Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LGMoses 12-24-06, 08:08 PM	I'm just glad to hear Britt say in his little main thread up there that there will be no new playable races. Stick to the cores... If you want to see wierd crap go to Eberron.
The_Jester 12-24-06, 08:46 PM	Why would anyone want to play a kobold anyway? They should have a LA of -1 but don't. If you want to shoot yourself in the foot play a half-orc bard.
Morgen 12-25-06, 12:44 PM	Why? Because there are like 40 playable character races and we're being allowed to use all of like 7 of them plus subspecies. Kobolds are awesome! They totally arn't broken at all, which is why it'd be fun to play one. Just wonder around lost trying to keep up with the other adventurers....ahhh.
rockchops 12-25-06, 05:19 PM	I'm just glad to hear Britt say in his little main thread up there that there will be no new playable races. Stick to the cores... If you want to see wierd crap go to Eberron. I have one word for you: Deekin
LGMoses 12-25-06, 05:37 PM	U just got to worry about how the average man is goign to react to the crazier races.
jhorred 12-26-06, 03:05 AM	+1 I'd love to run a Kobold Sorceror, but I don't see them being socially accepted in a LG setting.
ranagrande 12-26-06, 04:53 AM	Honestly, I don't see any reason why we can't play kobolds. As for social acceptance, I really don't think that should be an issue. Most people in Greyhawk don't like half-orcs, and some regions are biased against elves, but we can play them anyway. Also, there is already a precedent for this in Living Greyhawk. One of my characters has the favor of a kobold paladin.
Mortepierre 12-26-06, 05:53 AM	Kobolds are awesome! They totally arn't broken at all, which is why it'd be fun to play one. .. and I'm sure the fact that they have a 30 ft movement rate despite being small has nothing to do with it... :shifty:
The_Jester 12-26-06, 12:16 PM	.. and I'm sure the fact that they have a 30 ft movement rate despite being small has nothing to do with it... :shifty: But they make up for that by having a net -4 penalty to stats. And suffer light blindedness. And while they have the same darkvision as a dwarf, and bonuses to a similar number of skills, they lack any of the other abilities. Kobolds get that extra +1 to AC while dwarves get a +2 to poison, magic spells, stability, a +4 ac against giants, +1 attacks on goblins, and stonecutting. And I'm just sure those skill bonuses to craft (traps) and profession (miner) will come up as often as appraise or crafts involving metal or stone. Kobolds are fun but there's no way they're LA0. A new rule should have been used in Savage Species or Ebberon or something for negative LA. I'm not a huge power gamer with cheesy builds but playing something as weak as a kobold in a game as deadly as LG is just asking to die or drag the party down. It'd be a blast to RP with a kobold but there's no way I'd want the 4th on a table to be one, the chances of it having to be carried or dying and taking down the rest of the party are too great.
ranagrande 12-26-06, 12:47 PM	Overall, kobolds are clearly inferior when compared to any of the PHB races, but I think that's just one more reason why they should be allowed. I'd still want to play one, and I certainly wouldn't mind if someone else did, even if it was the fourth one at a table. (Besides, at that point, you're probably just glad there IS a fourth so that the table can play at all. :P) Despite their weaknesses, kobolds can still be effective characters, especially if they are caster, archer, or rogue-type builds.
Morgen 12-26-06, 01:46 PM	Well I was thinking more along the lines of a Kobold Paladin or Swashbuckler, but that works too. So people don't like certain races. People hate dwarves, elves, halflings, gnomes, half-orcs, half-elves. We've got adventurers wondering around with evil swords/auras/curses/attitudes. I'd have to imagine there is less then 60% of all adventurers that shouldn't be arrested on sight when entering Greyhawk city just for suspicious behaviours. 30' of movement is why they've got all the stat penalties and things. If we wan to be cheesy with a small character we'd be asking for Whisper Gnomes. ;) So..can we have Kobolds and Whisper Gnomes as legal races come the next core intro mod? Pleeeeeeeeaaaase? :)
LGMoses 12-26-06, 03:09 PM	see, but then you have to wonder how the average person in Greyhawk is going to react to the "playable" races entering their towns. I don't think kobolds are too popular in most places. Just like bugbears and hobgoblins and all of that other stuff. You'd have to worry about how the average citizen would react and thats just not cool.
