Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Reylance 03-06-07, 07:31 PM	As a tangent from the equipment thread, let's discuss the relative merits of wizards, sorcerers, and specialist wizards. Given a typical LG module, with up to three encounters a day, which is best? Going strictly by spellcasting, there's a continuum of increasing number of spells (wizard-specialist-sorcerer) and increasing versatility of spells available (sorcerer-specialist-wizard). Now, personally, I think they're all fairly equal, but some (Ken Jenks) have some strong opinions otherwise. Let's hear them!
Japangirl 03-06-07, 08:04 PM	It entirely depends on what you want to do. I've seen extremely effective wizards and sorcerors and specialists, and extremely ineffective ones. It matters more who is playing them than the actual build, in my experience. I have a Abjuration specialist right now and am planning a generalist wizard for Greyhawk Ruins, in case anyone wants my "caster credentials".
copper_wyrmling 03-06-07, 08:17 PM	It entirely depends on what you want to do. I've seen extremely effective wizards and sorcerors and specialists, and extremely ineffective ones. It matters more who is playing them than the actual build, in my experience. I have a Abjuration specialist right now and am planning a generalist wizard for Greyhawk Ruins, in case anyone wants my "caster credentials". *nods at Japangirl* I used to think it was easier to make a completely ineffective sorcerer than a completely ineffective wizard, but I revised that opinion after encountering a couple of wizards who were using CL1 wands of Magic Missile for primary offense at APL 6-8 and who had about the same number of spells known as a sorcerer of equal level. Played well, either a sorcerer or wizard does just fine as the primary arcane caster, and I honestly haven't seen much difference between generalist and specialist wizards. I do have one friend who plays an (extremely effective) wizard who banned Transmutation, and he has to explain to people at the start of mods that he can NOT cast Fly or Mass Fly (or Haste or GMW), but it's possible to make even that work.
cetiken 03-06-07, 08:53 PM	My preference is for specialist wizards. My reasons are not related to effectiveness in combat, but to the amount of fun it is to play such a character. I personally enjoy challenges and to restrict yourself from two schools and still be just as effective is great fun. Rather than saying 'I do some of everything worth doing' you say 'I do [School] well'. Consequently I expect specialists to go the extra mile with spell focus (or point blank/ precise for ray users) and get those high save DCs/ to-hit bonuses. I admit that not all schools of specialization impress me. I don't care for Diviners or Enchanters as they seem to not gain as much with their extra spell slots, though that could be a DMs bias of hating plot-breakers. But Illusionists, Evokers, Conjuers, Abjurers, Transmuters, and Necromancers are all a welcome sight at my table (especially if they didn't multiclass to loose caster levels like a lot of local wizards). Beguilers and Warmages are an interesting addition to the mix. I'm personally in love with Beguilers as being an Int caster and skilled guy seem like a happily synergistic mix. I had planed on making an Illusionist for the Greyhawk Ruins, but now I'm leaning toward a Beguiler.
Sieylianna 03-06-07, 09:48 PM	I think the prevalence of pearls of power in the living greyhawk campaign really hurts the sorcerer. That may change with the new MIC rules. Ed
Haro 03-06-07, 09:51 PM	My preference is for specialist wizards. My reasons are not related to effectiveness in combat, but to the amount of fun it is to play such a character. I personally enjoy challenges and to restrict yourself from two schools and still be just as effective is great fun. Rather than saying 'I do some of everything worth doing' you say 'I do [School] well'. Consequently I expect specialists to go the extra mile with spell focus (or point blank/ precise for ray users) and get those high save DCs/ to-hit bonuses. Amen to that. My only arcane caster to date is a Conjurer with Enchantment and Evocation chosen as barred schools. He excels at battlefield control without Wall of Force or Dominate and is also an excellent damage dealer without Fireball or Scorching Ray. People think I'm crazy for barring Evocation but it's the flavour that makes him so interesting to play. Ok, so he's an Alienist and Scarlet Brotherhood member as well but I digress... I admit that not all schools of specialization impress me. I don't care for Diviners or Enchanters as they seem to not gain as much with their extra spell slots, though that could be a DMs bias of hating plot-breakers. I'd love to play an Enchanter as I've never seen one, given the amount of enemies are immune to mind affecting. High DC Dominate and Hold Monster? Sign me up! (assuming they take sf & gsf of course) Diviners are different and do present a problem for writers. They're a nightmare for the 'lightly prepped' DM too... Joe
JamesMaissen 03-06-07, 11:06 PM	As a tangent from the equipment thread, let's discuss the relative merits of wizards, sorcerers, and specialist wizards. Given a typical LG module, with up to three encounters a day, which is best? Well the first factor is realizing what you are playing. I've seen far too many wizards played like sorcerers (i.e. their memorized spells never change and don't vary beyond what an equal level sorcerer could know), likewise I've seen bards played like sorcerers (they simply don't have the sheer number of slots to make it work, yet people pick spells known like they do), and of course people picking spells known for their sorcerer like they wished they were a wizard. If you make peace with what you are you are a step ahead, while if you don't then you've already lost. A sorcerer suffers from the random party compositions that LG introduces. Not as much as some other classes (say Monk for example), but still it puts increasing pressure to streamline spells and that leads to disappointment at higher mid levels. The 4th level spells are where you start to feel the pain on being a sorcerer imho. I, personally, prefer being a generalist wizard over specializing. But then I tend to conserve spells and focus more upon being as flexible as possible. The wizard I run leaves alot of spell slots open and mitigates the inability to always be able to sit down for 15+ minutes with levels in Mage of Arcane Order, a Ring of Theurgy and a stack of consumables. But I'll leave with that the most important thing is to know your role in the party. If you try to be something you are not you will be as unhappy as a rogue thinking he's a fighter... -James
Mattastrophic 03-06-07, 11:20 PM	After doing the specialist thing then switching to generalist in the 595 CY conversion, I must say, generalist is the way to go. Every school has something you'll eventually find yourself wanting... Off the top of my head: Abjuration - Antimagic Field, ProtEvil, Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel, Spell Turning, Stoneskin Conjuration - DimDoor, Teleport, Plane Shift, Maze Divination - See Invisibility, True Seeing, True Strike (esp. Quickened), Detect Scrying Enchantment - Heroism, Greater Heroism Evocation - Contingency, Wall of Force Illusion - Mirror Image, Displacement, Improved Invis, Mislead Necromancy - False Life, Finger of Death, Ray of Enfeeblement Transmutation - Craft Wondrous Item, Blink, Fly, Haste, Greater Magic Weapon, Baleful Polymorph In the era of retraining, though, you can start off specialist then switch to generalist when you start feeling the burn. It's also a matter of playstyle. For example, I would recommend that a first-time player start with a Sorcerer rather than a Wizard; the same goes for players who don't enjoy the micromanagement involved with Wizardry. Myself, I find a certain art in preparing a palette of indiviually unique spells, then watching my masterpiece unfold as I cast each one at the perfect moment over the course of the day. -Though Matt's been kicking around Alacritous Cogitation lately, for a small measure of spontaneity.
Hariman 03-07-07, 02:06 AM	Y'know what? All three are good in the right hands. I've got a rogue/conjurer who relies on orbs and other ranged touch attacks. He should have been a sorcerer with how I play him. His spell list will branch out as he goes to higher levels. He lost a lot of money/TUs so I haven't been able to afford to craft or add many spells to his spellbook. And I've got a sorcerer who is going to get a variety of spells. Grease, Burning Hands and Magic Missile (and recently glitterdust) have served him well. My analysis of the three is: Wizards, without specialization, are great for doing what is needed, when it's needed. They can gain HUGE spellbooks, loads of scrolls/wands/etc, and as long as you are willing to spend the money, more spells a day than a sorcerer. Just be careful with your spell slots, they are quite limited. Specialist Wizards gain a few extra spell slots (which have more impact at higher levels) and are better for players who want mastery in one area, and the ability to do other things. You'll sometimes have to say "I can't do that", but you'll also be able to say "I can do that better than you!" Sorcerers are best if you can plan a high variety/few spells spell list. One bad choice will be felt for several levels (unless you retrain). BUT, you'll be able to "prepare" faster, choose what to cast faster, and you'll probably last a little longer spell slot wise. But they're all good or bad at the table depending on the player. A fool of a rogue/wizard who's trying to hide to get SA won't be as good as the same (basic) character who just fires Ranged Touch Attacks and hits the enemies while he can. (That was/is me) The same ranged touch reliant character will shoot himself in the foot without Point Blank/Precise Shot (And possibly Improved Precise or Ranged Recall. Which my rogue/wizard will get.) All three have their place and all three can be great fun/highly useful to play. Hariman PS: Even sorcerers, despite one of the local DMs decrying them as one trick ponies.
