Suggestions for a support character build [Archive] - Wizards Community

Suggestions for a support character build [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Scheuerman
07-28-06, 06:30 PM Hello,

I would like to ask for suggestions in creating a build for a support character, I noted that Bards and Marshels are very good supporting classes. So I was considering mixing them, the race I would expect to be human for the feats.

Any suggestions?

Thanks!
Japangirl
07-28-06, 06:42 PM Bard/marshall is a really good support build. Diplomacy, high charisma, helping with the auras . . . and you can have a marshall cohort for even more fun! One really fun table I played with had a bard/marshall/paladin/spymaster with his bard/marshall companion. We had all sorts of really really stupid things going for us: +8 to initiative, +7 damage in a flank (I have a rogue), and +8 to something else as well, generally charisma.
Silverlute
08-03-06, 11:05 PM Actually, two marshalls are gonna want differents auras up - not both boosting initiative. Marshall says the aura is a circumstance bonus - since the sircumstance is being inspired by the marshall, two of them don't stack, they overlap (same circumstance). But yes, two marshalls do make a ridiculously silly pair of stat-boosters, they just need to boost different things.
paigeoliver
08-07-06, 04:38 PM There are lots of bards out there as support already. Do a marshall.

You are going to want to avoid having the same auras as other marshalls at the table. About 70 percent of the marshalls I have seen have the dex/initiative aura. Either skip it, or have another character of the same level to switch to. Take the wisdom aura instead (spot/listen). Few marshalls have that one, it provides the same sort of "first strike" benefit of the initiative aura and you don't have to worry about overlapping with other people.

Examine the outcast champion class from races of the wild. It is the best Marshall prestige class I have seen (half orcs and half-elfs only). I have an 18 CHA (reincarnated) half-orc just about to take her first level in that class.

The marshall class has a really natural crappy spot in the medium levels where it gains NOTHING for a few levels (9, 10 and 11 the marshall has the SAME class abilities), so decide early if you are in the class for the long haul.
Lomiat
08-07-06, 06:25 PM Ah... Since we're on the Bard / Marshall kick, here, it's worth pointing out that one of the better support characters you can create is the Bard / Marshall / Warchanter. The warchanter's inspirational abilities are a step up from the bard's, and since you're thinking about "support" characters, you don't sound like you're concerned about losing out on spell progression from the primary spellcaster role.
hoosierhayeslpe
08-14-06, 10:11 AM I would strongly recommend the Marashal. I have an LG character, Fausto!, that I call a "Charisma tank". He is a Marshal 3 / Rogue 1 / Ranger 1 / Sorcerer 1, with an 18 Charisma currently. With only three levels, this is what he brings to the party:

+ 4 initiative and dex skill checks
+4 caster level checks
+1 all saves

Plus, he is the party voice, with +19 diplomacy, +14 bluff, and +12 intimidate. The high bluff works with the sorcerer and rogue levels plus his first two feats (combat expertise and feint). Fausto! is well known in Bissel for the following move:

1- Swift action- cast blades of fire on his +1 glaive
2- Five foot step towards foe
3- Feint with huge bluff check
4- Foe denied dex bonus to AC and open to sneak attack damage
5- Make attack roll for potential 1d10 + 1d8 + 1d6 + 5 damage...
6- Miss the attack roll and be mocked by the party (again)
wooti
08-29-06, 09:00 AM Another nice aura for the Marshel is the one that adds to trips and disarms. And you can always have a dex fighter campanoin to do the triping and disarming.
Reylance
08-29-06, 02:17 PM Absolutely no one will complain if your 8th level bard opens each combat with Inspirational Boost - Harmonize - Inspire Courage.

One support build I've toyed with is a half-elf Pal2/Marshal4/Outcast Champion5.
Haro
08-30-06, 01:11 AM Another nice aura for the Marshel is the one that adds to trips and disarms. And you can always have a dex fighter campanoin to do the triping and disarming.

I have a Marshal 2 that uses a guisarme with the trip aura up. I plan to mix Bard in until Warchanter when I'll have a initiative boosting, inspirationally singing trip monkey that sacrifices his AC to be able to full power attack at my normal to hit modifier.

I will have to drop the initiative aura to bring up the trip aura but since I spend a round to inspire before melee that won't be an issue.

