Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kjenks 10-08-05, 03:55 PM	The Circle made this ruling, and I’m trying to understand how to apply it: === If you apply a meta-magic feat to a spell and the increase in level of that spell takes it above what you can use a metamgic rod on then you cannot use it. Pretty simple there. If you used empower spell on a fireball it would bump it up so that it would require a 5th level spell slot to cast it. Thus you could not use a Metamagic, Silent, lesser Rod on the spell as it only works on spells of 3rd level or less. You could use empower spell on a magic missile as it would only raise it to require a 3rd level spell slot to cast and thus would fall in the range of the lesser Rod of Silence. Thus it is stated and thus it is done. Unless a D&D Errata comes out stating otherwise (or the feats or rods are updated in a future source) Dave C The Circle === http://www.theocracyofthepale.com/gamerules/circle_rulings.html I've got a sorc 12 with the Empower Spell feat and a Rod of Extend (Lesser). Can she use the rod to Extend a False Life then apply Empower Spell to it for 12x2=24 hours of Empowered False Life? Extend Spell is normally +1 slot, but it's +0 with the Rod. Empower Spell is +2 slots. It looks like it depends on the order in which I apply the metamagic, and this case isn't covered by the Circle's rule quoted above. The Circle's rule covers the cases of a 1st level spell and a 3rd level spell in this kind of situation, but it says nothing about a 2nd level spell. If I apply the Rod of Extend (Lesser) first then the Empower Spell feat, the combo works according to the Circle's rule. But if I apply the Empower Spell feat first, it would bump the False Life spell from a level 2 to a level 4 spell so it would not be eligible for the Rod of Extend (Lesser) since a Lesser rod is up to level 3 spells. In addition, the Circle's rule seems to assume that you prepare a spell ahead of time with a metamagic feat, like a wizard or cleric, and there's no mention spontaneous casters, who apply metamagic feats at casting time. Would a spontaneous caster apply the rod first or the feat first or could the caster choose which to apply first at casting time? Just for reference, here's the description of Metamagic Rods: SRD === Metamagic Rods: Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat but do not change the spell slot of the altered spell. All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity). A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod’s wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast. Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day. A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses. Lesser and Greater Metamagic Rods: Normal metamagic rods can be used with spells of 6th level or lower. Lesser rods can be used with spells of 3rd level or lower, while greater rods can be used with spells of 9th level or lower. === While we're on the subject, would a sorcerer's application of both a metamagic rod and a metamagic feat to a spell with a casting time of 1 standard action increase the casting time to one full round or two full rounds? The PH doesn't make this clear.
King Kashue 10-08-05, 06:44 PM	I obviously have no authoritative answer, but if you're just looking for other folk's take on how to apply it, I can give you mine... Second issue first, the PHB does not state that applying a metamagic feat is a full round action, but rather that a metamagic spell is a full round action...Whether you apply 1 metamagic feat or 5, it's still a metamagic spell in either case, and thus would be a single full round action... As for the rods, I personally would rule that you can apply both, with just the sort of "ordering arrangement" you suggest to make it legal...I can easily see how people could take the opposite viewpoint, but to my mind it seems to merely be an advantage of spontaneous casting that the character may choose what order to apply the effects (just as they are at a disavantage relative to prepared casters in other ways, most significantly quicken spell)...
JohnduBois 10-09-05, 01:14 AM	At my table (unless, of course, I hear good reasoning or a Circle ruling saying otherwise), you would not be able to use both the feat and the rod on a False Life. I interpret the Circle ruling the same way for spontaneous and prepared spellcasters. You apply the actual feats you plan on using, and if the level is appropriate for the rod, you apply the rod. For the second one, there is nothing saying that applying a metamagic feat and rod (or two metamagic feats for that matter) would rise the casting time above one full round, so one full round it is.
King Kashue 10-09-05, 02:19 AM	For the second one, there is nothing saying that applying a metamagic feat and rod (or two metamagic feats for that matter) would rise the casting time above one full round, so one full round it is. Just to be obsessive (because I know folks are often confused about it), spontaneously casting a metamagic spell is a full round action, not a full round casting time...
