Swashbuckler Warmage Build [Archive] - Wizards Community

Swashbuckler Warmage Build [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
PaulH
03-30-06, 07:19 PM Hi

Just noticed on another thread that Swashbucklers get Insightful Strike, which adds their Int bonus to damage. Warmage does same to spells.

Since some spells act as weapon attacks, I wondered if anyone had thought of Swashbuckler/Warmage build? Would you move towards a PrC, if so, which one?

The idea of a character effectively doubling his Int bonus to say, Shocking Grasp is rather amusing.... :)

Swashbuckler 4/Warmage 1 (Int 16) with practiced Spellcaster would do 5D6+6 damage. You've also got Fist of Stone & True Strike, both useful spells. (I know, Accuracy is also very good, but have only really used it once, but it did help decide a battle).

Cheers
Paul H

Edit: Swashbuckler 3/Warmage4/Spellsword.... looks interesting.
kenobi65
03-30-06, 08:09 PM I'm not sure they'd stack. Read Insightful Strike:

She applies her Intelligence bonus (if any) as a bonus on damage rolls (in addition to any Strength bonus she might have) with any light weapon, as well as any weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse...

Does making a touch attack count as a "light weapon"? I'm not sure...unarmed strikes do, but with a touch attack, you're not really doing damage with the attack itself (i.e., your hand), it's the spell that your hand carries.
PaulH
03-30-06, 09:01 PM Hi

Yep, touch attacks count as light weapons, also since I make an attack roll the spell itself counts as a weapon. (Eg. Can get Wpn Specialisation Touch Attack, Favoured Enemy bonuses, criticals, etc).

They can also be used with Weapon Finesse.

Fist of Stone counts as a Light Weapon, though it doesn't add Edge, since it's a Transmutation of your own body part.

There aren't that many spells on Warmage list that need touch attack, though. Which is why Spellsword might be useful. Putting Lssr Acid Orb into a Rapier would deal minimum extra 3D8+Edge to Rapier damage + Insighful Strike. (That's Swashbuckler3/Warmage4/Spellsword4).

Other useful spells in the weapon are Melf's Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray & Poison.

Cheers
Paul H
amnuxoll
03-31-06, 12:43 PM I've seen nothing to suggest that a touch attack is a light weapon. I'd be surprised if many judges let you get away with that. I think you'd have to deliver touch spells with an unarmed strike (or natural attack in the case of Fist of Stone) to get the benefit.

You might consider a swashbuckler3/warmage1/monk2/enlightened fist build which would allow you to have a respectable unarmored AC and nice saving throws. Also, a monk can flurry with touch attacks. Your first three non-bonus feats are Combat Casting, Practiced Spellcaster and Extra Edge. Your skills are Concentration, Tumble, Use Magic Device and Escape Artist (to get out of grapples).

The difficulty is that you need too many abilities: Dex for attacks and AC, Con to live, Int for edge and AC, Wis for AC and Cha for spells. Strength is your only throwaway stat. If you're going human (yawn), I'd suggest: Str 8, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 12. If it were me, I'd go gnome with these post-adjustment stats: Str 6, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 12. You get a net +2 to AC and +1 to attacks over the human build. Also gnomes are fun. =)

There's fellow in my area who's actually combining a high Int warmage with with Extra Edge and 4 levels of fighter to get Weapon Specialization. Somewhere around 9th level his ranged attacks have about +11 to damage. He's also thinking about throwing in a scout level for +1d6 skirmish.

Also, just for temperance, I should state that many folks think a warmage is most effective as a wizard who can wear armor not a warrior who can cast spells. Therefore, if you're going to go with a warmage and you want a powergamer build (sigh) then Int is the wrong place to spend your ability points. Have a high Cha, a high Con, a high Dex and just enough Str for mithral full plate (should you manage to acquire it someday). Let everything else rot and don't multiclass. Also, your first two feats absolutely have to be point blank shot and precise shot. Your next two feats should be spell focus and greater spell focus(evoc).

But powergamer builds are boring and I like where you're going with this. It just helps to be aware of the boilerplate you are spurning whilst you spurn it. ;)

:AMN:
delewobmesid
03-31-06, 12:57 PM Extra Edge requires 4 levels of warmage...
solbergb
03-31-06, 01:03 PM I would let insightful strike stack, but it's a tough road for a good fighter type.

