Sample mundale crafting rules. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Sample mundale crafting rules. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Puggle Halfwine
06-27-06, 05:59 AM Hey guys,

There's a fair amount of debate on the Living Greyhawk mailing (once again) about mundane crafting. Out of boredom, I've created some sample rules which I believe are fair and balanced. These rules are based on the rules for crafting magical items; any areas of significant difference are highlighted in bold. Any chance these might get included in the next LGCS revision?

When crafting mundane items, you spend two things.

1. Gold pieces. Without campaign documentation, you spend half an item's market price during creation (to a minimum of one gold piece). There are exceptions to this rule- some items cost more.

2. Time. It takes time to craft mundane items. You must spend time units. The more expensive and more numerous the items, the more TU's you must spend to craft them.

Each TU grants your character up to five days to create mundane items. You may create, at most, one mundane item with a market value no more than 1,000 gold pieces per day. For more expensive items, you can spend multiple days crafting a single item. You may spend more than one TU crafting an item if, and only if, you are creating a single item and the market value of that item necessitates spending extra TU's (for instance, an item with a market value greater than 5,000 gold pieces). Any unused days that remain after crafting a single item requiring multiple TU's are forfeit. For an item with a market value of 8,000gp, you must allocate 2 TU's (ten days). Eight days are spent crafting the item; the remaining two days are lost. The only exception to this rule is if the item you are crafting is, itself, a material component for another crafting task; for instance, crafting a +1 suit of full plate requires a masterwork suit of full plate as a component. In this case, any spare days your character has remaining at the completion of crafting the masterwork suit of full plate may be spent on enhancing it to +1 (if your character possess the requisite feat). Note that any TUs which remain after the enhancing process is complete are lost.

Without campaign documentation, only the following items may be crafted via mundane crafting. Note you may only craft items which you have (or have previously had) access to purchase or craft. In addition, to craft a mundane item, your character must possess a certain number of ranks in the relevent craft skill.

Weaponsmithing

Simple melee or thrown weapon - 2 ranks.
Martial melee or thrown weapon - 5 ranks.
Crossbow - 5 ranks.
Exotic melee or thrown weapon - 8 ranks.

Alchemy

Acid - 2 ranks.
Alchemist's fire, smokestick, or tindertwig - 5 ranks.
Antitoxin, sunrod, tanglefoot bag, or thunderstone - 8 ranks.

Armoursmithing

Armor or shield - Ranks equal to AC bonus.

Bowmaking

Longbow or shortbow - 2 ranks.
Composite longbow or composite shortbow - 5 ranks.
Composite longbow or composite shortbow with high strength rating - 5 ranks + ranks equal to half strength rating (round up).

To craft a masterwork version of an item, you must possess at least 5 ranks in the relevant crafting skill. To craft an item made from special materials (such as mithril, adamantine or darkwood), you must possess at least 8 ranks in the relevant crafting skill. This counts as access for the purposes of mundane crafting ONLY.

For every 2 gp worth of items you wish to create, you must spend 1 gp from your character's coin value. You may not spend more gold than you currently possess.

Let's use Tordek, a 5th level fighter with 8 ranks in Craft (Armoursmithing) to illustrate these rules.

Between adventures, Tordek decides to spend a time unit crafting a few mundane items. He decides to create a suit of scale mail, along with a masterwork dagger. The scale mail costs 100 gp, while the masterwork dagger costs 151 gp. Tordek's total cost is 251 gp. Since this amount is well under 5,000 gp, item creation only costs him 1 time unit. All together he must spend 251 gp (501/2=251). During his next adventure, Tordek can use these items like any other, or he could sell them all back for 251 gp. Note that if Tordek sold the items, he earns back all the gold he had spent but not the TUs.

After the next adventure, Tordek decides to spend more time crafting items. After careful consideration, he decides to create an adamantine suit of full plate. He meets the minimum requirements (he has 8 ranks in Craft (Armoursmithing)). The item's market value is 16,500 gp, so it costs him 4 TUs. He is only able to create this one item for use during this adventure. He must spend 8250 gp.

In all other respects, the rules for crafting mundane items employ the same rules for crafting magical items (see LGCS page 55).
paigeoliver
06-27-06, 07:02 AM I am wondering why you limited your sample rules to weapons/armor/alchemy only? I would personally much rather waste my hard earned gold and time units crafting a boat. It seems kind of silly that a plain old 9th level wizard can craft himself up a folding boat but I can't make a regular one.

By the time most characters have the ranks needed to craft the weapons or armor they want they will have already purchased them, but a BOAT, well, by the time you save up enough money to pay the 5,000 to craft that sailing ship you will have enough ranks to do it. Yes I know ONE MAN isn't crafting a sailing ship by himself, but most of that 5000 GP would actually be spent paying the laborers, as the raw materials wouldn't be all that expensive.

