Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gwenfloor 10-07-05, 01:41 PM	Warning! This thread is a rant on some issues in D&D that I do not agree with. I did some research on several unexplained locales of Greyhawk, and knew little about them. This all changed when I played the Red Tide Module. I noticed striking resemblances between the Scarlet Brotherhood Government and the real-world Nazis. Examples: 1.) Members are blonde-haired and blue-eyed and kill anyone not pure-blooded. 2.) Idealogy is to rule the world through racial superiority by miltary prowess. 3.) They want to commit genocide on the Baklunish. 4.) The Scarlet Sign has four black lines from the center on a red background, very similiar to a real-world swastica. 5.) Their emperor, Korenth Zan, is very paranoid, crazy, genocidal, and rascist. Sounds like Hitler. What's more horrifying is that in some modules, I hear you can join the Scarlet Brotherhood! Willingly! In Red Tide, I was so infuriated that I refused to do a military fascism's dirty work. The Module is not fun if you're blackmailed into invading another town that is run by another faction. The DM described Suel and Olman raiders killing the men and children and carrying off the women to do you-know-what to them. I was shocked and apalled at Gygax trying to put genocidal rascists into a Sword & Sorcery RPG. If I wanted to beat up a Nazi, I would play Axis & Allies, not D&D! I suggest that either WotC or the Triad Circle take the Scarlet Brotherhood off the board, or, if they can't do that, make a Module where their empire falls. I have several players that are Jewish, and they would be very sensitive to the subject. If LG wants to have many players, they should take the similarities between the 2 groups away. (End Rant)
kjenks 10-07-05, 01:47 PM	This role-playing game is about, among other things, exploring the nature of good and evil. In-game analogies to real-world evils are unavoidable and (to some extent) useful for telling the stories and giving players choices. Political references and jokes are rampant in Living Greyhawk.
ShinAkuma2 10-07-05, 02:47 PM	Because we all know genocidal madmen and racial hate groups only existed in the form of Nazism, and any similar groups MUST be direct references to that group.
Gwenfloor 10-07-05, 03:33 PM	ShinAkuma2, I know that there are many different hate groups, but the Scarlet Brotherhood is very much like real-world racism. In D&D, there are those that are racist toward Dragons, Drow, and other fantasy creatures, but the Scarlet Brotherhood are Humans being rascist towards other humans. It's a lot like the real world. I think I am not mad at the fact that the Scarlet Brotherhood exists, but I am mad about the Red Tide Module and the fact that some fellow players want to join them. Maybe Living Greyhawk presented them differently. The way my DM portrayed them was a lot like real-world Nazis.
King Kashue 10-07-05, 06:21 PM	Well, thinking Red Tide was a steaming pile and thinking the Scarlet Brotherhood shouldn't be in Greyhawk are two very different things... As for Gygax, he made Oerth to be a relatively grey and balanced place...Morality and right and wrong are not entirely clear in the classic setting. They have become more so in Living Greyhawk, due to the necessity of maintaining a healthy atmosphere of play (e.g., Wastri, the neutral god of bigotry has been eliminated as a PC god), but such grey areas and moral quandaries are an essential part of the Greyhawk setting... As for your comparisons between the Nazis and the Scarlet Brotherhood, no offense, but they seem relatively superficial...The most substantive commonality you highlight is that of a racialist worldview and racial supremacist policies, which, while certainly Nazi, are by no means exclusive to Nazism, and have been held by myriad peoples through out history, including some that we now today hold in esteem such (e.g., the Ancient Greeks)
Simpi 10-07-05, 07:35 PM	I suggest that either WotC or the Triad Circle take the Scarlet Brotherhood off the board, or, if they can't do that, make a Module where their empire falls. I have several players that are Jewish, and they would be very sensitive to the subject. If LG wants to have many players, they should take the similarities between the 2 groups away. (End Rant) SB is a vibrant and interesting part of Greyhawk and will not go anywhere, no matter over sensitive players might say. You do realise that your idea is: 1: Completely bonkers, empires do not fall in one module and such things are not made according to people's tastes. Heck, somebody probably finds our CE demon-spawn of the north to be extremely offensive, knowing that certain metaregional assumes characters willingly sacrifice a living being to demon but nobody is demanding Iuz to be removed from campaign. 2: Discriminating towards players from Splintered Sun meta-region whose regional plotlines are very much dependent on Scarlet Brotherhood, especially on Onnwal & Naerie. 3: While I find Red Tide lacking as a module, I welcome every change for a bit of shades of grey in Greyhawk that Living Greyhawk only rarely encourages. Partly because of that, our regional modules nowadays almost always include options for morally questionable acts that reward you on AR, sometimes better than 'doing the right thing'. S.H, The guy from Naerie
Samwise 10-07-05, 07:51 PM	Yes, the Scarlet Brotherhood are a bunch of evil pseudo-Nazis. I think this is a good thing, especially as a DM. I apply the same standards as I do in my wargames - if they die, even if it means I "lose", it is still a good thing! What better way not to care in the least as the players run roughshod over the bad guys, putting them down like a pack of rabid dogs when they aren't even that high on the scale of relative worth? Yes, you do face potential problems from players who might get so caught up in trying to justify their own exercise in role-playing that they forget, or at least lose any perspective, on just what they are trying to channel, and find themselves blithely demanding to join a pack of sociopathic scum, with maybe a vague nod at justification that they are just doing it to "reform" them or some such. Or you face the potential problem of those DMs who get so caught up in claiming the bad guys that they stomp all over the players, ignoring rules with abandon to keep "their characters" alive. Unfortunately you aren't going to solve either by just getting rid of the Scarlet Brotherhood, or any similar group. You will still be left with the Suel as a race in the setting, with a background that makes most of them as violently racist as the Scarlet Brotherhood. Will you next eliminate them as a race? And as it happens, LG already has eliminated one group because of its inherent, hard-wired, racism. Wastri is no longer allowed as a deity for PCs because of this. And I suspect that anyone who has joined the SB in that module is going to come to regret it greatly. Several curses in LG have turned out to look rather good at the start but turned really nasty as time went on. And I would point to what you say in your second post, that you are upset that anyone would want to join them. As well you should be! Maybe having the fact that they eagerly joined the National Suloise Greyhawk Villains Party, and having other people refuse to play modules with them, will wake some of these people up to the fact that "But I'm just role-playing!" doesn't cut it as an excuse for everything and anything. I'd certainly walk from any such table. And if my character were lifted for letting someone who had joined die, I'd consider it a tribute to my role-playing ability, putting my choice of character development over campaign success. Until then, I look forward to seeing players slaughter members of the Scarlet Brotherhood with abandon. So far, neither I, nor any other Jews i know, have objected to doing so whenever one of the worthless gits have shown up.
