Spontaneous casters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Spontaneous casters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tungar
03-14-06, 03:07 PM I have a question about spontaneous casters :
can spontaneous casters learn (know) lower level spells in their higher level slots ?

Thanks.
ShinAkuma2
03-14-06, 04:07 PM Nope, you have to learn the a spell of the indicated level.

Is there any particular reason you wanted to use a higher level slot for a lower level spell, if I may ask?
Tungar
03-15-06, 03:20 AM Yes.
There are a lot of very interesting second level bard spells :
- Glitterdust
- Mirror image (or Alter self)
- Harmony
- Harmonic chorus
- Silence

All of these spells don't have equivalent, or not as interesting (harmony, greater is not better than harmony for a higher level, mirror image or alter self are long duration protection spells, that blink or displacement are'nt, and see invisibility is just self when glitterdust is social).
So, I will take Harmony, Greater, snif.
Lomiat
03-15-06, 09:46 AM There's the feat, Extra Spell (I think that's the name), that allows you to learn an extra spell of a level lowest than your current highest-level spell. Thus, when you get 3rd level spells, you could take the feat to learn an extra 2nd level spell.
Tungar
03-15-06, 09:53 AM Yes, but a feat for a spell ...
Extra spell would have been far better if it has gave 2 spells.
Lomiat
03-15-06, 10:24 AM Actually, I would like to know if Extra Spell allows you to learn a spell not normally available to your class. For example, could a Bard able to cast 2nd level spells take Extra Spell to learn Arrow Mind?
Tungar
03-15-06, 11:08 AM I really think that you can't.
It would have been more funny.
Iswald
03-15-06, 11:58 AM Actually, I would like to know if Extra Spell allows you to learn a spell not normally available to your class. For example, could a Bard able to cast 2nd level spells take Extra Spell to learn Arrow Mind?

It has to be a spell on your spell list.
solbergb
03-15-06, 02:36 PM Nope, you have to learn the a spell of the indicated level.

I've seen this asserted before, but I'm not sure where it comes from. The rules don't say, so more accurately the answer is "Some judges won't like it, expect table variation" which isn't a good thing when talking about something as critical as a spont caster's spells known. I'd say the strongest support for the position that you must learn an XXX level spell is the fact that the text references the tables, and it is utterly silent about the idea of taking a lower level one. But as it isn't explicit, we can't be certain about intent.

This entry says nothing about level:
"Adding Spells to a Sorcerer's or Bard's Repertoire: A sorcerer or bard gains spells each time he attains a new level in his class and never gains spells any other way. When your sorcerer or bard gains a new level, consult Table: Bard Spells Known or Table: Sorcerer Spells Known to learn how many spells from the appropriate spell list he now knows. With permission, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they have gained some understanding of."

Bard entry references the table but does not say whether or not you have to take the highest level possible. For swapping spells, they explicitly must be the same level.

"The bard's selection of spells is extremely limited. A bard begins play knowing four 0-level spells of your choice. At most new bard levels, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Bard Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a bard knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Bard Spells Known are fixed.)

Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third bard level after that (8th, 11th, and so on), a bard can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the bard "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level bard spell the bard can cast. A bard may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level."

Sorcerer entry, pretty much the same as bard:

"A sorcerer's selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new sorcerer level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. The sorcerer can't use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the sorcerer "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level sorcerer spell the sorcerer can cast. A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level."
PaulH
03-15-06, 03:12 PM Hi

There is a prestige Class - Recaster, but it's in Eberron.

Changeling only - it allows arcane casters to add a spell (of lower level than they can currently cast) off any spell list to their own! They even get this twice! (Not bad for 5 lvl PrC).

And since the recent level hikes this means you could start new character as 1st lvl Recaster. (Get extra spell to your list at 2nd & 4th lvls).
There are also other benefits, 'sudden' metamagic feats, shaping spell areas, etc. But you do lose a lvl of spellcasting. (Only 4 lvls in 5 lvl PrC).

