Post/Author/DateTime	Post
haferka 01-30-07, 10:16 PM	Benefits from Nonadventuring Activity Heroes are skilled people. Some have the ability to expand their personal wealth without adventuring. The creation of magical and mundane items needed or desired by the commoners and nobility of the Flanaess is not as potentially lucrative as adventuring, but is definitely safer. While your character is primarily an adventurer in the LIVING GREYHAWK campaign, it does have the opportunity to make some extra coin every now and then using Professional and Craft skills. Due to the worldwide nature of the LIVING GREYHAWK campaign, the following rules override most of the rules presented in the Player’s Handbook v.3.5 regarding the creation of items or generation of gold pieces for work while using the following skills: Craft, Perform, Sleight of Hand, Profession. Fundamentally, each of these skills gives you the opportunity to increase your character’s wealth by virtue of skill, knowledge, or craft after the play of a regional LIVING GREYHAWK adventure that is set in your current home region. Just how this is done is dependent on the individual skill. Immediately after each regional LIVING GREYHAWK adventure, a character may attempt to create extra gold via one of the following activities. Using these skills or professions during an adventure is allowed but does not increase the maximum gold earned cap for the APL played at. You do not have to pay lifestyle costs for TU’s spent on using a skill to make additional gold. You may neither take 10 nor take 20 on any of the following skill checks. Use the following chart to determine the gp earned based on the DC of the skill used for Non-adventuring activity. Any skill modifiers that last 8 hours every day can be used in this check. This includes masterwork tools, regional circumstance bonuses, and spells. You can choose to assist the skill check(s) of a single player at your table, who gains the standard bonuses for assisted skill checks. When assisting another player you must spend the same number of TUs as that person. Rewards are shared equally between the players, unless the specific activity disallows you from sharing those rewards. Skill DC vs gp Reward ================ DC 15 = 1d20 gp DC 20 = 1d20+25 gp DC 25 = 1d20+50 gp DC 30 = 1d20+75 gp DC 35 = 1d20+100 gp DC 40 = 1d20+125 gp DC 45 = 1d20+150 gp DC 50 = 1d20+175 gp *Illicit Activities: As with all illicit activity risk comes with the reward of quick wealth. Whether you succeed or fail on your initial skill check, you must make a separate skill check to avoid jail time. The skill will be listed with the activity description below. A failed check to avoid the law results in additional TU loss, due to jail time, and 0gp reward for the activity. A successful skill check to avoid the law will result in double the standard gold for the activity. Use the following chart to determine the extra TUs lost due to jail time. Skill DC vs TU Cost ============== DC 15 = +1 TU DC 20 = +1 TU DC 25 = +2 TU DC 30 = +2 TU DC 35 = +3 TU DC 40 = +3 TU DC 45 = +4 TU DC 50 = +4 TU Activities Artisian/Shopkeeper: You can practice your trade and make a decent living. You must own a set of artisan’s tools in order to practice a craft skill or have a place of business to practice a profession skill. This activity requires a successful craft or profession check. Craft Illicit Goods*: You can create contraband and sell it on the black market. This requires a Craft check, and a Sense Motive to avoid the law. Craft Item: You can practice your trade to create an item for youself. You must document the item that you are making on the AR. You must have access to purchase that item. Gold earned is recorded on the AR, but can NOT be used for any purpose other than purchasing that item. If you succeed on the craft check, you can choose to roll a second craft check (same DC), to determine if additional TUs can be spent to create the item. All further Craft checks will be at -5 (this penalty increases every time you successfully spend an additional TU working on the item). This activity does NOT allow players to split the reward. Assiting players recieve 0 gp. Craft Repair: You can repair broken mundane items. This process functions exactly like Craft Item above, but you only need to earn half the items normal gp cost. Magic Items can NOT be repaired in this way, See section X for repairing magic Items. This activity does NOT allow players to split the reward. Assiting players recieve 0 gp. Code breaking: You are the guy that can figure stuff out. People pay you to put the facts together or find hidden meanings within those facts. This activity requires a successful decipher script check, which you receive a +1 bonus to the roll for every language that you know. Entertain: You find the best place to practice your art for both coin and admiration (usually the most prosperous or cultured settlement in your region). This activity requires a successful perform or tumble check Mugging*: You corner wayward travelers in dark allies demanding money. This activity requires a successful Intimidate check, and a Disguise check to avoid the law. Pick Pocket*: Taking wealth from those you meet: that’s how you make your money. Every good pickpocket knows that the best scores come consistently to those who watch, wait, and then strike when the time is right. This activity requires a successful sleight of hand check, and a hide check to avoid the law.