Gwenfloor 10-07-05, 09:34 PM	King Kashue, the Greeks never killed other ethnic groups on sight simply because they were not Greek. They were good friends with the Romans. The Greeks did not send out death squads killing those who are of a different ethnicity, and did not attempt to wipe any race off the face of the Earth solely out of sheer hatred for crimes the said race did not commit. Hitler was looking for a scapegoat. The Greeks dealt with others more based on how the outsiders would affect Greek life. In their Mythology, they were hospitable towards strangers, thinking they may be a God in disguise. The Ancient Greeks did have some distasteful customs, but they are nowhere near as immoral as Nazis. The Nazis killed over 6 million people, and in the Ancient World, the world's population was less than 30 million. World War II was 60 years ago, but it still affects us emotionally today. If you ever read books published by Holocaust survivors, such as "Maus," you'll see what the Nazis did. They are more twisted than my mind can comprehend. Thus, with the Scarlet Brotherhood, and the fact that some, not even 10%, players in my club want to join them in the game, I have this deep fear that my group is turning into a modern day Nazi Party. To me, this is really horrifying. I am sorry if I seemed very emotional with my earlier posts, it's just that something in me is starting to flip out over these certain players.
Simpi 10-08-05, 07:00 AM	Yes, you do face potential problems from players who might get so caught up in trying to justify their own exercise in role-playing that they forget, or at least lose any perspective, on just what they are trying to channel, and find themselves blithely demanding to join a pack of sociopathic scum, with maybe a vague nod at justification that they are just doing it to "reform" them or some such. Or you face the potential problem of those DMs who get so caught up in claiming the bad guys that they stomp all over the players, ignoring rules with abandon to keep "their characters" alive. Wow, political correctness rising its ugly head. I thought that whole purpose of roleplaying was to play different kind of people than you are in real life. I've played in several campaigns were i've played a complete scumbag and enjoyed it greatly. Only reason I did not join SB was because my usual region was in Onnwal and that would mean a death sentence. In our region we 'oppress' the Scarlet Brotherhood prisoners by keeping them in forced labor camps, much like Russians kept German soldiers for over a decade to 'rebuilt the mother Russia'. Most players think that this is a very practical and justified response. Should our Principality be destroyed because we are obviously evil? Let's all repeat it: It is just a game. I have no problem with anyone playing a self-interested sell sword or a bigot. Heck, I probably have more trouble with people playing LG 'holier than thou' types who try to justify killing any non-evil in sight just because they think they won't face any repercussions. Gwenfloor: Armenian Genocide, Holocaust, oppression of native americans, Killing Fields of Cambodia, Holodomor and many others are of course unfortunate. A local player wanting to join Scarlet Brotherhood of Oerth (fictional organisation in fictional world) does not mean that that in real life he is going to dress as brown-shirt. S.H, The guy from Naerie P.S: I plan on writing a module that grants extra rewards for SB members. I believe everyone who takes on this burden and risk to his character deserves more than just kick in the head...
ogdnd 10-08-05, 07:28 AM	Yes, the Scarlet Brotherhood are a bunch of evil pseudo-Nazis. [..] And as it happens, LG already has eliminated one group because of its inherent, hard-wired, racism. Wastri is no longer allowed as a deity for PCs because of this. And I suspect that anyone who has joined the SB in that module is going to come to regret it greatly. Several curses in LG have turned out to look rather good at the start but turned really nasty as time went on. And I would point to what you say in your second post, that you are upset that anyone would want to join them. As well you should be! Maybe having the fact that they eagerly joined the National Suloise Greyhawk Villains Party, and having other people refuse to play modules with them, will wake some of these people up to the fact that "But I'm just role-playing!" doesn't cut it as an excuse for everything and anything. I have not played the module in question, and I can't claim to be an expert on the SB, or even LG as a whole since I've only been active in the campaign for a little over two years now. However, wouldn't joining the SB count as an "evil act"? LGCS v. 4.2, p. 53: "If a PC performs an evil act, warn the player that you consider it evil at your first opportunity. If character acts regardless of the warning make a note on the AR. Also send this information to the local triad. Triads compile these reports to determine if the player needs to be removed from play. See Chapter 9." LGCS v. 4.2, p. 55: "Q: How many evil acts before my character is taken away? A: Varies. There is no set number to how many evil acts it takes to change your character’s alignment. It is up to the DM. These acts are noted in the play notes section of your adventure record. Once enough accumulate your character becomes evil and is removed from the campaign (see below for how this happens). If you do something bad enough the DM can deem you evil on the spot and you are done playing in that adventure. ..." Again, I do not consider myself an expert on the SB. However, the references that I have seen made to them are all extremely evil. If it can be done without possible spoilers, can anyone fill me in as to why joining the SB during a module would not be an evil act and reason to remove a character from play? IIRC, there is campaign precedent for removing a character for joining with an evil force no matter the reasoning (e.g. "I want to reform them" doesn't help)...yup, I just double checked and found it. TIA, Michael
Simpi 10-08-05, 07:41 AM	I have not played the module in question, and I can't claim to be an expert on the SB, or even LG as a whole since I've only been active in the campaign for a little over two years now. However, wouldn't joining the SB count as an "evil act"? No. It's in the AR and legimate thing you can acquire through normal gaming, without any mention of evil act (expect the normal paladins losing their mojo IIRC). Does not matter if the organisation itself is evil. That would exclude most Thieves Guild meta-organisations from Living Greyhawk as by default their modus operandi is not 'flowers and candy for everyone' but 'Let's make peoples lives miserable' S.H, The guy from Naerie
ogdnd 10-08-05, 09:41 AM	No. It's in the AR and legimate thing you can acquire through normal gaming, without any mention of evil act (expect the normal paladins losing their mojo IIRC). Wow....I'm surprised that got through...does anyone know what the justification was? (without spoilers, and please see below for more on my position) Does not matter if the organisation itself is evil. That would exclude most Thieves Guild meta-organisations from Living Greyhawk as by default their modus operandi is not 'flowers and candy for everyone' but 'Let's make peoples lives miserable' Hmm...I thought the Thieves Guilds MO (e.g. the ones players can join) were more CN than CE. IOW, it was "I want to get mine and I don't care if anyone else is affected" (CN or N, e.g. looking out for oneself with disrespect for others or the law), rather than "I want to make people miserable" (CE, looking to intentionally create misery). IIRC there are Thieve's Guilds that are primarily CE as an organization, and therefore not MOs. It's probably splitting hairs, but that was MHO. From what I read of the SB in the LG Gazetteer, it gave the impression the SB were outright interested in causing misery, e.g. "eeeeevil" (said as Dr. Evil). Again, just my $0.02. Is there a significant portion of the SB that is more N in alignment? (Not that this would be any more valid than the German populace's statement of "I was just carrying out orders.") Is there any cannon (again, that isn't a spoiler) that reveals the alignment of the SB? If the Thieves Guilds MOs (or any others for that matter) are primarily about causing misery, then should joining one be grounds for character removal from at least that session (until the Triad can review)? IOW, do MOs that are primarily evil violate the spirit of LG as presented in the LGCS since they allow PC access? I will admit that I don't have specific quotes from LG cannon throughout my posts. If anyone has any that can enlighten me either way, I would appreciate it. Unless someone has specific justification otherwise, my inclination as a GM in respect to an AR that allows joining such an organization (which, IIRC is not a MO) would be to allow the PC to join, mark it on the AR, mark the act as evil on the AR, and report it to my Triad for review. I'm not familiar with anything that prevents GMs from noting both facts ("joining" and "evil act") on the AR. IOW, just because an AR allows something doesn't mean it isn't an evil act. Of course, I can also see this discussion heading along "where do you draw the line between 'evil act' and not an evil act?" It may be that we draw different lines. Michael
JohnduBois 10-08-05, 10:59 AM	Joining an organization that promotes evil is not necessarily an evil act. Your character can join as a mole, for benefits, for safe travel, or simply because you don't think you have a choice. Real-world example: The current Pope of the Roman Catholic Church was a member of the Hitler Youth. Was he evil? No. He simply didn't want to go to a work camp or to prison for not joining. That said, if my main character (CG Dwarf in the region's military) knows that anyone in his party is in the Scarlet Brotherhood, he's going to turn them in at the end of the module.
