Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jay_Ibero_911 02-25-07, 02:26 PM	At least those that are large or smaller...I recently ran a mod with a dragon in it, and at first was concerned because the dragon seemed pretty powerful for the APL. However, through the tactical use of alchemical items, they were able to minimize it's chances to full attack, while also bypassing it's very high AC with alchemists fires, and getting time to buff one of the fighters to get in a big hit...The warmage helped too...
UMiskatonic 02-25-07, 04:07 PM	Oh, absolutely. If you have to fight a dragon, work on its touch AC. Alchemical items are a great way to do that, so are the various selection of ray and orb spells. My preference would be to work it over with debuffing effects, and send the melee guys in to finish.
_metz_ 02-25-07, 06:31 PM	Not just dragons, a lot of things, they are remarkably effective. I loved the look on the PCs face when an NPC pulled one out and hit em with it once though lol!!!
JJeff 02-25-07, 08:24 PM	Well... I used a Dragon's Hover feat to stop the tossing and shooting until they got close enough for me to massacre (dust cloud provides total concelment). But I guess it depends on the Mod to see if the Dragon's meant to be ready for the players or not.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-25-07, 08:42 PM	Well... I used a Dragon's Hover feat to stop the tossing and shooting until they got close enough for me to massacre (dust cloud provides total concelment). But I guess it depends on the Mod to see if the Dragon's meant to be ready for the players or not. Even then, since they will probably not miss the touch attack, they still have a 50% chance of gooping the dragon...
JJeff 02-25-07, 09:37 PM	I know, just makes them come forward though. Closer to the 'Kill-zone'
Hariman 02-25-07, 11:47 PM	Sounds like the party used some great Anti-Dragon tactics. Centaurs with Tanglefoot bags (the large centaurs at least) will nerf huge dragons. But dragons are TOUGH. There's a consensus in my area that many of the dragons are under CRed at the lower challenge ratings. (Immunities, flying, potential full attack damage, breath weapon, and some nasty feats that can add to this. Like flyby attack and adroit flyby attack.) So I've got nothing against something that offers an option to weaken dragons. Especially since I've had a character killed by a dragon.
King Kashue 02-25-07, 11:57 PM	None of my characters ever have, nor ever will use a tanglefoot bag... "So...It's a bag... and you throw it... and the bag breaks when you throw it? *pause* Is the bag made of glass? Pottery maybe?":thinks:
Gwumph 02-26-07, 02:13 AM	Think of maybe a water-Ballon It's tight but not to tight. Generally can be handled and mushed (Medium filled ballons don't break under pressure, they still have stretchy left) but break under impact.
King Kashue 02-26-07, 02:42 AM	Think of maybe a water-Ballon It's tight but not to tight. Generally can be handled and mushed (Medium filled ballons don't break under pressure, they still have stretchy left) but break under impact. If they had described it as such, maybe...But there's a clear description. Obviously there's leeway to be given, and for things like Alchemists fire, it's within bounds (Greek Fire Existed, though it's not exactly alike, it's close enough)... But a leather bag that stays together until you throw it, then it somehow breaks apart?...melt it over nachos, along with the 15 foot length of sharp spikey chain that somehow you never hurt yourself with :D
Madfox11 02-26-07, 04:28 AM	You place to much value on fluff and not enough on cinematics ;) The thing is an alchemic item, something that can only be crafted by spellcasters, so even though it does not look magical, it has at least some basis in magic. It is not more unrealistic than wizards being able to perfectly pinpoint fireballs at 400 feet distance or fighters to climb a wall faster than humanly possible. I loved the look on the PCs face when an NPC pulled one out and hit em with it once though lol!!! Yes, the players still love to joke about the time that the PCs had set up an ambush, and one the first round the barbarian PC was stuck into a tree by one of these things and he failed to get out until after the combat was over... Never get too dependend on making those Strength checks since the dice can go bad even if you only need some low number ;)
solbergb 02-26-07, 12:03 PM	Yes, the players still love to joke about the time that the PCs had set up an ambush, and one the first round the barbarian PC was stuck into a tree by one of these things and he failed to get out until after the combat was over... Never get too dependend on making those Strength checks since the dice can go bad even if you only need some low number ;) Yeah, if you get stuck and aren't in reach of any enemy, the best thing to do is just attack the goop. It doesn't take much to destroy it.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-26-07, 02:38 PM	Centaurs with Tanglefoot bags (the large centaurs at least) will nerf huge dragons. No they won't. The limitation of the sizes that a tanglefoot bag can effect are a property of the item itself, not the wielder. It specifically says that huge or larger creatures are unaffected by them. An appropriately sized net on the other hand, used by a large centaur, COULD entangle a dragon, because the net states that it works on creatures within one size category of you.
