Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thanlok 11-14-05, 08:43 PM	Just played the final 2 round conclusion to the "Dust" series and man am I upset. For those of you who are wondering, some of the other parts of it were "Riddle of the Dust" and "Duke of the Dust". As I said, me and some friends played "War of the Dust" yesterday, the final part which was a 2 rounder. I am just curious if anyone else has played this 2 rounder and what your thoughts on it were. I cannot believe that this mod was allowed to be run to be quite honest. The mod can do a TPK without the party being in combat! It is a very well written mod and actually is a good story, but at the end we discovered that you can't finish it and live. It's just impossible. I can't believe that we are thankful that we did not finish the mod. Also, the AR access is only for those who play it at least at APL 8 thought the mod starts at APL 4, which is what we played. I really really enjoyed the first two parts of this series but this 2 rounder to finish it off is just brutal. But those are my thoughts. Just curious if anyone else has played it or ran it and how you feel about the mod. Thanlok of Ket
Samwise 11-14-05, 09:18 PM	I ran it. At high APL. And the players finished it and lived. They did it in a rather peculiar way, but they did it. It is a difficult module with a difficult encounter. That happens. And yes, several modules have the best stuff either limited by APL or out of purchase reach at low APLs. Again, that happens. You shrug and move on.
Thanlok 11-14-05, 11:42 PM	I would love to hear how they lived. The temple prohibits magic, and you need to run out of it before the collapse, but due to the altitude modifiers, the whole party is fatigued and cannot run. I did not enjoy the mod and was wondering if it was run properly for us. Thanks, Thanlok
Samwise 11-14-05, 11:49 PM	You need to watch your spoilers. And I don't have a copy of the module (I didn't order it, I just ran it for others) so I can't check to be sure of all the conditions and the like.
blood_kite 11-14-05, 11:50 PM	Our GM may have forgotten about the high altitude fatigued part, but doesn't the boxed text mention that it takes over a month to get from your drop off point to where you are going? According to the DMG that is enough to become acclimated to high-altitude environments.
Thanlok 11-15-05, 12:39 AM	Thanks for these great replies to this post guys. I was just so bummed because I loved the other parts of this series. I really do appreciate the input. I know well enough that sometimes the way I see things isn't always the right way. I just found the mod very, very rough. This may be due to the DM and the way he ran it. I just felt cheated of a great ending to the series I enjoyed so much. Thanks, Thanlok
Samwise 11-15-05, 12:50 AM	Yeah, that's always a pain. As it happens, I know the author, I know the background he was working from, and I know the myth cycle he was using. So for me it was more watching and waiting for the inevitable to play out. (Or at least run on the players.)
boolean 11-15-05, 03:51 AM	Samwise, you know the author? Slug him in the arm for me next time you see him. Spoilers for War of the Dust After you finish the final combat, the entire pyramid collapses in 1d4+5 rounds, dealing 8d6 points of damage to, and burying, any PC trapped inside. The PCs must cover 600ft to escape, and due to a dimensiona lock effect, cannot teleport/dim. door to escape. So, playing a dwarf, gnome, or halfling, at APL 4? Yeah, you'll probably die. Hope you had fun.
Sieylianna 11-15-05, 07:48 AM	Our DM also pointed out that you can't run because it's not a straight line so no one could escape it as written, although he didn't mention the dimension lock effect. Of course, the two rounds had ran for 9 hours (the first fight took over 2 hours) and people had places to go, so we just glossed over it. Ed
Namarus 11-15-05, 12:07 PM	I think that the Dust series were actually the worst set of cores that I've played in a while. They especially screwed over low level characters in my opinion.
Samwise 11-15-05, 01:01 PM	Now I remember. They used haste (and maybe fly), carrying any those ways wouldn't help enough. As noted, it was a high APL group, and I understand that probably isn't possible for a lower level party. And I will note that I made it rather clear that they had a long way to go, a little time to cover the ground, and that mundane solutions weren't going to work. So I didn't sit there and wait for their time to run out, but made it clear that they either came up with a solution or I would just skip to the death trap part of the program. And I still think it was a fun adventure.
King Kashue 11-15-05, 01:57 PM	My Half-Orc picked up the halfling and ran with him... I actually enjoyed the modules, I generally dig Paul Looby's writing (even if he is plotting to conquer the world...or maybe he's shaved the "evil genius" goatee)...
