Spell Casters: Loss of Ability Score [Archive] - Wizards Community

Spell Casters: Loss of Ability Score [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
SoupmanRC
05-20-05, 05:58 PM Hi,

Certain spells, such as Touch of Idiocy and Feeblemind, are detrimental to spellcasters, in particular arcane casters. When affected by either of these spells, that character is effectively shutdown until the effect wears off or is removed. When an arcane caster gets hit with a spell that affects his ability score(s), it also directly affects those spells that the caster has memorized.

If a character, pc or npc, gets affected by these types of spells, do the spells they have memorized (and that are affected) go away?

Feeblemind reduces the character's Intelligence score to 1. When the character is returned to his/her normal intelligence level, do they retain the spells that they had memorized previously or is their mind essentially wiped clean?

Touch of Idiocy is similar, but it is not as deeply affecting. Are the spells that are not available retained when the character is returned to normal as well?

It is my understanding that these spells are indeed lost until memorized again. This is what makes Feeblemind and Touch of Idiocy so devastating to arcane spell casters in particular.

I have played my wizard for several years (14th level) in the RPGA and have been hit once by both and there are no specifics detailed anywhere (even online). Being a player of D&D for over 20 years, I have always assumed that when such effects occur, they do indeed wipe those spells tied to those abilities from the casters mind since the capability (the ability score) has been removed or altered:

DMG 3.5 (page 214, under Saving Throws Against Magic Item Powers)
"Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects."

PHB 3.5 (page 178, under Prepared Spell Retention)
"Certain other events, such as the effects of magic items or special attacks from monsters, can wipe out a prepared spell from a character's mind."

MM 3.5 (page 315, under Spells)
"Sometimes a creature can cast spells just as a member of a spellcasting class...And are subject to the same spellcasting rules that characters are..."

MM II (page 13 and page 15, under Special Attacks)
Spellcasting is listed as a special attack, with the same text as found in MM 3.5, page 315.

Conclusion
When the ability score is reduced, then access to those spells is wiped from the caster's mind (as shown above). Now the access to those spells (i.e. spell levels) is based on the character's level, not the ability score and is therefore retained. From a rules standpoint, the loss of spells to a spell caster is detrimental (bards and sorcerer's don't have to prepare their spells).
Feeblemind is potent, but provides a saving throw and is of adequate level. Touch of Idiocy is too low (should be a 3rd or 4th level spell).

If anyone has any other thoughts, in particular WoC and/or RPGA Rules Guys, please post them. An errata to the PHB concerning this issue would be much appreciated, especially at RPGA events.

Sincerely,

Ryan M. Campbell
RPGA 498279
King Kashue
05-20-05, 09:26 PM I don't see or know of anything to suggest that you're wrong, so I'm not sure why clarification is necessary...It seems to be an issue without conflicting info (and thus, no conflict to solve = no need for a ruling)...
SoupmanRC
05-21-05, 01:03 AM Cases have occured where another character would immediately correct the ability score loss (through a spell such as Heal, Wish, Miracle, etc. , though these spells specifically do not return lost spells) and yet retained all of their spells. This weakens the effect of Feeblemind and Touch of Idiocy.

A solid APL 10 party would most certainly have at least one divine caster able to cast Heal (11th level Divine minimum) or Restoration (7th level Divine minimum) which will restore lost ability scores, even permanent ones. The Touch of Idiocy, can be readily fixed by any of the Restoration family of spells. Even though the wizard can memorize some spells within an hour or so (per PHB 3.5), the loss of all arcane spells is what makes these spells so dangerous when they work.

A clarification under Chapter 10: Magic in the PHB describing the effects of ability score loss with spell casters, arcane or divine, would be much appreciated. Most DMs, as well as players, do not know the answer or are unable to provide a solution since it is not directly addressed in any of the books (to my knowledge).
King Kashue
05-21-05, 05:48 AM Cases have occured where another character would immediately correct the ability score loss (through a spell such as Heal, Wish, Miracle, etc. , though these spells specifically do not return lost spells) and yet retained all of their spells.

