Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Umbra_Kaitou 02-22-06, 08:37 PM	First, I apologise if this is in the worng forum, however sence this is a character for greyhawk and thus faces certain restrictions i figured i'd try here. Anyway, as you can probably glean from the title, i am planning a monk character for Greyhawk, and was trying to find what is/ if there is a good prestige class to aim for. As I am aware the only really monkish prestige classes are the Arcane and Divine Fists and the Tatooed Monk. I was wondering if there were any other options and if any were particularly good to aim for. I like the style of the Diciple of the eye from the new races of dragon but that doesnt work for a human monk. THanks for your help, ~Umbra
Jedi_Alec_Swann 02-22-06, 09:03 PM	I dont like any of the prestige classes designed for monks. I also think monks get better as they go up and dont need any other class to be useful
JohnduBois 02-22-06, 09:05 PM	Reaping Mauler from Complete Warrior also works rather well for a Strength-based monk.
Sieylianna 02-22-06, 10:14 PM	There is also Drunken Master, but it has a bad reputation and access is extremely limited. Ed
Iswald 02-22-06, 10:35 PM	I advise against sacred fist. However, tattooed monk works well. Reaping mauler is not too impressive. Depending upon what you're doing, you could go for exotic weapon master or branch out in some other direction from monk into a melee orientated PrC possibly with divine spellcasting.
Lupo 02-24-06, 08:51 AM	one of my characters is a half-orc monk, i am planning to make him a pious templar of pholtus (or maybe zodal, just for fun). consider other goods with quarterstaff or unarmed strike. although the complete divine states that monks are unlikely to go this path, i want to see, how evasion + mettle + smite + paladin spells work :-). ciao martin m.
Reylance 02-24-06, 09:36 AM	Right now, monk is one of two base classes I don't have on any of my characters. But I'll toss out some ideas anyway. I thought a build using one of the Ascetic X feats in Complete Adventurer would be interesting. (Those are the ones that enable monk-paladin, monk-ranger, monk-rogue, and monk-sorcerer combinations.) Some of those are better used with a build with minimum monk levels, though, such as the primary ranger archer who uses two monk levels for evasion, grappling, and powerful attacks of opportunity against anyone who thinks he doesn't threaten. A monk-master thrower with a high Strength and throwing shuriken might be interesting. Still, monk is a class that's good to keep going all the way to 20th level.
Lupo 02-24-06, 05:02 PM	Right now, monk is one of two base classes I don't have on any of my characters. But I'll toss out some ideas anyway. I thought a build using one of the Ascetic X feats in Complete Adventurer would be interesting. (Those are the ones that enable monk-paladin, monk-ranger, monk-rogue, and monk-sorcerer combinations.) Some of those are better used with a build with minimum monk levels, though, such as the primary ranger archer who uses two monk levels for evasion, grappling, and powerful attacks of opportunity against anyone who thinks he doesn't threaten. A monk-master thrower with a high Strength and throwing shuriken might be interesting. Still, monk is a class that's good to keep going all the way to 20th level. master thrower with shuriken has the dreaded shuriken problem, they are treated as amunition and get destroid after one throw . . . . . ciao martin m.
JamesMaissen 02-25-06, 05:01 AM	master thrower with shuriken has the dreaded shuriken problem, they are treated as amunition and get destroid after one throw . . . . . ciao martin m. Funny I thought it was the great shuriken advantage.. a single GMW will enchant 50 of them at a time. But back to the basic question: what to do with a monk? A monk is a tough LG character to play. Why? Because a monk is probably the most dynamically dependant character out there. Depending on the level of support you can get from fellow party members you can go from lemming to superhero. What this means in practice is that you can almost never go on autopilot, but rather have to adapt to the party you find yourself in. Some monks tend to overspecialise to avoid this. Some become grapplers extraordinaire, some focus on other aspects that the monk abilities can lend themselves towards. In my mind a monk can probably do many roles slightly less wonderfully than just one without giving up on others. However then they are more at the mercy of who they are playing with as to level of support and resources. So I would suggest two things. First don't make a monk as your first character. Make a barbarian or other front line fighter. Get the feel for both LG and how nasty the front line can be. Then make your monk with this in mind and always remember what all you have and don't have with him. Second I would determine if you are going to adventure with the same group on a regular basis or not. Make choices based upon this group if you have that luxury. If not then decide what you will do with no support as well as with varying degrees of support. Don't invest too much in one thing or style but try to fill whatever 'gaps' a party seems to have at the time. It's a hard road and I wish you the best of luck with it. Done masterfully it won't shine through to many unless they see you in multiple roles with divergent groups. Again, I think a pure monk can be a very hard thing to play (ideally) in LG. Either work very hard at being dynamic and responding to variable parties, or become less of a monk and more of this or that specialist. Good luck, James PS: Sacred Fists can be very strong, I'm not sure why someone else said anything against them.