Simpi 11-15-05, 02:14 PM	I think that the Dust series were actually the worst set of cores that I've played in a while. They especially screwed over low level characters in my opinion. I think 'Dust' is excellent, though people should be aware of the horrible typo in first part of the series. It marks that in one combat at APL2 you have 6 opponents instead of 2 which will most likely TPK any group without 4th level tank in the group, unless DM softballs it tremendously and brings the big gun NPCs to fight as well... S.H, the guy from NAerie
RedKnightofKet 11-15-05, 07:52 PM	I played with Thanlok in "War", and I think I was more thoroughly screwed over than most. I play a halfling druid, whose focus is the riding dog he fights on (or rather, the dog does the fighting, I am his support wing). After having a fifteen minute conversation over which character I should bring (this 6th level druid, or my 4th level dwarven scout), the DM basically encouraged me to bring my druid, because of the strong dog. Then, not five minutes into the mod, I find out that I can't bring my dog. I try and come up with a solution, like shrinking my dog (which I would have done, had I been given a chance to change spells), and was told no: we have to leave right away. My feat selection, prestige class (Beastmaster), depended totally on the dog - without him, I was a waste of space. Am I wrong in thinking the DM, who knows me and knows my character concept, should have steered me the other way? Either way, that mod was 8 hours of hell, for which I received a whopping 670 XP (I had to leave a little early, thinking 8 hours should have been enough time). Borzoo the Druid aka the Red Knight of Ket
ShinAkuma2 11-15-05, 09:46 PM	Technically, your DM shouldn't be steering you in any direction. Rule number 2: Never let the DM makes decisions for you.
solbergb 11-16-05, 06:32 PM	1. Mobility problems are part of the game. Our APL4 party had all the slow people near the top, including an NPC that was incapacitated, while the fast folks reached for the brass ring. 2. If your character has a weakness you should have a plan for the weakness. I have a gnome that goes 15' and relies on a dog for mobility. In situations where the dog isn't around, can I contribute even if I am slow? Yes, but it is harder. When I have more levels, a potion of fly is probably going to be on the list of required stuff, for precisely the kind of situation in that module. Gnomes are pretty light, often a BDF can carry you on his shoulders or strap you to his back, if you don't mind the indignity. My sorceress has moved a lot of gnomes and dwarves on Tenser Disks too. 3. The Judge's job is to make sure the party has a good time, and should do little things to personalize the mod to the players, like having somebody famous in the area be recognized by an NPC, or accepting that THIS party insists on traveling underwater to cross the river instead of taking the boat and adapting. It isn't his job to cover PC weaknesses in their build. 4. Altitude isn't a factor if you take the specified time to get there, and even if it is, there are spells that help, starting with lesser restoration. The Dust series had its problems, both with structure and encounters, but the sense I mostly got was that the author was perhaps overly ambitious and sometimes the mods drowned in complexity or were shortchanged by harassed Judges on time limits. I've seen worse mods, I've seen better. There was a pretty decent story in it. I personally had fun in War of the Dust simply because our party was mostly stealthy/archery types and because we could ALL do such things, we were able to do a bunch of tactics and strategems that a normall a party couldn't do. I'm afraid our experience was likely different from the average, so I can't speak much to the balance etc. As an aside - shrinking the dog was a valid tactic listed in the mod. Either your judge was unprepared, or he was roleplaying the NPC in question to be arrogant and unhelpful (which was...accurate near as I can tell). It is possible you gave in too easily. Our druid dug her heels in and refused to leave without her animal (we were literally willing to walk if we had to - we had our own ways of covering ground fast). I forget if it was diplomacy, intimidation, simple stubbornness, but they did relent eventually.
ranger76 11-16-05, 08:07 PM	or were shortchanged by harassed Judges on time limits. The time limits are set by the RPGA not the judge or the author of the mod. If a author writes a 1 round mod that takes most people 5 hours to get through, thats just plain bad writting and not the fault of the GM. However it is up to the GM to make sure that it stays within the time limit and therefore may need to "Gloss" over some parts.
Sieylianna 11-16-05, 10:12 PM	Our druid dug her heels in and refused to leave without her animal (we were literally willing to walk if we had to - we had our own ways of covering ground fast). I forget if it was diplomacy, intimidation, simple stubbornness, but they did relent eventually. We had two druids and the loss of brown bear and tiger companions seriously hampered the party when it came time to fight. We also didn't have a wizard or a cleric, so the druids were hard-pressed to fill in. (APL 10). Ed
King Kashue 11-16-05, 10:41 PM	We had two druids and the loss of brown bear and tiger companions seriously hampered the party when it came time to fight. We also didn't have a wizard or a cleric, so the druids were hard-pressed to fill in. (APL 10). Ed I really dislike modules that prevent animal companions from coming...The animal companion is built into the power level of that class, not having it is a huge handicap... Some modules it's understandable, but I've run others when the author seems to have gone out of his way to screw druids...
