Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gwumph 06-04-07, 02:52 AM	It says its an APL-2 mod But I noticed online it seems to be only 1st level characters. Do you have to be first level to play in this module? or is a 2nd level character allowed? Cheers Gwumph
Timlagor 06-04-07, 03:18 AM	1st level only.
Rerednaw 06-04-07, 10:26 AM	Does not have to be a new character. Just level 1.
qstor 06-04-07, 12:05 PM	Right, the PC doesn't have to be on AR #1. Mike
Joethesmita 06-04-07, 08:04 PM	Right, the PC doesn't have to be on AR #1. Mike But he can't be on AR #3....#2 is the best type of number before you play that mod.
pedr 06-04-07, 08:16 PM	He could be on AR #3. 2 450xp modules would still leave you 1st level. Furthermore, he could have gained 10xp for module 1, 150xp for module 2, 75xp for module 3, etc... he could be on AR 17 and still be 1st level, technically speaking!
clannagh 06-04-07, 08:28 PM	He could be on AR #3. 2 450xp modules would still leave you 1st level. Furthermore, he could have gained 10xp for module 1, 150xp for module 2, 75xp for module 3, etc... he could be on AR 17 and still be 1st level, technically speaking! .... and just to confuse matters in addition to those 17 ARs already in the stack the PC could have also playtested another 3 or 4 mods that havent premiered yet and still technically qualify for Scourge.
RedKnightofKet 06-04-07, 11:28 PM	Or died/level drained. There are lots of ways to be back down to first, it's just that those characters are usually just dropped outright. I know of one character who died twice in the same mod - was reincarnated as an orc (I think), killed reincarnated as a human - left him at 2nd level...
Howie23 06-05-07, 02:07 AM	I know of one character who died twice in the same mod - was reincarnated as an orc (I think), killed reincarnated as a human - left him at 2nd level... Reincarnated as an orc (or other non-player race)...no longer a PC. End of story. What am I missing? David
RedKnightofKet 06-05-07, 12:47 PM	Reincarnated as an orc (or other non-player race)...no longer a PC. End of story. What am I missing? David The DM apparently said it was okay to kill him immediately, then try reincarnate again. Not sure exactly what happened, wasn't at the table.
_metz_ 06-05-07, 12:51 PM	Yeah not allowed to do that, Senior GM or Triad issue. The risk of turning into an Orc is the downside of reincarnate. There is far too much opportunity of abuse if that was allowed Otherwise people would die and keep doing it till they got a benefit out of it - (Grey Elf turned into a Dwarf, ending up with +2 Con and +2 Int... where are the downsides?)
King Kashue 06-05-07, 01:12 PM	The DM apparently said it was okay to kill him immediately, then try reincarnate again. Not sure exactly what happened, wasn't at the table. Oh yeah, that's a pretty flagrant violation of the rules... There is far too much opportunity of abuse if that was allowed Otherwise people would die and keep doing it till they got a benefit out of it - (Grey Elf turned into a Dwarf, ending up with +2 Con and +2 Int... where are the downsides?) The downside is losing a level every time you do it :D Actually, as long as you keep hitting PC legal races, you could do it. You'd just lose a level per death, 1000g each time, and if you hit an NPC race, that's the end of the character...
_metz_ 06-05-07, 02:21 PM	True, downsides - but wouldn't it be cool if it happened ;)
Howie23 06-05-07, 02:42 PM	The DM apparently said it was okay to kill him immediately, then try reincarnate again. Not sure exactly what happened, wasn't at the table. Well, they could kill the now NPC orc, but once an NPC, always an NPC. David
clannagh 06-05-07, 07:12 PM	Well, they could kill the now NPC orc, but once an NPC, always an NPC. David That is the key to the matter. If you reincarnate as a non-PC race youare a NPC and there seems no way to get back to PC from that status even if you change races again. On the otherhand if you reincarnate as the "wrong" PC race there seems nothing in the rules to stop the PC immediately commiting suicide (take poison and then jump off a handy cliff ?) and trying again. Downside ?? You lose a lot of levels. In addition if you are chasing one specific race it is statistically more likely you will end up a NPC and out of the game.