LGMoses 01-30-07, 10:21 PM	wats rong with the current system?
haferka 01-30-07, 10:38 PM	currently the risk vs reward is not equal for all skills... at some DCs, you get more gp for perform, than slight of hand... in both cases, you get more gp for the same TU than you do with profession or craft...
Britt 01-30-07, 10:41 PM	We're discussing some form of standardization, though I can pretty much guarantee it won't involve 25d6 :p
haferka 01-30-07, 11:09 PM	We're discussing some form of standardization, though I can pretty much guarantee it won't involve 25d6 :p cool. for your consideration: 25d6 = 25-150 (+50% = 38-225) vs 6d20+120 = 126-240 my system actualy give out LESS gp at higher DCs.. but slightly more at lower DCs. or course.. unless you cap the DC with a MAX.. the players could just keep raising their target DC as they level.
Britt 01-30-07, 11:19 PM	I meant no 25d6 because there PCs shouldn't be having to roll that many dice to use the system :) My goal is to not have more than 2 or 3 dice rolled.
ShinAkuma2 01-30-07, 11:21 PM	at some DCs, you get more gp for perform, than slight of hand... in both cases, you get more gp for the same TU than you do with profession or craft... I see no problem with this. If it wasn't true that stealing or performing for money wasn't more lucrative than a normal job, no one would do them. On the other hand, they have risks associated with them. With a profession or craft, you always make something. The fact that you can eventually be good enough to never fail to make money just shows that PCs are much better than your average joe at performing/stealing. The fact that sometimes a perform check is worth more than an equal DC sleight check is a non-issue. Performers do make a lot of money when they're that good.
haferka 01-30-07, 11:47 PM	I meant no 25d6 because there PCs shouldn't be having to roll that many dice to use the system :) My goal is to not have more than 2 or 3 dice rolled. ok.. I will adjust my formual... Skill DC/2 = Xd3 (x10 gp) (+50% illicit activity) DC 10 = 1d3 x10gp DC 20 = 2d3 x10gp DC 30 = 3d3 x10gp DC 40 = 4d3 x10gp DC 50 = 5d3 x10gp I would recomend using d3 (since its still a d6 which is the MOST common die at the table.. so there are always plenty of them.)
Arvagor 01-30-07, 11:49 PM	The fact that sometimes a perform check is worth more than an equal DC sleight check is a non-issue. Performers do make a lot of money when they're that good. Sometimes? ;) Perform is always the way to go, IMO. The best that Sleight of Hand will get you is 240 gp, at a DC 50 check; you fail it, then you have to make the DC 25 Bluff check or get penalized for 7 TUs. OTOH, a "simple" DC 30 Perform/Tumble, can easily net you 420 gp (because when you make the first DC 30, you then get another). I'm considering having my Tumble-monkey rogue start doing his Tumble checks after every mod, since I don't play him that often now... I know 420 may not seem like much (and yes, I realize that's the max), but I've seen people fail to pay for raise dead by that margin...
haferka 01-30-07, 11:52 PM	Self edited.
Britt 01-31-07, 12:03 AM	I don't like the scaling and think that 1d3pp is too much for a DC 10 check. See if you can come up with something that is a minimum of DC 15, starts lower than 1d3pp, uses a standard die type (d4, d6, etc), and doesn't have more than 2 or 3 dice rolled. I know that's a lot, but that's the type of system I'm looking for :)
Mommy was an Orc 01-31-07, 12:52 AM	I don't like the scaling and think that 1d3pp is too much for a DC 10 check. See if you can come up with something that is a minimum of DC 15, starts lower than 1d3pp, uses a standard die type (d4, d6, etc), and doesn't have more than 2 or 3 dice rolled. I know that's a lot, but that's the type of system I'm looking for :) How about this: Roll 3d6 - you then get the following number of coins of the given type. DC 10 = Coppers DC 15 = Silvers DC 20 = Gold DC 25 = 3 Gold DC 30 = Platinum DC 35 = Platinum + Free Standard Lifestyle for next TU DC 40 = Platinum + Free Rich Lifestyle for next TU DC 45 = Platinum + Free Luxury Lifestyle for next TU DC 50 = Platinum + Free Luxury Lifestyle for next mod The higher DCs representing that you've so impressed some patrons that they're willing to write you letters of recommendation, put you up for the night, etc...yet without giving the PC potentially game breaking cash.
