Scroll of Animate Dead [Archive] - Wizards Community

Scroll of Animate Dead [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
_metz_
03-28-07, 12:41 AM Here is an interesting question: My character has a scroll of animate dead - he acquired it legally in a module.

What I want to know - is would I get away with using it to make a skeleton butler?

I would like to know if it would last more than one game etc...

There is also the issue of evil acts etc...

Its a most interesting conundrum.

What say the people?

I just want it to have a skeleton butler or manservant, of some unusual creature I find one day, (The HD of the undead can only be 10 anyways - CL 5th Scroll) and want to know if this is possible...
Timlagor
03-28-07, 11:52 AM 1) You can use it
2) The skeleton would not last beyond the module unless you can get some other documentation (let's not look too closely at how this works with the Attribute Manuals)
3) Your Judge could decide to report you to the triad for the evil act.
jstorrie
03-28-07, 07:05 PM Your judge should, in fact, report you for the evil act, but a single animate dead is hardly going to get your character pulled.

Rather than blowing it on a non-permanent butler, you may want to save it for a mod that you're having particular trouble with. Raising up a zombie minotaur meat-shield isn't always possible, but when it is it can be a huge help.
pedr
03-28-07, 07:36 PM Your judge should, in fact, report you for the evil act, but a single animate dead is hardly going to get your character pulled.Just to be completely clear. He should, if he believes that it is 'significant'. The LGCS is circular here: A judge must report evil acts if he considers them significant enough to warrant reporting. In other words it is completely a matter for the DM's judgement, and no-one can gainsay him.

What happens after reporting is a matter for the Triad and Circle-rep.
jstorrie
03-29-07, 07:29 PM That's what I meant; I was just asserting that most judges should rule that casting animate dead is significant enough to note as an Evil Act, as D&D sources consistently repeat that the creation of undead (with a few exceptions - baelnorn, etc.) is one of the most evil acts you can commit in game.
pedr
03-29-07, 09:00 PM I agree, and that would be the ruling at my table. I only posted because of the confusion some perhaps still have about the new evil act reporting system.

I'd be less inclined to report casting 'Command Undead' - although I'd have to remember that I was a DM, not playing my Radiant Servant of Pelor!
King Kashue
03-29-07, 09:38 PM the creation of undead (with a few exceptions - baelnorn, etc.)

No worries there on two accounts. Baelnorns are FR-specific, and they not actually created by means of a spell (they choose to become Baelnorns and personally undertake a ritual). :D
Timlagor
04-03-07, 12:36 PM That's what I meant; I was just asserting that most judges should rule that casting animate dead is significant enough to note as an Evil Act, as D&D sources consistently repeat that the creation of undead (with a few exceptions - baelnorn, etc.) is one of the most evil acts you can commit in game.

Could you cite some of these sources please?
Are they current? Are they LG-applicable?

It's just not something I've come across before.
thorinXXX
04-03-07, 02:45 PM Your judge should, in fact, report you for the evil act, but a single animate dead is hardly going to get your character pulled.

Rather than blowing it on a non-permanent butler, you may want to save it for a mod that you're having particular trouble with. Raising up a zombie minotaur meat-shield isn't always possible, but when it is it can be a huge help.

If you report an Evil act, you are trying to get the caracter removed. That may not be your intention, but that is what you are doing. Once you report an Evil act the Triad and then Circle have only two responses:
A: That is not Evil enough; keep playing.
B: The character is now Evil. Turn in your character sheet and AR's.

So, if you do not think that an action is worthy of character removal, do not report it. That does not preclude making notes on the offender's AR so that the next judge has a bit more info on whether removal is warranted.
jstorrie
04-03-07, 02:52 PM While there are probably some more recent sources, page eight of Book of Vile Darkness makes it explicitly clear that the creation of undead is completely heinous in almost all cases.
King Kashue
04-03-07, 02:54 PM If you report an Evil act, you are trying to get the caracter removed. That may not be your intention, but that is what you are doing. Once you report an Evil act the Triad and then Circle have only two responses:
A: That is not Evil enough; keep playing.
B: The character is now Evil. Turn in your character sheet and AR's.

So, if you do not think that an action is worthy of character removal, do not report it. That does not preclude making notes on the offender's AR so that the next judge has a bit more info on whether removal is warranted.

