Post/Author/DateTime	Post
firebeetle 11-01-07, 07:15 PM	A couple of months ago, I asked on these forums if the Sinister Spire adaptation would be out, someone responded they would get to it by month's end. Two months later, nada. I've got players in this mod currently, and I would REALLY like to give them their ARs when they are done, or even just midway. Any legitimate ETA on the adaptation of this mod?
Sieylianna 11-01-07, 10:27 PM	If you aren't running the adaptation for sinister spire, you're unlikely to be able to legally give the players AR's. Ed
Ferol, Debtor of Torm 11-01-07, 10:35 PM	What she said.
Timlagor 11-07-07, 07:57 PM	"Unlikely"? There's no question about it: they get no ARs if you didn't have, read and run the Adaptation document.
brettdm 11-18-07, 05:51 PM	Steven, Regardless of whether Firebeetle did it right or not, there are those of us waiting for the adaptation. Would you please answer the question on the ETA for Sinister Spire? 9/9/07: I should have the adaption done this month.
CSHunt68 11-18-07, 07:30 PM	Steven, Regardless of whether Firebeetle did it right or not, there are those of us waiting for the adaptation. Would you please answer the question on the ETA for Sinister Spire? I strongly suspect it'll be done when it's done. Continually posting in here isn't going to speed things up. There's lots of things to play in the meantime.
firebeetle 11-18-07, 10:19 PM	I strongly suspect it'll be done when it's done. Continually posting in here isn't going to speed things up. There's lots of things to play in the meantime. I'm used to be a "just live with it" kind of guy too. However, this was promised over two months ago for a product that was released in June, and I believe it is the ONLY adventure product that has not had an adaptation (if not, it is one of few.) I think an ETA is warranted and deserved. I'm buying product under the assumption I'll be able to run it for RPGA play. I believe that this is a goal of WotC and the RPGA, to integrate organized play with home play. This has not been the case with Sinister Spire. As for playing a non-RPGA sanctioned version, I misspoke earlier. We all sit at the game table every week and look at the website, refreshing every ten seconds, to see if the adventure has been uploaded yet. We've been doing this for months now, it's not bad. When I said we were actually playing earlier, I was in error.
Greyson 11-19-07, 01:05 AM	I think an ETA is warranted and deserved. While the Circle can certainly speak for and defend themselves, I gotta jump in and say something. Comments like the above sure are pretentious and brazenly impatient. I am eager to see the commercially Adapted adventures, too. But, we gotta remember that they are just bonus opportunities to play in Living Greyhawk. The RPGA and the campaign could very easily not provide these extra opportunities. The Adapteds are not an entitlement - none of the adventures are. They are extras, and just getting a few of them is tremendously generous in view of the total amount of play opportunities. Considering the enormous amount of work the Circle has given the end of the campaign, I think we can exercise a little more patience for a conversion document that a volunteer is providing the campaign for free. It may have been more prudent to buy the adventure after the conversion document was posted. As terse as Hunt's comment seemed, he is correct. Like everything else in seven years of Living Greyhawk, it shall be done when it is done. Don (Greyson) Nyrond Triad
firebeetle 11-19-07, 12:19 PM	While the Circle can certainly speak for and defend themselves, I gotta jump in and say something. Comments like the above sure are pretentious and brazenly impatient. I am eager to see the commercially Adapted adventures, too. But, we gotta remember that they are just bonus opportunities to play in Living Greyhawk. The RPGA and the campaign could very easily not provide these extra opportunities. The Adapteds are not an entitlement - none of the adventures are. They are extras, and just getting a few of them is tremendously generous in view of the total amount of play opportunities. Considering the enormous amount of work the Circle has given the end of the campaign, I think we can exercise a little more patience for a conversion document that a volunteer is providing the campaign for free. It may have been more prudent to buy the adventure after the conversion document was posted. As terse as Hunt's comment seemed, he is correct. Like everything else in seven years of Living Greyhawk, it shall be done when it is done. Don (Greyson) Nyrond Triad I applaud the efforts of the legion of RPGA employees, I myself donate rare and highly valuable free time to organizing game days and judging. I appreciate the decades long history of the RPGA as a volunteer organization. Having said that, my understanding is that the RPGA is currently part of Wizard's marketing division (is this in error?) I feel (and have long felt) that chronic problems and delays in the RPGA should be addressed by the company directly. Specifically in this case, a small stipend provided for making adaptations would go a long way to making sure they get done. I myself could actually prioritize time to do such I got paid for it. I'm not a greedy man, but I am a teacher and a family man and it is hard for me to prioritize time away from my family or effort from my students if I'm not paid for it. I even have a part time job that allows me to do research and grading while getting paid (babies need peanut butter.) Currently, my RPGA volunteer time now comes under "family time" because my children play too. Another solution is, of course, to redistribute work to someone else who can finish it. I will even put my money where my mouth is, so to speak, and volunteer myself to adapt this particular module. I'm qualified (Master Judge), I'm educated (three degrees, one in English), I'm efficient (school administrators routinely ask me to develop things for them), give me some guidelines and let me at it. I've been patient for half a year, I understand there is much to be done. I just want to run my module for RPGA, something I've been sold on and I think is really cool. Any more patience and I shall not be able to run it at all as a Living Greyhawk module (is that the plan?) We were given an ETA earlier, it would really help planning if I had an updated one. Again, I do not feel this is not a lot to ask.