Uh, what cases? DM rulings at tables, or something out of the rule books?
RLWilde
05-24-05, 01:04 AM It is my understanding that these spells are indeed lost until memorized again. This is what makes Feeblemind and Touch of Idiocy so devastating to arcane spell casters in particular.

I have played my wizard for several years (14th level) in the RPGA and have been hit once by both and there are no specifics detailed anywhere (even online). Being a player of D&D for over 20 years, I have always assumed that when such effects occur, they do indeed wipe those spells tied to those abilities from the casters mind since the capability (the ability score) has been removed or altered
I generally play cleric-types, and have been following the same guidelines.

One variation I have seen from DM to DM is in regard to slots that are empty when the stat reduction occurs. For example, say a wizard has 3 3rd level spell slots, and an Intelligence score of 17... Fireball, Lightning Bolt, and Dispel Magic. During the course of an adventure, the wizard casts the Fireball, and then later that day has his Intelligence reduced to 15. Does he lose one of his 2 remaining spells, or is he able to "lose" the slot which has already been emptied?

As far as the spell Touch of Idiocy goes, I think it's okay as a second level spell (though I believe it's at the upper end of the power curve for that level). It's a penalty to an ability, not ability damage/ drain, so multiple castings won't stack. (note... I'm using the SRD as my source right now, but I believe the same is true in the PH)
SoupmanRC
05-24-05, 04:11 PM There is no general consensus regarding the issue.

For example:

Mjar the Wizard has an unmodified intelligence of 18 and is 13th level. This gives him access to 7th level spells (due to intelligence and level). It is a brand new day and he has all of his spells memorized for the new day. Mjar trips and falls on a trap that casts Feeblemind on him. He fails the saving throw and has his intelligence reduced to 1. As his base intelligence score is reduced to 1, he loses his spells (all of them) because he no longer has the capability/capacity to even deduce what a spell is. Touch of Idiocy functions the same way, though on a limited scale. If you memorize your spells, they go bye-bye until you memorize them again.

Certain spells cast upon poor Mjar may get a spell or two back (Wish-Miracle-Limited Wish can give a spell or two back to Mjar). Heal only returns him back to his normal Intelligence score, it does not replace spells memorized.

The spell slots do not go away, just the spells in them. For example, Mjar gets hit with Touch of Idiocy and loses 6 Intelligence points, lowering his score (albeit temporary) to 12. Now he loses all 3rd – 7th level spells since he has lost his mental capacity and the ability to remember the energies used for those spells. Of course, he can memorize a few 1st and 2nd level spells in the interim and can stick those spells in the higher level slots, until he get Healed or the effects go away.

With this scenario in mind, is it functionally valid? When hit with Feeblemind and ToI, do you lose the memorized spells that are dependent on the requisite ability score to cast? If Mjar loses the capability to cast 7th level spells because his Intelligence score is reduced to 1, can it be assumed that the ability to retain a memorized spell is also reduced?

My belief is that if you lose the ability to cast a spell due to a reduced ability score, then the spells memorized in those slots disappear as though never there.
RWarehall
05-25-05, 06:13 PM Here's my take...
Nowhere in anything mentioned above does it say that the spells disappear. My take is that the memorized arcane energies are still there, it's just that you have become too stupid to release it. As such, if the intelligence (or other requisite ability) is restored, you may cast them at that point.

Furthermore, if you look at the actual text of the Touch of Idiocy spell, for example, there is no mention of losing memorized spells, only that if one's requisite ability is too low, one may not be able to cast it.

As to the mention of effects causing the loss of spell slots, I'd guess they are referring to Energy Drain where a caster loses his/her highest memorized spell per level of drain.

I believe the reason this issue was never clarified is simply because you do not lose the spells in memory. If you would actually lose them, I'd expect that to be specifically mentioned in the spell description. Instead, the only items mentioned are one's inability to cast spells and that if the effect is removed, you may cast again.