It's a build I can't wait to play through, should be a pretty good support character methinks?
paigeoliver
08-30-06, 01:36 AM I have been running a dex/trip marshall for 6 levels now. It is great fun, just make sure you can trip on your own though, because I NEVER seem to get paired with other tripmasters.
zoinks69
08-30-06, 01:28 PM Depends on your definition of "support".

Others have already given their suggestions and I agree that bard/marshal is a nice mix. For auras, I'd still take the Motivate Dex (even if all the other Marshals seem to take it): 1. You might have a better bonus 2. You can change that aura after initiative is rolled (maybe have a good dex and improved init/blooded so you can go first and change it to the bonus to charges or flanks or whatever before the rest of the party acts).
Paul H
08-30-06, 05:15 PM Hi

Definitely depends on definition of "support".
Marshall/Bards are good at what they do - but Bards have a poor spell progression rate as it is.

Just to be different..... (aka from another angle)...

Clerics have some excellent support spells, even some Domains have good support abilities/spells. (eg. Celerity/Travel). Domain Spontaneity allows Fly etc more time per day. Glorious Weapons & Sacred Healing are also useful feats. (All from Complete Divine, Pg's 78-86)

Also there are alternate uses for spells:
Warmage 6 can take Leomunds Tiny Hut at 6th Lvl (Advanced Learning). Instant Total Concealment from the enemy (whilst they can be seen normally) would destroy most foe's attack plans.

Support can mean many different things to many people - depends on how you want to play a character.

Cheers
Paul H
trollbill
08-31-06, 10:38 AM You might also consider a single level of Cleric with a Bard/Marshel build. Take Domains like Community, Nobility or Courage and then add in your already high charisma plus Divine feats and your buffing power really gets sick. Sacred Healing + High Charisma alone can make a true cleric in the party almost unnessasary.
Rerednaw
09-01-06, 01:37 PM Interesting thread. I am also considering a bard or marshal (or mix) support character. I currently have a Wiz3 (max int so he has knowledge: everything) battlefield controller as my main (my sorc was TPK'd *sigh*).

I was going to go bard16, but I'm thinking the synergies of starting with one or two levels of Marshal are worth sacking the 1 or 2 levels of casting. Especially since I am fond of talking my way out of a situation as opposed to the scorched earth approach.

Has anyone tried more than one type? Bardx, Mar1/Bardx or Mar2/Bardx? How did they work out?
JamesMaissen
09-01-06, 11:53 PM Has anyone tried more than one type? Bardx, Mar1/Bardx or Mar2/Bardx? How did they work out?

Most tend to favor the bard9/Mar1/SublimeCord2/PrCX route. Keep in mind though that even though you get access to the wizard/sorc list that you are still a bard in form and have very limited slots to play with. Also the single level of marshal doesn't delay sublime cord casting while still giving you access to inspire greatness (which is great as the name implies).

Plan the character out and you will be able to be everyone at the table's best friend. Don't try to be another class, but rather be the bard and not the backup sorcerer/rogue/ and or healer. Also plan on getting the party to think as a team.. as this always helps. For characters with this mindset I suggest that you bring consumables to the table (or even full out items) for OTHER party members to use. If it catches on you will find a great deal more of party cohesiveness and support shines more brightly when the party is a team.

-James
Japangirl
09-02-06, 12:37 AM My talky bard will be Bard 13/Marshal 1/Mindbender 1, so I can talk to anything that has a language and only lose one caster level. My marshal aura will be Motivate Charisma, so I can max out my diplomacy and bluff skills (level 15 and +56 or so on diplomacy. I'm looking forward to it). Of course, that bard is level 2 right now, so she has a ways to go.
Paul H
09-05-06, 07:32 AM Hi

Looking at the other threads reminded me of the other support class - Druid.

If you define versatility as support, then Druids are very useful.

6th lvl character - Druid/Fighter/Druid.... can:
1) Support Front Line as Light (later Heavy) Cavalry. (Example above has Dire Bat)
2) Act as backup Healer
3) Buff characters
4) Support Arcane Blasters with elemental damage spells.
5) Wild Shape to fly ahead & act as Scout
6) Battlefield control with Entangle, Summon Swarm, etc.