LGMoses 02-26-07, 03:06 PM	But a leather bag that stays together until you throw it, then it somehow breaks apart?...melt it over nachos, along with the 15 foot length of sharp spikey chain that somehow you never hurt yourself with :D yeah, tanglefoot bags are a touch silly. Maybe you loosen the string at the top? but I've got an idea. Do you think they'd let me rust my spiked chain so that all of my enemies must make a fort save or get tetnis?
Jay_Ibero_911 02-26-07, 03:13 PM	yeah, tanglefoot bags are a touch silly. Maybe you loosen the string at the top? but I've got an idea. Do you think they'd let me rust my spiked chain so that all of my enemies must make a fort save or get tetnis? Why not? Not like most enemies would live long enough to suffer the effects...
LGMoses 02-26-07, 03:24 PM	Why not? Not like most enemies would live long enough to suffer the effects... For that one goblin who runs away....:evillaugh
UMiskatonic 02-26-07, 04:05 PM	I saw a player nail a vampire to a wall with a tanglefoot bag once. That left us with only one to fight among the five of us (player six was dominated). The look on his face was priceless when the vampire turned to mist, and moved right up next to him.
Lupo 02-26-07, 04:09 PM	I saw a player nail a vampire to a wall with a tanglefoot bag once. That left us with only one to fight among the five of us (player six was dominated). The look on his face was priceless when the vampire turned to mist, and moved right up next to him. enough time to coat his magic weapon with silversheen :D or his silver weapon with oil of magic weapon ;) ciao martin m.
Hariman 02-26-07, 11:11 PM	No they won't. The limitation of the sizes that a tanglefoot bag can effect are a property of the item itself, not the wielder. It specifically says that huge or larger creatures are unaffected by them. An appropriately sized net on the other hand, used by a large centaur, COULD entangle a dragon, because the net states that it works on creatures within one size category of you. You got me there, I thought that T-foot bags came in small and medium (and thus potentially large). Why does everybody forget that you can cut your way out of a tanglefoot bag? And does no dragon try the strength check? (Large ones shouldn't have much trouble with this.) Damage dealt to the goo is automatic (no to hit roll) and the strength check should be relatively easy for stronger enemies.
King Kashue 02-26-07, 11:47 PM	You got me there, I thought that T-foot bags came in small and medium (and thus potentially large). Why does everybody forget that you can cut your way out of a tanglefoot bag? And does no dragon try the strength check? (Large ones shouldn't have much trouble with this.) Damage dealt to the goo is automatic (no to hit roll) and the strength check should be relatively easy for stronger enemies. Scraping off the goo or the strength check is only to free yourself if you're stuck to the ground. Even when free, you're at half movement and still entangled (for the 2d4 rounds it takes to become brittle).
Hariman 02-27-07, 12:12 AM	Then dragons should always carry universal solvent. Just in case SMART adventurers come along.
Potato Weasel 02-27-07, 07:24 AM	I think the main problem for the dragon is that they're usually nailed with the bag when they're a ways up from the ground, and so it isn't so much making the strength check as it is surviving the fall.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-27-07, 03:44 PM	I think the main problem for the dragon is that they're usually nailed with the bag when they're a ways up from the ground, and so it isn't so much making the strength check as it is surviving the fall. Farthest you can throw a tanglefoot bag is 50ft at -10 to hit , unless you have far shot...I think 5d6 damage isn't a big deal for most dragons...