Morgen 12-26-06, 03:19 PM	Your forgetting we've got places where Elves are slaves and other places where just your religion or the fact you cast spells is enough to put your head on a pike. :P Besides, what's what the disguise skill is for. I promise to take ranks once I'm allowed to play a Kobold.
DuctShuiTengu 12-27-06, 04:03 AM	see, but then you have to wonder how the average person in Greyhawk is going to react to the "playable" races entering their towns. I don't think kobolds are too popular in most places. Just like bugbears and hobgoblins and all of that other stuff. You'd have to worry about how the average citizen would react and thats just not cool. Well, if we're going that route, how does the average person in Greyhawk react to Half-orcs? And as others have mentioned, there are several areas where other perfectly legal character types (elves, spellcasters, followers of the wrong deity) are frowned upon, or in some cases even imprisoned or executed. Having people not like a playable race (or class, or deity) would hardly be anything new.
ranagrande 12-27-06, 04:11 AM	Not only that, but I think this is something that should actually be encouraged, not frowned upon. Playing a character that a majority of the population is predisposed to dislike can create some wonderful roleplay opportunities.
Mithreinmaethor 12-27-06, 04:32 AM	The only race they need to add to fill out the core races is the Forest Gnome. Unless they choose to use another book like Frostburn for example will you see other races thrown in (Neanderthal and maybe Uldra) like the Centaur and Asherati were.
LGMoses 12-27-06, 10:30 AM	there are plenty of wonderful roleplay opps with the current races. And besides that, yes, some places they don't like elves, but bugbears and hobgoblins are generally disliked.
ranagrande 12-27-06, 12:33 PM	No one has suggested making bugbears or hobgoblins playable. Besides, as has been pointed out numerous times, half-orcs are also generally disliked.
LGMoses 12-27-06, 12:49 PM	You know what, I'm fine with whatever decisions are made. I don't really care what happens.
Britt 12-27-06, 03:36 PM	Noone has suggested those races in this forum :)
Reylance 12-27-06, 06:35 PM	I'd gladly play a kobold. I really should have asked to play one in that We Give You The World competition back in 2000....
Sutro 12-28-06, 03:34 AM	Kind of disappointed. I mean, good-aligned kobolds are playing a big part in a core module series that's gone on since Year 4. I don't see why the door should be shut on them, since, arguably, they're one of the most well-balanced of the MM races for PC play. Yes, they take hefty stat penalties, but they make consummate rogues with good speed and better AC, and they're pretty dang good sorcerors as well. Not to mention that it seems like there's a lot of people who would really like to see kobolds introduced. Obviously, the customer's not always right, and we're not even customers since we can't pay for our service from the Circle/Triads, but all the same... This is the second year I've campaigned for kobolds for the LGCS and obviously it will be a second year of failure. :) Maybe you guys should just go ahead and make the statement, "No kobolds, ever" to shut me and other people up. :p
Shieldhart91 12-28-06, 04:00 AM	If it's such a bad thing- I mean really: figure it out. If centaurs are allowed to be playable, then why the HELL aren't kobolds allowed? I don't know how many core modules I see that say "If there is a Desert Centaur PC, they are barred from entrance!" In that above example, what's stopping people from getting the same kind of treatment as a kobold? If people want to downplay races for the sake of roleplaying- hell, let them! D&D is not about statistics people: it's about how well you can enjoy the game. Obviously the majority wants the Kobold race playable: what possible reason does anyone have that a kobold can't become playable, given that they accept their responsibilities as such? Really unfair. LG needs more role-players anyways. I'm sick of people that are all stats and no role-play.
ranagrande 12-28-06, 04:35 AM	Maybe you guys should just go ahead and make the statement, "No kobolds, ever" to shut me and other people up. :p That still wouldn't stop me from pleading the case for kobold PCs. :P
gomeztoo 12-28-06, 05:12 AM	I personally feel centarurs should never have been made playable. Or asherati. They' re too awkward/weird. Kobolds/orcs/hobgoblines... those are the evil races. It's ' kill on sight' in many places. Granted, my dragon disciple char is weird, and she gets odd/hostile looks, but since I had to work towards it, she's rather unique, so she can be cut some slack. People, specifically in her region and places like Tehn, likely heard of her. One unique kobold PC (or NPC)... fine. A whole load (every player wants one) of them? I just don't see that.