Also, any particular reason you made martial weapons harder to craft than simple and exotic weapons harder to craft than everything? In most cases they are just harder to wield. Plenty of exotic weapons would actually be easier to make than quite a few mundane ones. Nunchuka versus ANY sword for example.
gomeztoo
06-27-06, 07:28 AM Don't forget to add that you can craft after a Core Scenario...
Generally like the rules, though I would say that crafting adamantite armor would require more than 8 ranks. You gain a LOT for getting that at half price (and you don't pay xp costs as with MIC).
GreySector
06-27-06, 09:55 AM When crafting mundane items, you spend two things.

1. Gold pieces. Without campaign documentation, you spend half an item's market price during creation (to a minimum of one gold piece). There are exceptions to this rule- some items cost more.

According to the SRD (and the PHB IIRC) for mundane item crafting you "Pay one-third of the item’s price for the cost of raw materials."
GorTeX
06-27-06, 10:13 AM Also, any particular reason you made martial weapons harder to craft than simple and exotic weapons harder to craft than everything

Probably due to the way craft skills work...from the SRD: Simple weapons are DC12, Martial are DC15 and exotic are DC18.

I would say that you would need 10 ranks to make masterwork or special materials (DC20 to make)

I'd prefer skill bonus to ranks, but I can see why ranks would be used instead.

I don't like the auto access to special materials. I think that things like mithral and adamantine should be found to be used (have access to in some way).

Since the time is reduced (making adamantine full plate in 4 TU's--that's quick), I don't mind only paying 1/2 price instead of 1/3 price.

Maybe let more skill reduce the time in some way--say for each multiple of the required rank you have, you can craft an extra 1000gp/day or maybe reducing the TU required by 1 (minimum is 1)
rogerd
06-27-06, 10:56 AM I would organize it such that you use the PHB rules, and use the standard magic item creation access rules, except that I might require documentation for special materials not normally available. This would DRAMATICALLY increase the time required to craft most items over the proposed rule, while making them a little cheaper. Furthermore, I would require the creator to take 10 for the creation. By the way, it is not particularly difficult to assign skills to all the items in the PHB. I did this exercise once and I only really needed one skill not listed as an example in the PHB (glassblowing, I think).

Borrowing a bit from Puggle, let's use Tordek, a 5th level fighter with 8 ranks in Craft (Armoursmithing) to illustrate these rules. Let's say he has a +0 Int modifier, but he has masterwork tools, so his total modifier is +10.

Between adventures, Tordek decides to spend a time unit crafting a few mundane items. He decides to create a suit of masterwork scale mail. The scale mail base cost is 2000 sp. The total cost of materials is 1500/3 + 500/3 = 667sp, or 67gp. Now for the TU cost. There are really two pieces here. The scale mail has a DC of 14 and the masterwork component has a DC of 20. The total amount of work in sp per week for the scale mail is the check result (20) times the DC to make the armor (14) in silver pieces, or 280 sp per week. Similarly, the progress on the masterwork component is 20*20=400sp/week. 1500/400 = 3.75 weeks and 500/280 ~= 1.8 weeks, so the total TU cost is 6TU. Essentially, the character has traded 6 TU and 67gp for an item worth 200gp which could be sold for 100gp (a 33gp profit).

After his next adventure, Tordek acquires access to adamantine as a special reward. He decides to craft a suit of adamantine full plate armor. The item's market value is 16,500 gp. The suit of full plate itself costs 1500, and has a DC of 18. The adamantine component costs 15000 and has a DC of 20. The cost to Tordek is 5500gp, and the time to create it is 150000/20/20 + 15000/18/20 = 375 + 41.67 = 417 TU, taking Tordek out of the game for the next 8 years. :-)

This shows it might be necessary to put a maximum TU limit on the player. Keep in mind that at higher levels you can add +10 to the difficulty to craft more quickly. If I were crafting adamantium, I'd want a minimum skill bonus of +20 so that I can do just that - at that it'll still take a long time! (150000/30/30 + 15000/28/30 = 166.67 + 17.85 = 185TU = 3.5 years)

A last thought - the LGCS is actually a little more permissive than the PHB, in that you get your check result rather than half your check result per week. It also ignores upkeep costs while you're crafting items, which is a bit unrealistic as well. I think that the basic reasoning of the Circle on this is that it is more paperwork than it's worth. On the other hand, I want to have an alchemist with a portable lab in my cart so I can make my own alchemical items! :D
copper_wyrmling
06-27-06, 11:01 AM I agree with Rogerd. I think it's unlikely that a complete rewriting of a core rule will be accepted for LG.