Britt 01-31-07, 01:00 AM	That works for some of the skills, but not for others. How do you get free upkeep by sleight of hand?
haferka 01-31-07, 01:43 AM	I don't like the scaling and think that 1d3pp is too much for a DC 10 check. See if you can come up with something that is a minimum of DC 15, starts lower than 1d3pp, uses a standard die type (d4, d6, etc), and doesn't have more than 2 or 3 dice rolled. I know that's a lot, but that's the type of system I'm looking for :) Ive been trying to hammer that out in my head.. and there just doesnt seem to be a GREAT way to do it.. I REALLY think the 25d6 is the way to go... there Is ALWAYS somebody with tons of d6.. (fireball dice, especially at the lvl when you can make that DC) I'll keep working on it tho.. maybee ill come up with something in the morning.
Britt 01-31-07, 02:09 AM	I have someone else that said they'd be working on it as well, so don't hurt your brain on it :)
haferka 01-31-07, 02:19 AM	How about this: Roll 3d6 - you then get the following number of coins of the given type. DC 10 = Coppers DC 15 = Silvers DC 20 = Gold DC 25 = 3 Gold DC 30 = Platinum DC 35 = Platinum + Free Standard Lifestyle for next TU DC 40 = Platinum + Free Rich Lifestyle for next TU DC 45 = Platinum + Free Luxury Lifestyle for next TU DC 50 = Platinum + Free Luxury Lifestyle for next mod The higher DCs representing that you've so impressed some patrons that they're willing to write you letters of recommendation, put you up for the night, etc...yet without giving the PC potentially game breaking cash. I like where you are going.. how about... DC 15 = 1d20 gp DC 20 = 1d4 pp DC 25 = 1d6 pp DC 30 = 1d8 pp DC 35 = 1d10 pp DC 40 = 2d6 pp DC 45 = 2d8 pp DC 50 = 2d10 pp (+50% illicit activity) This should work.. I don't want to be force to spend my hard earned $ on Upkeep.. Some characters ONLY live of the wild... (and alot of stuff already give upkeep... giving it for non-adventuring activity would make people NOT want to waist their TUs..., compared to Adventuring.. its almost not worth it now...)
Mommy was an Orc 01-31-07, 08:26 AM	That works for some of the skills, but not for others. How do you get free upkeep by sleight of hand? Sleight of Hand = DC 10 = Coppers DC 15 = Silvers DC 20 = Gold DC 25 = 3 Gold DC 30 = Platinum DC 35 = Platinum + Gold(11 gold) DC 40 = Platinum + 3 Gold(13 gold) DC 45 = Platinum + 6 Gold(16 gold) DC 50 = 2 Platinum
haferka 01-31-07, 09:40 AM	Sleight of Hand = DC 10 = Coppers DC 15 = Silvers DC 20 = Gold DC 25 = 3 Gold DC 30 = Platinum DC 35 = Platinum + Gold(11 gold) DC 40 = Platinum + 3 Gold(13 gold) DC 45 = Platinum + 6 Gold(16 gold) DC 50 = 2 Platinum You need to compare your reward against the Existing reward in the LGCS... Start by figuring out the Max gp for existing skill DCs. Perform/tumble: DC 10 = 6 gp DC 15 = 9 gp DC 20 = 21 gp DC 25 = 60 gp DC 30 = 210 gp slight of hand: DC 10 = 0 gp DC 15 = 6 gp DC 20 = 35 gp DC 25 = 80 gp DC 30 = 100 gp DC 35 = 170 gp DC 40 = 200 gp DC 50 = 240 gp First.. I see a problem with DC 15 & DC 30 .. where perform give more gp than slight of hand.. slight of hand SHOULD grant more reward, becouse of the possibility of Jail time. So, I will focus on slight of hand. working backwards.. I see that there is aproximatly a 50% increase from Perform to Slight of Hand (ok.. thats easy). Lets Scale back the Slight of Hand rewards by 50% (smaller # are easier to deal with.. and adding 50 back is simple to do later). DC gp opt#1 == == ====== 15 = 4 = 1d4 20 = 23 = 2d12 25 = 53 = 2d20+13 30 = 67 = 2d20+27 35 = 113 = 2d20+73 40 = 133 = 2d20+93 50 = 160 = 2d20+140 that works.. but its not pretty. lets apply some more math.. plot the lines.. even out these scores.. maybe come up with a formula to comput reward vs DC. which is how I got my method: Skill DC/2 = Xd6 gp (+50% illicit activity) DC gp ==== === 10 = 5d6 15 = 7d6 20 = 10d6 25 = 12d6 30 = 15d6 35 = 17d6 40 = 20d6 45 = 22d6 50 = 25d6 Problems: 2 much $ at low DC.. 2 many dice... ok ======================================= What do you think of this .... gp = 1d20+25*(DC-15)/5 gp (+50% illicit activity) DC gp == ======= 15 = 1d20 20 = 1d20+25 25 = 1d20+50 30 = 1d20+75 35 = 1d20+100 40 = 1d20+125 45 = 1d20+150 50 = 1d20+175 55 = 1d20+200 60 = 1d20+225 65 = 1d20+250 ...