Gwumph 03-07-07, 02:45 AM	Please don't flame me!!! I am thinking about multi-classing as a Warmage/Wizard. 1st level Warmage 3 levels Wizard (at third character level take practiced spellcaster) After that many more warmage levels. Personally I am hoping that the Warmage spells will be decent enough to take care of combat (i.e. Hail of stones at 3rd level will be 3d4+4 no saving throw) While 1st and second wizard spells will be versitile enough to be helpful in other situations. I know Ult Magus would be perfect for me (But it's closed so be it) Anyone doing something similiar?
cycloptic_squirrel 03-07-07, 03:00 AM	Please don't flame me!!! :mage: hmmm... nah. :cool: Warmage is one of those where you really need that access to higher level spells. What about some alternatives, such as arcane disciple, some ranks in UMD, or just be a straight up blasty sorcerer? One cleric level with the right domains might give you the versatility you're looking for. I'm just not seeing the benefit to what you've outlined. Even one level of wizard doesn't seem to be worth it. What is it in the 2nd level arcane spells that you want?
clannagh 03-07-07, 03:04 AM	* summons a fiendish dire haddock *
Reylance 03-07-07, 10:01 AM	For an enchanter wizard, you want to play in a region with a fair number of humanoid foes. Transfix is horribly powerful against a medium-sized foe. The most effective enchantment spell is feeblemind + spell focus + 4 points of spin + reroll from a Fatespinner 4. At the time when they're your highest level spell, confusion, hold person, and Tasha's are all powerful ways to stop an enemy. Diviners only lose one school, but the spells don't have much impact in combat. Arrow mind, true strike, and see invisible are the few you'll cast. Other spell slots can be used for scouting (clairvoyance, arcane eye), utility (Rary's telepathic bond), and information (divination... you are a divine oracle, right?). Divination is the perfect specialty for spellswords, as it gives you an extra spell for Arcane Strike, and your DCs will be low enough to make Enchantment a mostly useless school.
Lupo 03-07-07, 10:04 AM	As a tangent from the equipment thread, let's discuss the relative merits of wizards, sorcerers, and specialist wizards. Given a typical LG module, with up to three encounters a day, which is best? Going strictly by spellcasting, there's a continuum of increasing number of spells (wizard-specialist-sorcerer) and increasing versatility of spells available (sorcerer-specialist-wizard). Now, personally, I think they're all fairly equal, but some (Ken Jenks) have some strong opinions otherwise. Let's hear them! all arcanists have improved somehow with the new LGCS: sorcerers huge gain: heritage feats :) instead of allocating one of the very limited spells to a short to mid range damaging spell, a sorcerer gets a spelllike ability that scales with his levels. infernal heritage is the icing on the cake combined with infernal howl. again the WotC R&D team had some fun with the slightly different wordings of the similar feats. infernal howl explicitely only damages opponents, so a sorc hasn't to care about friends position :P. sorcerers gain: Memento Magica, ok, one now has to find access, but that is the same problem for wizards and their PoP now. specialists (and any build that has a spell focus [any school] as a prerequisite anyway) gain: metamagic school focus, basically DMM light, with fewer costs. wizards and sorcerers: reserve feats, not the most damaging effects, but nice to use in "warming up" encounters where an arcanist otherwise tends to fall back to "i take out my x-bow and try to prick them" on the more general scale: a wizard can't do really bad things to his spell selection, he always can add spells to his repertoire. a specialist has to be careful about his forbidden schools and needs to invest some brainpower how to make up for certain "essential" spells he has no access to. (btw, i see the most advantage of a specialist in early to mid levels, where the extra spells make up a huge percentage of his overall spellpower and resources like fancy items are hardly affordable.) a sorcerer is the one who has to be most selective about his choosen spells. the balance between his limited repertoire and the basic needs and roles of an arcanist in a LG group has to be carefully maintained. ciao martin m.
Rerednaw 03-07-07, 11:37 AM	As a tangent from the equipment thread, let's discuss the relative merits of wizards, sorcerers, and specialist wizards. Given a typical LG module, with up to three encounters a day, which is best? Going strictly by spellcasting, there's a continuum of increasing number of spells (wizard-specialist-sorcerer) and increasing versatility of spells available (sorcerer-specialist-wizard). Now, personally, I think they're all fairly equal, but some (Ken Jenks) have some strong opinions otherwise. Let's hear them! I played a sorceror (TPK'd) and a wizard (RHoD woot) in LG. I liked them both. Which is better? There is a lot of variation in modules so unless your region has the Diplo/Ambush/Ambush/Diplo/Final Flight formula I'd say wizard edges out over sorceror just because of sheer flexibility in spell selection and the extra feats. Not to mention all knowledge skills as class skills has helped combat more times I can count. I.e. "Uh maybe you should try, I dunno, fire on the troll instead of just hitting him." Or to the charging tank: "That's a tendriculous, you may want to reconsider *SNARF-GRAB-GULP* uh never mind." I play a wizard with augment summoning, rapid spell, sculpt spell, and metamagic school focus. I summon my highest level critters as a standard action. My sculpted grease and sculpted glitterdust spells don't take a higher spell slot. Granted I only get 3 of these a day. But I get all of that 3 levels ahead of the sorceror AND spell access one level earlier. Not to mention the free scribe scrolls. If I was playing my sorceror I was constantly agonizing over which of these I could take and what I'd have to give up. I don't factor in the pearl of power issue because none of my casters have had access to them*. I've heard of the sorceror's equivalent (momento something or other) but I haven't seen those either. *Update: well as of my last AR my wizard now has access to POP2. He doesn't have the cash for it though (after he buys a blessed book and headband of int maybe I can start on pearls.) Now which one would I like to play more? Sorceror. His limitations in and out of combat forced him into a narrow role and he simply cannot contribute as much across the board. When he was in his element though, he really shines. My wizard is a technician...my sorceror was an artist.
copper_wyrmling 03-07-07, 01:15 PM	sorcerers huge gain: heritage feats :) instead of allocating one of the very limited spells to a short to mid range damaging spell, a sorcerer gets a spelllike ability that scales with his levels. infernal heritage is the icing on the cake combined with infernal howl. again the WotC R&D team had some fun with the slightly different wordings of the similar feats. infernal howl explicitely only damages opponents, so a sorc hasn't to care about friends position :P. sorcerers gain: Memento Magica, ok, one now has to find access, but that is the same problem for wizards and their PoP now. specialists (and any build that has a spell focus [any school] as a prerequisite anyway) gain: metamagic school focus, basically DMM light, with fewer costs. wizards and sorcerers: reserve feats, not the most damaging effects, but nice to use in "warming up" encounters where an arcanist otherwise tends to fall back to "i take out my x-bow and try to prick them" It's funny, we have completely different ideas as to what sorcerers got out of the LGCS :) My sorcerer doesn't care about memento magicas (she has more than enough spell slots already), heritage feats (2d6 damage / spell level? I have tricks that do 2d6 damage / character level with no save...) or reserve feats (she hasn't used a crossbow since about L2: at L12, her "gah, I'm out of real spells, this is my embarrassingly weak option" is a non-metamagicked scorching ray or acid-substituted scorching ray for 12d6 damage). The important things, for my L12 sorc, were the availability of retraining (now she can finally take some of those lower-level Limited spells she's been finding at a rate faster than one / two levels) and the fact that Rapid Metamagic is now Open. Mmmm, spontaneous Quicken... Metamagic School Focus is also very nice for metamagic-focused sorcerers, which in my experience is most of them.
Mommy was an Orc 03-07-07, 02:26 PM	Please don't flame me!!! I am thinking about multi-classing as a Warmage/Wizard. 1st level Warmage 3 levels Wizard (at third character level take practiced spellcaster) After that many more warmage levels. If I were going to do something like that, I'd do something more like this: Bard 1/Warmage 4/Unseen Seer 1-5/Sublime Chord 2/Unseen Seer 6-8 Gives you Warmage spells from 1-4 and Sublime Chord spells from 4-7. Plus, you're a pretty decent skill monkey. You do need to do the odd retraining stuff, though.