Iswald 02-25-06, 05:49 AM	PS: Sacred Fists can be very strong, I'm not sure why someone else said anything against them. In LG, the limitations are overwhelming. If you can freely select spells, feats, templates, etc from additional sources, they might be better.
solbergb 02-25-06, 03:55 PM	Ok...first consider going to the "lgchardiscussion" group on Yahoo, all we talk about there is the issues of character builds in LG. You'll get a lot of feedback there. I play a L11 half-orc monk who took the unusual step of dumping wisdom. He's been very successful but I do have to play to his strengths (doing a front line fighter with 15 AC at level 11 is challenging at times). The biggest piece of advice I can give you is to give your monk a decent strength score. IMHO it is every bit as important as wisdom, and the "weapon finesse/dodge/mobility/spring attack" approach to building a monk is a trap - nearly every "monks are ineffectual" example I've seen has been one of those, either when discussed in other campaigns or in one case one that I played with at the table. Such a monk can stay alive, but adds nothing to the party. In general, monks have terrific defense already, with perfect saves, generally decent attributes in everything that helps saves, many immunities, high mobility (including the key tumble and balance skills which help both defense and let you operate smoothly where your enemies are hindered) and an intersting sliding scale of tactical feats+armor class that starts out "grapple/stun fist is uber, my AC is weak" in the beginning level and ends up with "grapple/trip/stun fist don't work vs a lot of opponents but my AC is finally strong" at higher levels. What that means is that feats should usually be oriented toward offense, either improving stunning fist, or getting more attacks via the combat reflexes tree, or doing more damage per hit, especially when you can't flurry. Here's the attribute breakdown. I rate str/wisdom equal, dex/con second tier below that, intelligence third, charisma can be dumped (and if you don't dump it you will usually suffer somewhere). Strength: powers to-hit, damage in flurry, grapple, trip and indirectly disarm. Also affects climb, jump and swim. Dex: powers combat reflexes, provides defense (AC and reflex save). Also affects balance, tumble (and move silent/hide) Con: provides defense (hitpoints and fort save). While it does not provide other benefits, hitpoints matter a lot to a monk that won't have better than moderate AC most of his career, has a relatively small hitdie for a fighter etc. Intelligence: Provides all those skills the other attributes power. The monk skill list has more good skills than you'll have points for. Also affects knowledge skills, and is required for combat expertise if you want to go that route (most consider getting improved trip without expertise a bonus and don't bother with expertise unless they're very defensively oriented) Wisdom: powers stunning fist, provides defense (AC and will saves). Also affects spot, listen, sense motive Charisma: affects diplomacy (and nothing else unless you're multiclassing) Monk exit points: L1, usually with improved grapple as the bonus feat. L2, usually with combat reflexes as the bonus feat L4, save and BAB breakpoint, fists are now magic L6, save breakpoint, usually taken for improved trip L11, improved flurry. No PRC improves flurry progression L12, save and BAB breakpoint, abundant step and next level spell resistance can screw up party member's abilites to heal/buff you in combat. There is nothing wrong with going monk all the way to 16. Spell resistance can also be a boon (I watched a monk save the whole party from a blasphemy once...it outleveled him a bit but the SR check failed...), and adamantine fists at retirement are kind of nice. Monk PRC's all require at least one useless feat and also a generous chunk of your skill points into (usually) a knowledge skill. Monks never have enough feats, so this cost is very real. Be sure what you get is worth what you give up, and try to time the "useless" feat right before you exit monk, so you only lose one level before the PRC starts paying back.