Bob_the_Theurge 01-31-07, 10:48 AM	wats rong with the current system? You mean besides the fact that it's unbalanced and not worth doing?
haferka 01-31-07, 01:01 PM	Updated original Post.. See top of thread.
Mommy was an Orc 01-31-07, 01:22 PM	You need to compare your reward against the Existing reward in the LGCS... I'd structure the extra reward against the potential TU penalty, not against the reward itself. I'd use the base reward as is. Multiply TU penalty * DC target in extra gold. You have a 3 TU penalty and pick DC 30 as your target, that's 90 extra gold. Max TU penalty = DC/10, round down. So, for DC 25, you could choose a 2 TU penalty. The advantage of this system is that it is relatively straightforward and easy to calculate.
GorTeX 01-31-07, 02:16 PM	Would you have to make 2 skill rolls, or could you just do 1? Say for crafting..just making a craft roll withotu specifying a specific item (ie.just for money). Do you have to set the DC before rolling your skill or after you roll and see how high you got? Seems skills like Slight of Hand you'd have to set the DC 1st, but for crafting it makes sense to allow the DC to be chosen after the skill roll. For the Crafting 'bonus'--make sure that it is stipulated that you must buy the item that AR--no building up money over several mods (yea, that'd be more realistic, but entails alot more book-keeping) Can you take 10 on skills that normally you can take 10 on (like most crafting skills)? It looks like a realtively simple and elegant system...I like it.
cycloptic_squirrel 01-31-07, 03:12 PM	OK, let me throw something out there. It's a bit more complex than I wanted, and doesn't quite get the distribution I wanted, but it's close. The same method is used for all approved skills, like craft or slight of hand. (Maybe unapproved skills such as climb or knowledge can be used with a -10 modifier or something.) Pick a target DC and its associated income roll. Make your skill check against chosen DC. You earn an income roll for making the DC and every 5 you beat it by. You pay an income roll for every 5 you fail by. DC 10 - 1 gp DC 15 - d4 gp DC 20 - d10 gp DC 25 - d20 gp DC 30 - d4 pp DC 35 - d10 pp DC 40 - d20 pp DC 45 - 2d20 pp DC 50 - d100 pp For example, I choose to roll profession: innkeeper and choose DC 30. I roll a check of 37, so my income would be 2d4 pp. Had my check been 24, I would pay d4 pp. The income would become more stable if you chose a low DC, but the potential payoff is bigger with higher DCs. Things become more interesting if we add a risk die. This would represent something very illegal and/or dangerous, such as a big heist or using an unproven mining method. Extra TUs represent TUs spend in jail, healing, etc. After rolling your check as above, roll a d6: 1 - Pay TUs equal to 1/5 the DC selected 2 - Pay 1 TU 3 - pay an income roll 4 - receive an income roll 5 - receive two income rolls 6 - roll risk again twice (further sixes count as nothing happens) I'm greatly amused by this and think it adds a dynamic element. Unfortunately, I think it's still two steps too complex. That and it's too easily abused by those who can (and would) get +40 perform (for an average of 1500 gp extra per mod, even without the risk d6). So even though it won't work, I was intrigued and thought I'd share.