Not sure about Bard/Druids since there's difficult choice between Natural Spellcaster or Spirited Charge at 6th lvl. (And can't use lances)!

Cheers
Paul H
Japangirl
09-05-06, 02:48 PM Druid/bard might make an interesting Mystic Theurge or Arcane Hierophant. Not terribly powerful, maybe, but interesting.
Paul H
09-06-06, 08:02 PM Hi

Not sure about mixing Druid with Bard - too many stat requirements.

Level of Cleric (Boccob) might work - especially with the Magic & Force domains. Magic allows use of sorceror/wizard items, force grants reroll any damage, plus Mage Armour as domain spell.

Level of Cleric of Pelor could grant access to Radiant Servant of Pelor, but can't see anyone doing more than single level dip as a Druid. The Enlarge Person (Strength Domain) could also be used on your animal companion. (Potions hellish expensive)!

Level of Cleric also gives a few extra healing spells, freeing up those Druid slots. (Plus Divine Feats can be used by Druids - they just need level Cleric to grant Turn Undead prereq).

Cheers
Paul H
Biota
09-06-06, 10:13 PM The Enlarge Person (Strength Domain) could also be used on your animal companion.

Enlarge person doesn't work on animals, just humanoids.

Biota
Cynric
09-06-06, 11:36 PM Enlarge person, if cast by a druid, can affect the animal companion. It is under the animal companion side bar in the PHB. Or at least that is how I read it. It is a nice little bonus for anyone playing an Arcane Hierophant.
JosephKell
09-07-06, 01:40 AM I used to play with and run games for a Straight Marshal (he stopped playing after he got to level 4). He was a Mounted Charger with Master of Tactics (first aura) and Over the Top (second aura). This Marshal was Str 16, Cha 16.

Over the Top + Spirited Charge is +3 times Charisma to damage! He was doing +18 to damage on a mounted charge!

At ConQuestSF 2006 there were 2 Bard 4/Marshal 1's. It was crazy. Both also had the +to Charisma Checks. It was nice having a positive Diplomacy Modifier for once (without having to pay for luxury lifestyle I mean... which I do anyway). That Bard was amazing... It gave everyone +5 on Charisma skills and Charisma Checks. Plus the Bard had a Lyre of Restful whatever (from the Libris Mortis that gives turn vulnerability -4 to a minimum of 1 effective HD).

If you only want Inspirational Boost for Inspire Courage +2. Marshal 1/Bard 2 accomplishes this, but you will need the feat Arcane Preparation to take advantage of Pearls of Power 1 to get that inspirational boost spell back at the end of a combat. Straight Marshal after that 2nd Bard level will give you additional Minor Auras (Charisma Aura for social situations and Undead Dungeon Crawls, Master of Tactics for those flank situations...). Grant Move Action is also useful for putting the tanks at Full-Round attack distance (especially verse things with 10 foot reach as they can 5 foot the last square). Also good for giving squishy party members the chance to move away from suddenly appearing hard hitters or mobs ("Everyone! Back out the door! NOW!"). In one module I played in, there were at least 7 Ghoul mobs of 6 Ghouls each (at one point we had 18 ghouls to contend with, we were lucky we had 2 Clerics). But even with 18 Ghouls, if you are able to force them through a 5 foot wide tunnel they are a lot less dangerous (it is easier to make 3 Fort Saves vs Paralysis a round instead of 15 when 5 of them get next to you).