I think you'd stick with only 1 level of warmage, maybe two (since the second doesn't cost you BAB).

Still, you get truestrike, you get fist of stone and if you pick up practiced spellcaster you can get pretty decent shocking grasp attacks on stuff you're having trouble hitting. It isn't a horrible idea, and some swashbucklers would like having a 12 charisma anyway.

I'm not a fan of warmage as fighter/mage, I don't think the synergy is there, but it's a bit better if you are really a fighter with just a touch of warmage. Most of the important spells that are *missing* from the warmage list are level 2 and above.
ShinAkuma2
03-31-06, 01:06 PM I've seen nothing to suggest that a touch attack is a light weapon.

Weapon Finesse: You can treat touch spells as light weapons and use your Dexterity modifier (instead of your Strength modifier) on your touch attack rolls with such spells.

You were saying?
Arvagor
03-31-06, 01:50 PM Weapon Finesse: You can treat touch spells as light weapons and use your Dexterity modifier (instead of your Strength modifier) on your touch attack rolls with such spells.

You were saying?
And since it comes from a non-Core source, it is DM's discretion whether you are permitted to use it or not, so not neccessarily something to guarantee your build around.

Note also that the rule is in regards to using Weapon Finesse only, not to touch attacks in general (i.e. the rule is stating that if you have Weapon Finesse, you can use your Dex modifier on the attack roll instead of your Str; it doesn't necessarily make touch attacks in general light weapons...)

That being said, I think a DM would be behaving as an *ss if he didn't allow it after showing him the rule...
Mommy was an Orc
03-31-06, 02:32 PM A touch attack is a character's 'unarmed attack' that is made 'armed' by the touch attack spell(PHB 139). Your unarmed attack is a natural weapon and therefore you can use Weapon Finesse with it.

And since it comes from a non-Core source, it is DM's discretion whether you are permitted to use it or not, so not neccessarily something to guarantee your build around.
PaulH
03-31-06, 07:31 PM Hi

To take Arvagor's point:

1) Complete Arcane IS a Core Source for certain items/feats/classes/spell lists etc.

2) The entire question is about using Swashbuckler, which grants Weapon Finesse at 1st lvl. (From yet ANOTHER non PHB Core Source). So comment is mute.

Also, forgot who posted it (sorry), but don't need a natural attack for Fist of Stone - the spell grants you a 'Slam' attack for D6 (D4 for small) +1 1/2 Str Bonus Damage.

Thanks for the input, guys. I had thought about using just one or two lvls of Warmage, since there aren't many Touch Attack spells.

Re Enlightened Fist already looked at that - 6 lvls Warmage with 1 lvl Monk - straight into Enlightened Fist. Fist of Stone simple way gaining +6 Str Enhancement (for one hand). Excellent for Flurry.

Favoured choices so far would be Pure Warmage with 1 lvl of either Cleric or Ranger. (Follower of Ffarlaghn

Ranger: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot. Favoured Enemy Human
Warmage:
Warmage:Arcane Disciple, Celerity
Warmage:Advanced Learning - Tenser's Disk
Warmage:
Warmage: Extra Edge
Warmage: Advanced Learning - Leoumunds Tiny Hut

This way by 6th lvl you're looking at 4+Int mod extra damage vs Humans.
(Plus Point Blank Shot).
Fireballs suppress the enemy, clear out the fodder. Lssr Acid Orb Kills them!

Thanks for the help
Paul H
haferka
04-01-06, 08:34 PM Hi

... Fist of Stone simple way gaining +6 Str Enhancement (for one hand)... Paul H

Actually, the spell grants +6 Str Enhancement (nothing in the spell limits its usage to one hand... The spell grants a slam attack AND it grants +6 Enhancement to Strength.
PaulH
04-02-06, 06:42 PM Hi

Yes, but it does say ONE hand, so no good for off hand attacks, etc.

(1 Handed/2Handed OK, just not off hand attacks).

Cheers
Paul H

PS Think we've done this one to death - thanks for the input! :)
haferka
04-03-06, 09:22 AM Actually, you are getting mixed up by the spell discription...

It adds a +6 Enhancment bonus to strenth... AND ... completly seperate.. It grants a slam attack, which can NOT be used as an off hand attack..
PaulH
04-04-06, 06:47 PM Hi

The Slam Attack can be used as off-hand attack, albeit with a -5 to BAB.