Simpi 10-08-05, 10:59 AM	Wow....I'm surprised that got through...does anyone know what the justification was? (without spoilers, and please see below for more on my position) I don't but I can quess. I cannot give information without spoilers. Hmm...I thought the Thieves Guilds MO (e.g. the ones players can join) were more CN than CE. IOW, it was "I want to get mine and I don't care if anyone else is affected" (CN or N, e.g. looking out for oneself with disrespect for others or the law), rather than "I want to make people miserable" (CE, looking to intentionally create misery). IIRC there are Thieve's Guilds that are primarily CE as an organization, and therefore not MOs. It's probably splitting hairs, but that was MHO. From what I read of the SB in the LG Gazetteer, it gave the impression the SB were outright interested in causing misery, e.g. "eeeeevil" (said as Dr. Evil). Again, just my $0.02. Your CN point is rather irrelevant because in my opinion CN is more evil than evil, as my friend who plays LA says (maybe one of the reasons it is not available as alignment). 'Looking out for yourself without disregard to the law' in Thieves Guild example means 'I steal stuff from other people' which ultimately causes them misery and thus can be seen as an evil act. Note, thieves guild members do it on their own initiative instead of following chain of command, thus they are even more evil than 'I was just following orders' people because they have a choice. Is there a significant portion of the SB that is more N in alignment? (Not that this would be any more valid than the German populace's statement of "I was just carrying out orders.") Is there any cannon (again, that isn't a spoiler) that reveals the alignment of the SB? So why do you even ask the question because obviously you have already formed your opinion, no matter someone may say. One more sympton of political correctness. If the Thieves Guilds MOs (or any others for that matter) are primarily about causing misery, then should joining one be grounds for character removal from at least that session (until the Triad can review)? IOW, do MOs that are primarily evil violate the spirit of LG as presented in the LGCS since they allow PC access? They are about stealing money, an d don't try to use some Robin Hood stole from the rich justification because LG allows no such option as redistribution of wealth I will admit that I don't have specific quotes from LG cannon throughout my posts. If anyone has any that can enlighten me either way, I would appreciate it. Unless someone has specific justification otherwise, my inclination as a GM in respect to an AR that allows joining such an organization (which, IIRC is not a MO) would be to allow the PC to join, mark it on the AR, mark the act as evil on the AR, and report it to my Triad for review. I'm not familiar with anything that prevents GMs from noting both facts ("joining" and "evil act") on the AR. IOW, just because an AR allows something doesn't mean it isn't an evil act. Of course, I can also see this discussion heading along "where do you draw the line between 'evil act' and not an evil act?" It may be that we draw different lines. In that case said player could just laugh at your face , give you the proverbial finger and ask you to show where it says it's an evil act to join said organisation because the word 'evil act' does not appear anywhere in it's 75 pages. Basicly you would be trying to enforce player behavior with a stick labeled 'moral superiority'. Yes, we obviously see these things differently, because I hate people who think everything should be nice and cuddly and free of cynical realpolitik. S.H, The guy from Naerie
Gwenfloor 10-08-05, 11:38 AM	I feel this thread is taking a turn for the worse. I simply think that in my opinion I play D&D to engage in some rolling dice and having fun. I get sensitive when I see real-world references, especially genocidal madmen, put into a D&D Module. I am sorry, I'll try to steer clear of controversial topics from now on.
ogdnd 10-08-05, 11:45 AM	I don't but I can quess. I cannot give information without spoilers. Fair enough. (see the end of this post) In that case said player could just laugh at your face , give you the proverbial finger and ask you to show where it says it's an evil act to join said organisation because the word 'evil act' does not appear anywhere in it's 75 pages. If a player wishes to take that course of action, I'll simply report the facts to my Triad, including any proverbial gesture with ill intent toward a GM or other player. Being impartial is a requirement of a GM. I would follow the letter of the LGCS in this case since it is clearly spelled out (p. 55): "Only a triad or circle member can remove a character from play in the campaign. The DM’s job is threefold concerning this issue: warn players when their action is considered evil, note evil acts on player’s adventure records, report evil acts to the local triad. Triads handle it from there." I would warn the player and, if he insisted on joining, I would mark it on the AR and report it to the Triad. Additionally, your argument about whether or not "evil act" is defined (presumably) in the module is irrelevant. If it is not clearly defined in the module or in the letter of the rules (which it is not), it's GM discretion based on the letter and spirit of the rules, and it is the Triad's review. I'll reiterate a key part of that point: "If it is not defined in the module." If it is not defined one way or the other in the module, the GM needs to make a decision. If the player wants to join because he states that he likes slavery or genocide, I would warn him and, again if he persists, cite him on the spot even if it were mid-module. If he insists that he intends to infiltrate, I will remind him that he will likely be asked to commit atrocities for the SB. That is obvious to any PC considering membership to infiltrate, since infiltration implies the PC recognizes the SB as an evil organization. So why do you even ask the question because obviously you have already formed your opinion, no matter someone may say. One more sympton of political correctness. Yes, we obviously see these things differently, because I hate people who think everything should be nice and cuddly and free of cynical realpolitik. I take offense to these two quotes. You do not know me and you do not know my thoughts. Please do not throw labels at me without clear justification. No, I have not made my mind up. That is why I have asked questions about LG cannon (e.g. reference with page number) concerning the SB and actual MOs. Rather than receiving ranting, I would prefer to be given facts. While I generally do not like political correctness taken to extremes, LG is a _heroic_ campaign where evil acts by _PCs_ are frowned upon. That does not strike me as political correctness. YMMV. LGCS v. 4.2, p. 4: "...players aren’t allowed villainous characters in Living campaigns." Given the background of the SB (e.g. the LG Gazetteer), the SB is a thoroughly villainous organization. Belonging to such an organization, unless somehow justified to be otherwise by the module and AR or other campaign documentation, is, IMHO, implicitly an evil act. If I am wrong, my Triad will certainly be happy to correct me :), and I will accept their decision on this particular module with good grace. Having said all that, however, I have not played and/or GMed the module in question, and therefore I have no idea what may or may not be in the text of the module or AR. Ergo, I have not made up my mind. If anyone can cite LG cannon that is not a spoiler and can shed some light on the SB within LG, please do post. I will happily incorporate these facts into my thought process and thank you for your assistance. Unless someone has cannon to quote, however, I am bowing out of this conversation. Michael
Samwise 10-08-05, 11:48 AM	Wow, political correctness rising its ugly head. I thought that whole purpose of roleplaying was to play different kind of people than you are in real life. I've played in several campaigns were i've played a complete scumbag and enjoyed it greatly. Only reason I did not join SB was because my usual region was in Onnwal and that would mean a death sentence. Yes it is political correctness to dismiss "pretending" to be a racist sociopath as "just playing a game", and to condemn someone for not wanting to associate with someone who does so. As I noted, "role-playing" goes both ways. You can feel free to play a Scarlet Brotherhood member, and I can feel free to refuse to sit at a table with you. Being a rogue is one thing. Being in the Scarlet Brotherhood is another. There are such things as discretion and scale.