King Kashue 02-27-07, 04:00 PM	Farthest you can throw a tanglefoot bag is 50ft at -10 to hit , unless you have far shot...I think 5d6 damage isn't a big deal for most dragons... There are gnomish dohickeys that change the range increment of thrown weps to 50ft (I think, might be 30ft.) Those could make a dent...
trollbill 02-27-07, 04:40 PM	There are gnomish dohickeys that change the range increment of thrown weps to 50ft (I think, might be 30ft.) Those could make a dent... Yes, the Gnome Calculus gives it a 50ft. range increment and, depending on DM interpretation, may also make it a projectile weapon, thus giving it a max range of 500 ft. It's well worth it for this even with a -4 penalty for non-proficiency since you are still making a touch attack. Launch item also works well for this.
Rerednaw 02-27-07, 05:32 PM	Yes, the Gnome Calculus gives it a 50ft. range increment and, depending on DM interpretation, may also make it a projectile weapon, thus giving it a max range of 500 ft. It's well worth it for this even with a -4 penalty for non-proficiency since you are still making a touch attack. Launch item also works well for this. I'm sorry but what 3.5 book is the Gnome Calculus from? I couldn't find it. It is Open, NONC or Closed?
KarmaInferno 02-27-07, 05:46 PM	Tanglefoot arrows need to be invented. Seriously. :D -karma
Howie23 02-27-07, 06:19 PM	Launch item also works well for this. Launch item is an incredible spell for a cantrip, but it is NONC. :( David
Potato Weasel 02-28-07, 12:12 AM	The most amazing item i have ever seen was in the magi of faerun (yes, that horrible, best left forgotten tome). It had a rod that was basically a tanglefoot bazooka, cant remember specifics, but it had something like a 500ft range and had a higher save i think. Why cant this be ported to greyhawk? :weep: Anyhow, it doesnt matter much for the 50ft max range, if you're already flying 50-100 feet up. I once slowly killed a pack of griffons by using tanglefoot bags.
frupton 02-28-07, 01:10 AM	It had a rod that was basically a tanglefoot bazooka, cant remember specifics, but it had something like a 500ft range and had a higher save i think. Why cant this be ported to greyhawk? :weep: Presumably because you may not care to play the mod where the bad guys are using against the party. Oh, you just wanted access without having to fight bad guys that are carrying it? :D
Hariman 02-28-07, 01:36 AM	Presumably because you may not care to play the mod where the bad guys are using against the party. Oh, you just wanted access without having to fight bad guys that are carrying it? :D Bad guy elf rangers with Far Shot and Uber dex and casters with long range spells. Because what player bothers with long range spells when most of the enemies show up within 50 feet? Remind me to add some long range spells to my rogue/wizard's spellbook.
Potato Weasel 02-28-07, 07:37 AM	Are you kidding? That would be the best fight ever! And anyone who played through it would forever carry sacks full of universal solvent and alchohol. (and possibly recieve suspicious looks from guards for carrying that particular combination) But no, get a reach weapon on an enlarged flying knight (at least level 3 in knight) have him threatening the dragon, then tanglefoot bag and net the dragon. and then, just for good measure, center a widened ice storm on it. Now, is that dragon having to sacrifice 2,3,4,6 or 8 squares of movement for every square it actually moves?
Southernskies 02-28-07, 08:05 AM	But no, get a reach weapon on an enlarged flying knight (at least level 3 in knight) have him threatening the dragon, then tanglefoot bag and net the dragon. and then, just for good measure, center a widened ice storm on it. Now, is that dragon having to sacrifice 2,3,4,6 or 8 squares of movement for every square it actually moves? Using RAW: 2 squares of movement for the "Bulwark of Defence" ability. All the other options are speed penalties. Tanglefoot bag and net both give the "entangled" condition (so do not stack): 1/2 speed The Ice Storm reduces all land movement to 1/2 speed within its effect. As per the glossary, applying multiples to real-world values of weight or distance uses standard math ( and not the increased multiplyer of crits etc). An adult red dragon has a speed of 40 ft (150 ft flying), so results in: Land speed: 10 ft (costing 2 squares for hindered terrain) = net move of 5 ft as a move action. Flying speed: 75 ft (costing 2 squares for hindered terrain) = net move of ~30 ft (more if some squares aren't threatened by the knight) assuming it made its reflex save.