Cardinal Teplin 03-07-07, 02:32 PM	I must admit I've not fond of sorcerors, although there are some interesting things you can do with them you simply can't do with wizards. Between generalist wizards and specialists, I first decide what spells I'm likely to be wanting to cast, and see the impact of removing two schools on that. The spells I'm likely to cast depend very much on the kind of character I'm playing. The point to bear in mind is that losing two schools of magic is only a problem to the extent that you would actually end up learning, casting or crafting those spells. I find spell access in LG relatively limited. You can't hope to learn cast or craft with every spell. Whether those spells you can't cast are spread around, or mainly concentrated within two schools, is what counts. For example, my existing RHoD character, was interested in fog spells, spells that summon creatures, buff spells, spells for familiars (ie anything familiar specific or ranged touch or personal), and those that hinder large groups of monsters (often known as 'battlefield control'). Ditching two schools was fairly easy. It's that I don't miss being able to cast the odd illusion, but having more different spells memorised of the ones I can cast more than makes up for it. I find I cast most of my spells each day, and being a specialist enables to memorise a greater variety of spells than would otherwise be the case, because I have more slots to fill. The higher level I become, the more difference it makes. The biggest downside to being a specialist I found was having to take half your spells that you gain from levelling from a single school. Other than that, no regrets. I was nervous about playing a specialist, thinking I'd lose versatility, but found the reverse to be true.
Mommy was an Orc 03-07-07, 02:39 PM	I think it depends on how you look at things: Sorcerers - none of this 'How many times should I take Haste' business. That's worth a lot if you're not into managing your spell list. Specialist Wizards - honestly, I like banning schools. When you can't provide a particular spell, you learn to cast around it. Sure, False Life is invaluable, but not being targeted works pretty well too. Wizards - they're good at what they do, but I don't like playing them - too much asset management and because they don't usually have enough spells per day, too much downside when they're wrong. That's not to say they're not effective - I just find them a bit too stressful and work-intensive.
solbergb 03-07-07, 02:56 PM	I don't think specialists and wizards are meaningfully different in LG so in the comments below substitute "prepared caster arcanist" where I say wizard and take it at that. I'm leaving things like warmages and beguilers out of the equation because neither is really able to do the entire arcane caster role (warmages are more like archers, beguilers more like arcane tricksters) Campaign factors favoring wizards over a "Vanilla" campaign 1. Downtime on demand (to make use of crafting feats, liberal scroll scribing without wasting time rules) 2. The expectation that you will always have your spellbook with you (open slots are not as useful in campaigns where you usually leave your spellbook in a protected vault) 3. Access to entire L1-4 PHB spell list by just spending cash. (as opposed to finding NPC wizards and bargaining with them) 4. General willingness of PC wizards to trade spells, and the fact that you will meet zillions of other PC wizards in your career (as opposed to zero or maybe one in a normal campaign. 5. Pearls of power grow on trees and are dirt cheap if you take craft wondrous (yes I know access is more restricted. I still have crafting access on every single char I have > level 4 for low level pearls, and several higher level pearl access), and lesser metamagic rods are nearly as common. These greatly mitigate the spell inflexibility. 6. Usually no more than 3 encounters a day, so the inflexibility of the wizard spell slots when your "good" spells are used up isn't seen much. Campaign factors favoring sorcerers over a "Vanilla" campaign 1. More reactive encounters than usual. It's relatively rare to have the party have an idea at spell prep time what they're going to be facing, and some games start out with a battle out of the blue. The sorcerer ability to have every option at their fingertip that they know is gold in these situations. 2. Unbalanced or weird parties. A party with lots of arcane, you won't duplicate what the other arcane do unless you chose a very boring spell mix. A party with no arcane, any spell another party member really needs, they'll give you a scroll of for free, asking nicely to use it if you have an action. 3. Free access to purchase level 1-4 wizard scrolls to cover holes in spell list (and now, a limited number of L1 wands, a couple of which are actually useful). Also access to buy the only things that really matter to a sorcerer - attribute boosters, resistance vest and haversack. 4. Huge, diverse selection of spells and metamagic to build synergies and thematic casting from. There are a LOT of ways from just the core spell list to, say, get a party member out of a grapple, or to engage a flying opponent. While wizards have these choices, they actually can't USE more than what they actually prepped or maybe scribed. A sorc who picks well, always has a chosen option, no matter how bizzare, at his fingertips. (you'd be surprised at the users for sculpted gust of wind, if you have it around all the time....) 5. Retraining greatly adds to a sorcs ability to mutate the spell list to weed it of spells that didn't work out so well and try out new things. 6. no more than 3 encounters per day on most days. It is a rare day that a sorc is forced to burn his last top tier spell, and you also have considerable freedom to burn large numbers of lower level spells buffing the whole party in whataver way you're capable of, or burn off shorter duration spells on the suspicion that they might be useful. (my sorc favors arcane sight whenever I'm remotely curious about anything or suspect hidden enemies or traps. Az's sorceress does something similar with Haste)
magebeast 03-07-07, 03:05 PM	It's funny, we have completely different ideas as to what sorcerers got out of the LGCS :) My sorcerer doesn't care about memento magicas (she has more than enough spell slots already), heritage feats (2d6 damage / spell level? I have tricks that do 2d6 damage / character level with no save...) Could you spell this out? My sorcerer is only level 5 at this point, so I have some considerable room for retreading if I hear things that I like.
copper_wyrmling 03-07-07, 03:48 PM	Could you spell this out? My sorcerer is only level 5 at this point, so I have some considerable room for retreading if I hear things that I like. It's nothing exotic, just recognizing that if you want to do direct damage, heavily metamagicked low-level spells are the way to go (EDIT: although see below). A twinned scorching ray or split empowered scorching ray does ~24d6 damage at L12 (my sorcerer's current level). Of course, it's all fire damage, and it allows SR - I have access to Assay Spell Resistance, so the latter isn't so much of a problem for me, but the former is annoying. My sorc would kill for a full rod of energy substitution, although the Arcane Transmogrification card can substitute once / adventure. I might retrain Sculpt to Energy Substitution or Nonlethal Substitution at some point, if I still can't find a metamagic rod :( At the moment, if I run into significant fire resistance I'll just switch to empowered orbs of force. They only do 15d6, but it's virtually unstoppable: relative to Infernal Sorcerer Howl, I prefer to focus fire, and I value a 15d6 medium-range single-target zap with no save that works on incorporeals / ethereals over a 12d6 cone effect with a save for half, especially when the latter would cost me two feats. Of course, all these direct-damage tricks usually only come into play once I've finished setting up battlefield control (sculpted evard's, spiritwall) and doing any relevant debuffs (split ray enervation on casters, empowered ray of enfeeblement on melees, sculpted glitterdust on sneaky people). Direct damage is important in that somebody has to be able to do it, but spellcasters get a lot of other interesting ways to mess up their enemies as well :) If you really want to go nova with direct damage, then rapid metamagic + quicken spell allows 36d6 damage / round at L12 with metamagicked scorching rays (twin ray + quickened ray), at the cost of two L6 spell slots. I imagine I'll have to be a bit more careful with my top-tier spell slots once this trick comes online, though. Moonbow and Rainbow Beam have higher CL caps than Scorching Ray and allow you to keep up with the ~2d6 damage / character level curve up to higher levels, if you can get access to them and have the appropriate metamagic feats. At lower levels, the way my sorc did higher-than-normal damage was using ray spells that never missed (high starting Dex, point blank shot, precise shot, guided shot as a known spell, gloves of fortunate striking allow her to reroll those annoying 1's), and getting caster level boosts on scorching ray - she's a Wild Mage. At L8, I'd take a couple of arcane influx cards and play them on important empowered scorching rays: that ensured that I didn't lose a ray, and gave me a 1/3 chance of getting CL11+, which meant ~18d6 damage rather than ~12d6. I'm not saying the heritage feats are useless: I have a sorc with Draconic Heritage + Draconic Breath, and Infernal Sorcerer Howl is better than her breath weapon, but none of the heritages grant the sort of damage-dealing potential that actual spells of that level do. What they DO give is a backup option for a sorcerer primarily focused on non-damaging spells, without needing to spend any spells known on an area that you're not really interested in. That can be very valuable for some sorcerers (my little gnome sorcerer wants to be a shadowcraft mage, and the draconic breath will nicely complement all her SR:yes shadow illusions), but it's not for everyone. EDIT: While what I said above regarding direct-damage strategies is generally true, there IS the occasional spell that lets you do very high damage without requiring too much investment in metamagic feats. The one that jumps to mind is Telekinesis, especially now that Large weapons are Open access (you replace SR and energy-resistance issues with needing to hit real AC rather than touch AC, and needing to beat DR). Solbergb's sorcerer Olivia has made this particular trick into something of an art form :)
solbergb 03-07-07, 05:16 PM	TK for direct damage needs helper spells and feats. GMW is a nobrainer. If you stick with ammunition, flame arrow and energy substituted flame arrow is fairly obvious. If you go Olivia's route and want to throw really big things around, you want chain spell by level 12, GMW and some way of carting the items around (she has tenser disk, servant horde and still usually has to resort to a wagon to move 12' long size large greatswords about). The ammunition route is far more practical but less in theme for my particular sorceress. The bard cohort to boost her attack rolls and caster levels into the stratosphere also really helps when present. TK is a very versatile spell, but it's usually a "d6/level" type spell in actual outcome if all you give it is one helper (such as GMW on arrows, or carrying a bag of splash weapons around).