CSHunt68 11-19-07, 01:09 PM	Evidently, it IS a lot to ask. If it were simple or desireable for the folks in charge to have done so, they would have. Plan around it, stop asking when it'll be ready, and stop sitting around a game table waiting for the site to update so you can play it that evening. (?!)
bitznarf 11-19-07, 01:18 PM	Apparently expecting people to do what they have said they would do is expecting too much. To be honest though, we really don't know where the hold-up is. It could be anywhere in the RPGA from Steven through to the web guy.
CSHunt68 11-19-07, 01:22 PM	BTW, Firebeetle, didn't you have EXACTLY this problem with Xendrik earlier this year? Planning on playing mods that weren't even in the system yet? As for people meeting expectations, please reread the first sentence in my last post. If it was easily done, or they wanted it done, it would be. Since it's not done it's either not easily accomplished, or they don't want it (or care to have it) accomplished. Feel free to guess at which is the case, fwiw. Me, I'll keep playing what IS available.
firebeetle 11-19-07, 01:57 PM	BTW, Firebeetle, didn't you have EXACTLY this problem with Xendrik earlier this year? Planning on playing mods that weren't even in the system yet? As for people meeting expectations, please reread the first sentence in my last post. If it was easily done, or they wanted it done, it would be. Since it's not done it's either not easily accomplished, or they don't want it (or care to have it) accomplished. Feel free to guess at which is the case, fwiw. Me, I'll keep playing what IS available. "Make no expectations and we will exceed them all"- This attitude doesn't work very well in my experience. I did raise a stink about Xen'drik. I was trying to plan gamedays and had NO CLUE what was available in the future beyond, say, a month. I predicted that would be detrimental to the campaign. It was. I ran based on what I could plan at the time, then gave up "chasing mods" as I called it. In that case, however, the hold-up was some bizarre policy about titles and blurbs and slow web updates. Even though the mods were planned, there was no announcement of what was going to be. Again, giant international company and the same problems: 1.) Few or no resources provided for volunteers to complete. 2.) No clear channels of communication between parts 3.) No clear incentives for volunteers or other reward program (am I mistaken?) 4.) No clear avenue for feedback and assessment of process. Now, I know many are upset with me for not subscribing to groupthink and want to play mindcop, but I'm still thinking a little ol' ETA isn't too much to ask, particularly two months after the last ETA has come and gone. Again, I am happy to take this task on myself. As with Xen'drik, if you feel I am griping to the wrong people (and I may well be) please give me the e-mail of the person I should be griping to and point my stubborn,Irish hide that direction.
CSHunt68 11-19-07, 02:02 PM	Seriously, dude, I don't want to play mindcop. I just want you to stop mewling about your false sense of entitlement. ... Just to be clear ...
Greyson 11-19-07, 05:26 PM	Apparently expecting people to do what they have said they would do is expecting too much. Okay, let's examine that flippant remark, shall we? I certainly believe we have a reasonable expectation of performance from the Circle when it comes to releasing Core adventures. And, we can reasonably expect the same performance from regional triads to deliver their eight yearly adventures and meta-regional adventures. That is an enormous amount of work spanning almost forty adventures accounting for everything from wrangling authors, the writing process, producing maps and other visual aids, editing and ARs. Consider all of the work for twenty adventures (the Core schedule) and add convention support, providing online content, reviewing and accommodating the bevy of sourcebooks into the campaign, participating in meta-regional development and planning for the end of a campaign that hosts thousands of players around the world. So, yeah, I think it is a bit unreasonable to ungraciously demand a play opportunity that was, by design, outside of the campaign. I lament the use of the term mindcop. If I am gonna be called a name here, I prefer Circle or campaign apologist. I wish it were simply a matter of finding a volunteer to complete the task of conversion. But, there is a process to converting the Adapteds that is very specific and organic Living Greyhawk's administrators. Regrettably, that process is subordinate to all of the aforementioned Circle responsibilities. I am sorry one or two Adapteds are behind schedule. I still think that patience and flexibility are key virtues during what seems to be a very troubling issue for some campaign members.
