Shadow dancer question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Shadow dancer question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
control freak
07-02-07, 09:05 PM at our store there is a Rogue5 ftr1 shadow dancer 2 and first thing he tells the DM "i hide in my comrads shadows unless otherwise noted or i get moved more then 10 ft from a shadow in which case i DO NOT move there i never move more then 10 ft from a shadow and he opens the doors and a person shoots at him and he asks "how he cant see me" tremor sence "i have darkstalker (or something close to that) so he cant even do that"

ok.... (he proceeds to throw daggers at his opponents and rapire him to death and the party watches with the watch throu eyes spell or some such waiting at the edge ) to which i respond

"thats just wrong theres gota be a way to see you"
his only responce is
"unless you can detect living beings with something like a undead sence life spell you simply cannot"

and he basicaly is able to do stupid stuff ALLL the time all he asks is for the rest of the table to wait all of 20 seconds and you will have a very easy time compaired to anything else (ever seen a chargeing minotaur drop to 3 attacks of oppertuneity with 6d4, and 9d4 and +6 from STR and +1 whepon) we found it funny that it fell at our feets

does this work, and if so is it REALLY this broken

and more importantly if this is the case.... O.O why has no one broken this if thats true
clannagh
07-02-07, 09:23 PM among other things he can also be heard or smelt

nor is he invisible just hidden ... and once he attacks he is not hidden .. he needs to hide again with a penalty.
Arvagor
07-02-07, 09:26 PM Regardless of whether the PC has the Darkstalker feat (from Lords of Madness), and/or the Hide in Plain Sight (HIPS) ability from the Shadowdancer PrC, he is still required to make Hide checks which are opposed by his opponents' Spot checks -- neither HIPS not Darkstalker renders the PC invisible...
control freak
07-02-07, 09:41 PM well hide checks arent an issue and niether is the move silently because he has a + 30 or so to each and rolls rediculously high( lowest he has ever had on a hide check while i was DMing was 42 and i watched him roll and even checked his +es and hes got it all and as for smelt i dk that might work but i would have to see what other feats he has because hes geared to never be seen

and he takes the penalty and always beats the spot and listen stuff if it really is that broken then why hasnt any one else broken it?
bitznarf
07-02-07, 11:56 PM One more thing, Rogue5/Fighter1/Shadowdancer2 is not possible, you need 10 ranks in hide to enter the class, making your 8th level your first possible shadowdancer level.
clannagh
07-03-07, 12:04 AM well hide checks arent an issue and niether is the move silently because he has a + 30 or so to each and rolls rediculously high( lowest he has ever had on a hide check while i was DMing was 42 and i watched him roll and even checked his +es and hes got it all and as for smelt i dk that might work but i would have to see what other feats he has because hes geared to never be seen

and he takes the penalty and always beats the spot and listen stuff if it really is that broken then why hasnt any one else broken it?

all shadow dancer does is allow him to hide whilst being observed

it does not make hiding a free action .. unless he has a feat that lets him hide as a free action he is going to need to either move or use an action to hide

nor does it negate the effect of things like glitterdust
Some_call_me_Tim
07-03-07, 08:13 PM One more thing, Rogue5/Fighter1/Shadowdancer2 is not possible, you need 10 ranks in hide to enter the class, making your 8th level your first possible shadowdancer level.Good catch! :cookie:
It sounds like someone out there needs a character audit.

well hide checks arent an issue and niether is the move silently because he has a + 30 or so to each and rolls rediculously high( lowest he has ever had on a hide check while i was DMing was 42 and i watched him roll and even checked his +es and hes got it all and as for smelt i dk that might work but i would have to see what other feats he has because hes geared to never be seen

and he takes the penalty and always beats the spot and listen stuff if it really is that broken then why hasnt any one else broken it?I am a bit suspicious here. +30 check at 8th level? Even with a -20 penalty he is still unseen? My wife plays a shadowdancer and built for sniping and such. Even her 13th level character is spotted sometimes.