_metz_ 06-06-07, 02:06 AM	That is the key to the matter. If you reincarnate as a non-PC race youare a NPC and there seems no way to get back to PC from that status even if you change races again. On the otherhand if you reincarnate as the "wrong" PC race there seems nothing in the rules to stop the PC immediately commiting suicide (take poison and then jump off a handy cliff ?) and trying again. Downside ?? You lose a lot of levels. In addition if you are chasing one specific race it is statistically more likely you will end up a NPC and out of the game. Suicide is not allowed. I am positive there is some precedent on this, I will ask Britt, he will know.
clannagh 06-06-07, 03:09 AM	Suicide is not allowed. I am positive there is some precedent on this, I will ask Britt, he will know. You do seem to think a lot of things are illegal :) The only time I ever saw it mentioned was some sort of ruling that raise dead would be unsuccessful on an NPC that suicided as to raise dead the soul must want to return yet if an NPC suicided he clearly doesnt want to come back. Other than that the GM could try to claim its an evil act but i doubt that would wash with any sensible Triad. If you ban suicide regardless of whether the PC wishes to come back or not .. then you are going to create serious issues when a PC deliberately sacrifices themselves to save the rest of the party with the hope that at least there is a chance they might get raised.
Timlagor 06-06-07, 03:25 AM	In Time's tide on Bright Sands you could commit suicide and have your body carried through the pool back to the future in order to get eh Princess through as well. For some reason that I never worked out the module frowns upon this logical course of action and Shamaya doesn't give you her favour but it's definitely LG-legal in that case. The only rule that I can think of that might apply is the rule against deliberately putting off retirement ..which simply doesn't fit for this since that is not the goal.
magebeast 06-06-07, 12:02 PM	Suicide is not allowed. I am positive there is some precedent on this, I will ask Britt, he will know. Actually I know for a fact that someone had a character commit suicide at a Con that Britt was in attendance at.
Simpi 06-06-07, 02:23 PM	On the otherhand if you reincarnate as the "wrong" PC race there seems nothing in the rules to stop the PC immediately commiting suicide (take poison and then jump off a handy cliff ?) and trying again. Downside ?? You lose a lot of levels. In addition if you are chasing one specific race it is statistically more likely you will end up a NPC and out of the game. I think the rules are clear. The moment you reincarnate as wrong race, you are out. No re-rolls, no divination rolls, etc. Even in realism-free zone that are LG characters, would we really wish to see following to take place: A: Hey, wake up! You died but Druid made you better. B: Urgh....why are you looking at me like that. A: Well, we sort of cocked it up. You came back as kobold. B: A kobold! Where's a mirror. (A holds up a mirror they just looted from bad guys bathroom. B does not like what he sees). B: Holy s..t! I want to be human again! (B headbuts the mirror to pieces and grabs a shard) B: Right, I will now slit my throat. Tell that Druid to cast a better spell next time. If you get it wrong, slit my throat and do it again. Don't bother waking me up! (B slits his throat, gurgles for a while and falls dead to ground) Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
_metz_ 06-06-07, 02:32 PM	You do seem to think a lot of things are illegal :) The only time I ever saw it mentioned was some sort of ruling that raise dead would be unsuccessful on an NPC that suicided as to raise dead the soul must want to return yet if an NPC suicided he clearly doesnt want to come back. Other than that the GM could try to claim its an evil act but i doubt that would wash with any sensible Triad. If you ban suicide regardless of whether the PC wishes to come back or not .. then you are going to create serious issues when a PC deliberately sacrifices themselves to save the rest of the party with the hope that at least there is a chance they might get raised. I would think allowing it in LG would be a source of concern for some of the more radical groups that oppose DnD in general. Furthermore, The Time's Tide in Bright sands was more a sacrifice then a suicide. I think the 'suicide' option was a bit of a fudge. (As stated Shemaya didn't give her favour) And I personally think it wasn't that well done in that regard. (loved the rest of the mod, one of my all time favourites) I just foresee big issues in allowing it without any regulation at all. I could have sworn that if you committed suicide for the purposes of losing a level/changing race, it was deemed metagaming and the fact that your character committed suicide = not wanting to be raised therefore no raising. I dunno, whether it is allowed or not I would like to get some sort of ruling on it.