Cheers
Paul H

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PaulH 03-30-06, 07:19 PM	Hi Just noticed on another thread that Swashbucklers get Insightful Strike, which adds their Int bonus to damage. Warmage does same to spells. Since some spells act as weapon attacks, I wondered if anyone had thought of Swashbuckler/Warmage build? Would you move towards a PrC, if so, which one? The idea of a character effectively doubling his Int bonus to say, Shocking Grasp is rather amusing.... :) Swashbuckler 4/Warmage 1 (Int 16) with practiced Spellcaster would do 5D6+6 damage. You've also got Fist of Stone & True Strike, both useful spells. (I know, Accuracy is also very good, but have only really used it once, but it did help decide a battle). Cheers Paul H Edit: Swashbuckler 3/Warmage4/Spellsword.... looks interesting.
kenobi65 03-30-06, 08:09 PM	I'm not sure they'd stack. Read Insightful Strike: She applies her Intelligence bonus (if any) as a bonus on damage rolls (in addition to any Strength bonus she might have) with any light weapon, as well as any weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse... Does making a touch attack count as a "light weapon"? I'm not sure...unarmed strikes do, but with a touch attack, you're not really doing damage with the attack itself (i.e., your hand), it's the spell that your hand carries.
PaulH 03-30-06, 09:01 PM	Hi Yep, touch attacks count as light weapons, also since I make an attack roll the spell itself counts as a weapon. (Eg. Can get Wpn Specialisation Touch Attack, Favoured Enemy bonuses, criticals, etc). They can also be used with Weapon Finesse. Fist of Stone counts as a Light Weapon, though it doesn't add Edge, since it's a Transmutation of your own body part. There aren't that many spells on Warmage list that need touch attack, though. Which is why Spellsword might be useful. Putting Lssr Acid Orb into a Rapier would deal minimum extra 3D8+Edge to Rapier damage + Insighful Strike. (That's Swashbuckler3/Warmage4/Spellsword4). Other useful spells in the weapon are Melf's Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray & Poison. Cheers Paul H
amnuxoll 03-31-06, 12:43 PM	I've seen nothing to suggest that a touch attack is a light weapon. I'd be surprised if many judges let you get away with that. I think you'd have to deliver touch spells with an unarmed strike (or natural attack in the case of Fist of Stone) to get the benefit. You might consider a swashbuckler3/warmage1/monk2/enlightened fist build which would allow you to have a respectable unarmored AC and nice saving throws. Also, a monk can flurry with touch attacks. Your first three non-bonus feats are Combat Casting, Practiced Spellcaster and Extra Edge. Your skills are Concentration, Tumble, Use Magic Device and Escape Artist (to get out of grapples). The difficulty is that you need too many abilities: Dex for attacks and AC, Con to live, Int for edge and AC, Wis for AC and Cha for spells. Strength is your only throwaway stat. If you're going human (yawn), I'd suggest: Str 8, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 12. If it were me, I'd go gnome with these post-adjustment stats: Str 6, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 12. You get a net +2 to AC and +1 to attacks over the human build. Also gnomes are fun. =) There's fellow in my area who's actually combining a high Int warmage with with Extra Edge and 4 levels of fighter to get Weapon Specialization. Somewhere around 9th level his ranged attacks have about +11 to damage. He's also thinking about throwing in a scout level for +1d6 skirmish. Also, just for temperance, I should state that many folks think a warmage is most effective as a wizard who can wear armor not a warrior who can cast spells. Therefore, if you're going to go with a warmage and you want a powergamer build (sigh) then Int is the wrong place to spend your ability points. Have a high Cha, a high Con, a high Dex and just enough Str for mithral full plate (should you manage to acquire it someday). Let everything else rot and don't multiclass. Also, your first two feats absolutely have to be point blank shot and precise shot. Your next two feats should be spell focus and greater spell focus(evoc). But powergamer builds are boring and I like where you're going with this. It just helps to be aware of the boilerplate you are spurning whilst you spurn it. ;) :AMN:
delewobmesid 03-31-06, 12:57 PM	Extra Edge requires 4 levels of warmage...