Let's see here
11 ranks in Hide
+5 Dexterity bonus (assuming 20 DEX)
+3 skill focus(hide)
+5 cloak of elvenkind or armor of shadow (competence bonuses don't stack)

That's only +24. Unless he sunk a lot of money into improved shadow armor or some such, I'm wondering how we did it.

In your minotaur example, a lowly CR 4 critter has +7 spot so if the shadowdancer has +30 with a -20 penalty for attacking that still means a lowly minotaur should spot him about 1/3 of the time. If he gets lucky and rolls high, not too much you can do about that.

To misquote an old saying, "If a character seems too good to be true, it probably is." I'm not saying he's definitely cheating but the numbers don't seem to be adding up. Either he's stacking bonuses he shouldn't, not taking enough penalties, or you ain't trying hard enough as DM.

My experience seeing a shadowdancer fight in over 100 combats is that sniping works well most of the time but the damage is not a game breaker nor is hiding all the time invincible at the appropriate APL.
control freak
07-03-07, 09:13 PM edit i am sorry he i mistyped his level of rogue and he has a 22 dex+4 dex from gloves and +4 small size to hide and cloke of elven kind and the boots for+5 MS

and he is the DM that is notrious for rollinf up the 21 natural 20s in a row in frount of a party on 4 different dice (5,5,7,4 in times rolled) so the high rolls are whats doing it
Lupo
07-03-07, 09:17 PM Good catch! :cookie:
It sounds like someone out there needs a character audit.

I am a bit suspicious here. +30 check at 8th level? Even with a -20 penalty he is still unseen? My wife plays a shadowdancer and built for sniping and such. Even her 13th level character is spotted sometimes.

Let's see here
11 ranks in Hide
+5 Dexterity bonus (assuming 20 DEX)
+3 skill focus(hide)
+5 cloak of elvenkind or armor of shadow (competence bonuses don't stack)

That's only +24. Unless he sunk a lot of money into improved shadow armor or some such, I'm wondering how we did it.

halfling or gnome would add another +4 for being small, and the "stealthy" feat grants another +2 on "hide" and "move silently". maybe a crazy meta-organization is handing out boni too ;)

but anyway with a -20 for attacking the hiding becomes quite difficult even with a skill in the 30ies and especially against anything like: bats, lifesense, scent or tremorsense.

ciao

martin m.
evilaustintom
07-03-07, 09:17 PM Aside from the things mentioned above, I’ll throw out a few thoughts…

1. Readied actions can still hit this guy. If he is constantly trying to solo battles, monsters (particularly competent ones at APL 10) should be able to coordinate vs his hit and hide tactics. Of course, AOE spells can also be used.

2. +30 around APL 10 is good, but not unbeatable. If he is really rolling that good, then that’s part of the reason he is doing so well. However, a vampire cleric or some other creature with good Spot checks could easily ruin his day.

3. Hiding is usually part of a move action. If he surprises the monsters, he only gets a single action (not an action and a move action to hide). He could easily be hit if he doesn’t win initiative in the first full round of combat.

Tom Thowe
control freak
07-03-07, 09:33 PM with a + 12 to initative and his stupid ablity to roll high (the real reason hes such a good player and why his characters are broken) hes not lost initative to any one in a LONG while (i think once an air elemental tied him and beat him in the tie breaker but thats about it)

(+8 dex from 22 dex and +4 dex gloves and +4 from Imp initative)

i will actualy start a new thread for this question but think about it

what do you do about high rollers?
JJeff
07-04-07, 01:48 AM My local +30 Hide/MS check halfing does the same thing, but still gets seen pretty much at APL 6 and 8 adventures (Maybe cos we live in Perrenland and IUZ mods kinda...well... have extremes)

It is possible to have creatures spot him, but any smart BBEG would use what the PCs are famous for using against creatures they can't see: Glitterdust, Greased and smokey passageways, even Flour (yes, my PCs have used flour)... I had a BBEG Spike Stone an entire cavern entrance once just to make reaching her a pain too...
Amurayi
07-04-07, 07:55 AM Something else to consider: The Shadowdancers "Hide in Plain Sight" ability is a supernatural ability which requires a Standard action to activate (as opposed to the extra-ordinary ability of the ranger) as it isn't stated otherwise in the describtion of the ability.