Britt 01-31-07, 03:21 PM	I'll let you all know that this is straying into the far too complicated area, IMO. I have something that I think works, but you are welcome to keep chatting. I might see something that I like better :)
haferka 01-31-07, 04:20 PM	Would you have to make 2 skill rolls, or could you just do 1? Say for crafting..just making a craft roll withotu specifying a specific item (ie.just for money). Do you have to set the DC before rolling your skill or after you roll and see how high you got? Seems skills like Slight of Hand you'd have to set the DC 1st, but for crafting it makes sense to allow the DC to be chosen after the skill roll. For the Crafting 'bonus'--make sure that it is stipulated that you must buy the item that AR--no building up money over several mods (yea, that'd be more realistic, but entails alot more book-keeping) Can you take 10 on skills that normally you can take 10 on (like most crafting skills)? It looks like a realtively simple and elegant system...I like it. 1 Roll for simple Craft/profession/perform/etc... Just to make some quick cash.. 1 TU cost. 2 rolls if you want more cash using illegal activities (such as slight of hand).. but you risk jail time with the second roll. (the 2 skills are typicaly different skills) 2 rolls for crafting personal items (first roll to determine progress, the second to determine if you can roll again.. costing an additional TU) It is bookkeeping to keep track of gp earned for the purchase of a specific item... but LG is doing that know.. (look at the dieties document... 2 dieties require you to do this just to keep your cash down below a certain ammount). I would not allow take 10 or take 20...
Mommy was an Orc 01-31-07, 04:39 PM	I'll let you all know that this is straying into the far too complicated area, IMO. I have something that I think works, but you are welcome to keep chatting. I might see something that I like better :) Mine shouldn't be all that complicated - there's a formula, but the results can be printed out and it stays pretty consistent. Sleight of Hand with a DC 30 and a TU risk of 3 means you get 3d6 Platinum and 90 gold for your troubles if you roll a DC 30 check. If you risk 1 TU, you get 3d6 Platinum and 30 gold. DC 50 and TU risk of 5 means you get 3d6(*2) Platinum +250 gold.
haferka 01-31-07, 05:55 PM	Updated original post.. see top of thread.
haferka 01-31-07, 05:55 PM	how is that for simple.. elegant.. and expandable... You can EASILY create new skill uses.. and throw them into the list... I removed almost half of the LGCS text.. since it was a series of DC lists for seperate skills. I added several new skill activities... and It still saved quite a bit of space. Some of the repetative text was moved up to the bottom of the main text.. like the default statment that you can spend 1 TU after a regional mod, or the no taking 10 or 20 for skill checks... This system opens up new uses for the "businesses" that several regional metaorgs allow you to purchase... Those business could grant additional choices for non-adventuring activity. Of course that is something to be worked out by those regions. I am curious what people think of my example activities.. and are there any that they could think off.. - What is the activity, what is the primary skill (if its illegal, what skill would help you avoid the law?)
cycloptic_squirrel 01-31-07, 07:14 PM	I'll let you all know that this is straying into the far too complicated area, IMO. Oh, I know it. But give a mouse a cookie and all that. Haferka, your system seems pretty simple (as in elegant). What if I modified it just a bit: Pick a DC and roll your check. If you make the DC, you get your in gp added to the DC modifier; if you fail, you get nothing. DC 10 = skill check - 10 gp DC 15 = skill check + 0 gp DC 20 = skill check + 10 gp DC 25 = skill check + 25 gp DC 30 = skill check + 45 gp DC 35 = skill check + 70 gp DC 40 = skill check + 100 gp DC 45 = skill check + 135 gp DC 50 = skill check + 175 gp There's not much spread to the results, but it has the flexibility to be easily tweaked. We could put in any numbers we wanted, although I agree it'd be better to have some complex mathematical formula to justify it, just so us obsessive types don't go crazy. I like the choice element as well as the fact that you might not get anything. I'm not sure where a possible TU loss could fit in though. To be honest, I'm not sure we need it. As for the combination attempts, I like them, but it seems more a flavor issue than a rules issue. This seems more like something I'd expect to see in a metaorg document.