(My original post was much longer, but Rogerd explained what I wanted to say more clearly, and he posted just before my original post went up.)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Puggle Halfwine 06-27-06, 05:59 AM	Hey guys, There's a fair amount of debate on the Living Greyhawk mailing (once again) about mundane crafting. Out of boredom, I've created some sample rules which I believe are fair and balanced. These rules are based on the rules for crafting magical items; any areas of significant difference are highlighted in bold. Any chance these might get included in the next LGCS revision? When crafting mundane items, you spend two things. 1. Gold pieces. Without campaign documentation, you spend half an item's market price during creation (to a minimum of one gold piece). There are exceptions to this rule- some items cost more. 2. Time. It takes time to craft mundane items. You must spend time units. The more expensive and more numerous the items, the more TU's you must spend to craft them. Each TU grants your character up to five days to create mundane items. You may create, at most, one mundane item with a market value no more than 1,000 gold pieces per day. For more expensive items, you can spend multiple days crafting a single item. You may spend more than one TU crafting an item if, and only if, you are creating a single item and the market value of that item necessitates spending extra TU's (for instance, an item with a market value greater than 5,000 gold pieces). Any unused days that remain after crafting a single item requiring multiple TU's are forfeit. For an item with a market value of 8,000gp, you must allocate 2 TU's (ten days). Eight days are spent crafting the item; the remaining two days are lost. The only exception to this rule is if the item you are crafting is, itself, a material component for another crafting task; for instance, crafting a +1 suit of full plate requires a masterwork suit of full plate as a component. In this case, any spare days your character has remaining at the completion of crafting the masterwork suit of full plate may be spent on enhancing it to +1 (if your character possess the requisite feat). Note that any TUs which remain after the enhancing process is complete are lost. Without campaign documentation, only the following items may be crafted via mundane crafting. Note you may only craft items which you have (or have previously had) access to purchase or craft. In addition, to craft a mundane item, your character must possess a certain number of ranks in the relevent craft skill. Weaponsmithing Simple melee or thrown weapon - 2 ranks. Martial melee or thrown weapon - 5 ranks. Crossbow - 5 ranks. Exotic melee or thrown weapon - 8 ranks. Alchemy Acid - 2 ranks. Alchemist's fire, smokestick, or tindertwig - 5 ranks. Antitoxin, sunrod, tanglefoot bag, or thunderstone - 8 ranks. Armoursmithing Armor or shield - Ranks equal to AC bonus. Bowmaking Longbow or shortbow - 2 ranks. Composite longbow or composite shortbow - 5 ranks. Composite longbow or composite shortbow with high strength rating - 5 ranks + ranks equal to half strength rating (round up). To craft a masterwork version of an item, you must possess at least 5 ranks in the relevant crafting skill. To craft an item made from special materials (such as mithril, adamantine or darkwood), you must possess at least 8 ranks in the relevant crafting skill. This counts as access for the purposes of mundane crafting ONLY. For every 2 gp worth of items you wish to create, you must spend 1 gp from your character's coin value. You may not spend more gold than you currently possess. Let's use Tordek, a 5th level fighter with 8 ranks in Craft (Armoursmithing) to illustrate these rules. Between adventures, Tordek decides to spend a time unit crafting a few mundane items. He decides to create a suit of scale mail, along with a masterwork dagger. The scale mail costs 100 gp, while the masterwork dagger costs 151 gp. Tordek's total cost is 251 gp. Since this amount is well under 5,000 gp, item creation only costs him 1 time unit. All together he must spend 251 gp (501/2=251). During his next adventure, Tordek can use these items like any other, or he could sell them all back for 251 gp. Note that if Tordek sold the items, he earns back all the gold he had spent but not the TUs. After the next adventure, Tordek decides to spend more time crafting items. After careful consideration, he decides to create an adamantine suit of full plate. He meets the minimum requirements (he has 8 ranks in Craft (Armoursmithing)). The item's market value is 16,500 gp, so it costs him 4 TUs. He is only able to create this one item for use during this adventure. He must spend 8250 gp. In all other respects, the rules for crafting mundane items employ the same rules for crafting magical items (see LGCS page 55).
paigeoliver 06-27-06, 07:02 AM	I am wondering why you limited your sample rules to weapons/armor/alchemy only? I would personally much rather waste my hard earned gold and time units crafting a boat. It seems kind of silly that a plain old 9th level wizard can craft himself up a folding boat but I can't make a regular one. By the time most characters have the ranks needed to craft the weapons or armor they want they will have already purchased them, but a BOAT, well, by the time you save up enough money to pay the 5,000 to craft that sailing ship you will have enough ranks to do it. Yes I know ONE MAN isn't crafting a sailing ship by himself, but most of that 5000 GP would actually be spent paying the laborers, as the raw materials wouldn't be all that expensive. Also, any particular reason you made martial weapons harder to craft than simple and exotic weapons harder to craft than everything? In most cases they are just harder to wield. Plenty of exotic weapons would actually be easier to make than quite a few mundane ones. Nunchuka versus ANY sword for example.