Also: You need to have concealment or cover to stay hidden. You can't declare "to be hidden" in an empty room. Therefore: If your friend opens a door (assuming he stands in front of it) and an enemy is right behind the door he is no longer hidden to this enemy.
awroe
07-04-07, 01:32 PM Something else to consider: The Shadowdancers "Hide in Plain Sight" ability is a supernatural ability which requires a Standard action to activate (as opposed to the extra-ordinary ability of the ranger) as it isn't stated otherwise in the describtion of the ability.

Also: You need to have concealment or cover to stay hidden. You can't declare "to be hidden" in an empty room. Therefore: If your friend opens a door (assuming he stands in front of it) and an enemy is right behind the door he is no longer hidden to this enemy.

The first point has been debated, and I would certainly rule that it takes no action as it is merely alters the hide skill. If you require activation - fine, activate it once at the start of the day. It has no duration mentioned or conditions for ending the activation of the ability.

The second point is just not true. The Shadowdancer ability specifically states: "a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind", thus meaning no cover / concealment is required.
CSHunt68
07-04-07, 04:54 PM Reading the FAQ entry regarding "Hide in Plain Sight", it's not entirely clear, unfortunately.
awroe
07-04-07, 06:10 PM Reading the FAQ entry regarding "Hide in Plain Sight", it's not entirely clear, unfortunately.

There's a FAQ entry about it?

Hmm, if you're talking about the entry on Spring Attack, HiPS and Camouflage, I would say this is talking specifically about the Ranger version of HiPS, which has a different definition from the Shadowdancer one - the ranger version doesn't specify that cover isn't needed, while the SD one does.
CSHunt68
07-04-07, 07:07 PM There's a FAQ entry about it?

Hmm, if you're talking about the entry on Spring Attack, HiPS and Camouflage, I would say this is talking specifically about the Ranger version of HiPS, which has a different definition from the Shadowdancer one - the ranger version doesn't specify that cover isn't needed, while the SD one does.
That would be fine if one supposes that the Ranger Hide in Plain Sight and the Shadowdancer Hide in Plain Sight are different, and not just triggered in different environments.
Anyway, your saying "I would say" should be indicative of the possibility of different interpretations of that, right?
bitznarf
07-04-07, 07:24 PM Note that some of the different ways to get Evasion (Rogue/Monk/Shadowdancer vs Ring of Evasion) have different restrictions on their use. In the same way the various Hide in Plain Sight abilities can trigger on different things and work in different fashions.
Mommy was an Orc
07-04-07, 08:57 PM What other people have said - how would your character react to this. Most monsters aren't that stupid. Ready to attack when he pops up, hit him with magic is will/fort save based, and he's probably toast. Or a grapple. Even if he hides, it isn't impossible to know what square he ended up in. If the monster tries to grapple him, he does have the option of making an AoO, but then he loses concealment.

Also, in most situations, think exactly about what he's doing - he may be doing damage without much fear of reprisal, but just how much damage is he doing compared to everyone else? 20-30 hp a round from 1 attack(or else he isn't going back into hiding) - what's preventing the monsters from targeting the actual threats in the party? Just because a tactic is annoying doesn't actually make it an important threat.

Finally, there should be a relatively easy way to end the d20 threats - make him roll all dice at once and make sure he rolls at least 3 in every circumstance. It will speed up game play and if he rolls a d20 and say 6d6 of damage in one hand, it should be exceptionally difficult for him, even unintentionally, to manipulate the rolls.
awroe
07-05-07, 05:08 AM Anyway, your saying "I would say" should be indicative of the possibility of different interpretations of that, right?

It means that anything can be interpreted in many ways and I hadn't thought this one through completely.

Let's look at the texts in question:

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): While in any sort of natural terrain, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while
being observed.

Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow

The first sentence clearly states that the shadowdancer can hide while being observed. The second clearly states that the shadowdancer does not need something to hide behind while near a shadow. There should be no question of requiring cover / concealment as it is explicitly stated the shadowdancer can "hide without anything to hide behind". Note that the shadowdancer ability has a quite different description from the ranger ability.

A character with the hide in plain sight class feature
(described on page 48 in the Player’s Handbook)

Now consider the specific part of the FAQ that references an ability called Hide in Plain Sight. First, note that the FAQ cannot introduce new rules, merely clarify existing rules. Only the Errata can change the rules. Second, note the explicit reference to PHB p48 (the Ranger class abilities), which clarifies which abilities are being discussed within the question.

I think it is quite clear that the FAQ reference is talking specifically about the Ranger class abilities Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight, and that the difference in the description of the abilities between Ranger and Shadowdancer means that the FAQ is clearly not applicable.

I would welcome any arguments that disprove this.
control freak
07-05-07, 01:42 PM so he can open doors and stay hidden, because the door has a shadow
awroe
07-05-07, 07:34 PM so he can open doors and stay hidden, because the door has a shadow

Assuming there is a light source and there is not total daylight, I can't see why not. A shadowdancer should be able to follow someone using the person's shadow to hide in. Unless it was a beholder, in which case 'ware the Anti-Magic effect.

Of course, if the door / person makes any sound, a listen check can tell something is there. You may also be able to rule that the dancer must make another hide check for the changed circumstances, giving a chance for a low roll - I haven't looked at the details for that.

And as has been said, Glitterdust is a good way of finding someone - -40 to hide is likely to enable anyone to see them.
Timlagor
07-05-07, 07:47 PM I thought there was a ruling that you couldn't hide in a person's shadow... maybe it's only your own shadow.
awroe
07-05-07, 07:52 PM I thought there was a ruling that you couldn't hide in a person's shadow... maybe it's only your own shadow.

The ability states you can't hide in your own shadow - I don't know of anything mentioning other people's shadows