haferka 01-31-07, 08:57 PM	Oh, I know it. But give a mouse a cookie and all that. Haferka, your system seems pretty simple (as in elegant). What if I modified it just a bit: Pick a DC and roll your check. If you make the DC, you get your in gp added to the DC modifier; if you fail, you get nothing. DC 10 = skill check - 10 gp DC 15 = skill check + 0 gp DC 20 = skill check + 10 gp DC 25 = skill check + 25 gp DC 30 = skill check + 45 gp DC 35 = skill check + 70 gp DC 40 = skill check + 100 gp DC 45 = skill check + 135 gp DC 50 = skill check + 175 gp There's not much spread to the results, but it has the flexibility to be easily tweaked. We could put in any numbers we wanted, although I agree it'd be better to have some complex mathematical formula to justify it, just so us obsessive types don't go crazy. I like the choice element as well as the fact that you might not get anything. I'm not sure where a possible TU loss could fit in though. To be honest, I'm not sure we need it. As for the combination attempts, I like them, but it seems more a flavor issue than a rules issue. This seems more like something I'd expect to see in a metaorg document. I guess I need to add a collum on the DC chart for potential TU loss. and leave it based on the initial DC chosen. (+1 TU per 10 DC, starting at DC 15) I considered making the d20 skill check = to the gp gained.. as you suggest.. but explaining that in text was a waste of space.. its easier to just say 1d20 gp Actually the Complete adventurer already has rules for assiting skill checks (above and beyond what is discussed in the PH).. those options.. ARE available to LG players, provided that they bring the source with them to the game. Here is what I had in mind for "assisted" non-adventuring activity: "You can choose to assist the skill check(s) of a single player at your table, who gains the standard bonuses for assisted skill checks. When assisting another player you must spend the same number of TUs as that person. Rewards are shared equally between the players, unless the specific activity disallows you from sharing those rewards." Craft Item & Repair Item activities would NOT allow the rewards to be shared. Those rewards would go the the primary character ONLY. In most cases.. its worth more gp to NOT work together.. but when you want to help a fellow player who NEEDs a specific item.. or NEEDs to repair a sundered item... It helps alot.
haferka 02-01-07, 02:18 PM	Talking to players here in College Station... (LG capitol of the world) The bigest complaint about my suggestion.. is that it doesnt give any incentive for higher lvl players to do "non-adventuring activity"... With that in mind... (if we scale gp reward higher.. ) Skill DC vs gp Reward ================ DC 15 = 1d20+5 gp DC 20 = 1d20+10 gp DC 25 = 1d20+20 gp DC 30 = 1d20+40 gp DC 35 = 1d20+80 gp DC 40 = 1d20+160 gp DC 45 = 1d20+320 gp DC 50 = 1d20+640 gp A DC 50 check should be difficult for the average player... at ~14 lvl. Average Skill check = 40 = +17 (ranks) +3(stat) +3(magic) +2(synergy) +3(miscelaneous) + 12(avg d20 roll) A character optimized for the skill checks CAN get another +10 which would let them make them DC 50 half the time. A couple successfull DC 50 checks and you have enophe gold for a cheap magic item. Which makes the system usefull for those higher level players... Britt, if you think that is to much cash for non-adventuring activity.. I suggest "limiting" the DC that players can choose. Then hand out "access" to higher DC activities on ARs (meta orgs.. adventures... etc...)
Britt 02-01-07, 04:28 PM	We can't do that as it throws the gp:xp curves way out of whack. We have to keep it relatively low to avoid problems with high level PCs having way more money than they are supposed to.
haferka 02-01-07, 05:46 PM	understood.. I just wanted to suggest it... (there is a reason that I did not update the full text version .. I expected that answer ) Here is a graph of the gp earned by APL for adventuring.. along with the gp earned for non-adventuring... and the higher gp earned for non-adventuring... http://people.tamu.edu/~haferka/chart.htm Even with the increased gp.. the amount of gp you earn is VERY small, compared to the gp earned adventuring. What "throws the sytem out of whack" is that the player can choose to spend MANY more TUs on non-adventuring activity than adventuring... :cool: Which can be solved quite easily.. by placing a max # of TUs spent non-adventuring = # TUs spent adventuring... (jail time can push you over the limit).. which would prevent you from using non-adventuring activity untill you "catch up" on your adventuring TUs. Thanks again for all your good work. I am eager to hear suggestions.. (from anyone)...
Britt 02-01-07, 05:52 PM	If you assume an average of 100 ARs before retirement (rough number for ease of math, pretty close to average), and an average of about 100 gp for non-adventuring activity after every AR played, that's an extra 10,000 gp for that player before they retire. That is a very significant number. Using that example, you can probably see why the numbers have to be kept fairly low and just how low.