solbergb 02-25-06, 04:01 PM	Some monks tend to overspecialise to avoid this. Some become grapplers extraordinaire, some focus on other aspects that the monk abilities can lend themselves towards. In my mind a monk can probably do many roles slightly less wonderfully than just one without giving up on others. However then they are more at the mercy of who they are playing with as to level of support and resources. So I would suggest two things. First don't make a monk as your first character. Make a barbarian or other front line fighter. Get the feel for both LG and how nasty the front line can be. Then make your monk with this in mind and always remember what all you have and don't have with him. . This is good advice (even though I ignored it, I'm a veteran player and knew what I was getting myself into when I did a monk as my first char in LG). I chose to focus on everything about a monk EXCEPT wisdom (stun fist+AC). My will saves suffer a little, but not much compared to other frontline fighters (Burke once shook off 4 charm monster spells in one round, from Bhargests...and I don't remember any specific instances of will saves hosing him, but there must be one or two in 11 levels - his will save isn't THAT great, even with still mind. One ph killer made it to the fort save, but he stopped it there....) Monks are terrific instruments to hang spells on, the extra attacks and their cockroach-like durabiltiy vs spells and their mobility means they both get more out of attack buffs and aren't removed from play right after you wasted several spells on them. Operating without buffs, a monk needs his own potions of enlarge person, magic weapon/magic fang, shillelagh, mage armor and prot evil. You DO have to adapt yourself to each and every party, sometimes playing "rogue/flanker" sometimes being "the tank", sometimes being "bait", someteims being setup artist and sometimes just transporting the "effective' person to a more useful location (a favorite tactic of mine when playing up, but it takes a big str to do it)...like moving the TWF halfling rogue into a nice flanking position in reach of the vitals of the Legendary T-Rex...
waerlinga 02-26-06, 08:27 PM	My halfling monk has been my main character since the premiere of LG years ago. I soon found out why Small races should never become monks: you will never be effective on the front lines. About the time he reached 3th level, I started considering multiclassing in wizard for more offensive power. We reached the first rebuild soon after, so I decided instead to go Rogue/Monk. Better on the front lines, but still weak on the offensive since more and more opponents became immune to Sneak Attack. His latest incarnation from the last rebuild went back to the original arcane monk idea. I took 1st level in Rogue, though, just for the skill points and some sneak attack damage (as Halfling this wouldn't affect multiclass XP) and eventually took Enlightened Fist (CA) as a PRC. Total classes/levels are Rog1/Mnk 2/Wiz 3/EnF4. Since Monk and EF stack for AC, Speed, and damage, you do get decent, though underpowered, fighting ability. The best way to look at this build, though, is as a physically pumped-up wizard, since EF gives +1 Arcane Spellcasting Level at most levels. You will be behind in top spells that you can cast, though the Practiced Spellcaster feat will allow you to negate the Caster Level loss from the initial monk (and rogue, in my case) levels you took so that damage and durations stay equal to a wizard of the same character level. I like it as a very versatile character build, allowing me to fill several different roles depending upon the party with which I am playing. Building up a good spellbook is key, however. With spells like Mage Armor, Shield, Cat's Grace, Displacement, and the controversial Polymorph you can get a very decent AC for front-line work. A good range of damage spells, including the Lesser Orbs to bypass SR and saves, allows you to fill in as a blaster when needed. I have even been a support wizard using buff spells while on the front-lines. By using the Arcane Fist ability and casting defensively during a full-attack action, I'd use one attack to do a little subdual damage to an ally in exchange for Displacement on him/her (most allies thought it was a good trade, but be sure to ask first). You can then take the rest of your attacks on the enemy or, if you missed your ally, hold the charge and try again until you succeed. There are almost too many good touch Buff spells to pick from for this trick. With this build, however, I'd have to disagree with the latest posts on Str being the main stat. Dex/Wis and then Int/Con are the key for this build. Dex helps with AC, attack (with Weapon Finesse), ranged touch attacks, and Reflex saves (Evasion!). Wis helps the monk abilities, including AC bonus, and Will saves. Int can stay in the 14-15 range if you wish, as you will not be casting high-level spells, but it will help with save DCs. All in all, I have loved playing this character even though it may not be the toughest or the most powerful monk in the game. I think the part I love most is a DM forgetting about my spellcasting while I'm flurrying away, only to have me drop a 10d6 fireball at ground-zero, using evasion to remain standing amidst the burning wreckage afterward. :D
Mommy was an Orc 02-26-06, 09:08 PM	Don't forget that Monk doesn't actually prohibit you from doing actions that go against the martial artist stereotype. My monk bought a Silver Greatsword and a Cold Iron Spiked Chain. He also bought Leather Armor. Now granted, I'm going with Monk 2/Sorcerer 1/Paladin 2/Enlightened Fist 10 - but he's only Monk 2 at the moment. Spiked Chain - uses it to make trip attacks to ensure his Stunning Fist strikes actually hit. Free shots. Silver Greatsword - he'll eventually have proficiency and comparing it against a silver kama, he's essentially getting Power Attack for free at the moment. Worst case scenario, my guy goes in for a grapple after handing it off to a BDF who forgot to get a golfbag. At level 4, things get pretty interesting with Smite+Fist of Stone. Leather Armor - I'll give up Flurry of Blows to ensure that my AC isn't that bad. Also, this means I have a move action to drop the chain and draw the Greatsword after I successfully trip something with an AoO. Coincidence that the +4 for target being prone cancels out the non-proficiency penalty? I think not. :) Once I get Sorcerer, I'll be able to cast Mage Armor and that will fix a few problems...