Or perhaps it's supposed to be within 10' of a Shadow, and is only usable once you get your companion :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
control freak 07-02-07, 09:05 PM	at our store there is a Rogue5 ftr1 shadow dancer 2 and first thing he tells the DM "i hide in my comrads shadows unless otherwise noted or i get moved more then 10 ft from a shadow in which case i DO NOT move there i never move more then 10 ft from a shadow and he opens the doors and a person shoots at him and he asks "how he cant see me" tremor sence "i have darkstalker (or something close to that) so he cant even do that" ok.... (he proceeds to throw daggers at his opponents and rapire him to death and the party watches with the watch throu eyes spell or some such waiting at the edge ) to which i respond "thats just wrong theres gota be a way to see you" his only responce is "unless you can detect living beings with something like a undead sence life spell you simply cannot" and he basicaly is able to do stupid stuff ALLL the time all he asks is for the rest of the table to wait all of 20 seconds and you will have a very easy time compaired to anything else (ever seen a chargeing minotaur drop to 3 attacks of oppertuneity with 6d4, and 9d4 and +6 from STR and +1 whepon) we found it funny that it fell at our feets does this work, and if so is it REALLY this broken and more importantly if this is the case.... O.O why has no one broken this if thats true
clannagh 07-02-07, 09:23 PM	among other things he can also be heard or smelt nor is he invisible just hidden ... and once he attacks he is not hidden .. he needs to hide again with a penalty.
Arvagor 07-02-07, 09:26 PM	Regardless of whether the PC has the Darkstalker feat (from Lords of Madness), and/or the Hide in Plain Sight (HIPS) ability from the Shadowdancer PrC, he is still required to make Hide checks which are opposed by his opponents' Spot checks -- neither HIPS not Darkstalker renders the PC invisible...
control freak 07-02-07, 09:41 PM	well hide checks arent an issue and niether is the move silently because he has a + 30 or so to each and rolls rediculously high( lowest he has ever had on a hide check while i was DMing was 42 and i watched him roll and even checked his +es and hes got it all and as for smelt i dk that might work but i would have to see what other feats he has because hes geared to never be seen and he takes the penalty and always beats the spot and listen stuff if it really is that broken then why hasnt any one else broken it?
bitznarf 07-02-07, 11:56 PM	One more thing, Rogue5/Fighter1/Shadowdancer2 is not possible, you need 10 ranks in hide to enter the class, making your 8th level your first possible shadowdancer level.
clannagh 07-03-07, 12:04 AM	well hide checks arent an issue and niether is the move silently because he has a + 30 or so to each and rolls rediculously high( lowest he has ever had on a hide check while i was DMing was 42 and i watched him roll and even checked his +es and hes got it all and as for smelt i dk that might work but i would have to see what other feats he has because hes geared to never be seen and he takes the penalty and always beats the spot and listen stuff if it really is that broken then why hasnt any one else broken it? all shadow dancer does is allow him to hide whilst being observed it does not make hiding a free action .. unless he has a feat that lets him hide as a free action he is going to need to either move or use an action to hide nor does it negate the effect of things like glitterdust
Some_call_me_Tim 07-03-07, 08:13 PM	One more thing, Rogue5/Fighter1/Shadowdancer2 is not possible, you need 10 ranks in hide to enter the class, making your 8th level your first possible shadowdancer level.Good catch! :cookie: It sounds like someone out there needs a character audit. well hide checks arent an issue and niether is the move silently because he has a + 30 or so to each and rolls rediculously high( lowest he has ever had on a hide check while i was DMing was 42 and i watched him roll and even checked his +es and hes got it all and as for smelt i dk that might work but i would have to see what other feats he has because hes geared to never be seen and he takes the penalty and always beats the spot and listen stuff if it really is that broken then why hasnt any one else broken it?I am a bit suspicious here. +30 check at 8th level? Even with a -20 penalty he is still unseen? My wife plays a shadowdancer and built for sniping and such. Even her 13th level character is spotted sometimes. Let's see here 11 ranks in Hide +5 Dexterity bonus (assuming 20 DEX) +3 skill focus(hide) +5 cloak of elvenkind or armor of shadow (competence bonuses don't stack) That's only +24. Unless he sunk a lot of money into improved shadow armor or some such, I'm wondering how we did it. In your minotaur example, a lowly CR 4 critter has +7 spot so if the shadowdancer has +30 with a -20 penalty for attacking that still means a lowly minotaur should spot him about 1/3 of the time. If he gets lucky and rolls high, not too much you can do about that. To misquote an old saying, "If a character seems too good to be true, it probably is." I'm not saying he's definitely cheating but the numbers don't seem to be adding up. Either he's stacking bonuses he shouldn't, not taking enough penalties, or you ain't trying hard enough as DM. My experience seeing a shadowdancer fight in over 100 combats is that sniping works well most of the time but the damage is not a game breaker nor is hiding all the time invincible at the appropriate APL.
