing documentation for non-Core rules. I'm saying it is just as possible for an AR to opening up the instruments/training. I've seen ARs offer up membersip to organizations (being a teacher in Greyhawk springs to mind) so it would be just as possible to meet some bardic college and unlock access to the instruments/training. I'm just asking if anyone did it. Your original post said: No meta-orgs in my region offer the damn masterwork instrumets. Has anyone ever seen them offered on an AR? Ever? Anywhere? You can buy the instruments without problem...they're right in the Equipment chapter of the PHB. You do not need access to buy masterwork musical instruments. It's the training, which would give you the special bonuses as per Complete Adventurer, that you need access to. Without that special training, a masterwork instrument still gives you +2 on Perform checks.
LGMoses 12-16-06, 05:56 PM	Yes, listen to kenobi. Anyone can buy MW instruments if they can afford them. I have one for my bard at lvl 1 as I've got his equipment set up now. What has to be unlocked is the special effects that are listed for separate instruments in Complete Adventurer. For instance, with a MW harp as per the Complete Adventurer rules, you can effect one extra person with your fascinate and suggestion bardic music ability. With Drums, they get a +1 on saves vs. charm and fear as morale bonuses, this increases to a +2 if you have 5 ranks in perform. Here is the best part, it also tells you certain instruments you can cast spells while using the bardic music as long as they don't have somatic components, a harp for instance.
Frumpkis 12-19-06, 07:53 AM	Yeah, I've seen access through ARs (forgot whether it was regional/meta or Core though).