That is not what the LGCS says, so you've got a bit of an issue saying that (as in, you're telling people to do something that contradicts the LGCS).

If a judge thinks that a PC's acts are significantly evil, either in quality or quantity, he is required to report them.

You're interpolating your own definition of "significant" by saying "you're trying to get the character removed". That's not what you're doing. You're reporting what you believe to be a significantly evil act, nothing more.

The only thing you are saying is "This act seems significant enough to report to the Triad", i.e., that it's not inconsequential. It doesn't need to be enough on it's own to warrant an evil alignment, and the Triad's decision is not "evil or not evil" based on the act alone (which is explicit in the LGCS as well).

Your suggestion eliminates the possibility of a PC turning evil based on a patter of significant evil acts, no single one of which would be sufficient to change the PC. Since that possibility is explicitly part of the process (in both the LGCS and in Circle writings on this board), your suggestion cannot eliminate it...You're essentially changing the criteria from "significantly" to "grossly" or "conclusively" without having any basis for doing so.
Timlagor
04-03-07, 03:03 PM If you report an Evil act, you are trying to get the caracter removed. That may not be your intention, but that is what you are doing. Once you report an Evil act the Triad and then Circle have only two responses:
A: That is not Evil enough; keep playing.
B: The character is now Evil. Turn in your character sheet and AR's.

So, if you do not think that an action is worthy of character removal, do not report it. That does not preclude making notes on the offender's AR so that the next judge has a bit more info on whether removal is warranted.

C. That character is at serious risk of becoming Evil if he repeats that behaviour.
D. That character is not Evil but may become so if there are many more reports of it.

The Triad should be told any time an Evil act is notedon an AR.
_metz_
04-04-07, 08:25 AM If it alone was sufficient to get my character banned, I would inquire as to why I was given access.

It was just a funky idea, might jokingly pretend to be a necromancer (the character is going to have spymaster levels)

Now there is something fun and interesting...
pedr
04-04-07, 09:17 AM I don't think that using a scroll of animate dead ought to get your character removed. However, I think that the triad ought to keep an eye on PCs who use scrolls of animate dead, so I'd report it, so that they can monitor whether this is a regular occurance or not.

I don't think the triad needs to keep an eye on PCs who cast inflict light wounds a few times a module, so I wouldn't report it. A few times a day and I probably would :)

I think that the triad needs to seriously consider removing a PC who, for instance, sets fire to an inn containing innocent people in otder to stop a relatively worthless bad-guy get away with the loot that he wants. So I'd report that in slightly more strident tones!

I think that's an accurate portrayal of the spread of responsibility a DM has under the new rules, and I think it makes sense. Now, this only works if the triad is being reasonable and responsible, but I tend to assume that's the case.
Zanzibax
04-04-07, 04:16 PM Here is an interesting question: My character has a scroll of animate dead - he acquired it legally in a module.

/me calls the Keoland Darkwatch immediately
MichaelAhlf
04-04-07, 05:35 PM This sort of circular logic confuses and concerns me.

I know that the BK has a different way of looking things. One of the "top 10" from one of our shirts is "This would get your character pulled in most regions."

However, I've seen rebuking clerics (LN followers of Wee Jas) who had to tread a fine line. I have a friend who since moved to another region for college, who deliberately played a necromancer whose goal and purpose was to collect enemies from early encounters and use them in later ones.

While these are technically evil acts, nowhere in the LGCS does it say how to notate the good acts that may counterbalance this, and I can see a group of people (not our Triad, who have a pretty good handle on this, but other regional triads) pulling characters just because they keep getting reports, with no recourse for the player who's only guilty of trying to play an interesting character.
Timlagor
04-04-07, 08:25 PM I think most (if not all) Triads actually have a pretty good handle on this. I believe that the people with the 'crazy' attitudes are all 'just players/judges'.

Two points for the concerned player though:
- There is nothing to say you can't get judges to note your good acts as well
- When a judge reports an Evil Act they are supposed to also report any and all mitigating circumstances (which would imo include notably good acts performed in the module).
- Triads have to get it confirmed by the Circle when they 'yank' someone and the player can (attempt to) appeal the verdict.