CrystalBlue 12-28-06, 08:30 AM	It's probobly not the fact that it wouldn't be fun...but let's look at it like this: We all get to play as kobolds. People argue case for goblins. We all get to play as goblins. People argue case for full orcs. We all get to play as full orcs. People argue case for lizard folk. We all get to play as lizard folk. And on and on and on and on. It's a snowball effect. The reason's we've gotten to play certain types of races is because the Circle thinks it's a good story-arc idea. I don't know why centaurs were picked, but the asherati were fully part of the Bright Sands story arc. They tested the waters and saw if it would work or not. Possibly the same reason some of us got access to Shadowcaster in the GenCon special this year. They want to see how it goes with a select group of people. Maybe the new rules for the Greyhawk Ruins arc that's coming up might let us play with a bunch of new and awesome options. We'll have to wait and see. But I don't see them changing the core rules to world-wide accept different races. It just opens too many doors to gamers that know they can turn a kobold into a cheese factory. And that's always wrong. >.< Naughty little cheese factories...
DuctShuiTengu 12-28-06, 09:33 AM	We all get to play as kobolds. People argue case for goblins. We all get to play as goblins. People argue case for full orcs. We all get to play as full orcs. People argue case for lizard folk. We all get to play as lizard folk. And on and on and on and on. It's a snowball effect. By that logic, it's already too late. We already all get to play as any of the races from the PHB, along with Centaurs, Asherati, a subrace of Halforcs, and two subraces each of Elves, Dwarves, and Halflings (all from outside the PHB). Therefor, it's inevitable that we'll get to play kobolds. (Ever notice how people using the slippery slope fallacy always claim that we're still at the top of said slope?) It just opens too many doors to gamers that know they can turn a kobold into a cheese factory. And that's always wrong. >.< Naughty little cheese factories... There are already players who can turn any of the allowed races (yes, even Half-Elves) into "cheese factories," and there always will be. As long as there are rules, there will be players who find ways to make various abilities synergize. As long as those rules were created by beings who lack omniscience, there will be players who can find synergies that the creators didn't think of. Unless there's something specific about Kobolds that makes them more prone to abuse (which there isn't unless you're allowing Venerable Dragonwrought Kobolds - which would rely on rules that already aren't used in LG) that's hardly a reason to disallow them. And while there are some feats/classes that can be used to push Kobolds above the curve, claiming that as a reason for disallowing them is like claiming that half-elves should be disallowed because Outcast Champion is too good. I may only have limited interest in seeing kobolds added to the campaign (I probably wouldn't play one myself), but let's at least use decent reasons for not allowing it?
CrystalBlue 12-28-06, 09:57 AM	I was just trying to find some reasons. I wasn't trying to argue. Maybe there is no real reason other then they haven't gotten around to letting kobolds in.
LGMoses 12-28-06, 10:06 AM	Hows this for a reason: I just don't think it would fit well with the campaign.
CrystalBlue 12-28-06, 12:13 PM	Well...just cause you don't like them doesn't mean others will. I love kobolds. They're yappy, cuddly little things. ^.^ *cuddles a kobold plushie*
Nutation 12-28-06, 02:55 PM	Unless they choose to use another book like Frostburn for example will you see other races thrown in (Neanderthal and maybe Uldra) like the Centaur and Asherati were. There is a rare AR that allows Neanderthal and various other Frostburn races.