Simpi 10-08-05, 12:19 PM	Given the background of the SB (e.g. the LG Gazetteer), the SB is a thoroughly villainous organization. Belonging to such an organization, unless somehow justified to be otherwise by the module and AR or other campaign documentation, is, IMHO, implicitly an evil act. If I am wrong, my Triad will certainly be happy to correct me :), and I will accept their decision on this particular module with good grace. Michael You answered your own question. The membership is there on the AR and therefore a legal campaign documentation. Ultimately your argument about player conduct would be useless because you have initiated the whole thing by threathening to mark the player with an evil act without justification. And the faction you can join currently (that is not to say they won't do it later) is not interested in conquering all of Flanaess because they have their own internal affairs to sort out in Tilvanot. I believe I can say that without too much spoilers. Don't have the SB sourcebook on me but that's how I remember them. S.H, The evil guy from Naerie
Arvagor 10-10-05, 12:51 PM	Hmm...I thought the Thieves Guilds MO (e.g. the ones players can join) were more CN than CE. IOW, it was "I want to get mine and I don't care if anyone else is affected" (CN or N, e.g. looking out for oneself with disrespect for others or the law), rather than "I want to make people miserable" (CE, looking to intentionally create misery).Interesting assessment, but by their very nature, Thieves' Guilds are not chaotic organizations -- they are organized crime, which means lawful. I can't speak for other regions, but in mine (Veluna), the highest ranks in the MO are reserved for those with a Lawful component, and since we're talking PCs, that means LN or LG...
Silverlute 10-10-05, 10:38 PM	I think that there is an important difference that has yet to be pointed out about joining the SB. Joining does not mean following orders. Any player, when ordered by his superiors in a mod, would have the option to follow that order. Doing so might count as an evil act, but just signing up could have many other reasons behind it. It is the PCs actions, not his contacts, that determine if (s)he is evil.
GreatSiron 10-12-05, 10:30 PM	A lot of the Yeomandry mods involve the Scarlet Brotherhood, seeing as they are our next door neighbors. I for one enjoy getting the chance to beat the crud out of those racists. Last mod I took down eight of the guys, and boy did it feel good. I almost didn't want to kill the main guy, so he'd keep spawning more minions for me to beat up. As far as some of the other Scarlet mods go, I haven't play Red Tide, but as far as unethical acts go, my rouge has done more that one, including the orb in Shedding Scales (yeah evil powerup!)
JohnduBois 10-12-05, 11:08 PM	You know, everybody plays with the rock in that module, and nobody remembers that it's evil for some reason. Odd, that...
King Kashue 10-13-05, 03:26 AM	Yeah, that NON-RETIRED module... Spoiler tags at the very least guys, better if you don't mention it at all...
Livia 10-13-05, 03:43 AM	I believe the Scarlet Brotherhood are Lawful group. Mostly Lawful Evil, but you could quite easily be a Lawful Neutral member of the group. I've played RedTide myself, I thought it was a bit of an 'eh' module, quite a bit of it didn't make sense to us (The training was strange.) Not sure how much can be said about it though, is Red Tide still available for play? I'll keep quiet and not make any spoilers for now.
King Kashue 10-13-05, 06:37 PM	I believe the Scarlet Brotherhood are Lawful group. Mostly Lawful Evil, but you could quite easily be a Lawful Neutral member of the group. I've played RedTide myself, I thought it was a bit of an 'eh' module, quite a bit of it didn't make sense to us (The training was strange.) Not sure how much can be said about it though, is Red Tide still available for play? I'll keep quiet and not make any spoilers for now. There are several good members of the Scarlet Brotherhood...Primarily naive Suel duped into their schemes, but they do exist (several Onnwal mods have them) My character had to be subdued to prevent him from killing a Neutral Good priestess of Lydia...He kills all SB on sight, and she was SB...
Ojoxsofeta 10-13-05, 09:06 PM	Not sure how much can be said about it though, is Red Tide still available for play? I'll keep quiet and not make any spoilers for now. Red Tide's still playable until the end of the year.
James MacKenzie 10-14-05, 04:15 PM	"Red Tide" is a seriously flawed mod. I don't want to risk giving away information that I shouldn't, but anyone planning to run or play "Red Tide" needs to seriously consider what the players' reactions will be to the nature of the scenario. When I ran it, I tossed the boxed text so that I could better emphasize the different goals and alignments of the various NPCs. This clarified the moral conflict that the players faced. It went from "Do I help the fascist scum?" to "Do I support the less aggressive (Lawful Neutral) fascists against the more nasty ones?" A few words of explanation from the NPCs made the scenario MUCH less coercive. If you run this adventure, I strongly recommend that you consider the motivations of the NPCs. The goals of the Scarlet Brotherhood include establishing Suloise racial dominion, but the methods that they prefer will depend on their alignment. Instead of threats and brute force, I gave the NPCs a few honeyed words of persuasion and expressions of concern about the path the Scarlet Sign has chosen. These people want the heroes as allies; why would they alienate them unneccessarily?