Evanta 03-08-07, 01:28 AM	Sorcerer seems to be much better at levels 1-4, they can use nearly double the spells per encounter. I often see my party wizard cast 1-2 spells, then pretty much sit on their butt and hope to roll a 20 on their bows/crossbows. 5+ starts going to the wizard. Sorcerers still contribute more to combat, but wizards are extremely useful out of it, and crafting compensates somewhat. (though the cost of scribing spells and scrolls seems to hurt so very much esp. using PrCs that dun give out free new spells... ) Specialist straddle the middle line I think. But seriously the specialisation always hurts a lot even if you take the Evocation / Enchantment combo that seems to hurt the least. I dunno though, it seems to me that the warmage & beguiler made the evoker, enchanter and illusionist somewhat obselete, as they appear to be more effective pound for pound than a specialist of the same school?
Cardinal Teplin 03-08-07, 08:38 AM	Don't diss the bow! For a low level spellcaster, they may well be better at that than at damaging spells. My 1st level elven wizard was at +5 to hit with a bow. Is your 1st level fighter really any better? H
Evanta 03-08-07, 09:26 AM	Don't diss the bow! For a low level spellcaster, they may well be better at that than at damaging spells. My 1st level elven wizard was at +5 to hit with a bow. Is your 1st level fighter really any better? H No, but he has precise shot.. :D
solbergb 03-08-07, 12:26 PM	Yeah, my first level archer was a lot better. Wizard: +5 to hit, d8 damage (this is best case) "real" archer throwing javelin: +6 to hit, d6+5 damage (at point blank range) One wounds the falchion weilding orc warrior half the time instead of killing it. The other kills it no matter how the die rolls. Seriously, both kinds of arcanists should spend a significant amount of their first 1000gp on L1 scrolls that let them BE arcanists for 3 fights a day until they get a few more spell slots online. There are lots of wonderful L1 spells on the list that contribute a heck of a lot more than a crossbow shot, and that is especially true of the more typical arcane, who is lucky to muster a +2 to hit, as opposed to the above dex-focused elf wizard. The sorcerer is only better at low levels if you don't buy scrolls. If both do, it's about the same, with wizard using more scrolls but also saving a little cash by crafting them. The wizard only picks up power over the sorc in the mid levels if the sorc essentially picks the same spell known over and over and over (some do...they take magic missile, lesser orb of acid, burning hands, flaming sphere, scorching ray and maybe mage armor and wonder why they don't seem very versatile at level 5). A sorc with some variety in his picks will often have better utility than the wiz in actual play in the 5-7, because a lot of utility spells are better if you can cast them more than once a day and if they're on tap and not 15 minutes or 8-24 hours away. The wiz uses less scrolls as he levels because he has more slots. The sorc uses less scrolls as he levels because he has more spells known. BOTH progress in power and versatility at roughly the same rate, as long as the wiz makes good spell selections each day and the sorc makes good spell selections each time he levels (fixing holes in his capability by taking new spells known, or swapping out old ones that aren't working as well anymore)
Timlagor 03-08-07, 01:29 PM	At 3rd level the Wizard can have Glitterdust and Sculpted Grease. My Wizard used his crossbow a lot... because the fight was already won after the first spell or two: gotta give the fighters a chance you know!
Mattastrophic 03-08-07, 02:45 PM	At 3rd level the Wizard can have Glitterdust and Sculpted Grease. My Wizard used his crossbow a lot... because the fight was already won after the first spell or two: gotta give the fighters a chance you know! I gotta add to this one: Metamagic feats are overrated. Metamagic Rods are the way to go. They even eclipse the effects of three feats! (SpellFocus + Metamagic Feat + Metamagic School Focus) They do come in handy, however, when you run into the limit of only being able to apply one Rod charge per spell. I.E. Quicken Rod + Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement. And I found Aid Another more effective than taking crossbow shots. That then got replaced by Pearls I. -Matt
magebeast 03-08-07, 03:00 PM	The wiz uses less scrolls as he levels because he has more slots. The sorc uses less scrolls as he levels because he has more spells known. You mean this the other way around, right?
magebeast 03-08-07, 03:01 PM	I gotta add to this one: Metamagic feats are overrated. Metamagic Rods are the way to go. They even eclipse the effects of three feats! (SpellFocus + Metamagic Feat + Metamagic School Focus) -Matt The issue is getting access to these things.
bitznarf 03-08-07, 03:31 PM	You mean this the other way around, right? I don't think so, he has it right. A low level wizard would be burning scrolls because they don't have enough spell slots to cast as often as would be wanted. A low level sorcerer would be burning scrolls because they don't know as many spells. Thus, as they level up, their weaknesses get shored up, and in Brad's post.
Timlagor 03-08-07, 03:42 PM	The issue is getting access to these things [Metamagic Rods]. So true. The other issue is money of course. The chances of a 3rd level Wizard (or anyone else) having a lesser Rod of Shaping are pretty slim (especially if your Circle Member hates Metamagic Rods :weep:).
Redfist 03-08-07, 04:01 PM	Metamagic Rods are the way to go. -Matt That assumes you find access. I didn't see a Lesser Empower until 12th level and that was playing at APL 14. I still haven't seen any of the Quicken rods. The most common (in my experience) seems to be Silent followed by Extend.
Mattastrophic 03-08-07, 04:14 PM	That assumes you find access. Well, considering that I managed to find Lesser Empower access at 2nd level playing the Core Shedding Scales, I'd say they're out there. Then there was Lesser Quicken from All Roads Lead to Rauxes. They're not THAT rare. Once again, though, you can take a metamagic feat then retrain out of it later. -Matt
Dempster 03-08-07, 05:09 PM	If you want a purely game mechanics based answer I belive the generalist wizard is best. If they have learned a heathy suppy of spells especially the lower (1-3) level utility spells such as grease, spider climb, comprehend languages, obscuring mist,Tensers floating disk,knock,glitterdust,phantom steed, Leomands tiny hut,invisibility sphere, and fly they allow you to quickly overcome what would otherwise be very difficult obstacles.This is especialy true if they make good use of their scribe scoll feat to keep a good supply of these types of rarely used spells in reserve and use their daily spells for more commonly needed magic such as haste and good old damage spells. On the other hand, from the prospective of a role player the specialist wizard is more fun to play. They have more inherant flavor and are more of a chalange to play. With the relativly limited number of encounters in LG I see no real need to play a sorcerer. The sorcerers general lack spells and of useful skills, especialy knowledge skills, makes them much weaker outside of combat.