control freak 07-03-07, 09:13 PM	edit i am sorry he i mistyped his level of rogue and he has a 22 dex+4 dex from gloves and +4 small size to hide and cloke of elven kind and the boots for+5 MS and he is the DM that is notrious for rollinf up the 21 natural 20s in a row in frount of a party on 4 different dice (5,5,7,4 in times rolled) so the high rolls are whats doing it
Lupo 07-03-07, 09:17 PM	Good catch! :cookie: It sounds like someone out there needs a character audit. I am a bit suspicious here. +30 check at 8th level? Even with a -20 penalty he is still unseen? My wife plays a shadowdancer and built for sniping and such. Even her 13th level character is spotted sometimes. Let's see here 11 ranks in Hide +5 Dexterity bonus (assuming 20 DEX) +3 skill focus(hide) +5 cloak of elvenkind or armor of shadow (competence bonuses don't stack) That's only +24. Unless he sunk a lot of money into improved shadow armor or some such, I'm wondering how we did it. halfling or gnome would add another +4 for being small, and the "stealthy" feat grants another +2 on "hide" and "move silently". maybe a crazy meta-organization is handing out boni too ;) but anyway with a -20 for attacking the hiding becomes quite difficult even with a skill in the 30ies and especially against anything like: bats, lifesense, scent or tremorsense. ciao martin m.
evilaustintom 07-03-07, 09:17 PM	Aside from the things mentioned above, I’ll throw out a few thoughts… 1. Readied actions can still hit this guy. If he is constantly trying to solo battles, monsters (particularly competent ones at APL 10) should be able to coordinate vs his hit and hide tactics. Of course, AOE spells can also be used. 2. +30 around APL 10 is good, but not unbeatable. If he is really rolling that good, then that’s part of the reason he is doing so well. However, a vampire cleric or some other creature with good Spot checks could easily ruin his day. 3. Hiding is usually part of a move action. If he surprises the monsters, he only gets a single action (not an action and a move action to hide). He could easily be hit if he doesn’t win initiative in the first full round of combat. Tom Thowe
control freak 07-03-07, 09:33 PM	with a + 12 to initative and his stupid ablity to roll high (the real reason hes such a good player and why his characters are broken) hes not lost initative to any one in a LONG while (i think once an air elemental tied him and beat him in the tie breaker but thats about it) (+8 dex from 22 dex and +4 dex gloves and +4 from Imp initative) i will actualy start a new thread for this question but think about it what do you do about high rollers?
JJeff 07-04-07, 01:48 AM	My local +30 Hide/MS check halfing does the same thing, but still gets seen pretty much at APL 6 and 8 adventures (Maybe cos we live in Perrenland and IUZ mods kinda...well... have extremes) It is possible to have creatures spot him, but any smart BBEG would use what the PCs are famous for using against creatures they can't see: Glitterdust, Greased and smokey passageways, even Flour (yes, my PCs have used flour)... I had a BBEG Spike Stone an entire cavern entrance once just to make reaching her a pain too...
Amurayi 07-04-07, 07:55 AM	Something else to consider: The Shadowdancers "Hide in Plain Sight" ability is a supernatural ability which requires a Standard action to activate (as opposed to the extra-ordinary ability of the ranger) as it isn't stated otherwise in the describtion of the ability. Also: You need to have concealment or cover to stay hidden. You can't declare "to be hidden" in an empty room. Therefore: If your friend opens a door (assuming he stands in front of it) and an enemy is right behind the door he is no longer hidden to this enemy.
awroe 07-04-07, 01:32 PM	Something else to consider: The Shadowdancers "Hide in Plain Sight" ability is a supernatural ability which requires a Standard action to activate (as opposed to the extra-ordinary ability of the ranger) as it isn't stated otherwise in the describtion of the ability. Also: You need to have concealment or cover to stay hidden. You can't declare "to be hidden" in an empty room. Therefore: If your friend opens a door (assuming he stands in front of it) and an enemy is right behind the door he is no longer hidden to this enemy. The first point has been debated, and I would certainly rule that it takes no action as it is merely alters the hide skill. If you require activation - fine, activate it once at the start of the day. It has no duration mentioned or conditions for ending the activation of the ability. The second point is just not true. The Shadowdancer ability specifically states: "a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind", thus meaning no cover / concealment is required.
CSHunt68 07-04-07, 04:54 PM	Reading the FAQ entry regarding "Hide in Plain Sight", it's not entirely clear, unfortunately.
awroe 07-04-07, 06:10 PM	Reading the FAQ entry regarding "Hide in Plain Sight", it's not entirely clear, unfortunately. There's a FAQ entry about it? Hmm, if you're talking about the entry on Spring Attack, HiPS and Camouflage, I would say this is talking specifically about the Ranger version of HiPS, which has a different definition from the Shadowdancer one - the ranger version doesn't specify that cover isn't needed, while the SD one does.