TimRat 03-02-06, 02:14 PM	i probably dont have much to add since there have been a lot of indepth posts already but my high level LG character (the one i created when the campaign first started all those years ago) was a monk and he got to level 15. that was about a year and half ago (so i think i was the highest level straight monk in the campaign). anyways all i needed was a cleric to cast greater magic weapon and had like four or five attacks at over +20 (going off the top of my head, haven't pulled him out in a long time) get a monk's belt and basically your treated as being lvl 20. i had an AC of like 35 or so? my touch AC was about the same since all of it applied to that (even the bracers when it came to incorporeal attacks). i didn't go with Strength however as i just relied on bull's strength or spells to boost up that part of it i went with lots of attacks at a high to hit roll and made up for it with that. granted not as powerful as an archer of the same level but it was a fun character to play.
redgamer 03-03-06, 02:53 PM	Hehe, not as powerful as an archer. I wish my archer wasn't the least powerful character at every table. The nice thing about archer and monks is that they don't have as many areas that demand spending money. Archers can use distance as their defense and thus spend a greater proportion of their wealth on offense. Monk can use their class abilities and more efficient use of buffs (compared to fighter) to power their offense and spend a greater portion of wealth on defense. A fighter needs to spend significant money on both weapons and armor. I didn't realize this going in and thus built an archer with too low strength and too cheap of a bow. I'm working on fixing that as I get more money. With buffs a monk can do great damage. Without buffs only a few monk builds can do great damage. Monks do however get a bunch of tricks they can choose to specialize in besides damage.
Umbra_Kaitou 03-03-06, 03:37 PM	Wow, thanks a bunch for all the great advise For the record, this wouldn't be my first character, i currently have a level 4 rogue. After going through the COmplete Warrior feats i found some interesting ones that lead be to choose this build: (may be slightly off stats wise as the computer i had the build on died and i'm doing it from memory) STR: 13 DEX: 14 CON: 12 INT: 10 (or 12 I forget) WIS: 14 CHA:10 Human Monk Starting Feats: Stunning Fist, Power Attack, and Weamon Focus 3rd: Fists of iron (+1d6 in exchange for a stunning blow chance) 6th: Flying Kick (+1d12 on charge just sounds fun) 9th: Extra Stunning (more fists of iron) 12th: Maybe Weakening touch if i continueto always boost wisdom I'd definitly be interested on getting feedback for this build
Thyaxsis 03-03-06, 04:24 PM	There is also Drunken Master, but it has a bad reputation and access is extremely limited. Ed Just out of curiosity, why does a drunken master have a bad reputation? This is the whole premiss of my monk due to the fact that he saw his parents killed and was raised by dwarfs on their ale? (he is human) Thanks!