Cheers
Paul H
(Changeling Warmage going Recaster)
Iswald
03-15-06, 10:29 PM The table in the PHB that lists the spells known limits how many of each level spell they can have. When a sorceror goes from fifth to sixth level, the gain a zero level and a third level spell. If you take a second level spell instead of a third, then it's still a second level spell and more than your character can know.
Tungar
03-16-06, 10:07 AM Even if it is a bit ridiculous, this is the only way to understand the rules.
I was expecting for a special errata, or a faq.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tungar 03-14-06, 03:07 PM	I have a question about spontaneous casters : can spontaneous casters learn (know) lower level spells in their higher level slots ? Thanks.
ShinAkuma2 03-14-06, 04:07 PM	Nope, you have to learn the a spell of the indicated level. Is there any particular reason you wanted to use a higher level slot for a lower level spell, if I may ask?
Tungar 03-15-06, 03:20 AM	Yes. There are a lot of very interesting second level bard spells : - Glitterdust - Mirror image (or Alter self) - Harmony - Harmonic chorus - Silence All of these spells don't have equivalent, or not as interesting (harmony, greater is not better than harmony for a higher level, mirror image or alter self are long duration protection spells, that blink or displacement are'nt, and see invisibility is just self when glitterdust is social). So, I will take Harmony, Greater, snif.
Lomiat 03-15-06, 09:46 AM	There's the feat, Extra Spell (I think that's the name), that allows you to learn an extra spell of a level lowest than your current highest-level spell. Thus, when you get 3rd level spells, you could take the feat to learn an extra 2nd level spell.
Tungar 03-15-06, 09:53 AM	Yes, but a feat for a spell ... Extra spell would have been far better if it has gave 2 spells.
Lomiat 03-15-06, 10:24 AM	Actually, I would like to know if Extra Spell allows you to learn a spell not normally available to your class. For example, could a Bard able to cast 2nd level spells take Extra Spell to learn Arrow Mind?
Tungar 03-15-06, 11:08 AM	I really think that you can't. It would have been more funny.
Iswald 03-15-06, 11:58 AM	Actually, I would like to know if Extra Spell allows you to learn a spell not normally available to your class. For example, could a Bard able to cast 2nd level spells take Extra Spell to learn Arrow Mind? It has to be a spell on your spell list.
solbergb 03-15-06, 02:36 PM	Nope, you have to learn the a spell of the indicated level. I've seen this asserted before, but I'm not sure where it comes from. The rules don't say, so more accurately the answer is "Some judges won't like it, expect table variation" which isn't a good thing when talking about something as critical as a spont caster's spells known. I'd say the strongest support for the position that you must learn an XXX level spell is the fact that the text references the tables, and it is utterly silent about the idea of taking a lower level one. But as it isn't explicit, we can't be certain about intent. This entry says nothing about level: "Adding Spells to a Sorcerer's or Bard's Repertoire: A sorcerer or bard gains spells each time he attains a new level in his class and never gains spells any other way. When your sorcerer or bard gains a new level, consult Table: Bard Spells Known or Table: Sorcerer Spells Known to learn how many spells from the appropriate spell list he now knows. With permission, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they have gained some understanding of." Bard entry references the table but does not say whether or not you have to take the highest level possible. For swapping spells, they explicitly must be the same level. "The bard's selection of spells is extremely limited. A bard begins play knowing four 0-level spells of your choice. At most new bard levels, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Bard Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a bard knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Bard Spells Known are fixed.) Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third bard level after that (8th, 11th, and so on), a bard can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the bard "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level bard spell the bard can cast. A bard may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level." Sorcerer entry, pretty much the same as bard: "A sorcerer's selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new sorcerer level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. The sorcerer can't use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however. Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the sorcerer "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level sorcerer spell the sorcerer can cast. A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level."
PaulH 03-15-06, 03:12 PM	Hi There is a prestige Class - Recaster, but it's in Eberron. Changeling only - it allows arcane casters to add a spell (of lower level than they can currently cast) off any spell list to their own! They even get this twice! (Not bad for 5 lvl PrC). And since the recent level hikes this means you could start new character as 1st lvl Recaster. (Get extra spell to your list at 2nd & 4th lvls). There are also other benefits, 'sudden' metamagic feats, shaping spell areas, etc. But you do lose a lvl of spellcasting. (Only 4 lvls in 5 lvl PrC). Cheers Paul H (Changeling Warmage going Recaster)
Iswald 03-15-06, 10:29 PM	The table in the PHB that lists the spells known limits how many of each level spell they can have. When a sorceror goes from fifth to sixth level, the gain a zero level and a third level spell. If you take a second level spell instead of a third, then it's still a second level spell and more than your character can know.
Tungar 03-16-06, 10:07 AM	Even if it is a bit ridiculous, this is the only way to understand the rules. I was expecting for a special errata, or a faq.