solbergb 11-17-05, 01:15 PM	The time limits are set by the RPGA not the judge or the author of the mod. If a author writes a 1 round mod that takes most people 5 hours to get through, thats just plain bad writting and not the fault of the GM. However it is up to the GM to make sure that it stays within the time limit and therefore may need to "Gloss" over some parts. Sometimes this is due to APL tiering. A mod may run slow at some APLs and not others due to the monster shift from level to level. A good example of this is one mod I prepped with an air elemental battle at APL6-8 that was very dangerous and complex, that shifted to a more straightforward templated strong monster fight at APL 10-12 (at 14-16, the elementals came back, slowing things down again). At APL 2,4,10,12, this mod was straightforward and wasn't hard to get done in time. At APL6-8, 14-16, the mod could get very behind if the second battle went badly. Alternately the mod may run slow because the party is simply ineffective against one of the challenges, and where the average party would dispose of it in 2-4 rounds, this party is taking 10-15 rounds. It isn't always the fault of the mod or author. The parties I was in finished both Duke of the Dust and War of the Dust in reasonable time periods, but Riddle took a very long time. The only mod in this series I prepped was Riddle of the Dust, and I would say that this mod was not a good choice for a 4 hour con slot. Any mod that has multiple fights that are slow for various reasons (eg, miss chance, very high AC, complex terrain) AND has puzzles AND has roleplay is going to be tough to fit into a single slot. But that is also true of some of my favorite mods in year 4, and some of our best regionals. I don't know what to do about it, except do my best to be prepared as a judge and try to keep the party moving. In the case of my riddle experience, it was partly the mod, partly the judge (he tends to run a little slowly, even though I always enjoy his tables) and partly the party (we had trouble with the puzzles).
solbergb 11-17-05, 01:19 PM	We had two druids and the loss of brown bear and tiger companions seriously hampered the party when it came time to fight. We also didn't have a wizard or a cleric, so the druids were hard-pressed to fill in. (APL 10). Ed The brown bear could have been shrunk. The tiger - nope. As a DM I would let the druids rechoose companions (it is after all a 24 hour ritual only), either at the beginning for more travel-friendly choices, or after the trip, when you are after all in natural terrain and not on a time-limit where 24 hours is going to seriously set you back. You might be limited to the kind of animals found in that part of the world, but it would be a whole lot better than nothing.
blood_kite 11-17-05, 04:39 PM	The brown bear could have been shrunk. The tiger - nope. As a DM I would let the druids rechoose companions (it is after all a 24 hour ritual only), either at the beginning for more travel-friendly choices, or after the trip, when you are after all in natural terrain and not on a time-limit where 24 hours is going to seriously set you back. You might be limited to the kind of animals found in that part of the world, but it would be a whole lot better than nothing. While this should work, Tehn has been described as a place where literally nothing lives. The ground cannot support plant life of any kind and animals will not normally live in places that cannot support them. The exception to this being creatures that can fly outside of this desolate place for food and sentient creatures that go into it because they will either get killed by adventurers or are in fact adventurers. My halfling druid wasn't given time to get a new one before we left (he was told to suck it up by another druid who simply never used a companion) and once we were on our way there were no local animals I could bond. I can't help but wonder what all the monsters you encounter eat. Actually, I don't think I want to know.
JohnduBois 11-17-05, 04:43 PM	You know what those monsters eat - all these TPK'd parties people keep talking about! So THAT'S why it's so hard - to support the ecosystem of Tenh! After all, adventurers are both nutritious AND delicious!
King Kashue 11-17-05, 05:09 PM	The brown bear could have been shrunk. The tiger - nope. Uh, why one and not the other?
solbergb 11-21-05, 06:21 PM	because I'm a dork and thought we were talking about black bears (medium) and not brown bears (large). No, if I was judging and the PC's wanted to have size large companions on that mission, they'd be given the option to arrange their own transport for them (something most druids can do just fine at the levels they have large beasties - longstrider and travelers mount, with a bit of spider climb or air walk for the rough spots would get you almost anywhere at speeds simliar to the proposed transport) or swap them out for size medium or smaller companions, or plan to do the 24 hour ritual once you got where you were going. Size mediums would have to be converted to size small before transport, and kept calm with handle animal. Three options. Then let the players decide.