Hm... the Minor Auras for Charisma to specific saves is also worth considering as later auras. If you do run up against something like Ghouls or Ghasts, being able to give +3 or +4 to Fortitude Saves can keep Characters from being Coup d'Graced (it happens when things like 2 round paralysis is involved).
Japangirl
09-07-06, 06:16 PM Mobs are a special template in the DMG 2, so how many ghouls were in each mob only affected the hit dice of the mob and how much damage you had to do to it to make it dissipate.
JosephKell
09-07-06, 06:45 PM Mobs are a special template in the DMG 2, so how many ghouls were in each mob only affected the hit dice of the mob and how much damage you had to do to it to make it dissipate.They weren't "mobs" at our APL they were just groups of ghouls. And yes, we all think the way the Mob or Horde (in another mod there were "Hordes", we all asked "what is the difference?") work is rediculous. At higher APLs (like APL 6) apparently they are 32 HD Undead Mobs. I swear, some things are just stupid. Undead Mobs should have negative turn resistance.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Scheuerman 07-28-06, 06:30 PM	Hello, I would like to ask for suggestions in creating a build for a support character, I noted that Bards and Marshels are very good supporting classes. So I was considering mixing them, the race I would expect to be human for the feats. Any suggestions? Thanks!
Japangirl 07-28-06, 06:42 PM	Bard/marshall is a really good support build. Diplomacy, high charisma, helping with the auras . . . and you can have a marshall cohort for even more fun! One really fun table I played with had a bard/marshall/paladin/spymaster with his bard/marshall companion. We had all sorts of really really stupid things going for us: +8 to initiative, +7 damage in a flank (I have a rogue), and +8 to something else as well, generally charisma.
Silverlute 08-03-06, 11:05 PM	Actually, two marshalls are gonna want differents auras up - not both boosting initiative. Marshall says the aura is a circumstance bonus - since the sircumstance is being inspired by the marshall, two of them don't stack, they overlap (same circumstance). But yes, two marshalls do make a ridiculously silly pair of stat-boosters, they just need to boost different things.
paigeoliver 08-07-06, 04:38 PM	There are lots of bards out there as support already. Do a marshall. You are going to want to avoid having the same auras as other marshalls at the table. About 70 percent of the marshalls I have seen have the dex/initiative aura. Either skip it, or have another character of the same level to switch to. Take the wisdom aura instead (spot/listen). Few marshalls have that one, it provides the same sort of "first strike" benefit of the initiative aura and you don't have to worry about overlapping with other people. Examine the outcast champion class from races of the wild. It is the best Marshall prestige class I have seen (half orcs and half-elfs only). I have an 18 CHA (reincarnated) half-orc just about to take her first level in that class. The marshall class has a really natural crappy spot in the medium levels where it gains NOTHING for a few levels (9, 10 and 11 the marshall has the SAME class abilities), so decide early if you are in the class for the long haul.
Lomiat 08-07-06, 06:25 PM	Ah... Since we're on the Bard / Marshall kick, here, it's worth pointing out that one of the better support characters you can create is the Bard / Marshall / Warchanter. The warchanter's inspirational abilities are a step up from the bard's, and since you're thinking about "support" characters, you don't sound like you're concerned about losing out on spell progression from the primary spellcaster role.
hoosierhayeslpe 08-14-06, 10:11 AM	I would strongly recommend the Marashal. I have an LG character, Fausto!, that I call a "Charisma tank". He is a Marshal 3 / Rogue 1 / Ranger 1 / Sorcerer 1, with an 18 Charisma currently. With only three levels, this is what he brings to the party: + 4 initiative and dex skill checks +4 caster level checks +1 all saves Plus, he is the party voice, with +19 diplomacy, +14 bluff, and +12 intimidate. The high bluff works with the sorcerer and rogue levels plus his first two feats (combat expertise and feint). Fausto! is well known in Bissel for the following move: 1- Swift action- cast blades of fire on his +1 glaive 2- Five foot step towards foe 3- Feint with huge bluff check 4- Foe denied dex bonus to AC and open to sneak attack damage 5- Make attack roll for potential 1d10 + 1d8 + 1d6 + 5 damage... 6- Miss the attack roll and be mocked by the party (again)
wooti 08-29-06, 09:00 AM	Another nice aura for the Marshel is the one that adds to trips and disarms. And you can always have a dex fighter campanoin to do the triping and disarming.