Unless a specific reference can be presented from any official source book that one actually loses spell slots one cannot cast, I'd judge that the spell only does what is specifically mentioned in the description, nothing more, nothing less.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SoupmanRC 05-20-05, 05:58 PM	Hi, Certain spells, such as Touch of Idiocy and Feeblemind, are detrimental to spellcasters, in particular arcane casters. When affected by either of these spells, that character is effectively shutdown until the effect wears off or is removed. When an arcane caster gets hit with a spell that affects his ability score(s), it also directly affects those spells that the caster has memorized. If a character, pc or npc, gets affected by these types of spells, do the spells they have memorized (and that are affected) go away? Feeblemind reduces the character's Intelligence score to 1. When the character is returned to his/her normal intelligence level, do they retain the spells that they had memorized previously or is their mind essentially wiped clean? Touch of Idiocy is similar, but it is not as deeply affecting. Are the spells that are not available retained when the character is returned to normal as well? It is my understanding that these spells are indeed lost until memorized again. This is what makes Feeblemind and Touch of Idiocy so devastating to arcane spell casters in particular. I have played my wizard for several years (14th level) in the RPGA and have been hit once by both and there are no specifics detailed anywhere (even online). Being a player of D&D for over 20 years, I have always assumed that when such effects occur, they do indeed wipe those spells tied to those abilities from the casters mind since the capability (the ability score) has been removed or altered: DMG 3.5 (page 214, under Saving Throws Against Magic Item Powers) "Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects." PHB 3.5 (page 178, under Prepared Spell Retention) "Certain other events, such as the effects of magic items or special attacks from monsters, can wipe out a prepared spell from a character's mind." MM 3.5 (page 315, under Spells) "Sometimes a creature can cast spells just as a member of a spellcasting class...And are subject to the same spellcasting rules that characters are..." MM II (page 13 and page 15, under Special Attacks) Spellcasting is listed as a special attack, with the same text as found in MM 3.5, page 315. Conclusion When the ability score is reduced, then access to those spells is wiped from the caster's mind (as shown above). Now the access to those spells (i.e. spell levels) is based on the character's level, not the ability score and is therefore retained. From a rules standpoint, the loss of spells to a spell caster is detrimental (bards and sorcerer's don't have to prepare their spells). Feeblemind is potent, but provides a saving throw and is of adequate level. Touch of Idiocy is too low (should be a 3rd or 4th level spell). If anyone has any other thoughts, in particular WoC and/or RPGA Rules Guys, please post them. An errata to the PHB concerning this issue would be much appreciated, especially at RPGA events. Sincerely, Ryan M. Campbell RPGA 498279
King Kashue 05-20-05, 09:26 PM	I don't see or know of anything to suggest that you're wrong, so I'm not sure why clarification is necessary...It seems to be an issue without conflicting info (and thus, no conflict to solve = no need for a ruling)...
SoupmanRC 05-21-05, 01:03 AM	Cases have occured where another character would immediately correct the ability score loss (through a spell such as Heal, Wish, Miracle, etc. , though these spells specifically do not return lost spells) and yet retained all of their spells. This weakens the effect of Feeblemind and Touch of Idiocy. A solid APL 10 party would most certainly have at least one divine caster able to cast Heal (11th level Divine minimum) or Restoration (7th level Divine minimum) which will restore lost ability scores, even permanent ones. The Touch of Idiocy, can be readily fixed by any of the Restoration family of spells. Even though the wizard can memorize some spells within an hour or so (per PHB 3.5), the loss of all arcane spells is what makes these spells so dangerous when they work. A clarification under Chapter 10: Magic in the PHB describing the effects of ability score loss with spell casters, arcane or divine, would be much appreciated. Most DMs, as well as players, do not know the answer or are unable to provide a solution since it is not directly addressed in any of the books (to my knowledge).
King Kashue 05-21-05, 05:48 AM	Cases have occured where another character would immediately correct the ability score loss (through a spell such as Heal, Wish, Miracle, etc. , though these spells specifically do not return lost spells) and yet retained all of their spells. Uh, what cases? DM rulings at tables, or something out of the rule books?