solbergb 11-21-05, 06:27 PM	While this should work, Tehn has been described as a place where literally nothing lives. The ground cannot support plant life of any kind and animals will not normally live in places that cannot support them. Tenh is like that. Aetherstone (where I started the mission) is not....everything behind Aetherstone was shielded from the ether threat. It suffers from refugees, army overpopulation and such, but you are close to both the Troll Fens and the Phostwood, should you not want a more ordinary animal like a dog or horse. Nor is the area around Redspan (the Phostwood is just short hop away, and it is bordered by BK and Iuz, where a wild animal could probably be found). Nor is the location where you are headed - there are in fact animals and vegitation there too. Yes, replacing an animal companion in the stonelands is nigh impossible. The mod, however, doesn't take place in the stonelands - at least most of it isn't there. The only mods that take place in the stonelands other than interactives that I'm aware of are Riddle in the Dust (which does indeed, only have encounters that make sense there) and a regional Pale mod Posessions in the Dust (which has a different set of encounters, but they also make sense). In those mods, changing your companion would be difficult once you began, but there isn't any reason why before the adventure started you couldn't pick one appropriate for the challenge.
Sieylianna 11-21-05, 11:33 PM	The only mods that take place in the stonelands other than interactives that I'm aware of are Riddle in the Dust (which does indeed, only have encounters that make sense there) and a regional Pale mod Posessions in the Dust (which has a different set of encounters, but they also make sense). In those mods, changing your companion would be difficult once you began, but there isn't any reason why before the adventure started you couldn't pick one appropriate for the challenge. The problem is that you don't find out until you are already in the module that the method of transportation you are using doesn't allow for medium or large animal companions. And reduce animal is not an option due to the travel time required. Ed
solbergb 11-22-05, 07:36 PM	The problem is that you don't find out until you are already in the module that the method of transportation you are using doesn't allow for medium or large animal companions. And reduce animal is not an option due to the travel time required. Ed Reduce animal is hour/level. Travel time is 8 hours/day maximum or you force march (which didn't happen). Even a 3rd level druid with 14+ wisdom could keep his animal reduced. If the DM is so rigid that he won't let you choose an appropriate animal at the outset, you could stop and do the ritual after you arrive. There isn't much of a time limit in the mod, even implied (you don't want to take forever at it, but doubling your fighting power by recruiting some moutain animals to help you is worth 24 hours of delay).
Sieylianna 11-22-05, 11:08 PM	Reduce animal is hour/level. Travel time is 8 hours/day maximum or you force march (which didn't happen). Even a 3rd level druid with 14+ wisdom could keep his animal reduced. If the DM is so rigid that he won't let you choose an appropriate animal at the outset, you could stop and do the ritual after you arrive. There isn't much of a time limit in the mod, even implied (you don't want to take forever at it, but doubling your fighting power by recruiting some moutain animals to help you is worth 24 hours of delay). The point is that both druids had large animal companions and even a reduce animal would not have helped in the module. There was nothing to indicate this problem in the module blurb. Then you're in a barren wasteland with no animals around. The two druids had talked about summoning new companions when we reached our destination, but that didn't happen because there were no animals available. Ed
solbergb 11-23-05, 11:43 AM	The point is that both druids had large animal companions and even a reduce animal would not have helped in the module. There was nothing to indicate this problem in the module blurb. At the beginning of the mod, before play, the DM can say "there will be a problem with large animal companions. You may want to pick a smaller one before we begin." That is covered under Judge instructions for running an RPGA table, which says something like "look at the table and try to adjust the adventure for the party". He had the ability to do this. The Judge chose instead to be inflexible. Then you're in a barren wasteland with no animals around. The two druids had talked about summoning new companions when we reached our destination, but that didn't happen because there were no animals available. Ed That's how your Judge ran it. That isn't what the mod actually said. There are in fact no combat encounters set in the stonelands. Everywhere else supports life. After a couple days travel you are out of the stonelands. You are now in the Griff Mountains. There are animals there. Which should be especially obvious if you look at the encounter in the lower tiers - if there was no animal life there, there would be no encounter. (but you won't know that unless you read the mod, you have to trust the DM to run it correctly). You are blaming the author for a Judge error. It is a common thing to do, but I would recommend always ordering and reading the mod before criticizing it. The discrepancies between how a table was run and what the mod said are often quite significant.
Samwise 11-23-05, 04:25 PM	At the beginning of the mod, before play, the DM can say "there will be a problem with large animal companions. You may want to pick a smaller one before we begin." That is covered under Judge instructions for running an RPGA table, which says something like "look at the table and try to adjust the adventure for the party". He had the ability to do this. The Judge chose instead to be inflexible. I am (mostly) with solbergb on this. While I might forget to ask about a druid, I will cross-check such things, and give a "subtle" hint ("Gee, are you sure that would be welcome in some big city somewhere?") if the adventure has a "size limit" for critters. However I am less than understanding when players refuse to accept their critter might be too large, and insist on pushing forward with some oversized monstrosity. And sometimes players simply choose to forgo a companion rather than make a backup. (Or better yet, having one ready.)