Reylance 08-29-06, 02:17 PM	Absolutely no one will complain if your 8th level bard opens each combat with Inspirational Boost - Harmonize - Inspire Courage. One support build I've toyed with is a half-elf Pal2/Marshal4/Outcast Champion5.
Haro 08-30-06, 01:11 AM	Another nice aura for the Marshel is the one that adds to trips and disarms. And you can always have a dex fighter campanoin to do the triping and disarming. I have a Marshal 2 that uses a guisarme with the trip aura up. I plan to mix Bard in until Warchanter when I'll have a initiative boosting, inspirationally singing trip monkey that sacrifices his AC to be able to full power attack at my normal to hit modifier. I will have to drop the initiative aura to bring up the trip aura but since I spend a round to inspire before melee that won't be an issue. It's a build I can't wait to play through, should be a pretty good support character methinks?
paigeoliver 08-30-06, 01:36 AM	I have been running a dex/trip marshall for 6 levels now. It is great fun, just make sure you can trip on your own though, because I NEVER seem to get paired with other tripmasters.
zoinks69 08-30-06, 01:28 PM	Depends on your definition of "support". Others have already given their suggestions and I agree that bard/marshal is a nice mix. For auras, I'd still take the Motivate Dex (even if all the other Marshals seem to take it): 1. You might have a better bonus 2. You can change that aura after initiative is rolled (maybe have a good dex and improved init/blooded so you can go first and change it to the bonus to charges or flanks or whatever before the rest of the party acts).
Paul H 08-30-06, 05:15 PM	Hi Definitely depends on definition of "support". Marshall/Bards are good at what they do - but Bards have a poor spell progression rate as it is. Just to be different..... (aka from another angle)... Clerics have some excellent support spells, even some Domains have good support abilities/spells. (eg. Celerity/Travel). Domain Spontaneity allows Fly etc more time per day. Glorious Weapons & Sacred Healing are also useful feats. (All from Complete Divine, Pg's 78-86) Also there are alternate uses for spells: Warmage 6 can take Leomunds Tiny Hut at 6th Lvl (Advanced Learning). Instant Total Concealment from the enemy (whilst they can be seen normally) would destroy most foe's attack plans. Support can mean many different things to many people - depends on how you want to play a character. Cheers Paul H
trollbill 08-31-06, 10:38 AM	You might also consider a single level of Cleric with a Bard/Marshel build. Take Domains like Community, Nobility or Courage and then add in your already high charisma plus Divine feats and your buffing power really gets sick. Sacred Healing + High Charisma alone can make a true cleric in the party almost unnessasary.
Rerednaw 09-01-06, 01:37 PM	Interesting thread. I am also considering a bard or marshal (or mix) support character. I currently have a Wiz3 (max int so he has knowledge: everything) battlefield controller as my main (my sorc was TPK'd sigh). I was going to go bard16, but I'm thinking the synergies of starting with one or two levels of Marshal are worth sacking the 1 or 2 levels of casting. Especially since I am fond of talking my way out of a situation as opposed to the scorched earth approach. Has anyone tried more than one type? Bardx, Mar1/Bardx or Mar2/Bardx? How did they work out?
JamesMaissen 09-01-06, 11:53 PM	Has anyone tried more than one type? Bardx, Mar1/Bardx or Mar2/Bardx? How did they work out? Most tend to favor the bard9/Mar1/SublimeCord2/PrCX route. Keep in mind though that even though you get access to the wizard/sorc list that you are still a bard in form and have very limited slots to play with. Also the single level of marshal doesn't delay sublime cord casting while still giving you access to inspire greatness (which is great as the name implies). Plan the character out and you will be able to be everyone at the table's best friend. Don't try to be another class, but rather be the bard and not the backup sorcerer/rogue/ and or healer. Also plan on getting the party to think as a team.. as this always helps. For characters with this mindset I suggest that you bring consumables to the table (or even full out items) for OTHER party members to use. If it catches on you will find a great deal more of party cohesiveness and support shines more brightly when the party is a team. -James
Japangirl 09-02-06, 12:37 AM	My talky bard will be Bard 13/Marshal 1/Mindbender 1, so I can talk to anything that has a language and only lose one caster level. My marshal aura will be Motivate Charisma, so I can max out my diplomacy and bluff skills (level 15 and +56 or so on diplomacy. I'm looking forward to it). Of course, that bard is level 2 right now, so she has a ways to go.