clannagh 06-06-07, 07:48 PM	I think the rules are clear. The moment you reincarnate as wrong race, you are out. No re-rolls, no divination rolls, etc. Even in realism-free zone that are LG characters, would we really wish to see following to take place: A: Hey, wake up! You died but Druid made you better. B: Urgh....why are you looking at me like that. A: Well, we sort of cocked it up. You came back as kobold. B: A kobold! Where's a mirror. (A holds up a mirror they just looted from bad guys bathroom. B does not like what he sees). B: Holy s..t! I want to be human again! (B headbuts the mirror to pieces and grabs a shard) B: Right, I will now slit my throat. Tell that Druid to cast a better spell next time. If you get it wrong, slit my throat and do it again. Don't bother waking me up! (B slits his throat, gurgles for a while and falls dead to ground) Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad I agree I was talking about the situation where for example the PC was a halfling but comes back as a dwarf which is undesirable due to gear all being the wrong size etc. I havent come across a ruling that prevents that Dwarf PC "arranging" to die and reincarnate again in an attempt to come back as a halfling. It would be a dangerous and probably counterproductive thing to do but i cant actaully see any rule that prevents it. Even if there was a rule against it the same player could easily arrange to "accidently" die in combat. I dont think it s a big issue its just certian players are power freaks that like to control everything everyone else in the game does.
_metz_ 06-06-07, 07:56 PM	I agree I dont think it s a big issue its just certian players are power freaks that like to control everything everyone else in the game does. I think that is rather ridiculous a statement for you to be levelling if someone has the opinion that suicide in LG needs some regulation. Especially when you yourself refer to 'people who use spiked chains are real DnD players' How does asking for a way to curb people metagaming and exploiting the concept of leveling equate to being a power freak? 'Oh look - I am about to level and retire - off with my own head! good thing there aren't any power hungry freaks to stop me circumventing the point of Retirement! thanks for defeating them clannagh' Think of the ramifications BEFORE you throw accusations around. Whilst players getting themselves killed does happen, its because they are deliberately exploiting the existing system for retirement. When they are allowed to just lop their own heads off, that seems counter productive You make massive assumptions on other players and read into their intentions purely because they clash with your own home brand of gaming. Sure I think there are situations where suicide (e.g. sacrifice) should be allowed, but that doesn't mean it should be taken so lightly and allowed with no restrictions. Especially considering the pressure that the game is under from groups that are against that sort of thing.
JamesMaissen 06-06-07, 08:04 PM	I think the rules are clear. The moment you reincarnate as wrong race, you are out. No re-rolls, no divination rolls, etc. Honestly I'd like them either allow those other races to be playable, or (even better) would be to simply make an LG reincarnation list. We already have a sub-races list, why not make one table that includes all the playable LG races, including sub-races? The chances could be kept near to what they are now without the chance of removal from the campaign for not getting a cleric. -James
clannagh 06-06-07, 08:19 PM	Honestly I'd like them either allow those other races to be playable, or (even better) would be to simply make an LG reincarnation list. We already have a sub-races list, why not make one table that includes all the playable LG races, including sub-races? The chances could be kept near to what they are now without the chance of removal from the campaign for not getting a cleric. -James I think the big downside of a "cheap" reincarnation is the risk of permanently being out of the campaign. Without that risk reincarnation might be priced "to cheap". The non-negligible risk of permanent exclusion (combined with level loss every time you try) is also why i believe suidice to reincarnate is actually a dumb thing to do and don't understand the obsession with banning it in these circumstances. Suiciding and using a free raise dead to beat the xp/gold curve or suiciding to avoid retirement are clearly different matters. But I personally would see that as a "report to triad" situation. I may be wrong but I have seen nothing banning the behavior .. just potential consequences if you are reported and triad disapproves.