RLWilde 05-24-05, 01:04 AM	It is my understanding that these spells are indeed lost until memorized again. This is what makes Feeblemind and Touch of Idiocy so devastating to arcane spell casters in particular. I have played my wizard for several years (14th level) in the RPGA and have been hit once by both and there are no specifics detailed anywhere (even online). Being a player of D&D for over 20 years, I have always assumed that when such effects occur, they do indeed wipe those spells tied to those abilities from the casters mind since the capability (the ability score) has been removed or altered I generally play cleric-types, and have been following the same guidelines. One variation I have seen from DM to DM is in regard to slots that are empty when the stat reduction occurs. For example, say a wizard has 3 3rd level spell slots, and an Intelligence score of 17... Fireball, Lightning Bolt, and Dispel Magic. During the course of an adventure, the wizard casts the Fireball, and then later that day has his Intelligence reduced to 15. Does he lose one of his 2 remaining spells, or is he able to "lose" the slot which has already been emptied? As far as the spell Touch of Idiocy goes, I think it's okay as a second level spell (though I believe it's at the upper end of the power curve for that level). It's a penalty to an ability, not ability damage/ drain, so multiple castings won't stack. (note... I'm using the SRD as my source right now, but I believe the same is true in the PH)
SoupmanRC 05-24-05, 04:11 PM	There is no general consensus regarding the issue. For example: Mjar the Wizard has an unmodified intelligence of 18 and is 13th level. This gives him access to 7th level spells (due to intelligence and level). It is a brand new day and he has all of his spells memorized for the new day. Mjar trips and falls on a trap that casts Feeblemind on him. He fails the saving throw and has his intelligence reduced to 1. As his base intelligence score is reduced to 1, he loses his spells (all of them) because he no longer has the capability/capacity to even deduce what a spell is. Touch of Idiocy functions the same way, though on a limited scale. If you memorize your spells, they go bye-bye until you memorize them again. Certain spells cast upon poor Mjar may get a spell or two back (Wish-Miracle-Limited Wish can give a spell or two back to Mjar). Heal only returns him back to his normal Intelligence score, it does not replace spells memorized. The spell slots do not go away, just the spells in them. For example, Mjar gets hit with Touch of Idiocy and loses 6 Intelligence points, lowering his score (albeit temporary) to 12. Now he loses all 3rd – 7th level spells since he has lost his mental capacity and the ability to remember the energies used for those spells. Of course, he can memorize a few 1st and 2nd level spells in the interim and can stick those spells in the higher level slots, until he get Healed or the effects go away. With this scenario in mind, is it functionally valid? When hit with Feeblemind and ToI, do you lose the memorized spells that are dependent on the requisite ability score to cast? If Mjar loses the capability to cast 7th level spells because his Intelligence score is reduced to 1, can it be assumed that the ability to retain a memorized spell is also reduced? My belief is that if you lose the ability to cast a spell due to a reduced ability score, then the spells memorized in those slots disappear as though never there.
RWarehall 05-25-05, 06:13 PM	Here's my take... Nowhere in anything mentioned above does it say that the spells disappear. My take is that the memorized arcane energies are still there, it's just that you have become too stupid to release it. As such, if the intelligence (or other requisite ability) is restored, you may cast them at that point. Furthermore, if you look at the actual text of the Touch of Idiocy spell, for example, there is no mention of losing memorized spells, only that if one's requisite ability is too low, one may not be able to cast it. As to the mention of effects causing the loss of spell slots, I'd guess they are referring to Energy Drain where a caster loses his/her highest memorized spell per level of drain. I believe the reason this issue was never clarified is simply because you do not lose the spells in memory. If you would actually lose them, I'd expect that to be specifically mentioned in the spell description. Instead, the only items mentioned are one's inability to cast spells and that if the effect is removed, you may cast again. Unless a specific reference can be presented from any official source book that one actually loses spell slots one cannot cast, I'd judge that the spell only does what is specifically mentioned in the description, nothing more, nothing less.