TallGuy 10-17-05, 05:17 AM	If you run this adventure, I strongly recommend that you consider the motivations of the NPCs. The goals of the Scarlet Brotherhood include establishing Suloise racial dominion, but the methods that they prefer will depend on their alignment. Instead of threats and brute force, I gave the NPCs a few honeyed words of persuasion and expressions of concern about the path the Scarlet Sign has chosen. These people want the heroes as allies; why would they alienate them unneccessarily? Because with a few exceptions (and you know what those are if you've played/gm'ed the module) they don't care about alienating them? They want the heroes services, not their friendship. Services can be bought, or coerced, without a problem. Now, the Scarlet Brotherhood is a racist organization, and they'll happily kill everyone in their way, but they are not out to kill every other race (or even the bakluni race). They need servants too, you know... :D Servants, slaves, breeding material, soldiers, canonfodder, etc. Bas Vermeulen
X-Mass 10-27-05, 07:58 AM	Warning! This thread is a rant on some issues in D&D that I do not agree with. I have several players that are Jewish, and they would be very sensitive to the subject. If LG wants to have many players, they should take the similarities between the 2 groups away. (End Rant) I would like to reply to the origoanl rant and the presumption by the author that only jews would be upset by anything to do with Nazi's. It would be nice if the author did in future some more research. so for example the final solution only came about because they could not arrange the transportation of the jews The final solution is based on earlier exepreiments and death camps for "sub-normals" i..e the 'mentaly disturbed', the gentically diffrent e.g. downes syndrome and especially for groups that challenged gender assumptions the first conecntration camps were set up in '33 for the 're-education' of groups such as lesbians and gay men the news reel images often shows pictures of book burning expecially when the Nazi's cam to power and before - they don't say what they were burning: Marcus Hirschfeld research library on third sex people. The third sex at the time was what is covered by transgender today i.e. people who challenge 'traditional' assumptions about gender. e.g, at at that time camp/feminine men who may or may not be homosexual, butch women who may or may not be homosexual, transexuals, transvestites, crossdressers etc Whilist the SB groups (later destroyed by the SS) did have a signifcant groups of gay men in them, we must not forget the Jewish regiments of the SS Actualy the very first people to be imprisoned by the nazi's were the transexual men and women who in the weimer goverment had been given equal rights and the rights to be married, they and their partners and other intersex individuals were hunted down and beaten. They were the first to be experimented on my nazi doctors looking to 'cure' them. those that cold not be cured were immediatly excuted or later gassed. I belive that there was much support given for this move by the synagogues (who of course felt untouchable at this time).
Gwenfloor 10-30-05, 06:05 PM	I am very sorry, X-Mass. I have a tendency to not look deeply into situations and events that disturb me, such as WWII. I do know that not only Jews hate Nazis. It's pretty much anyone with a conscience. By many players, I meant the majority of people. Look in society how Hitler is looked upon. He's probably one of the most reviled people on Earth. I fear that the Red Tide Module would make people who do not know D&D to look at the hobby very negatively and action may be taken. Remember in the 70s and 80s when various people of the media portrayed D&D as a cult game that causes the players to go insane? I do not want that to happen again.
JohnduBois 10-30-05, 06:22 PM	I've been trying to find an appropriate way to respond to this thread, and I think I have found one. Be aware prior to reading this thread that I do have great sensitivity for this issue from multiple angles; I am related by marriage to a Holocaust survivor, and I have a close friend who still struggles with the fact that her grandfather was an enthusiastic member of Germany's Nazi party. Dungeons and Dragons is a game, and many people do not take the possible emotional impact of its material seriously. That said, those that do need to acknowledge the fact that this material which could be viewed as potentially offensive is an excellent way to raise such issues without immediate negative response. We all know that Hitler and the Nazi party were, without a doubt, what is classified in D&D as STRONGLY Lawful Evil. But what fewer people know is the process through which this party came to power. The way the Scarlet Brotherhood is discussed in modules and other Greyhawk material provides VERY good explanations of how such an abhorrent act came to be. In fact, the tactics used by the Brotherhood in Redtide were, to a degree, used by Hitler to get rid of his enemies within the party. The fact that many players are playing in character and being snowed by this organization is a somewhat accurate representation of history. In my opinion, a socially responsible (or solidly roleplaying) group of gamers could easily recognize this for what it is: an education regarding how this kind of thing can happen so that we can identify the beginnings of such hateful movements before it can take hold.
rutrow424 11-02-05, 06:19 PM	The SB is an overwhelmingly evil organization, whose intent is for world domination for its race (and only certain priviliged members of that race). The racial view applies to other humans and the nonhuman races. JohnduBois said it very well, that the similarities between the SB and Nazi Germany are meant to reflect to a certain degree the real world - much of the original canon of GH is representative of real world history. It may not be everyone's taste, and may not be appropriate for all ages, but I do think allowing for some "realistic" or "mature" themes is good for the game as a whole. The fact that a Core module allows the possibility that a PC could join IMHO is a valid and vital thing to keep the campaign as close as feasible to the original feel of GH (where evil PCs were a possibility). In LG, it should be the case that very few PC would both be eligible to join (pure Suel heritage), and in-character would join (either through ignorance or out and out collaboration or somewhere in-between). Joining does provide certain advantages, and carries the possibility for many serious disadvantages. As an aside, my pure Suel PC was asked and refused to join, but we did complete the module (more or less) successfully. As a previous post noted, joining the SB itself is not an evil act - canon shows many SB members are not evil, but following certain orders may be. Those orders may also go against the wishes or aims of the PC and/or his adventuring companions, even if the orders are not evil per se. A player or PC is completely within his rights to refuse to play/adventure with an open SB member - but that's why most SB members hide their affiliation.
ogdnd 11-03-05, 07:48 AM	As a previous post noted, joining the SB itself is not an evil act - canon shows many SB members are not evil, but following certain orders may be. Which canon? Source and page number, please. Thanks, Michael
Saracen 11-04-05, 11:14 PM	Gwenfloor, Gawds, where do I begin? “I have a tendency to not look deeply into situations and events that disturb me, such as WWII.” And yet you make superficial and uniformed conclusions about both the Scarlet Brotherhood (SB) and the Nazis. You presume to speak for people like me, whose Grandfather fled Germany in 1933 precisely because he saw the writing on the wall and had the means to emigrate to America (trust me, America has its hands dirty because of the great lengths the government went to deny entry to European Jews prior to our entry in the war, which, by then, it was too late to get people out). Whoops sorry, you don’t want to know about that. Let’s just say that you are under qualified to comment on the Nazi/Scarlet Brotherhood parallels (which is a weak thesis at best, by the way). “I fear that the Red Tide Module would make people who do not know D&D to look at the hobby very negatively and action may be taken.” Invoking the tired, old saw that someone outside the hobby might get offended and attack it was lame when “Conservative Christians” were supposedly appeased by TSR by removing Demons and Devils from the game. It did nothing to protect the hobby because the people attacking it didn’t care that the names had been changed, they still saw it as a conduit to witchcraft (spells) and Satan worship (calling a Devil a Baatezu doesn’t really remove the fact that infernal beings are present in the game). The fact is they still believe it today, they just have bigger, juicer targets to go after, like the video game industry or Hollywood. Your call for self censorship really angers and offends me. Do not hide behind the flimsy fear of raving lunatic fringe as a means of dealing the real issue you have with Red Tide… It made you uncomfortable. It is your desire to have “Snidely Whiplash” be your recurring human villain (black hat and twirling mustache cued up) or that your villains be sufficiently non-human so that pesky gray areas of morality and conscience don’t have to enter into your gaming experience. The fact is players have a choice in Red Tide to do the right thing (the hard thing) or compromise themselves and do the self-interested thing (the easy thing). If some make the easy choice, I am sure there will be concequences for said act. So, do not pretend to speak for Jews (or Gypsies, the mentally ill, people with birth defects, Eastern Europeans, homosexuals, trade unionist, communists, socialists, etc.) that the Nazis targeted for isolation and eventually death. You don’t have the right. Do not speak for my hobby as an appeaser to lunatic fringe religious, social and political movements that might have problem with our creative game. It is that kind of appeasement that allowed people like the Nazis to gain power. Speak to your own experience, that is legitimate, no one can tell you that you cannot feel something, they are your emotions. I will not deny you where disturbed by Red Tide. Its when you wrap your experience around the experience of others to justify yourself and how YOU felt about that you butt heads with me. I am sorry if my response is harsh, but hit a nerve with me Gwenfloor. Bryan Blumklotz Son of F. Peter Blumklotz Grandson of Bruno Blumenklotz
Gwenfloor 11-06-05, 10:57 AM	Saracen, I am very sorry. I did not see myself in such a way. You know what, D&D is just a game, and I should not make big deals about it. I am not trying to appease any lunatics, I just tend to make a big deal out of things. I am not trying to wrap my experience around others. I know that I was only just playing a game, and that my experience did not have any real-life danger. The reason why I do not look very deeply into events that disturb me is because that when I heard of the oppression that goes around the world even today, I became very deeply and emotionally anguished. I have a compulsive disorder that causes me to obsess about some things that I find deeply disturbing, up to the point that I try to tell others of these things and hope that they try to put a stop to it. You know what, this thread has caused strong feelings to ignite. Saracen, I hope that you can accept my deepest apologies. I did not mean to offend you. I should be more observant in the future of real-world events. Thank you for making me realize this, Saracen. May someone please close this thread?