copper_wyrmling 03-08-07, 05:48 PM	With the relativly limited number of encounters in LG I see no real need to play a sorcerer. The sorcerers general lack spells and of useful skills, especialy knowledge skills, makes them much weaker outside of combat. Sorcerers have Charisma ;) My sorc has +15 untrained diplomacy / gather info before any lifestyle or favor modifiers (which by L12, stack up: she's gotten ~40 on untrained Gather Info checks in Hardby before any aids from her party members). Diplomacy would be +17 if she was a more typical sorcerer who'd bothered to invest 5 ranks in Bluff, but she didn't have the skill points to spare. That makes her a decent party face with very minimal investment, on tables which don't have a dedicated diplomat. She also has +22 Spellcraft, +23 UMD (+25 with scrolls), +16 Knowledge (Arcana) (+21 if she can touch her magic book), and +10 Knowledge (The Planes). She's starved for skillpoints - I would rebuild her with more Int and less Dex/Con if I had the opportunity - but even so, she's very versatile and useful out-of-combat. She's played healer on tables where nobody else had divine casting or UMD, she's played rogue with virtually-at-will detect magic + open / close + featherfall, she's played scout with enlarged message + fly + invisibility... and if there's someone on the table who's good at those roles, the spells go to help them instead. Wizards can do these things as well, but the UMD and social skills are based off her high Charisma (currently 20 before stat-boost items, or 24 with her cloak - there's a cloak upgrade in her near future), which a wizard can't really match. Wizards are also less likely to be willing to cast a particular spell whenever it seems like it might be useful ("Do you want to go have a look up ahead? Be invisible - we don't know that anything's there, but I have plenty of L2 slots. Oh, you want your cohort to go as well? Sure, they can be invisible too. And I'll put up an Enlarged Message so we can all talk to each other, just stay within 400 feet.") As soon as my sorcerer learned teleport, she could transport the entire party within seconds, if she was willing to burn the spells; by the time she learned phantom steed, she could take an hour and create a steed for everybody in the group, if overland mobility was required. Being able to cast Fly without worrying about saving it for a combat means that she just makes people fly whenever they need to, making it very easy to do aerial surveys of the area, retrieve items in precarious locations, get across trapped floors, etc. She also has cute tricks like sculpted fireball for snow-clearing, and sculpted prestidigitation to keep everyone dry or clean the floor really quickly so the maid can talk to us. And so on, and so on. You can make a sorcerer who's useless out of combat, but it's not a class feature. (In a recent mod, my sorcerer ran detect magic over all the weird magical paintings and books, got in the mid-30s on her spellcraft and knowledge (arcana) checks, and happily sat on the floor deciphering scrolls for an hour or so. Quite a number of the party members actually thought she was a wizard after that - I guess they figured she'd just prepped a lot of det magic / featherfall / fly / haste spells, since she'd used each of those three or four times by that point. She didn't realize that was what they were thinking until one of them asked her very politely to prepare some Slow spells for the dragon combat...)
Timlagor 03-09-07, 09:29 AM	"I really like travelling with Sorcerors." -Horalion Watersong, Wizard :) Wizards are better but once you have one, the second Arcanist should certainly be a Sorceror. (what do you mean you only take one Arcanist?)
solbergb 03-09-07, 11:43 AM	And so on, and so on. You can make a sorcerer who's useless out of combat, but it's not a class feature. What she said. Whose sorcerer keeps the rain off, clean a room in one action, can chain mend a tattered cloak, can open every door in the corridor of a burning building in one action, can transport an entire cohort of archers overland at lightwarhorse speeds, can enlist literally hundreds of unseen servants on tasks they're smart enough to do, can transport tens of thousands of pounds of stuff at light warhorse speeds, can move the entire party overland at phantom steed speeds, can clear away smoke or stench, put out fires, swamp boats, do remote manipulation from 1000' away, levitate thousands of pounds of stuff, spot magical traps, spot disguised creatures who have powerful spellcasting or spell like abiliites, minimize damage from falling objects, rescue falling innocents, transport the entire party across dangerous terrain with only low level slots, she can illuminate at range two different ways, she can keep "message" running all day, and she can do all of this from twice the usual ranges of such spells. And that's just her spells. She has quite respectable spellcraft, knowledge arcane, slight of hand and social skills, has very high bluff, has a little disable device and open locks (which has been repeatedly useful) knows how to make traps (when you have armies of unseen servant labor to dig pits and lay tripwires, it occasionally comes up) and has a familiar with good alertness skills, blindsense and who is smart enough to benefit from and contribute with all of her int-based skills. She can also swim a bit, hop up on a tenser's disk with a take 10 jump and can ride a horse well enough to guide with knees and not fall off if hit without rolling the die or needing a military saddle (this matters when your phantom steed may be going at breakneck speed or is flying....) She really never feels infererior to wizards in noncombat situations, and never has. Quite the opposite. All wizards ever seem to have are knowledge skills. She's more likely to have a useful spell or skill on tap for a noncombat challenge than they are, at least in the 1-11 level game. She's also never felt inferior in combat situations either. She's an arcanist, but she does the role differently from a wizard. Not better, not worse. Just different.
Rerednaw 03-09-07, 12:05 PM	Sorcerers have Charisma ;) My sorc has +15 untrained diplomacy / gather info before any lifestyle or favor modifiers (which by L12, stack up: she's gotten ~40 on untrained Gather Info checks in Hardby before any aids from her party members). ... Off-topic: +15 Dip/Gather Info before other modifiers? Pretty nice. Lots of skill points (16+ int) and a Circlet of Persuasion? Or do you something else that provides adds? Did you take the Negotiator feat?
Japangirl 03-09-07, 12:13 PM	I can attest that Solgberg's sorc is both useful and effective in and out of combat. Unseen Servant swarms are hilarious!
bitznarf 03-09-07, 12:22 PM	I can attest that Solgberg's sorc is both useful and effective in and out of combat. Unseen Servant swarms are hilarious! How do you do this anyway? I've heard of 'the swarm' but I don't know how it works.
copper_wyrmling 03-09-07, 12:47 PM	"I really like travelling with Sorcerors." -Horalion Watersong, Wizard :) Wizards are better but once you have one, the second Arcanist should certainly be a Sorceror. (what do you mean you only take one Arcanist?) And my sorcerer loves travelling with wizards. She also loves travelling with other sorcs, but it's cool to have somebody with different skills / strengths / weaknesses filling out the arcane role ;) And arcane-heavy parties are wonderful. One of my favorite tables ever, in a fairly tough Iuz mod, consisted of three sorcerers, a sorcerer/spellsword, and a fighter (at APL 12). She's also never felt inferior in combat situations either. She's an arcanist, but she does the role differently from a wizard. Not better, not worse. Just different. My sorc felt inferior in ONE combat situation - iirc, she was L3 playing APL 4, the wizard was L6, and we were told in advance exactly what we were facing, and that we needed to set up a trap for it. You can set up a really elaborate trap for a not-very-bright giant shadowblending bat with a spellbook full of up-to-third-level spells. It's a little harder when your non-cantrip and non-consumable spell resources consist of magic missile, color spray and mage armor (and the wizard was having so much fun, offering to spend on consumables seemed unnecessary). She did get to mage armor the monk we were using as bait, at least ;) I thought she was going to be fairly pathetic in a higher-APL mod (APL 10, she was L8, the wizard was L12), where we were attacking a red dragon's lair in a volcano: sure, she has non-fire damage options, but her fire-damage spells are just better. Our wizard prepped all cold spells and was feeling very smug ;) Of course, then it turned out that the gauntlet of monsters we had to get through before the dragon was exclusively cold-based: my sorc got to throw a lot of empowered scorching rays while the wizard used his staff of fire :) (When we finally made it to the dragon, she nailed it with a max-damage empowered ray of enfeeblement in the first round: the wizard's next action consisted of D-Dooring her out of the dragon's mouth. Azrien adores that wizard.) She's also felt a lot more effective than the party wizard in some situations, where she had the right spell for the job and they just didn't.