Britt 12-28-06, 03:12 PM	There is a rare AR that allows Neanderthal and various other Frostburn races. I'm not aware of that AR.
echoota 12-28-06, 04:29 PM	Well, I'm dissapointed that there won't be any new races. All that we have readily available are the same races we've had since AD&D. It's just kind of boring to have the same generic races with nothing new to add a bit more flavor. I find the LG structure to be too difficult to get much roleplaying in. The limited amount of time you have each session makes it hard to be able to go into roleplaying tangents and because of that anything that can make you more distinctive on a pure appearance or other basic level helps to add some flavor. Thus anything that is going to inject a bit of weirdness into a party is something I'm always in favor of. I think opening up more races and base classes would help with this, as the more strange notes one can add to a party will allow people to play off of them in the limited amount of time we have to add flavor to LG sessions. I enjoyed roleplaying the kobolds when I've DM'd some LG modules, and the kobold paladin that you can run into in other modules is also a lot of fun. They certainly don't seem like a gamebreaker to me in terms of stats and their slightly more alien nature can add something to the party. The one consolation I have in all of this is that I do have my centaur to play. Being able to play him does let off some of the pressure for the desire to play something different, but the drawback of that character, along with the Asherati, is that they both have real drawbacks in being able to move about in some enviroments. It would be great to have an unusual race that isn't so restrictive.
Genghis Cohen 12-28-06, 04:36 PM	It's just kind of boring to have the same generic races with nothing new to add a bit more flavor.I've found that there's quite a bit that can add flavor. Seven different races of humans, combined with different regional attitutes, are a good start. Meta-orgs can help tremendously. Find one that's quirky, and build a character that was raised to be in that organization. If you look for flavor, you'll probably find it.
LCJJohnson 12-28-06, 11:52 PM	Does anyone know why painted elves were excluded from the playable races in the Bright Sands series? I never figured that one out, myself. LCJJ
LGMoses 12-28-06, 11:54 PM	i'm with the guy above. There is an immeasurable amount of options already. Trust me, you haven't done it all. I don't want to hear about it. You haven't done it all.
NiTessine 12-29-06, 12:16 AM	Does anyone know why painted elves were excluded from the playable races in the Bright Sands series? I never figured that one out, myself. LCJJ Probably because previous material on the Bright Lands has never mentioned elves living there. Asherati living beneath the sands are easy to overlook, but a tribe of elves... not so much. Also, it may have been an attempt to avoid the elf of the week syndrome. Me, I think the centaurs were a bad idea. Kobolds would also be a bad idea. They're an evil race and have a reputation as such, and in many regions (mine included) would get killed on sight. Sure, they're suspicious about half-orcs, but at least they're not lynched or sent to a labour camp simply because of their race. Plus then there's that genocidal gnomish racial enmity thingy they have going on. I do not see a particular need for new races in Living Greyhawk. New classes, sure, but not new races. Many are simply unfit to participate in many adventures, and ome of the races in the new books would lack the sense of "always having been there", and would be hard to integrate in the world while trying to preserve the flavour of both the setting and the new race.
Arvagor 12-29-06, 12:44 AM	I do not see a particular need for new races in Living Greyhawk. New classes, sure, but not new races. Many are simply unfit to participate in many adventures, and ome of the races in the new books would lack the sense of "always having been there", and would be hard to integrate in the world while trying to preserve the flavour of both the setting and the new race.The only other "new" race I could see being let in (at least from the sense of "has been there") is the raptorans, from Races of the Wild. There is a brief comment in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer about "winged folk" living in the Lortmil Mountains, but no elaboration on what they were like, etc. I don't know whether references to such a race exist in other Greyhawk sources... Note, I'm not advocating for (or against) them to be let in, just saying that the race at least has a basis in sources leading up to the start of the campaign...