bythegawds 11-06-05, 04:32 PM	Which canon? Source and page number, please. Thanks, Michael The Scarlet Brotherhood, 1999: Non-Evil (and in some cases GOOD) Deities of the Brotherhood: Bralm, Llerg, Wee Jas, Dalt, Fortubo, Jascar, Kord, Lendor, Lydia, Norebo, Osprem, Phaulkon, Phyton, Xerbo. Non-evil Brotherhood NPCs: p. 27 (Patpi, Kesh of Ilkrova) p. 27 (Palis, Kesh of Naraic) p. 28 (Nappesirt, Kesh of Ris) p. 34 (Ellinka) As far as Red Tide goes, if you're faced with a difficult moral choice that your character isn't prepared to make, be prepared to suffer the consequences. Take your zero-XP AR, leave the table, and let the people who want to continue the module do so. I've never encountered a module, to include Red Tide, where I couldn't figure out a way to reason why my Neutral Good character was taking part in the adventure. In this particular module, it was a simple matter of making up my mind that I was playing one element of the hated Brotherhood (and EXCEPTIONAL villain group!) off against the other. I'm sorry that you're offended but honestly, if you're that thin-skinned, I suggest that you pick a hobby where personal interaction isn't a prerequisite. - My Cousin Vinny
Samwise 11-06-05, 08:13 PM	The Scarlet Brotherhood, 1999: Non-Evil (and in some cases GOOD) Deities of the Brotherhood: Bralm, Llerg, Wee Jas, Dalt, Fortubo, Jascar, Kord, Lendor, Lydia, Norebo, Osprem, Phaulkon, Phyton, Xerbo. Wow that's horribly misrepresentative of that content. First and foremost it should be noted that the SB promotes worship of the entire Suel pantheon simply because they are Suel deities. All must be recognized, no matter what. Second it should be noted that one of those deities will have absolutely nothing to do with the SB, or any other humans, because of evil acts by Suloise humans in the past. (Fortubo.) And another will grant no spells to clerics of the SB. (Jascar.) Third, two of them do in fact have an Evil component to their alignment, something that was significantly more important in 2nd ed (when that product dates from), and is reflected in those deities being from an Evil plane. (Acheron specifically, for Bralm and Wee Jas.) Fourth, note the major deities of the SB. Two are ones with Evil components noted (Bralm and Wee Jas), two are overtly Evil (Pyremius and Syrul) and one is CN, and favored mostly by the savage troops from the Amedio and Hepmonaland. Non-evil Brotherhood NPCs: p. 27 (Patpi, Kesh of Ilkrova) p. 27 (Palis, Kesh of Naraic) p. 28 (Nappesirt, Kesh of Ris) p. 34 (Ellinka) So that would be five. Compared to how many that are Evil? So yes, there is canon that not every single existing active or passive member of the Scarlet Brotherhood or serving in their empire is Evil. There is even more that the organization itself is wholly and excessively Evil.
Namarus 11-06-05, 08:48 PM	Third, two of them do in fact have an Evil component to their alignment, something that was significantly more important in 2nd ed (when that product dates from), and is reflected in those deities being from an Evil plane. (Acheron specifically, for Bralm and Wee Jas.) Bralm is Evil? That's news to me. Since Bralm is listed in the LG Deities as being Neutral.
Samwise 11-06-05, 09:03 PM	Bralm is Evil? That's news to me. Since Bralm is listed in the LG Deities as being Neutral. Bralm was originall N (LN/LE). Her home plane was Acheron, which was either LE (LN) or LN (LE) depending on how you looked at. (And sometimes noted as LNE.) All of the "partial" alignments like that were "simplified" for 3E, which resulted in some loss of flavor and background information related to it.
King Kashue 11-06-05, 11:15 PM	So that would be five. Compared to how many that are Evil? So yes, there is canon that not every single existing active or passive member of the Scarlet Brotherhood or serving in their empire is Evil. There is even more that the organization itself is wholly and excessively Evil. And no one has claimed it is not an evil organization, just that there are members who are not evil...As for the canon, the supplement doesn't provide a run down of all 10,000 members or so...The fact that there are Keshes that are not evil says something about the fact that even higher ranking officiers are not always evil... There are SB clerics who are Good (tend to be Lydians)...As I mentioned, my primary tried to kill one and would have if his party hadn't subdued him and 20 NPC archers hadn't stepped in (I'd be up to 35 SB killed right now if they hadn't :( )
Macabail 11-07-05, 11:55 AM	I'm going to post some general responses to many of the various points that have been raised. First, the Scarlet Brotherhood as an organization are by no means entirely evil. The main source book goes on at length about various factions, and careful reading can determine that not all of these factions are indeed evil. Such is the case in Red Tide. Second, as to comparisons between the Scarlet Brotherhood, and the various organizations that have marred recent history. Unless Gygaz himself decides to indicate who the inspiration was, we do not know. My view, as an author and former campaign triad member, is that while Greyhawk does have shades of grey, it does also have a few organizations that approach the absolutes. One of those organizations is the Scarlet Brotherhood, which extemporizes Lawful Evil. There are numerous other organizations that uphold the virtues of other alignments (Empire of Iuz - CE, Circle of Eight - N, etc). Now, as to how I decided to depict matters in Red Tide, and the joining of the Brotherhood. The Brotherhood has little or no reason to want to have the PCs as friends, since any of them who would join will follow their orders without question, and those PCs who wont will require coercion. They view other races as being inferior (not this does not mean that they are looking at genocide, rather it is similar in some ways to the views of slavery in the Southern States, but only similar not the same), and thus those PCs should be following their orders as well. The only reason that PCs can join that group of the Brotherhood, is because that particular faction is not Evil. What repercussions PCs who swore fealty may suffer will be dealt with in future adventures. James Zwiers Living Arcanis Staff Author of Red Tide Former Triad for the Duchy of Urnst
Ishorn 11-08-05, 12:33 PM	I am a huge fan of Greyhawk ever since I bought the single book and two part map in 1980 and there has never been any hidden secret who the Suel Empire and the Scarlet Brotherhood were. The thing is do you get upset when you see the Nazis being made into cardboard characters in the Indiana Jones movies. You have stated that D&D is a game which is a good attitude to take. The Scarlet Brotherhood and the Suel race can be taken in two ways. They could considered to be real world aryans or just more cardboard villians to throw at player characters.