solbergb 03-09-07, 12:48 PM	basically servant hordes (L3 spell, spell compendium. There are other sources, but they (WOTC) keep lowering the level of the basic idea) are a way to translate move actions into multiple useful activities. Get enough of them working on one task and they can move useful loads. Get enough doing the same task for multple people and they replace actions. They're also expendible for manipulating potentially trapped things (and again, putting several on moving the same lever or whatever can overcome weight limits designed to defeat mage hand, open/close or a single servant) They're fragile, slow, stuff they carry is unattended and they're stupid. Also, about 3 modules after getting the spell, all the judges suddenly ruled that unseen servants have ground movement only. (which is a perfectly good ruling, but until I had more than one, most every judge ruled they could move in 3 dimensions) But many hands make light work. Any time speed isn't required, Olivia always has a swarm around. Usually enlarged, so she can do it out to 100' or so. Japangirl has a TWF halfling sneakmonster that they were capable of floating into TWF position while she delayed her turn. We talked about it more than doing it, actually, they're so slow the combat was often over before she got into position. But once or twice we got some real blender action going. The best thing about the servants though is low opportunity cost. I can order them to do things with move actions (direct the spell), or I can pop up a new horde somewhere they're needed with a std action (cast a spell) and have them do stuff (direct the spell) the same turn. Activating smokesticks, pouring potions down unconscious throats, rearming people who are disarmed or arming people who want to full attack, standing up the archer who fell down, moving bodies closer to a healer....lots of things are possible. Most of the time they don't do much except fetch the salt and they quite often pop from too much tactical movement or area effects. They also are ineffective against creatures or attended objects if the creature isn't willing (a big problem if your party members get confused or dominated and you'd like to use them to help) But I've saved several raise deads with them, and turned nasty tactical situations into much more manageable ones with well timed actions. These days I use TK violent thrust to toss light infantry types with many attacks and good balance/tumble skills at enemies, usually accompanied by enchanted arrows to soften up their intended victim. The servant horde is mostly used for utility stuff, and isn't as important a part of my arsenal as it was in the L8-9 range. Olivia played a mod early in where she was level 4, and the party had a bard, a mystic theurge and a full wizard, and the APL was 8. Any inferiority complex she might have had was dispelled after her enlarged mage hands avoided high level "close" range traps, her tenser disks got balance-challenged party members past narrow passages between lava pits, her relentless magic missiles chipped away at enemies that kept making saves and she singlehandedly rescued the level 10 barbarian from being swallowed by a Remhraz while everyone else was futiliy trying to blind them or disable them (enlarge+grease = BDF gets free). She also was the one who timed the see invis scroll perfectly to catch the ether creatures sneaking up, and who got everyone to start casting prot evil from scrolls when the dying noble salmander summoned a huge elemental as his final action. We waited it out. She played a few mods where a higher level arcane did the heavy lifting and she cleaned up the scraps, especially in the level 3-4 range, but that was because they were higher level, not a class thing. She also likes traveling with arcanists because there is usually very little spell overlap and there are just fun things arcane can do to reinforce each other.
copper_wyrmling 03-09-07, 12:57 PM	[/SIZE] Off-topic: +15 Dip/Gather Info before other modifiers? Pretty nice. Lots of skill points (16+ int) and a Circlet of Persuasion? Or do you something else that provides adds? Did you take the Negotiator feat? No skills. I did say "untrained" :) Az only has Int 12: she needs every point to qualify for feats and prestige classes that didn't exist when I built her :( It's an investment of one circlet of persuasion and Friendly Face as a known first-level spell (and a bunch of L1 spell slots to keep it running all day, but it's not like I use those slots on anything else, except the occasional guided shot / feather fall). It'll be +16 once she upgrades her cloak to +6, diplomacy will go to +23 if I ever decide that buying my regional-access greater choker of eloquence at a 25% discount is worth the money. I could get a sceptre of obedience to replace the circlet (I have access) and get another +2 provided I can hold the sceptre, but again, money is an issue - and I like having both hands free when travelling, one for spellcasting and one for drawing metamagic rods.
solbergb 03-09-07, 01:05 PM	Olivia "Metamagic rods...bah. Expensive boat-anchors that don't begin to substitute for just being able to treat spell restrictions as optional." (who by retirement will consider material components, verbal, somatic, spell area and spell range and several forms of spell targeting as optional, not dictated by the spell formula. She's already got most of it down except for verbal and somatic, and somatic isn't worth it till she can avoid using move actions when doing metamagic) Of course Olivia doesn't use energy spells and has no spells with variable effects higher than level 2, and none that she relies on as her primary focus.
copper_wyrmling 03-09-07, 01:26 PM	Olivia "Metamagic rods...bah. Expensive boat-anchors that don't begin to substitute for just being able to treat spell restrictions as optional." Azrien: "Hmmph. You liked my lesser rod of enlarge when we adventured together, for getting more range on your unseen servants. Metamagic is ALWAYS good, whether it's in your head or in a magic item." (who is a magical artist of sorts: her shtick is meddling with the effect of spells, dividing them and multiplying them and reshaping them. A metamagic rod would add to her palette of "colors" (i.e. energy types). Current plan for feats-at-retirement is Magical Aptitude, Empower Spell, Quicken Spell, Split Ray, Sculpt Spell, Rapid Metamagic, Ocular Spell... metamagic is fun.)
solbergb 03-09-07, 02:38 PM	Azrien: "Hmmph. You liked my lesser rod of enlarge when we adventured together, for getting more range on your unseen servants. Metamagic is ALWAYS good, whether it's in your head or in a magic item." I think you may be misremembering. Olivia has enlarge in her head from level 1. If she used the rod, it was just to use a L3 slot instead of a L4 slot. I think I remember carrying the rod in case I ran out of slots and then passing it back to you with unseen servants or dropping it near your square or something. We would have been better off not giving it to her in the first place. Olivia's taken a hit from a lesser rod extend from time to time because as a sorceress she'd normally just cast it again, so she can't really justify investing a feat in that, but spell slots are spell slots and if offered for free (ie not having to buy the rod HERSELF) she'll of course take it if nobody needs it more. Olivia has a pretty narrow focus spellwise. Some of her "retarget" effects are just other spells rather than metamagic. Like how ottiluke's sphere is what happens when you attempt to cast greater magic weapon on a creature instead of an object, and wall of force is what happens when you do an ottiluke's sphere with no creature as anchor, and solid fog is what happens when you do evards away from a surface, and levitate is a tenser disk designed to go up instead of sideways. Doing stuff away from surfaces is oddly difficult, which is why the levitate duration is so short, and why GMW last longer than ottiluke's sphere, and the sphere lasts longer than wall of force. Not all of her experiments are successful. Shatter, for example, was her early attempt to aim magic missile at objects and was was shelved until she could "do it right" (disintegrate). The weight limits bugged her, as did the use of noisy sound and resonance instead of simply disassembling the component bits at a low level without flashy and wasteful side-effects like she does with magic missile, she disliked how it couldn't affect magic and etc etc...net net she only had it for a couple adventures. It would be a lot harder to ignore spell restrictions if I actually used each spell known for something unrelated to every other spell known.