Japangirl 02-01-07, 06:01 PM	If you assume an average of 100 ARs before retirement (rough number for ease of math, pretty close to average), and an average of about 100 gp for non-adventuring activity after every AR played, that's an extra 10,000 gp for that player before they retire. That is a very significant number. Using that example, you can probably see why the numbers have to be kept fairly low and just how low. Wow. That's almost halfway to a Ring of Blinking! (Which I terribly much need access to, pretty pretty please?)
RedKnightofKet 02-01-07, 06:37 PM	Talking to players here in College Station... (LG capitol of the world) The bigest complaint about my suggestion.. is that it doesnt give any incentive for higher lvl players to do "non-adventuring activity"... Should there be an incentive for high level characters to do non-adventuring activity? A high level character shouldn't really see much benefit from crafting, working a profession, even performing, or what have you. (Although a Rock Star persona would be really cool, I don't think it makes much sense in LG) The only one I could see a high reward making sense is Sleight of Hand - and even then, the punishment doesn't fit the crime. If you're going for a big score, failure would probably mean death, because you had to target somebody rich and powerful. I know this is a moot point, I figured I would throw my two cp out there...
haferka 02-01-07, 06:57 PM	Actually... Here are some better graphs... A graph of the relative gp gained by APL.. (adventuring & non-adventuring... high & low options...) http://people.tamu.edu/~haferka/chart1.gif Here is a similar graph (but looking at the TOTAL wealth by Level) http://people.tamu.edu/~haferka/chart2.gif Here are 2 pie charts showing the total % of wealth (split between Adventuring & non-adventuring). http://people.tamu.edu/~haferka/chart3.gif http://people.tamu.edu/~haferka/chart4.gif Pictures help to put things into perspective... ~5% boost to gold.. not such a big impact...
Mommy was an Orc 02-01-07, 07:33 PM	If you assume an average of 100 ARs before retirement (rough number for ease of math, pretty close to average), and an average of about 100 gp for non-adventuring activity after every AR played, that's an extra 10,000 gp for that player before they retire. That is a very significant number. Using that example, you can probably see why the numbers have to be kept fairly low and just how low. That's not quite right though - you can only do that after a regional/metaregional. That chops that into half. And 5K isn't that large of a number - you're spend 50 TUs for 5K when a crafter can spend 2 TUs for 5K...
Britt 02-01-07, 08:47 PM	Crafting is a whole other problem.... :/ <grumble>
haferka 02-01-07, 09:53 PM	Crafting is a whole other problem.... :/ <grumble> Explain? Get a mug of ale.. and tell me your troubles.
Britt 02-01-07, 09:56 PM	Crafting really messes up the xp:gp curves in a living campaign.
cycloptic_squirrel 02-01-07, 10:33 PM	Crafting really messes up the xp:gp curves in a living campaign. Watch out! He's got a nerf bat! :gah: Not to open a can o' worms, but wouldn't XP penalties and people who like to hug vampires fit into the catagory of 'really screwing the curves'?
haferka 02-01-07, 11:03 PM	I modified one of my graphs... just to see the MAX brokeness... if a player were to make DC 50 EVERY mod.. (illicit activity for double)... Here is the chart: Black line is the TOTAL average gp earned from adventuring ONLY. Orange line is the average gp earned from non-adventureing ONLY. Blue line is the TOTAL GP you can potential earn (adventuring & non combined) http://people.tamu.edu/~haferka/chart5.gif The difference from Normal adventuring gold.. MAXIMUM you can earn from non-adventuring (every mod).. is ~50,000 gp (a +5 weapon)
Morgen 02-02-07, 12:23 AM	For the number of people who do it (Don't complain if you do, I don't care) I'd suggest just getting rid of it entirely and put some places in core mods that would allow people some time to earn money in the mod itself with crafting or professions or what-have you. We need more gold access in mods that can be written in on the AR if the party actually does something to earn it. That'd be nice. You get your standard amount but then the PCs could like, burn a TU and spend a week working as guards for the caravan they just saved and get paid like 50-100 gold or something. Maybe toss in one more encounter for it.
haferka 02-02-07, 08:30 PM	Crafting really messes up the xp:gp curves in a living campaign. Perhaps if you took the MoH aproach to crafting.. (feats grant a simple discount on purchasing the item).. then track the gp spent on those items. Adding a limit to the TOTAL gp you can earn from crafting (based on level)... This would allow the crafters gp / xp to more closely resemble the standard curve.. and prevent someone from crafting .. simply to drain xp.. delaying retirement (which throws off the curve more.. and more).