Gwenfloor 11-08-05, 01:22 PM	You're right, Ishorn. I should try not to link fiction and real-world events together and get crazy about it. Ihave learned my lesson. I think this thread's time is up. I have no more problems with the SB now. If I don't like a module, then I don't have to play it.
King Kashue 11-08-05, 03:28 PM	The Scarlet Brotherhood and the Suel race can be taken in two ways. They could considered to be real world aryans or just more cardboard villians to throw at player characters. Well, to nitpick, the "real world aryans" were a group of Indo-european speaking peoples who settled in the Indus Valley in the 2nd millenium BCE...Their writings (specifically the rig-veda) form one of the major portions of the later Vedic cultural heritage...
rutrow424 11-08-05, 05:41 PM	The Scarlet Brotherhood, 1999: Non-Evil (and in some cases GOOD) Deities of the Brotherhood: Bralm, Llerg, Wee Jas, Dalt, Fortubo, Jascar, Kord, Lendor, Lydia, Norebo, Osprem, Phaulkon, Phyton, Xerbo. Non-evil Brotherhood NPCs: p. 27 (Patpi, Kesh of Ilkrova) p. 27 (Palis, Kesh of Naraic) p. 28 (Nappesirt, Kesh of Ris) p. 34 (Ellinka) Thanks for posting this for me; I had looked the info up over the weekend but did not have the chance to get it up here. The key point here is that there are non-evil SB members, including those that are in leadership roles. The same supplement repeats in several areas that the organization as a whole and its aims are very evil; individuals and factions though may have different goals and viewpoints.
Woesinger 11-11-05, 11:00 AM	OK, as the Circle guy for the Splintered Sun and a triad guy for Onnwal, both of which strongly feature the Scarlet Brotherhood, I think I should chime in here. First off - the Nazis were bad, evil, wicked people who were responsible for some of the worst crimes against humanity ever commited. Let's not have any doubt about that. They are not cool. They are not chic. Their ideology is repugnant. It's worth pointing out though, that despite the current media obession with them, the Nazis are not the only group of madmen who've ever espoused ideals of racial purity and been prepared to kill the Other to make real their ideology. People have been slaughtering people they regard as different or Other, probably since we stood upright millions of years ago. When we're mentioning the Holocaust, we should also mention events like the Crusades, the Armenian genocide and the ethnic "cleansing" in former Yugoslavia, Rwanda and Sudan (to pick what is sadly a very small, randomish sample). Turning to the World of Greyhawk, the Scarlet Brotherhood show some obvious Nazi references (blonde, blue eyed people with ideals of racial purity and seniority and a yen to restore their lost empire). It's also worth remembering that they are the **bad** guys. Greyhawk is about shades of grey and so evil is not always protrayed as black and white as it is in, say, Forgotton Realms - but at the end of the day, no matter what guise they appear in, the SB are evil people motivated by a twisted ideology. Now in Onnwal, we've tried to portray them as being more than cardboard cut-out SS troopers in red. We've delved into their motivations; we've shown that they're not all out and out evil (though even the good ones acquiesce to an evil ideal); in some cases they can be redeemed; in most cases, they can't. Like real people, they're not evil for the sake of evil - they're evil because their belief system justifies to them the wicked things they do to other people. The SB isn't Iuz, an unreal supernatural creature empowered by the mindless acts of evil he and his minions commit. Like the Operative in "Serenity", the SB does evil because they honestly believe that they are creating a better world. That doesn't make them any less evil, or in any way excuse or justify their actions. It simply explains why they do what they do, which for me is more satisfying than saying they're that way "just coz". What's more evil, the being that mindlessly does wrong because it can't do anything else, or the being who, though capable of doing right, chooses to do wrong? The point's been made that roleplaying games should just be about fun. They should be fun, but if they are fun and teach people something as well, I think that's all the better. By portraying evil people realistically, I think it can tell us something about the world we live in. In the real world, Nazis never had devil horns, eye patches or sinister evil laughs like they do in the movies. The officers in the death camps would often go home to their wives and families at the end of each day and live normal everyday lives. Equally, I think the SB should be portrayed as regular people motivated by a repugnant belief system. Another thing to consider is that, though the Nazis were undeniably evil, a lot of regular people went along with what they did and stood for. Why? Because when bad people can look just like good people, it can sometime be hard to tell difference. The Nazis used honeyed words and seemingly reasonable arguments to persuade people to accept their ideology (many of their modern admirers and apologists still do). If you're just looking for people with devil horns, it's possible you'll miss the evil that hides behind a smiling face. I think there's no harm in teaching people that in LG (provided it's not to exclusion of fun, of course). I also think there's no harm in showing people that their actions have consequences. LG and D&D in general is about heroic characters fighting the good fight against evil, but what kind of struggle is it if the good guys never have to choose between right and wrong? That's the hard thing about being good - choosing to do right when it often means choosing to take the difficult path, rather than the easy one, to make a sacrifice, rather than do what is convenient or in your selfish interest.* So yes, PCs can choose to join the SB, and you can believe me that though that might seem like a good deal to begin with, it's not. For example, at the recent Onnwal special event at GenCon UK, PCs found to have the Member of the SB cert would have been summarily executed - no argument, no appeal (we didn't find any, but that's hardly surprising, given the SB are the big bad in the region). I'm sure there'll be other knock on effects in future cores. In short - I think that in a game of good and evil like D&D, evil should be realistic and players should be presented with moral choices and dilemmas. Otherwise, you just have cartoon bad guys and virtue by default - neither of which are terribly satisfying. Because the SB are more insidious than the other bad guys in Greyhawk and because they allow us to challenge the PCs with these choices and dilemmas, I think they do have an important role to play in Living Greyhawk. But please don't ever mistake that for a subtext suggesting that being a Nazi is cool. It's not and anyone who thinks it is needs to take a long hard look in the mirror and/or a history book. Paul Looby Circle rep. - the Splintered Sun metaregion * As an aside, one of my favourite moments in computer gaming recently was in "Operation Flashpoint" - where you play a retired solider who's country is invaded by the Soviets. At one point, you're given the choice of betraying a group of resistance fighters to the Sovs or trying to take on three armed Soviet soldiers with an old double barrel shotgun (which is on the other side of the house from where you're standing at gunpoint). The beauty of it is, you can take either path - the easy one (betrayal) or the hard one (trying to shoot your way out). If you take the hard part, you'll probably get shot twenty times before you finally succeed. If you take the easy one, you get taken to the Soviet general who commends you and asks you to betray more of your countrymen - and I can tell you, it's one of the most uncomfortable, queasy moments of gaming I've ever sat through. It's a rare game that can make you feel guilt and shame for being a moral coward.