copper_wyrmling 03-09-07, 03:53 PM	I think you may be misremembering. Olivia has enlarge in her head from level 1. If she used the rod, it was just to use a L3 slot instead of a L4 slot. *nods* I mentioned I had a lesser rod of enlarge at the start of the mod, Olivia asked if she could borrow it to enlarge the servant horde, because at that stage she was only L9 and L4 slots were her top tier. She did give it back to Az at one point, but Az didn't use it in that fight, because she was better off readying orbs of force to disrupt the enemy spellcasters than zapping them on her action with enlarged scorching rays (she couldn't enlarge her real boom spells because they were outside the level range of the rod). It would've been even better if I'd managed to pick the right spellcaster to disrupt: I think I stopped a Slow spell from the arcanist and then the cleric flamestriked you and the building :( Olivia has a pretty narrow focus spellwise. Some of her "retarget" effects are just other spells rather than metamagic. Like how ottiluke's sphere is what happens when you attempt to cast greater magic weapon on a creature instead of an object, and wall of force is what happens when you do an ottiluke's sphere with no creature as anchor, and solid fog is what happens when you do evards away from a surface, and levitate is a tenser disk designed to go up instead of sideways. Doing stuff away from surfaces is oddly difficult, which is why the levitate duration is so short, and why GMW last longer than ottiluke's sphere, and the sphere lasts longer than wall of force. Not all of her experiments are successful. Shatter, for example, was her early attempt to aim magic missile at objects and was was shelved until she could "do it right" (disintegrate). The weight limits bugged her, as did the use of noisy sound and resonance instead of simply disassembling the component bits at a low level without flashy and wasteful side-effects like she does with magic missile, she disliked how it couldn't affect magic and etc etc...net net she only had it for a couple adventures. It would be a lot harder to ignore spell restrictions if I actually used each spell known for something unrelated to every other spell known. Az and Olivia have very different flavor, which is cool :) Az is a lot more childlike (being ten years younger and growing up among a longer-lived race), and most of her magic that's not messing around with primal chaotic energy (i.e. a wild mage's stock in trade) is pure wish-fulfilment: "I want to be able to fly, I want to be able to hide from annoying authority figures, I want to be able to visit my friends on the other side of the world, I want other people to like me, I want a horse of my own..." (although I draw the line at describing Phantom Steed as "I want a pony!", she's not THAT childish). She adores all forms of magic and has a supremely good intuitive understanding of magic and magical items (magical aptitude feat and massive spellcraft / UMD modifiers despite not having max ranks in either), but she doesn't really analyse it - she just assumes that if she ever wants to do something, the Magic will make it possible. All the ways in which she manipulates energy are inspired by her experiences and by the Dreaming, some overtly and some at a subconscious level. Olivia, as I understand it, is much more of a magical experimentalist / researcher specializing in a particular branch of magic (i.e. the Rhennee magical tradition with an emphasis on the telekinetic effects), who is SO adept in her field that she can ignore most of the usual spell restrictions. Az just doesn't classify magic like that: if she wants to be able to do something, then she just needs to figure out how to explain it to the Magic, and then it'll work (for example, a wizard showed her Teleport at L8, then she spent two levels figuring out that it involved taking shortcuts through the Astral Plane, and working on how to convey the concept of the Astral Plane in her spellcasting). If I remember your explanation correctly, Limited Wish for Olivia will be a matter of, "My understanding of magic as a whole is now strong enough that I can replicate effects outside my speciality", while for Azrien it's, "I am now sufficiently a creature of magic that if I sacrifice a bit of my life-force as part of the ritual, I can communicate directly with the Magic, and then I can get it to do very nearly anything". The system is nice like that, you can flavor your characters in so many different ways :)
Timlagor 03-10-07, 05:23 PM	She's also felt a lot more effective than the party wizard in some situations, where she had the right spell for the job and they just didn't. Well obviously the Wizard wouldn't prepare a spell you already had (assuming they considered you easily bossed about competent and resourseful ;))
copper_wyrmling 03-10-07, 08:26 PM	Something I just thought of, with regard to the original topic of the thread: the degree to which a generalist differs from a specialist depends dramatically on which schools are banned. A divination specialist who bans enchantment or necromancy seems really very much like a generalist, in my experience - the differences are pretty minor, and they've already been discussed. A specialist who bans conjuration or transmutation (or both) has to work much harder to ensure that they can still fill the "primary arcanist" role in a party. It's still possible, but it's kinda like playing a cleric who channels negative energy: you need to make sure that your table realizes what you can and can't do. Not being able to cast haste or any variant of Fly (or greater magic weapon, or the stat-boosters for crafting) makes a BIG difference at certain APLs, and conjuration has D-Door and Teleport as well as most of the best SR:no damage and battlefield control spells. Anyway, just a thought...
jstorrie 03-10-07, 08:57 PM	Don't diss the bow! For a low level spellcaster, they may well be better at that than at damaging spells. That's not saying much, since damaging spells are a very, very poor tactical choice for low-level wizards. Until you can throw down scorching rays an arcanist really ought to focus on buffing, debuffing, and/or utility, with a smattering of save-or-loses.
Hariman 03-10-07, 11:48 PM	That's not saying much, since damaging spells are a very, very poor tactical choice for low-level wizards. Until you can throw down scorching rays an arcanist really ought to focus on buffing, debuffing, and/or utility, with a smattering of save-or-loses. Orbers are an exception to this rule. They can do damage and stay safe. The downside is they often have to resort to a crossbow or a bow once they're spells run out. 1d8+1 (Precise shot) on a ranged touch attack is nothing to sneeze at low levels. BUT, sometimes you do need damage. My sorcerer had Magic Missile and Grease as his first level spells to start with. His choice of MM saved his bacon from a ghost (With a little help from Disrupt Undead) at APL 2. And nobody EVER complained about the magic missile damage when all I could do was toss MM around. And grease never hurt too. In fact, one of the party members was once SAVED by slipping in grease. As for specialists, generalists and sorcerers? Yes, Specialists who ban conjuration and/or transmutation take a major hit. That just makes it that much harder to be "good", but it's not impossible. Generalists run the risk of having TOO MUCH and not prepping the right spells. (Scrolls help, as do wands) Sorcerers are the exact opposite of generalists. They'll only have the perfect spell some of the time, but when they do, they'll have a lot of it. It's all in the player choices. Hariman PS: Negative energy clerics should prep a decent number of healing spells, or carry/craft wands. PPS: Why is scorching ray so spectacular? It just doesn't seem that good to me. And I've got a ranged touch focused halfling rogue wizard. I'd prefer Blast of Force or a Lesser Orb of Electricity.
magebeast 03-11-07, 12:28 AM	PPS: Why is scorching ray so spectacular? It just doesn't seem that good to me. And I've got a ranged touch focused halfling rogue wizard. I'd prefer Blast of Force or a Lesser Orb of Electricity. It's spectacular because of the damage it does when you get it. Compared to the damage other spells do when you get scorching ray, scorching ray is amazing.
copper_wyrmling 03-11-07, 12:37 AM	PPS: Why is scorching ray so spectacular? It just doesn't seem that good to me. And I've got a ranged touch focused halfling rogue wizard. I'd prefer Blast of Force or a Lesser Orb of Electricity. Scorching Ray has weird scaling that means it does very good damage for its level at certain caster levels, if the target doesn't have fire resistance or significant SR (admittedly that can be a big "if") - in particular, it has a very high damage cap for a L2 spell. Lesser orb of electricity caps at 5d8 (average 23.5), blast of force caps at 5d6 (average 17.5), scorching ray caps at 12d6 (average 42). That makes it work better as a base for stacking on metamagic feats at high level. Up to L7, sure, it's not that great. Scorching Ray does 4d6 at L5-6 (average 14), lesser orb of electricity does 3d8 (average 13.5), the lesser orb is probably a better choice since it ignores SR and uses a less common energy type. You can also empower the lesser orb with a third-level slot. Blast of Force does 3d6 at L6, but it's force damage and it also has a secondary effect. At those levels, scorching ray is indeed pretty meh. At L7, suddenly scorching ray does 8d6, twice as much as it did the previous level, and for raw damage it immediately outstrips all its competitors. Wizards have L4 slots at that stage, and if they want to nuke, an empowered scorching ray is ~12d6 - that's more than half again as much damage as the orbs. Sorcerers get the empowered scorching ray goodness at L8 and can immediately fling four of them per day, if they choose to spend their slots on that. My sorc particularly adored scorching ray because she's a wild mage. At L8, her most beloved campaign card was Arcane Influx: it gave her a 1/3 chance of getting three rays on her scorching rays. Getting to roll 12d6 and then multiply by 1.5 in APL 6-8 games was fun ;) (It was fun in APL 10 games too, but didn't provoke quite so many cries of "How the ***!?" at that APL ;) )
Cardinal Teplin 03-11-07, 01:46 PM	...the degree to which a generalist differs from a specialist depends dramatically on which schools are banned. A divination specialist who bans enchantment or necromancy seems really very much like a generalist, in my experience - the differences are pretty minor, and they've already been discussed. A specialist who bans conjuration or transmutation (or both) has to work much harder to ensure that they can still fill the "primary arcanist" role in a party. Of course, this is assuming that you have a fairly set idea of what spells a generalist has. Banning evocation has very little effect on a generalist who doesn't often take evocation spells. Banning divination has a huge effect on a wizard who uses lots of divination spells. A lot of the consideration for whether to go for a specialist is what spells you are going to want to memorise. It's very hard to argue that a wizard who doesn't intend to ever cast from two schools of magic shouldn't be a specialist, and it's equally hard to argue that a wizard who wants to cast spells from every school should specialise. The comment that started this thread, from Mr jenks, was in favour of generalist wizards. Ken Jenks has gone through EVERY spell in EVERY book and analysed each in detail. The idea that his ideal list would include spells from every school is thus hardly surprising, and he certainly favours the generalist over the specialist. Equally, if you are pursuing a build whereby gain significant advantages in casting spells from a particular school or set of schools, such as the alienist's focus on conjuratuion/summoing, or the argent savant's focus on force spells, then it behooves you to use spells from those schools wherever possible, to maximise your advantage. Playing a specialist in such circumstances has a much lower opportunity cost, because you are already focusing your spell select on a particular sub-set of spells in any case. Assuming the number of combat spells (spells cast during combat) is roughly the same in each case, a generalist has the advantage of a greater variety of schools from which to choose a slightly smaller selection of spells. The specialist has a greater number and thus variety of spells memorised, but can't all kinds of spell. One thing I'd be interested in is knowing how much the spells memorised differ from a specialist to a generalist. Is the difference likely to be any greater than might already exist because of different ideas of how to play a wizard?