solbergb 03-03-06, 04:53 PM	Wow, thanks a bunch for all the great advise For the record, this wouldn't be my first character, i currently have a level 4 rogue. After going through the COmplete Warrior feats i found some interesting ones that lead be to choose this build: (may be slightly off stats wise as the computer i had the build on died and i'm doing it from memory) STR: 13 DEX: 14 CON: 12 INT: 10 (or 12 I forget) WIS: 14 CHA:10 Human Monk Starting Feats: Stunning Fist, Power Attack, and Weamon Focus 3rd: Fists of iron (+1d6 in exchange for a stunning blow chance) 6th: Flying Kick (+1d12 on charge just sounds fun) 9th: Extra Stunning (more fists of iron) 12th: Maybe Weakening touch if i continueto always boost wisdom I'd definitly be interested on getting feedback for this build Well first of all you shorted yourself some points. You get 28 in LG, not 25. Put those extra 3 points into strength and constitution (14 in each) and you're at a fairly normal place for a monk (although 2 points into charisma isn't what you'd choose as a power choice, those points would do you more good in str or wisdom (whichever you intend to raise, or even intelligence, for more skill points. If you put the extra skill point into diplomacy, you'll have a much more personable character with 12 int/8 cha than 10/10. I would recommend improved grapple rather than weapon focus. Grappling is just fantastic in the lower levels, and having the option to do it instead of stunning fist is nice, plus it is a useful "shutdown" option or "defense" option at all levels vs some opponents. It's hard to say no to power attack, it is a useful arrow in the quiver, but be aware you'll usually only use it when uberbuffed or maybe when charging. With only 14 str and monk BAB, you'll need all your attack mods just to hit thins.
Sieylianna 03-03-06, 04:59 PM	Starting Feats: Stunning Fist, Power Attack, and Weamon Focus I'd definitly be interested on getting feedback for this build You can't take weapon focus at 1st level because you don't have a +1 BAB. Ed
Umbra_Kaitou 03-03-06, 05:22 PM	You can't take weapon focus at 1st level because you don't have a +1 BAB. Ed Hmmm, so it would seem, my mistake I suppose i'll take the advice on Improved Grapple then over weapon focus then as for my points total being off, I hope to get the computer where the file was lost on up and running soon, otherwise i'll have to re total all the stats, when I do i'll keep your advice in mind, thanks I just have the CHR at 10 because I dont particularly like to have negatives on any rolls, plus in theory that would mean i had either an ugly or immpersonal character >>
ShinAkuma2 03-03-06, 05:27 PM	A Monk is one of the few characters that can easily get away with dumping charisma. A monastic life doesn't lend itself toward interpersonal communication.
GrahamWills 03-17-06, 01:47 AM	I have a 6 Monk, Wood elf, who I built essentially with equal STR, DEX, CON, WIS and nothing in CHA and INT. 6 is a decent exit point for a monk, and I'll be taking my next level as Ranger very soon. I absolutely agree that you might have very different roles in different parties. What I really like is that I can be very effective in those roles. Times I have excelled at: * Fighting mind-controlling things. Monk+Elf+WIS = great saves. * Grappling fun. Carry scrolls of enlarge for casters to use on you and instant fun. * Spot + Listen. Around 18 at level 6, plus I'm a non-spellcasting elf. Two watches. * Rescuing people. Tumble through opponents to go full defense (tumble bonus) * Running down people who try to escape. * Fighting in 3D. Down is easy, you also jump well and move well. * Providing flanking. * "Please hand over your wepons before X". It happens in a ton of mods. * Improved disarm at 6. Enlarged with Q-staff gives BAB + STR + 12 Things that you make a great second best at: * Melee. Not as good as a fighter, but shillelagh + flurry isn't bad. And it's cheap. * Archer. +3 str bonus with a mwk composite longbow. 2 levels of ranger for rapid shot * Trap detector. OK, so it's mainly being hit and using evasion. but with no thief ... * Scout. Did I mention the Spot+Listen checks? And you can run for help fast! * Lie detector. Who else has sense motive? The trick with a monk is work out what to do in your group. In a fighter-heavy group, you might be the thief-subsitute. You might be the only uncharmed / not running away combat player after a spell or two, you may be grappling and pinning, but you won't be dealing damage. Use the bow. If there's a rogue in the party, work with them to provide flanks. If there's an arcane, pass them the mage armor and enlarge scrolls to make you a serious fighter. To keep the character fun, i'd suggest picking something to be extra good at. There are no great monkish PrCs, so no feat constraints -- have fun! I went with Spot/Listen as my best bets, but becoming a manic grappler is a great option, or a disarmer/tripper. Or something like sense motive - not hard to be the most 'sensitive' member of a group and it's more useful than you might think. So overall my suggested build is Monk6, picking up whichever feats you think will be *fun* and support what you'd like to be best at, then take a combat class for a few more levels. Remeber you won't want armor as you look. Prestige classes to look at include: Tattoed Monk - Looks like 5 levels needed here to be really fun Thief/Acrobat - Nice extra movement abilities complement monk classes Otherwise, look at prestige classes for your second class.