Surgebuster 11-19-07, 09:14 PM	Again, giant international company and the same problems: I think you are confusing WotC with Hasbro. That kind of 'evil empire' talk is merely a perpetuation of ignorance. WotC is, by and large, a company staffed by gamers, for gamers. Now, I know many are upset with me for not subscribing to groupthink and want to play mindcop, Please do not confuse disagreement from better-informed people (like triad) with some smarmy remarks about groupthink and mindcop. As with Xen'drik, if you feel I am griping to the wrong people (and I may well be) please give me the e-mail of the person I should be griping to and point my stubborn,Irish hide that direction. I'll go ahead and assume you didn't bother to read either the Xen'drik or LG Campaign Standards documents and therefore trust that you aren't being facetious with that remark. For a start, you could email the campaign staff instead of posting it on a forum and hoping someone official will read it. That is, if you are looking for an answer and not an opportunity to complain? The time you've devoted to agitating could have been much better spent making a genuine attempt to communicate with the relevant people IMO.
brettdm 11-19-07, 11:46 PM	Barrow was a fun mod and an interesting story (made better by its inclusion as a LG ADP). So my interest in this adaptable lies in trying to organize to play Sinister in a time frame that will allow my character that played Barrow to continue the trilogy. But with 0 TU cost mods, it is very likely that he will zip on by the APL of Sinister if it is not out soon. Given previous posts, I don't think a monthly reiteration of the question to convey that interest continues is unreasonable nor should it be taken as presumptious. It may well be the lack of people asking about it that put it on the back burner. All in all, it would probably be best to let those in the know of its status to speak for themselves. Brett Hulett
bitznarf 11-20-07, 12:04 AM	Okay, let's examine that flippant remark, shall we? I certainly believe we have a reasonable expectation of performance from the Circle when it comes to releasing Core adventures. And, we can reasonably expect the same performance from regional triads to deliver their eight yearly adventures and meta-regional adventures. That is an enormous amount of work spanning almost forty adventures accounting for everything from wrangling authors, the writing process, producing maps and other visual aids, editing and ARs. Consider all of the work for twenty adventures (the Core schedule) and add convention support, providing online content, reviewing and accommodating the bevy of sourcebooks into the campaign, participating in meta-regional development and planning for the end of a campaign that hosts thousands of players around the world. So, yeah, I think it is a bit unreasonable to ungraciously demand a play opportunity that was, by design, outside of the campaign. I'm not demanding anything. I understand that there is alot of work to be done on a volunteer basis. Doesn't change the fact that things where said and then not followed up upon. I don't expect them to make the ADP adventures in general. I expect them to do what they say they are going to do, whatever that is. In this case, it happens to be an ADP.
firebeetle 11-20-07, 12:28 AM	Barrow was a fun mod and an interesting story (made better by its inclusion as a LG ADP). So my interest in this adaptable lies in trying to organize to play Sinister in a time frame that will allow my character that played Barrow to continue the trilogy. But with 0 TU cost mods, it is very likely that he will zip on by the APL of Sinister if it is not out soon. Given previous posts, I don't think a monthly reiteration of the question to convey that interest continues is unreasonable nor should it be taken as presumptious. It may well be the lack of people asking about it that put it on the back burner. All in all, it would probably be best to let those in the know of its status to speak for themselves. Brett Hulett Here here! Ditto, what he said! I'm know I'm "mewling" but I'd really like some answer other than "shut up and wait" I just want a timetable here.