In practice there has not been a rash of characters getting taken out of the campaign and nor is one expected.
_metz_
04-04-07, 09:47 PM hey thanks to LG, my character technically has a million "good" points, so a couple evil here and there technically shouldn't shift the axis too much, the issue is its never been codified.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
_metz_ 03-28-07, 12:41 AM	Here is an interesting question: My character has a scroll of animate dead - he acquired it legally in a module. What I want to know - is would I get away with using it to make a skeleton butler? I would like to know if it would last more than one game etc... There is also the issue of evil acts etc... Its a most interesting conundrum. What say the people? I just want it to have a skeleton butler or manservant, of some unusual creature I find one day, (The HD of the undead can only be 10 anyways - CL 5th Scroll) and want to know if this is possible...
Timlagor 03-28-07, 11:52 AM	1) You can use it 2) The skeleton would not last beyond the module unless you can get some other documentation (let's not look too closely at how this works with the Attribute Manuals) 3) Your Judge could decide to report you to the triad for the evil act.
jstorrie 03-28-07, 07:05 PM	Your judge should, in fact, report you for the evil act, but a single animate dead is hardly going to get your character pulled. Rather than blowing it on a non-permanent butler, you may want to save it for a mod that you're having particular trouble with. Raising up a zombie minotaur meat-shield isn't always possible, but when it is it can be a huge help.
pedr 03-28-07, 07:36 PM	Your judge should, in fact, report you for the evil act, but a single animate dead is hardly going to get your character pulled.Just to be completely clear. He should, if he believes that it is 'significant'. The LGCS is circular here: A judge must report evil acts if he considers them significant enough to warrant reporting. In other words it is completely a matter for the DM's judgement, and no-one can gainsay him. What happens after reporting is a matter for the Triad and Circle-rep.
jstorrie 03-29-07, 07:29 PM	That's what I meant; I was just asserting that most judges should rule that casting animate dead is significant enough to note as an Evil Act, as D&D sources consistently repeat that the creation of undead (with a few exceptions - baelnorn, etc.) is one of the most evil acts you can commit in game.
pedr 03-29-07, 09:00 PM	I agree, and that would be the ruling at my table. I only posted because of the confusion some perhaps still have about the new evil act reporting system. I'd be less inclined to report casting 'Command Undead' - although I'd have to remember that I was a DM, not playing my Radiant Servant of Pelor!
King Kashue 03-29-07, 09:38 PM	the creation of undead (with a few exceptions - baelnorn, etc.) No worries there on two accounts. Baelnorns are FR-specific, and they not actually created by means of a spell (they choose to become Baelnorns and personally undertake a ritual). :D
Timlagor 04-03-07, 12:36 PM	That's what I meant; I was just asserting that most judges should rule that casting animate dead is significant enough to note as an Evil Act, as D&D sources consistently repeat that the creation of undead (with a few exceptions - baelnorn, etc.) is one of the most evil acts you can commit in game. Could you cite some of these sources please? Are they current? Are they LG-applicable? It's just not something I've come across before.
thorinXXX 04-03-07, 02:45 PM	Your judge should, in fact, report you for the evil act, but a single animate dead is hardly going to get your character pulled. Rather than blowing it on a non-permanent butler, you may want to save it for a mod that you're having particular trouble with. Raising up a zombie minotaur meat-shield isn't always possible, but when it is it can be a huge help. If you report an Evil act, you are trying to get the caracter removed. That may not be your intention, but that is what you are doing. Once you report an Evil act the Triad and then Circle have only two responses: A: That is not Evil enough; keep playing. B: The character is now Evil. Turn in your character sheet and AR's. So, if you do not think that an action is worthy of character removal, do not report it. That does not preclude making notes on the offender's AR so that the next judge has a bit more info on whether removal is warranted.
jstorrie 04-03-07, 02:52 PM	While there are probably some more recent sources, page eight of Book of Vile Darkness makes it explicitly clear that the creation of undead is completely heinous in almost all cases.