solbergb 03-31-06, 01:03 PM	I would let insightful strike stack, but it's a tough road for a good fighter type. I think you'd stick with only 1 level of warmage, maybe two (since the second doesn't cost you BAB). Still, you get truestrike, you get fist of stone and if you pick up practiced spellcaster you can get pretty decent shocking grasp attacks on stuff you're having trouble hitting. It isn't a horrible idea, and some swashbucklers would like having a 12 charisma anyway. I'm not a fan of warmage as fighter/mage, I don't think the synergy is there, but it's a bit better if you are really a fighter with just a touch of warmage. Most of the important spells that are missing from the warmage list are level 2 and above.
ShinAkuma2 03-31-06, 01:06 PM	I've seen nothing to suggest that a touch attack is a light weapon. Weapon Finesse: You can treat touch spells as light weapons and use your Dexterity modifier (instead of your Strength modifier) on your touch attack rolls with such spells. You were saying?
Arvagor 03-31-06, 01:50 PM	Weapon Finesse: You can treat touch spells as light weapons and use your Dexterity modifier (instead of your Strength modifier) on your touch attack rolls with such spells. You were saying? And since it comes from a non-Core source, it is DM's discretion whether you are permitted to use it or not, so not neccessarily something to guarantee your build around. Note also that the rule is in regards to using Weapon Finesse only, not to touch attacks in general (i.e. the rule is stating that if you have Weapon Finesse, you can use your Dex modifier on the attack roll instead of your Str; it doesn't necessarily make touch attacks in general light weapons...) That being said, I think a DM would be behaving as an *ss if he didn't allow it after showing him the rule...
Mommy was an Orc 03-31-06, 02:32 PM	A touch attack is a character's 'unarmed attack' that is made 'armed' by the touch attack spell(PHB 139). Your unarmed attack is a natural weapon and therefore you can use Weapon Finesse with it. And since it comes from a non-Core source, it is DM's discretion whether you are permitted to use it or not, so not neccessarily something to guarantee your build around.
PaulH 03-31-06, 07:31 PM	Hi To take Arvagor's point: 1) Complete Arcane IS a Core Source for certain items/feats/classes/spell lists etc. 2) The entire question is about using Swashbuckler, which grants Weapon Finesse at 1st lvl. (From yet ANOTHER non PHB Core Source). So comment is mute. Also, forgot who posted it (sorry), but don't need a natural attack for Fist of Stone - the spell grants you a 'Slam' attack for D6 (D4 for small) +1 1/2 Str Bonus Damage. Thanks for the input, guys. I had thought about using just one or two lvls of Warmage, since there aren't many Touch Attack spells. Re Enlightened Fist already looked at that - 6 lvls Warmage with 1 lvl Monk - straight into Enlightened Fist. Fist of Stone simple way gaining +6 Str Enhancement (for one hand). Excellent for Flurry. Favoured choices so far would be Pure Warmage with 1 lvl of either Cleric or Ranger. (Follower of Ffarlaghn Ranger: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot. Favoured Enemy Human Warmage: Warmage:Arcane Disciple, Celerity Warmage:Advanced Learning - Tenser's Disk Warmage: Warmage: Extra Edge Warmage: Advanced Learning - Leoumunds Tiny Hut This way by 6th lvl you're looking at 4+Int mod extra damage vs Humans. (Plus Point Blank Shot). Fireballs suppress the enemy, clear out the fodder. Lssr Acid Orb Kills them! Thanks for the help Paul H
haferka 04-01-06, 08:34 PM	Hi ... Fist of Stone simple way gaining +6 Str Enhancement (for one hand)... Paul H Actually, the spell grants +6 Str Enhancement (nothing in the spell limits its usage to one hand... The spell grants a slam attack AND it grants +6 Enhancement to Strength.
PaulH 04-02-06, 06:42 PM	Hi Yes, but it does say ONE hand, so no good for off hand attacks, etc. (1 Handed/2Handed OK, just not off hand attacks). Cheers Paul H PS Think we've done this one to death - thanks for the input! :)
haferka 04-03-06, 09:22 AM	Actually, you are getting mixed up by the spell discription... It adds a +6 Enhancment bonus to strenth... AND ... completly seperate.. It grants a slam attack, which can NOT be used as an off hand attack..
PaulH 04-04-06, 06:47 PM	Hi The Slam Attack can be used as off-hand attack, albeit with a -5 to BAB. Cheers Paul H