Ishorn 11-11-05, 12:58 PM	Well, to nitpick, the "real world aryans" were a group of Indo-european speaking peoples who settled in the Indus Valley in the 2nd millenium BCE...Their writings (specifically the rig-veda) form one of the major portions of the later Vedic cultural heritage... Actually I know this but Hitler wrote about a race of supermen that lived in the mythical realm of Hyperborea and he called them Aryans. I am not sure if one of his followers dug this up or if he did. My question still stands does it bother the person who originally posted this thread that Steven Speilberg and George Lucas along with other writers and film makers show the Nazis as cardboard villians? I agree with the people posting that Gary used some of the characteristics that are thought to make up the members of the master race but I would not read to much into it. Also I got it first hand from Ed Greenwood that the Red Wizards of Thay were actually suppose to be more oriental, sort of like Fu Manchu, then the final product okayed by TSR. I think that could be considered very racist. The Red Chinese.
Gwenfloor 11-11-05, 03:22 PM	I realized that I made a big deal about this thread. If the Scarlet Brotherhood is an evil organization, that's fine. If they resemble Nazis, it is not offensive if they're evil and you CANNOT join them willingly in-game. My opinions today are different than my opinions when I started this thread. My problem was with the players in my group WANTING to join the SB. I already have a hard time trusting people who are violently rascist in real life and apply that situation in D&D. In my group, a PC wanted to kill a village of Kobolds who's reformed and worships Dumathoin. He wanted to kill them for being Kobolds. I had a thread about this in "What's a DM to do?" He was the white supremacist and was later revealed to be part of a hate group in real life. Since the Scarlet Brotherhood are villains who deserve to be thwarted in Living Greyhawk, I now have no problem about that. Ishorn, in Indiana Jones and countless other movies set around WWII, the Nazis have been used as villains. I no longer have a problem with Nazis being present in movies and games, and I realize that the developers probably disdain the Nazis as much as anyone else does.
Simpi 11-11-05, 05:42 PM	In my group, a PC wanted to kill a village of Kobolds who's reformed and worships Dumathoin. He wanted to kill them for being Kobolds. Actually in my group the players immediately asked the question: 'So let me get this straight? These others want to take over this place and kobolds are just defending their home?' Solution was simple. They walked to kobolds with a white flag, negotiated a bit and then returned to village and told the other side to get lost. They didn't so players returned with a kobold army and killed everyone they found in the village. Quite an ingenious solution, if a bit borderline evil but so is the original plotline of the module as large scale genocide will happen one way or the other. Players actually saw parallers to real world events in the module and were quite happy to give the author a proverbial finger for his political views :) S.H, the guy from Naerie
Gwenfloor 11-11-05, 10:14 PM	Fortunately in that module, I convinced the Gnomes and Kobolds to sign a peace treaty to block all tunnels leading to the other village and they won't bother each other ever again. Being a charismatic Bard has it's advantages.
JohnduBois 11-11-05, 11:06 PM	Yeah, I've had a number of times where I kinda wish my bard was around to try to talk people out of doing something completely bloody stupid. Instead, I sit there with one of my CHA 8 characters and roleplay dumb along with the other characters that are actually that socially reprehensible. Oh, did I mention that in Furyondy, "Lawful Good" means "the entire Church of Heironeous is insanely self-righteous"?
King Kashue 11-12-05, 03:34 AM	My problem was with the players in my group WANTING to join the SB. There are also in-game character interaction consequences to consider...I can easily foresee players who will be told by everyone at the table "no, we will not play with your SB character"... In Nyrond's recent Political kerfuffle, a few PCs sided with the LE usurper Prince...Once their political affiliations became known, a good many people (my nyrond primary included) refused to table with them...On a similar note, my Onnwal primary would never table with a member of the SB, seeing as he's tried to kill every Brotherhood he's ever come across with only two exceptions (stupid Tarnedas and stupid Tev Chervas)...
arcayne_1 11-21-05, 06:07 PM	. No, you shouldn't feel pressured to stifle your own opinion, because you are entitled to it. Some folks (myself included) do not share it, feeling that you are being a mite over-sensitive in being offended by the tenuous (at best) comparisons to the Nazis. . I was fortunate enough to get a copy of the SB handbook, published inthe last century (god, how I love saying that). The way they are described makes them seem to fit beter into the category of Lawful Evil; they follow rules, but feel that their well-being and culture are more important than others'. Due to the realistic fluctuation of people's mores, I submit that most of the peoples of the Hepmonaland Scarlet Brotherhood fall into the alignment range of Neutral Evil through Lawful Neutral to full on Lawful Evil. The SB considers themselves the true, Chosen people, and everything they are and want to be is done towards this end. They create monstrous crossbreeds in breeding pits, they subvert and attempt to topple governments and have spies everywhere solely to protect themselves from ANY possible threat to what they feel is their Manifest Destiny to rule the world once the "lesser races" wipe each other out. Laws and rules are absolutely a part of who they are - these rules help them define themselves as the Chosen Ones. . Before you kip down my throat about this, consider that most evil folk do not label themselves as evil, but rather as pragmatists or - at worst - ultimate Darwinists. The strong survive and strengthen the race while the weak perish. It is incorrect, of course, but it the clash of these values systems that define good and evil. . Real-world references are endemic to LG, and have been since its inception. If you are concerned that your players are all into this SB mindset, make sure that they are aware of the costs of it. If their thoughts are ever scryed, or they are somehow discovered, they are toast in almost every civilized country in Greyhawk. They will be arrested, tossed into a cell, and then they will throw away the cell. The SB is quite reviled in Greyhawk. Most people would prefer to kiss a Vecnan than a Brotherhood member. At least with the Vecnan, you know it will be you who dies. The SB will kill you, your dog, and anyone who ever petted your dog. They are quite lawful that way. -Pete [QUOTE=Gwenfloor]I feel this thread is taking a turn for the worse. I simply think that in my opinion I play D&D to engage in some rolling dice and having fun. I get sensitive when I see real-world references, especially genocidal madmen, put into a D&D Module. I am sorry, I'll try to steer clear of controversial topics from now on.[QUOTE]