King Kashue 04-03-07, 02:54 PM	If you report an Evil act, you are trying to get the caracter removed. That may not be your intention, but that is what you are doing. Once you report an Evil act the Triad and then Circle have only two responses: A: That is not Evil enough; keep playing. B: The character is now Evil. Turn in your character sheet and AR's. So, if you do not think that an action is worthy of character removal, do not report it. That does not preclude making notes on the offender's AR so that the next judge has a bit more info on whether removal is warranted. That is not what the LGCS says, so you've got a bit of an issue saying that (as in, you're telling people to do something that contradicts the LGCS). If a judge thinks that a PC's acts are significantly evil, either in quality or quantity, he is required to report them. You're interpolating your own definition of "significant" by saying "you're trying to get the character removed". That's not what you're doing. You're reporting what you believe to be a significantly evil act, nothing more. The only thing you are saying is "This act seems significant enough to report to the Triad", i.e., that it's not inconsequential. It doesn't need to be enough on it's own to warrant an evil alignment, and the Triad's decision is not "evil or not evil" based on the act alone (which is explicit in the LGCS as well). Your suggestion eliminates the possibility of a PC turning evil based on a patter of significant evil acts, no single one of which would be sufficient to change the PC. Since that possibility is explicitly part of the process (in both the LGCS and in Circle writings on this board), your suggestion cannot eliminate it...You're essentially changing the criteria from "significantly" to "grossly" or "conclusively" without having any basis for doing so.
Timlagor 04-03-07, 03:03 PM	If you report an Evil act, you are trying to get the caracter removed. That may not be your intention, but that is what you are doing. Once you report an Evil act the Triad and then Circle have only two responses: A: That is not Evil enough; keep playing. B: The character is now Evil. Turn in your character sheet and AR's. So, if you do not think that an action is worthy of character removal, do not report it. That does not preclude making notes on the offender's AR so that the next judge has a bit more info on whether removal is warranted. C. That character is at serious risk of becoming Evil if he repeats that behaviour. D. That character is not Evil but may become so if there are many more reports of it. The Triad should be told any time an Evil act is notedon an AR.
_metz_ 04-04-07, 08:25 AM	If it alone was sufficient to get my character banned, I would inquire as to why I was given access. It was just a funky idea, might jokingly pretend to be a necromancer (the character is going to have spymaster levels) Now there is something fun and interesting...
pedr 04-04-07, 09:17 AM	I don't think that using a scroll of animate dead ought to get your character removed. However, I think that the triad ought to keep an eye on PCs who use scrolls of animate dead, so I'd report it, so that they can monitor whether this is a regular occurance or not. I don't think the triad needs to keep an eye on PCs who cast inflict light wounds a few times a module, so I wouldn't report it. A few times a day and I probably would :) I think that the triad needs to seriously consider removing a PC who, for instance, sets fire to an inn containing innocent people in otder to stop a relatively worthless bad-guy get away with the loot that he wants. So I'd report that in slightly more strident tones! I think that's an accurate portrayal of the spread of responsibility a DM has under the new rules, and I think it makes sense. Now, this only works if the triad is being reasonable and responsible, but I tend to assume that's the case.
Zanzibax 04-04-07, 04:16 PM	Here is an interesting question: My character has a scroll of animate dead - he acquired it legally in a module. /me calls the Keoland Darkwatch immediately
MichaelAhlf 04-04-07, 05:35 PM	This sort of circular logic confuses and concerns me. I know that the BK has a different way of looking things. One of the "top 10" from one of our shirts is "This would get your character pulled in most regions." However, I've seen rebuking clerics (LN followers of Wee Jas) who had to tread a fine line. I have a friend who since moved to another region for college, who deliberately played a necromancer whose goal and purpose was to collect enemies from early encounters and use them in later ones. While these are technically evil acts, nowhere in the LGCS does it say how to notate the good acts that may counterbalance this, and I can see a group of people (not our Triad, who have a pretty good handle on this, but other regional triads) pulling characters just because they keep getting reports, with no recourse for the player who's only guilty of trying to play an interesting character.
Timlagor 04-04-07, 08:25 PM	I think most (if not all) Triads actually have a pretty good handle on this. I believe that the people with the 'crazy' attitudes are all 'just players/judges'. Two points for the concerned player though: - There is nothing to say you can't get judges to note your good acts as well - When a judge reports an Evil Act they are supposed to also report any and all mitigating circumstances (which would imo include notably good acts performed in the module). - Triads have to get it confirmed by the Circle when they 'yank' someone and the player can (attempt to) appeal the verdict. In practice there has not been a rash of characters getting taken out of the campaign and nor is one expected.
_metz_ 04-04-07, 09:47 PM	hey thanks to LG, my character technically has a million "good" points, so a couple evil here and there technically shouldn't shift the axis too much, the issue is its never been codified.