CSHunt68 07-04-07, 07:07 PM	There's a FAQ entry about it? Hmm, if you're talking about the entry on Spring Attack, HiPS and Camouflage, I would say this is talking specifically about the Ranger version of HiPS, which has a different definition from the Shadowdancer one - the ranger version doesn't specify that cover isn't needed, while the SD one does. That would be fine if one supposes that the Ranger Hide in Plain Sight and the Shadowdancer Hide in Plain Sight are different, and not just triggered in different environments. Anyway, your saying "I would say" should be indicative of the possibility of different interpretations of that, right?
bitznarf 07-04-07, 07:24 PM	Note that some of the different ways to get Evasion (Rogue/Monk/Shadowdancer vs Ring of Evasion) have different restrictions on their use. In the same way the various Hide in Plain Sight abilities can trigger on different things and work in different fashions.
Mommy was an Orc 07-04-07, 08:57 PM	What other people have said - how would your character react to this. Most monsters aren't that stupid. Ready to attack when he pops up, hit him with magic is will/fort save based, and he's probably toast. Or a grapple. Even if he hides, it isn't impossible to know what square he ended up in. If the monster tries to grapple him, he does have the option of making an AoO, but then he loses concealment. Also, in most situations, think exactly about what he's doing - he may be doing damage without much fear of reprisal, but just how much damage is he doing compared to everyone else? 20-30 hp a round from 1 attack(or else he isn't going back into hiding) - what's preventing the monsters from targeting the actual threats in the party? Just because a tactic is annoying doesn't actually make it an important threat. Finally, there should be a relatively easy way to end the d20 threats - make him roll all dice at once and make sure he rolls at least 3 in every circumstance. It will speed up game play and if he rolls a d20 and say 6d6 of damage in one hand, it should be exceptionally difficult for him, even unintentionally, to manipulate the rolls.
awroe 07-05-07, 05:08 AM	Anyway, your saying "I would say" should be indicative of the possibility of different interpretations of that, right? It means that anything can be interpreted in many ways and I hadn't thought this one through completely. Let's look at the texts in question: Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): While in any sort of natural terrain, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while being observed. Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow The first sentence clearly states that the shadowdancer can hide while being observed. The second clearly states that the shadowdancer does not need something to hide behind while near a shadow. There should be no question of requiring cover / concealment as it is explicitly stated the shadowdancer can "hide without anything to hide behind". Note that the shadowdancer ability has a quite different description from the ranger ability. A character with the hide in plain sight class feature (described on page 48 in the Player’s Handbook) Now consider the specific part of the FAQ that references an ability called Hide in Plain Sight. First, note that the FAQ cannot introduce new rules, merely clarify existing rules. Only the Errata can change the rules. Second, note the explicit reference to PHB p48 (the Ranger class abilities), which clarifies which abilities are being discussed within the question. I think it is quite clear that the FAQ reference is talking specifically about the Ranger class abilities Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight, and that the difference in the description of the abilities between Ranger and Shadowdancer means that the FAQ is clearly not applicable. I would welcome any arguments that disprove this.
control freak 07-05-07, 01:42 PM	so he can open doors and stay hidden, because the door has a shadow
awroe 07-05-07, 07:34 PM	so he can open doors and stay hidden, because the door has a shadow Assuming there is a light source and there is not total daylight, I can't see why not. A shadowdancer should be able to follow someone using the person's shadow to hide in. Unless it was a beholder, in which case 'ware the Anti-Magic effect. Of course, if the door / person makes any sound, a listen check can tell something is there. You may also be able to rule that the dancer must make another hide check for the changed circumstances, giving a chance for a low roll - I haven't looked at the details for that. And as has been said, Glitterdust is a good way of finding someone - -40 to hide is likely to enable anyone to see them.
Timlagor 07-05-07, 07:47 PM	I thought there was a ruling that you couldn't hide in a person's shadow... maybe it's only your own shadow.
awroe 07-05-07, 07:52 PM	I thought there was a ruling that you couldn't hide in a person's shadow... maybe it's only your own shadow. The ability states you can't hide in your own shadow - I don't know of anything mentioning other people's shadows Or perhaps it's supposed to be within 10' of a Shadow, and is only usable once you get your companion :)