Paul H 09-05-06, 07:32 AM	Hi Looking at the other threads reminded me of the other support class - Druid. If you define versatility as support, then Druids are very useful. 6th lvl character - Druid/Fighter/Druid.... can: 1) Support Front Line as Light (later Heavy) Cavalry. (Example above has Dire Bat) 2) Act as backup Healer 3) Buff characters 4) Support Arcane Blasters with elemental damage spells. 5) Wild Shape to fly ahead & act as Scout 6) Battlefield control with Entangle, Summon Swarm, etc. Not sure about Bard/Druids since there's difficult choice between Natural Spellcaster or Spirited Charge at 6th lvl. (And can't use lances)! Cheers Paul H
Japangirl 09-05-06, 02:48 PM	Druid/bard might make an interesting Mystic Theurge or Arcane Hierophant. Not terribly powerful, maybe, but interesting.
Paul H 09-06-06, 08:02 PM	Hi Not sure about mixing Druid with Bard - too many stat requirements. Level of Cleric (Boccob) might work - especially with the Magic & Force domains. Magic allows use of sorceror/wizard items, force grants reroll any damage, plus Mage Armour as domain spell. Level of Cleric of Pelor could grant access to Radiant Servant of Pelor, but can't see anyone doing more than single level dip as a Druid. The Enlarge Person (Strength Domain) could also be used on your animal companion. (Potions hellish expensive)! Level of Cleric also gives a few extra healing spells, freeing up those Druid slots. (Plus Divine Feats can be used by Druids - they just need level Cleric to grant Turn Undead prereq). Cheers Paul H
Biota 09-06-06, 10:13 PM	The Enlarge Person (Strength Domain) could also be used on your animal companion. Enlarge person doesn't work on animals, just humanoids. Biota
Cynric 09-06-06, 11:36 PM	Enlarge person, if cast by a druid, can affect the animal companion. It is under the animal companion side bar in the PHB. Or at least that is how I read it. It is a nice little bonus for anyone playing an Arcane Hierophant.
JosephKell 09-07-06, 01:40 AM	I used to play with and run games for a Straight Marshal (he stopped playing after he got to level 4). He was a Mounted Charger with Master of Tactics (first aura) and Over the Top (second aura). This Marshal was Str 16, Cha 16. Over the Top + Spirited Charge is +3 times Charisma to damage! He was doing +18 to damage on a mounted charge! At ConQuestSF 2006 there were 2 Bard 4/Marshal 1's. It was crazy. Both also had the +to Charisma Checks. It was nice having a positive Diplomacy Modifier for once (without having to pay for luxury lifestyle I mean... which I do anyway). That Bard was amazing... It gave everyone +5 on Charisma skills and Charisma Checks. Plus the Bard had a Lyre of Restful whatever (from the Libris Mortis that gives turn vulnerability -4 to a minimum of 1 effective HD). If you only want Inspirational Boost for Inspire Courage +2. Marshal 1/Bard 2 accomplishes this, but you will need the feat Arcane Preparation to take advantage of Pearls of Power 1 to get that inspirational boost spell back at the end of a combat. Straight Marshal after that 2nd Bard level will give you additional Minor Auras (Charisma Aura for social situations and Undead Dungeon Crawls, Master of Tactics for those flank situations...). Grant Move Action is also useful for putting the tanks at Full-Round attack distance (especially verse things with 10 foot reach as they can 5 foot the last square). Also good for giving squishy party members the chance to move away from suddenly appearing hard hitters or mobs ("Everyone! Back out the door! NOW!"). In one module I played in, there were at least 7 Ghoul mobs of 6 Ghouls each (at one point we had 18 ghouls to contend with, we were lucky we had 2 Clerics). But even with 18 Ghouls, if you are able to force them through a 5 foot wide tunnel they are a lot less dangerous (it is easier to make 3 Fort Saves vs Paralysis a round instead of 15 when 5 of them get next to you). Hm... the Minor Auras for Charisma to specific saves is also worth considering as later auras. If you do run up against something like Ghouls or Ghasts, being able to give +3 or +4 to Fortitude Saves can keep Characters from being Coup d'Graced (it happens when things like 2 round paralysis is involved).
Japangirl 09-07-06, 06:16 PM	Mobs are a special template in the DMG 2, so how many ghouls were in each mob only affected the hit dice of the mob and how much damage you had to do to it to make it dissipate.
JosephKell 09-07-06, 06:45 PM	Mobs are a special template in the DMG 2, so how many ghouls were in each mob only affected the hit dice of the mob and how much damage you had to do to it to make it dissipate.They weren't "mobs" at our APL they were just groups of ghouls. And yes, we all think the way the Mob or Horde (in another mod there were "Hordes", we all asked "what is the difference?") work is rediculous. At higher APLs (like APL 6) apparently they are 32 HD Undead Mobs. I swear, some things are just stupid. Undead Mobs should have negative turn resistance.