copper_wyrmling 03-11-07, 03:10 PM	Of course, this is assuming that you have a fairly set idea of what spells a generalist has. Banning evocation has very little effect on a generalist who doesn't often take evocation spells. Banning divination has a huge effect on a wizard who uses lots of divination spells. Well, you can't ban divination ;) The reason I mentioned conjuration and transmutation was that when I tried to write an answer to the thread "What should every wizard have?", it became immediately apparent that at the highest APLs, most of what I expect from someone who advertises themselves as a "primary arcane caster" comes from the transmutation / conjuration schools. If I'm playing APL 14 and the party's wizard has no way to fly (or make others fly) and no way to cover a lot of ground fast (haste, phantom steed, teleportation magic), then I need to know that going into the mod, because by that APL authors tend to assume that the party will have a certain degree of mobility. I've seen an APL 10 module which was pretty much an auto-fail if you didn't have some way to fly or teleport (potions of fly were fine); I've also done an APL 14 assault on a fortified position over 800ft of open ground where the defenders had brilliant energy arrows and Enlarge Spell. The latter case would've been FAR easier if we'd had anything approaching APL-appropriate mobility magic (my cleric was the sole spellcaster, and it's really hard to imitate arcane casting as well as filling the primary divine caster role when you're below APL). I do assume that a generalist wizard at APL 12-14 will have some way to get off the ground if necessary, some way to get themselves or others out of grapples, some way to bypass common terrain obstacles (chasms, bogs, etc), and some way of dealing with spell-resistant or spell-immune creatures. It seems to me that some of those assumptions may be incorrect when dealing with specialists who banned particular schools.
Timlagor 03-11-07, 05:40 PM	All Schools are not equal. I don't think anyone seriously doubts that Transmutation and Conjuration have more better (arcane) spells than other schools. You can ban them but you should be aware that you are making your life significantly harder -doesn't mean you can be effective you you will have to work harder to provide the same level of contribution.
copper_wyrmling 03-11-07, 06:13 PM	Well obviously the Wizard wouldn't prepare a spell you already had (assuming they considered you easily bossed about competent and resourseful ;)) Azrien is normally perfectly happy to be bossed about by wizards / go along with the smart people's plans ;) Of course, since most wizards are exactly as wise as Azrien, sometimes their clever plans backfire... Case in point of both what I was talking about earlier (having the right spells for the job in sufficient quantity to make a difference) and what I'm talking about here: Party contains Azrien and a wizard of equal level (both 10). Wizard is Azrien's superior in their meta-org ('cause he had Mage of the Arcane Order levels). After a scry + teleport from the wizard followed by two teleports from Azrien (because we needed to get the entire party to a certain location quickly), we run into a situation where we need to rescue an NPC who's about to be whomped by two giant monsters. Wizard: "Okay, Azrien. I'll delay for you, you teleport us both next to the NPC, then I'll D-Door us out." Azrien: "Sure! Sounds good!" (cue one perfectly executed teleportation rescue) Giant Monster: "Bad wizard, stealing my target!" (grabs and grapples wizard and goes underwater) Wizard: "Uh... guys? That was my only D-Door, and I cast my Teleport earlier. I mean... glub, glub, glub." Azrien: "Nobody eats my wizards!" (jumps into water, casts teleport defensively, touches wizard, pops out 200ft in the air and featherfalls them both) Wizard: "Thanks. I want to save my mass fly... I polymorph into an arrowhawk." Giant Air Elemental: "Ooh, squishy featherfalling sorceress." (moves to intercept) Azrien: "Yay! Target!" For the rest of the combat, everyone ELSE fought the original monster, while Azrien took down the elder air elemental with empowered scorching rays (at L10, wild magicked scorching rays were sooooo nice). Incidentally, at that con, each table got three awards, for "Best Roleplayer", "Best Tactician", and "Dumb-Ass Act". Azrien's wild leap into the sea to rescue her meta-org promotion opportunities got nominated for all three, although they eventually settled on "Dumb-Ass Act" ;)
Cardinal Teplin 03-11-07, 06:40 PM	It seems to me that some of those assumptions may be incorrect when dealing with specialists who banned particular schools. Sure, but then it might be of a generalist too. Deciding not to take certain spells is deciding not to take certain spells, whether it is done at the start at character creation (specialist), at each level (sorceror) or at the start of the day (generalist). Now you could come right out and say that all wizards should have fly, and any wizard that doesn't is a problem. Or teleport, or some form of direct damage, or the ability to dispel magic, etc. If you take the view that wizards should be judged by the minimum capabilities they can be relied on to bring to a table, then specialists will come across badly.
Timlagor 03-11-07, 10:10 PM	I wouldn't say that all wizards must have X but I would say that if they don't do X they should notify the party that they don't do it. Of course I'm a big fan of discussing spells before you set out anyway. A generalist will usually have a lot of spells in their book (especially now anyone can get a BBB as soon as they can scrape together 6kgp and a dozen Secret Page spells). The closest I'd come to such a proscription is: "A wizard must be able to adapt their spell choice to the adventuring party." ..and even then a Summoner could contribute effectively with nothing but Summon Monster spells.
Rerednaw 03-12-07, 09:23 AM	No skills. I did say "untrained" :)...Blarg posting on no sleep. :D
solbergb 03-12-07, 11:54 AM	"My understanding of magic as a whole is now strong enough that I can replicate effects outside my speciality", Close. It's more like. "Limited wish is just Fabricate with another name, applied to magic instead of objects. I assemble the spell like a puzzle box, using raw bits of magic". The XP cost is because she has to come up with the raw materials somewhere, and the most convenient source is her own magic. At this point she's got high KN arcane, spellcraft, the ability to create and destroy force effects and the ability to unravel magical effects (greater dispel) by picking at them the same way she unravels physical objects (disintegrate) and creatures (magic missile, disintegrate). She's also had arcane sight for a couple years, and has used it to watch how magic spells are formed, both during "preparation" time and when casting. Once you can disassemble something, you can now think about assembling it from scratch. It's still just manipulation. Crafting magical effecs. I am not sure which of Fabricate or Limited Wish I'll take first, I may even take them at the same time, if I can stand to wait till level 13 for limited wish.
magebeast 03-12-07, 06:22 PM	It's still just manipulation. Crafting magical effecs. I am not sure which of Fabricate or Limited Wish I'll take first, I may even take them at the same time, if I can stand to wait till level 13 for limited wish. How, precisely, do you plan to take limited wish at 13 with a sorcerer?
solbergb 03-13-07, 09:53 AM	I meant 15. Had a brain freeze.
magebeast 03-13-07, 10:30 AM	I meant 15. Had a brain freeze. Okay. I just wanted to know so I could duplicate it :P
Paul H 03-13-07, 12:54 PM	Please don't flame me!!! I am thinking about multi-classing as a Warmage/Wizard. 1st level Warmage 3 levels Wizard (at third character level take practiced spellcaster) After that many more warmage levels. Personally I am hoping that the Warmage spells will be decent enough to take care of combat (i.e. Hail of stones at 3rd level will be 3d4+4 no saving throw) While 1st and second wizard spells will be versitile enough to be helpful in other situations. I know Ult Magus would be perfect for me (But it's closed so be it) Anyone doing something similiar? Hi I was also hoping for Ultimate Magus, but for my Dakon Cohort. (Now Wiz3/Warmage 3). Problem with Hail of Stones is the cost (5gp) plus full round to cast. One problem with Wiz/Warmage is arcane spell failure. My Cohort wears mithril chain shirt (10%ASF), but main focus is blast spells from Warmage. Uses his Wiz levels for non-blast spells. (See Invis, etc). One idea I had was Grey Elf Wiz 1/Warmagexxxxx. Int bonus to damage. Scribe Scroll. Know Religion for Arcane Disciple. Plus Grey Elf weapons & good dex for AC & targeting Lssr Orbs..... Cheers Paul H