Timlagor 06-07-07, 01:52 AM	Without the chance of being out of the campaign (for an entirely arbitrary reason), there would still be the considerable risk of coming back as something undesirable. I don't like that a spell with no chance of failure has a significant chance of taking you out of the campaign purely because certain races are arbitrarily declared unplayable.
King Kashue 06-07-07, 02:42 AM	I don't like that a spell with no chance of failure has a significant chance of taking you out of the campaign purely because certain races are arbitrarily declared unplayable. Then go buy a Raise Dead... They could just as easily take the spell out of the campaign. They've got a decent amount of reason to do so, given the potential for cheating and abuse. Instead they've decided to trust the players, and give folks the option of choosing the higher risk in order to save money/roll the dice on a beneficial change.
JamesMaissen 06-07-07, 05:08 PM	They could just as easily take the spell out of the campaign. They've got a decent amount of reason to do so, given the potential for cheating and abuse. Instead they've decided to trust the players, and give folks the option of choosing the higher risk in order to save money/roll the dice on a beneficial change. I myself would rather see the spell banned than altered in this way. The downside to a reincarnate should be coming back in an undesired form, not being removed from play. If you want to have a house rule for LG, and I can understand not wanting certain monster races as PCs, then make the change that doesn't alter the nature of the spell. There shouldn't be a risk of loosing a character from a reincarnation. Already there are extra tables for it, so it would not be difficult to handle. -James
Ralis 06-07-07, 07:31 PM	We had a similar discussion not that long ago around the table. Accourding to my Senior GM, if your character is reincarnated as a non-playable race, your allowed to finish the mod, and then it goes to the triad to see if you get to keep the character or not.
King Kashue 06-08-07, 12:03 AM	We had a similar discussion not that long ago around the table. Accourding to my Senior GM, if your character is reincarnated as a non-playable race, your allowed to finish the mod, and then it goes to the triad to see if you get to keep the character or not. Your Senior GM and the LGCS disagree... Guess who wins...:D If the result is a creature other than a dwarf, human, halfling, gnome, half-elf, halforc, or elf, the PC becomes an NPC and can never again be played as a PC in LG (LGCS 7.5 p. 17)
mowaca 06-11-07, 08:36 AM	There is far too much opportunity of abuse if that was allowed Reincarnate has been abused in LG, that's for sure, but its rare. PCs killing PCs and suicide are not allowed, you only really get one shot at reincarnate. Also, I thought there was some text in the LGCS regarding a NPC spellcaster must exist in the adventure to cast it, but they've removed it recently.
_metz_ 06-11-07, 08:41 AM	Reincarnate is regularly abused, everyone knows that. Yes, but that is to be expected. categorically saying "suicide is allowed" with no ramifications or conditions, then the ability to abuse it increases massively - not just with reincarnate, but with losing dead levels, (especially now with retraining)
boolean 06-11-07, 12:55 PM	Also, I thought there was some text in the LGCS regarding a NPC spellcaster must exist in the adventure to cast it, but they've removed it recently. The text was removed because it wasn't necessary. Reincarnate isn't on the NPC Performed Spellcasting table, so the only way to get a reincarnate cast is to have an NPC (or PC) specifically able to cast it.
mowaca 06-11-07, 08:13 PM	The text was removed because it wasn't necessary. Reincarnate isn't on the NPC Performed Spellcasting table, so the only way to get a reincarnate cast is to have an NPC (or PC) specifically able to cast it. That makes sense.