gomeztoo 06-27-06, 07:28 AM	Don't forget to add that you can craft after a Core Scenario... Generally like the rules, though I would say that crafting adamantite armor would require more than 8 ranks. You gain a LOT for getting that at half price (and you don't pay xp costs as with MIC).
GreySector 06-27-06, 09:55 AM	When crafting mundane items, you spend two things. 1. Gold pieces. Without campaign documentation, you spend half an item's market price during creation (to a minimum of one gold piece). There are exceptions to this rule- some items cost more. According to the SRD (and the PHB IIRC) for mundane item crafting you "Pay one-third of the item’s price for the cost of raw materials."
GorTeX 06-27-06, 10:13 AM	Also, any particular reason you made martial weapons harder to craft than simple and exotic weapons harder to craft than everything Probably due to the way craft skills work...from the SRD: Simple weapons are DC12, Martial are DC15 and exotic are DC18. I would say that you would need 10 ranks to make masterwork or special materials (DC20 to make) I'd prefer skill bonus to ranks, but I can see why ranks would be used instead. I don't like the auto access to special materials. I think that things like mithral and adamantine should be found to be used (have access to in some way). Since the time is reduced (making adamantine full plate in 4 TU's--that's quick), I don't mind only paying 1/2 price instead of 1/3 price. Maybe let more skill reduce the time in some way--say for each multiple of the required rank you have, you can craft an extra 1000gp/day or maybe reducing the TU required by 1 (minimum is 1)
rogerd 06-27-06, 10:56 AM	I would organize it such that you use the PHB rules, and use the standard magic item creation access rules, except that I might require documentation for special materials not normally available. This would DRAMATICALLY increase the time required to craft most items over the proposed rule, while making them a little cheaper. Furthermore, I would require the creator to take 10 for the creation. By the way, it is not particularly difficult to assign skills to all the items in the PHB. I did this exercise once and I only really needed one skill not listed as an example in the PHB (glassblowing, I think). Borrowing a bit from Puggle, let's use Tordek, a 5th level fighter with 8 ranks in Craft (Armoursmithing) to illustrate these rules. Let's say he has a +0 Int modifier, but he has masterwork tools, so his total modifier is +10. Between adventures, Tordek decides to spend a time unit crafting a few mundane items. He decides to create a suit of masterwork scale mail. The scale mail base cost is 2000 sp. The total cost of materials is 1500/3 + 500/3 = 667sp, or 67gp. Now for the TU cost. There are really two pieces here. The scale mail has a DC of 14 and the masterwork component has a DC of 20. The total amount of work in sp per week for the scale mail is the check result (20) times the DC to make the armor (14) in silver pieces, or 280 sp per week. Similarly, the progress on the masterwork component is 20*20=400sp/week. 1500/400 = 3.75 weeks and 500/280 ~= 1.8 weeks, so the total TU cost is 6TU. Essentially, the character has traded 6 TU and 67gp for an item worth 200gp which could be sold for 100gp (a 33gp profit). After his next adventure, Tordek acquires access to adamantine as a special reward. He decides to craft a suit of adamantine full plate armor. The item's market value is 16,500 gp. The suit of full plate itself costs 1500, and has a DC of 18. The adamantine component costs 15000 and has a DC of 20. The cost to Tordek is 5500gp, and the time to create it is 150000/20/20 + 15000/18/20 = 375 + 41.67 = 417 TU, taking Tordek out of the game for the next 8 years. :-) This shows it might be necessary to put a maximum TU limit on the player. Keep in mind that at higher levels you can add +10 to the difficulty to craft more quickly. If I were crafting adamantium, I'd want a minimum skill bonus of +20 so that I can do just that - at that it'll still take a long time! (150000/30/30 + 15000/28/30 = 166.67 + 17.85 = 185TU = 3.5 years) A last thought - the LGCS is actually a little more permissive than the PHB, in that you get your check result rather than half your check result per week. It also ignores upkeep costs while you're crafting items, which is a bit unrealistic as well. I think that the basic reasoning of the Circle on this is that it is more paperwork than it's worth. On the other hand, I want to have an alchemist with a portable lab in my cart so I can make my own alchemical items! :D
copper_wyrmling 06-27-06, 11:01 AM	I agree with Rogerd. I think it's unlikely that a complete rewriting of a core rule will be accepted for LG. (My original post was much longer, but Rogerd explained what I wanted to say more clearly, and he posted just before my original post went up.)