ranagrande 12-29-06, 09:53 AM	I'm just going to randomly respond to some of the recent stuff in here. Yes, there is a tremendous variety of roleplay opportunity using the current races, and that's good, but kobolds would add even more. The kobold experience is completely different from any of the other races. Those differences begin at the most basic level, with kobolds being reptiles while every other playable race is a mammal. As for that darn social stigma issue that everyone insists on bringing up, it really wouldn't be that big of a deal. I certainly don't think anyone would have to worry about hearing their DMs say "OK, so you all enter the city, except for the kobold, who the guards at the gate killed on sight." Obviously, that's an exaggerated example, but really, how many problems would there be? For anything with real consequence, it would have to be explicitly included in the mod. Some authors might do that, but I hope not. Players often have some form of protection in cities anyway. Some powerful NPC will be sponsoring them, or there will be some crisis so severe that people will overlook absolutely anything for someone offering to help. Besides, if there are any conflicts that don't have a serious impact on the scenario, that's just more of the RP that I was talking about. Honestly, I don't think asking the general population to accept kobold PCs should be any different from asking current characters to accept good kobold NPCs. Indeed, I think the two should go hand in hand. How many adventurers have met that kobold paladin, or any other good kobolds? How many stories have been told? Surely by now people have heard, even if they don't believe, of this small but dedicated group. The plight of those kobolds, outcasts from their tribes and scorned by those whose faith they now share, and their struggle to establish their new identity make up one of the most intriguing and compelling storylines in Living Greyhawk. I, for one, would love to play a part in it.
LGMoses 12-29-06, 09:31 PM	Death to kobolds! -the gnomes I opened this in the mail today. BTW, does Greyhawk have a form of flying elves like the Avariel from FR anywhere? Where are they?
Iswald 12-30-06, 05:35 AM	Honestly, I don't see any reason why we can't play kobolds. As for social acceptance, I really don't think that should be an issue. Most people in Greyhawk don't like half-orcs, and some regions are biased against elves, but we can play them anyway. Also, there is already a precedent for this in Living Greyhawk. One of my characters has the favor of a kobold paladin. Half-orcs are half-human, beings looked upon with pity or contempt. Typically the offspring of victims of foul orc assaults. Full blooded orcs are generally killed on sight. Why wouldn't kobolds as well? Doesn't the kobold paladin in question run into many difficulties due to being a kobold? If a PC had to go through the same problems, would it still be a playable race?
Morgen 12-30-06, 01:46 PM	The other question I might have is what person would honestly consider a lone kobold or two any kind of serious threat to be worthy of being slain on sight? And orc, sure those things are tough! Also, where the heck has there ever been a gnome before!? Like a village in one mod years ago and a PC ever blue moon. :P
Redfist 12-30-06, 05:54 PM	The other question I might have is what person would honestly consider a lone kobold or two any kind of serious threat to be worthy of being slain on sight? And orc, sure those things are tough! Also, where the heck has there ever been a gnome before!? Like a village in one mod years ago and a PC ever blue moon. :P Easy - a lone Kobold could be a scout. Nuke the vermin before he gets home!!! :D
echoota 01-01-07, 01:32 AM	i'm with the guy above. There is an immeasurable amount of options already. Trust me, you haven't done it all. I don't want to hear about it. You haven't done it all. Meh... all of that is fluff, what we need is more stuff! Supernatural powers and stat adjustments are the heart of flavor. As I've said, LG slots are just too short for nuanced character development. What's needed to juice things up are more exagerated character traits. We're after all fantasy super heroes, or at least that is what D&D at its core is all about. Being able to solve situations through weird effects, especially investigative mods, is what is memorable. We don't have time for people to go into these long tangents to act out all sorts of backhistory and quirky motivations, but being able to do real in game effects on the fly can be really creative ways of making a scene memorable.
clannagh 01-02-07, 12:43 AM	is this going to rule out miniature giant space hamsters as well ?
copper_wyrmling 01-02-07, 03:40 AM	The only other "new" race I could see being let in (at least from the sense of "has been there") is the raptorans, from Races of the Wild. There is a brief comment in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer about "winged folk" living in the Lortmil Mountains, but no elaboration on what they were like, etc. I don't know whether references to such a race exist in other Greyhawk sources... Note, I'm not advocating for (or against) them to be let in, just saying that the race at least has a basis in sources leading up to the start of the campaign... Raptorans have been used as NPCs in a Living Greyhawk mod: the now-retired Year 5 Sheldomar Valley mod, "The Prophet's Voice", involved them.
LGMoses 01-02-07, 01:56 PM	is this going to rule out miniature giant space hamsters as well ? WooHoo! Baldur's Gate Rocks! Best thing to come out of FR IMO. Ah Minsc, if only Boo could somehow bring you to Greyhawk in his miniature giant space ship...