solbergb 10-13-05, 06:34 PM	The simple interpretation is to start with the spell. What slot goes away when the spell is cast? Compare that to the rod's limits. If it falls under the limits, you can use the rod on it. If it consumes a slot higher than the rod's limits, you can not. It doesn't matter how you got the slot, how you cast or whether or not there is metamagic on the spell in the slot. The circle has ruled that the metamagic rod limits are based on the spell slot consumed not the effective level of the spell effect. (correctly ruled too IMHO - metamagic is PREPARED AND CAST as if it was the higher level slot, with EFFECT as if it was the lower level spell. The rods are use-activated, at CASTING time, according to their description) I am also of the belief that no matter how much metamagic you pile on a spont spell, if the spell is std action or less to cast before the metamagic, it only takes a full round action to cast. However the rules don't say precisely what the intent is so I imagine someday I'll encounter a judge that feels differently.
wagnert 10-17-05, 03:56 PM	The simple interpretation is to start with the spell. What slot goes away when the spell is cast? Compare that to the rod's limits. If it falls under the limits, you can use the rod on it. If it consumes a slot higher than the rod's limits, you can not. In other words, the metamagic rod is always applied LAST. This makes the most sense based on what a rod is supposed to do, and matches what the circle have ruled.
King Kashue 10-17-05, 05:24 PM	In other words, the metamagic rod is always applied LAST. This makes the most sense based on what a rod is supposed to do, and matches what the circle have ruled. While a reasonable interpretation, I would disagree with your assessment that this agrees with what the circle has ruled...The circle has ruled nothing regarding spontaneous casting, having only ruled on prepared casting (and the issue here is on the primary difference between the two)... There is obviously much that is different between prepared and spontaneous. Most importantly, with spontaneous casting, the feat is applied when the spell is cast; exactly the same manner as the rod. Since there is so much similarity between the way applying a character's feat to a spell and applying the rod's "feat" to the spell, it is a reasonable argument to say they can be applied in either order...At the very least, both are legitimate points of view since there is nothing specifically saying it is one way or another (which is why Ken asked the question in the first place)... To sum up, there is nothing to say that a metamagic rod is applied last, it is only the case in prepared spells since there is no way to apply it first (i.e., it's not a stated aspect of the rod itself)...However, with spontaneous casting, both the feat and the rod are applied at the moment of casting, and there is no explicit reason that they cannot be applied in either order...
kjenks 10-17-05, 10:39 PM	Which is why I'm hoping for a Circle ruling. Tim?
The_Elder 10-18-05, 07:34 AM	Which is why I'm hoping for a Circle ruling. Tim? I second this.....it came up at the tabell I ran reacently......I let it go cous otherwise it would have ben a TPK.....for a bunch of 10-13 year olds....not what I wanted to do. The:dice:Elder ps Crownfire is to vishous to a slightly unprepared party at apl 2
TimRat 10-18-05, 01:52 PM	i'll get on this..
vvincent 10-25-05, 07:54 PM	That's why the mod is APL 4-12, not APL 2-12. Vernon L. Vincent Author of Crownfire ps Crownfire is to vishous to a slightly unprepared party at apl 2
The_Elder 10-26-05, 07:18 AM	That's why the mod is APL 4-12, not APL 2-12. True but some poor HS kids got somthing that sead it was apl 2-12 and had payed to play.....pre redg....ran two tabels that weekend....it allso nearly kiled an apl 8 The:dice:Elder
Tungar 11-08-05, 07:54 AM	I have a question about Rods (not exactly the subject of this thread), do I need to carry a Rod of metamagic on hand to use it ? Thanks.
TimRat 11-09-05, 11:23 PM	you go with the FAQ ruling on this but as far as stacking rods upon rods i'm still looking into this.
kjenks 11-10-05, 10:04 AM	you go with the FAQ ruling on this but as far as stacking rods upon rods i'm still looking into this. Sadly, the FAQ and other rules are unclear on whether you need to "wield" a metamagic rod in a hand (or tentacle or whatever), or whether you just need to have it in your possession. (Italics added below.) SRD === Metamagic Rods: Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat but do not change the spell slot of the altered spell. All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity). A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod’s wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast. Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day. A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses. Metamagic, Empower: The wielder can cast up to three spells per day that are empowered as though using the Empower Spell feat. Strong (no school); CL 17th; Craft Rod, Empower Spell; Price 9,000 gp (lesser), 32,500 gp (normal), 73,000 gp (greater). === So does mere posession of the rod do the trick? Or does the spellcaster need to actively wield the rod? This is a Core rule question, though, and I suspect it's one that the Circle is not likely to answer. Tim, the question I'd like for you to delve into with the Circle is not exactly "stacking rods upon rods" (since I can clearly only use one rod at a time) but actually, "How does the Circle's ruling about stacking metamagic rods with metamagic feats affect spontaneous spellcasters? Would a spontaneous caster apply the rod first or the feat first or could the caster choose which to apply first at casting time?"