firebeetle 11-20-07, 12:55 AM	I think you are confusing WotC with Hasbro. That kind of 'evil empire' talk is merely a perpetuation of ignorance. WotC is, by and large, a company staffed by gamers, for gamers. I never used the term "Evil Empire" Wizards is, in fact, international and posts enormous profits and has hundreds of employees. We are talking about the "World Leader in Hobby Gaming" Pointing out that they are part of an even larger company only underlines my point. There really should be resources available here. That's the groupthink bit, you are failing to see past the parameters you are trying to cram down my throat. You are saying "volunteers are overworked so live with it" and I'm saying "Why is a Hasbro subsidiary relying on volunteers without providing them resources?" This is a reasonable question. Please do not confuse disagreement from better-informed people (like triad) with some smarmy remarks about groupthink and mindcop. Since you know more I should not question, is that what you are saying? That seems very Orwellian in my book. I'll go ahead and assume you didn't bother to read either the Xen'drik or LG Campaign Standards documents and therefore trust that you aren't being facetious with that remark. For a start, you could email the campaign staff instead of posting it on a forum and hoping someone official will read it. I not only read the Campaign Standards, I make multiple copies for use during the gamedays. I thought your point is that volunteers are overworked and shouldn't be bothered, now you are telling me that I should just to leave you alone? What gives? Give me the guys who decide the RPGA budget, those are the people to talk to. This show is clearly undervalued. That is, if you are looking for an answer and not an opportunity to complain? The time you've devoted to agitating could have been much better spent making a genuine attempt to communicate with the relevant people IMO. Your attributions are: 1.) I am just complaining 2.) I am agitating 3.) I am wasting time here My rebuttal is: 1.) I am asking for when the adaptation is coming out. Any complaining has been in response to posts that direct me to "shut up and wait" 2.) I do have an opinion that you apparently REALLY disagree with. I'm a little surprised that you don't feel you need any more resources to accomplish what you want to accomplish when you state it is so overwhelming. 3.) It's my time to waste. I'm working on my thesis and this is a welcome break, not that it's any of your business. If this is a waste of time (your words) perhaps you shouldn't be involved in a thread that you have no direct bearing on. It's a very simple question, can anyone please answer it? Apparently I am "mewling" and "agitating" so I'm going to do as the mindcops say and stop posting now.
CSHunt68 11-20-07, 10:40 AM	Thank you.
firebeetle 11-20-07, 05:58 PM	At the risk of mewling or agitating . . . You're welcome
Sieylianna 11-20-07, 06:18 PM	I wonder if the adaptable has fallen through the cracks or been dumped in favor of the end of LG wrap up? The same people that are responsible for the adaptables are responsible for the core story line, as well as overseeing the regional story lines, as the triads try to wrap up on schedule. It's unfortunate that no one has said anything, if that is what happened, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me. Ed
Surgebuster 11-20-07, 06:36 PM	I never used the term "Evil Empire" Wizards is, in fact, international and posts enormous profits and has hundreds of employees.. WotC posts enormous profits eh? Employs how many staff? Just how did you come about that information? I'd be interested to know because it very obviously colours your opinion on what level of support they should be giving the campaign. Since you know more I should not question, is that what you are saying? That seems very Orwellian in my book. I'm not saying *I* know more, I am saying the Nyrond triad member you insulted does. Hardly Orwellian is it, when a fellow proletariat tells you to quieten down? I not only read the Campaign Standards, I make multiple copies for use during the gamedays. I thought your point is that volunteers are overworked and shouldn't be bothered, now you are telling me that I should just to leave you alone? What gives? Give me the guys who decide the RPGA budget, those are the people to talk to. This show is clearly undervalued. My point is that instead of pretending you didn't know who the appropriate person was to address your issue, you should have just come out and said that you wanted to have a wee moan. Again I am not not a part of LG admin in any way, so claiming that I am asking you to leave me alone is redundant. The person you want the answer from *is* a volunteer. If, as it seems, you agree that they are overworked, why not help make it easier and just email the guy and ask him the question? Just click on his forum profile to get his address. It's also in the campaign standards as you apparently know. Your attributions are: 1.) I am just complaining 2.) I am agitating 3.) I am wasting time here. Wrong, and I'll thank you not to tell me what my own point of view is. You asked when the adaptation was coming out, you were told about a month, if it has gone over that time, then contact the person who made the statement, don't post another thread compaining about it, and in doing so insult a volunteer that tells you to chill out (again, not me). 3.) It's my time to waste. I'm working on my thesis and this is a welcome break, not that it's any of your business. If this is a waste of time (your words) perhaps you shouldn't be involved in a thread that you have no direct bearing on. Sure, do whatever you want with your time, you claimed to be genuinely seeking answers, that's all. It seems to me that going about that in a very inefficient way is counterproductive. It's a very simple question, can anyone please answer it? Apparently I am "mewling" and "agitating" so I'm going to do as the mindcops say and stop posting now. So, you *still* don't want to email the person you made the statement? It's easy, just click on his profile and go from there. You could also look it up in one of numerous copies of the Campaign Standards you print out. I seem to be repeating myself.
CSHunt68 11-20-07, 06:47 PM	At the risk of mewling or agitating . . . You're welcome Congratulations - that was both. I guess you can't help yourself.
WizO_Autumn 11-20-07, 09:05 PM	Careful... baiting is against the code of conduct. Please play nicely.
ORC_Chaos 11-20-07, 11:18 PM	Right, What she said. In fact she was much nicer than I would have been. I'd have closed this thread for the blatant baiting and sparking flamewar. Keep posts polite and civil at all times. If you can't say something nice or constructive, then walk away and read another thread. Thank you, Chaos