The circle members are racist? [Archive] - Wizards Community

The circle members are racist? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Demoyn
08-04-07, 01:12 AM What other possible explanation is there for not having any demi-human diety affiliations in all of Greyhawk?
bitznarf
08-04-07, 01:22 AM Possibly that Greyhawk is mostly dominated by humans? And that the majority of PCs are humans. So they are providing the most PCs with options. Or any number of other reasonable reasons, unlike baseless accusations of racism.
Eric Anondson
08-04-07, 01:40 AM What other possible explanation is there for not having any demi-human diety affiliations in all of Greyhawk?You mean the Circle should just alter the history and canon of the city for some stupid sense of "fairness". Demihumans have never had a significant presence or roel in the affairs of the city of Greyhawk beyond individuals. Unless you are saying Gary Gygax was a racist and the Circle is just perpetuating it by holding to the integrity of the setting they were given?
Demoyn
08-04-07, 02:16 AM In all of Greyhawk, the largest city in Oerth, there are no temples to any non-human diety?
Zanzibax
08-04-07, 06:14 AM In all of Greyhawk, the largest city in Oerth, there are no temples to any non-human diety?

Take it underground with the rest of Tharizdun's spawn.
Eric Anondson
08-04-07, 08:27 AM In all of Greyhawk, the largest city in Oerth, there are no temples to any non-human diety?Just because there is a tiny shrine in a corner of a falling-down warehouse doesn't mean that rises to the importance worthy of an affiliation that plays a role in the course of events. Nor should they make one up.
Mommy was an Orc
08-04-07, 09:43 AM In all of Greyhawk, the largest city in Oerth, there are no temples to any non-human diety?

There are roughly as many humanoids in Greyhawk as there are demihumans...which is to say, not a lot. In the Greyhawk Gazette, they're listed as 'some' - which means less than 1000.
RedKnightofKet
08-04-07, 10:24 AM So, um, how long will it take for this topic to get taken down? Rather controversial title, no?

And I have to agree with a lot of the posters here - just because they don't have affiliations doesn't mean they aren't there (wow...too many negatives in that sentence...) It's likely that those temples are simply not politically moving forces.
_metz_
08-04-07, 10:39 AM What other possible explanation is there for not having any demi-human diety affiliations in all of Greyhawk?

Its speciest really :) And considering they just gave us Kobold cards, that's a really odd thing to say.

(My poor Dwarf gets picked on cos of his appearance and cultural idiosyncrasies all the time, just cos he doesn't act the the other dwarves in his region! darn you circle and your prejudiced ways! Its not about how red your hair is! Ginger nuts are dwarves too!!!) </sarcasm>

And if you knew about Greyhawk and demonstrated reasoning behind your arguement, then maybe you would be qualified to make such a statement. But as you have said something grossly misinformed/with no supportive references, then I guess your opinion doesn't matter.
Simpi
08-04-07, 10:50 AM This reminds me of that thread long ago where someone was offended by the existence of openly racist nation named Scarlet Brotherhood and wanted Circle to write a special adventure where their entire empire would fall during the course of a single adventure :D

Sampo Haarlaa
Naerie Triad
Puggle Halfwine
08-04-07, 11:55 AM ALL HAIL BRITT!
gomeztoo
08-04-07, 03:38 PM This reminds me of that thread long ago where someone was offended by the existence of openly racist nation named Scarlet Brotherhood and wanted Circle to write a special adventure where their entire empire would fall during the course of a single adventure :D

Isn't that Bridge over Svartjet ;) ?
ezreal2001
08-04-07, 08:16 PM Isn't that Bridge over Svartjet ;) ?
Wait isn't that due for iminant release:D
UMiskatonic
08-05-07, 11:57 AM Yeah! And did anyone notice that the entire Circle is composed of humans? How fair is that? Their historical oppression of imaginary,....made-up,....not-real....

Umm,

Oh, I'm so embarrassed.

Seriously, I can't believe this is a post.
Zanzibax
08-05-07, 01:20 PM This reminds me of that thread long ago where someone was offended by the existence of openly racist nation named Scarlet Brotherhood and wanted Circle to write a special adventure where their entire empire would fall during the course of a single adventure :D

Sampo Haarlaa
Naerie Triad

Are we allowed to be offended and outraged by the destructive Political Correctness that has driven this type of behavior, and apparently caused this thread to exist?
NiTessine
08-05-07, 03:32 PM Are we allowed to be offended and outraged by the destructive Political Correctness that has driven this type of behavior, and apparently caused this thread to exist?

That takes too much energy that can be used much more constructively. Just tell them "no" and go do something productive.
Simpi
08-05-07, 03:42 PM Are we allowed to be offended and outraged by the destructive Political Correctness that has driven this type of behavior, and apparently caused this thread to exist?

Why ask me for permission? Do I have some kind of reputation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vP0HHX4Ur9g) in these matters :D

Sampo Haarlaa
Naerie Triad
_metz_
08-05-07, 10:47 PM Are we allowed to be offended and outraged by the destructive Political Correctness that has driven this type of behavior, and apparently caused this thread to exist?

Fortunately we Australians are behind the PC trend, but we are catching up to the US etc, which is frustrating.
Zanzibax
08-05-07, 11:25 PM Fortunately we Australians are behind the PC trend, but we are catching up to the US etc, which is frustrating.

Destroy the attempts with lots of loud ridicule at every opportunity.
LGMoses
08-06-07, 02:15 AM because Temples to Gruumsh aren't generally accepted, Corellon Larethian prefers his temples out in the forest, and Dwarves generally prefer to have their worship places underground.... along with the rest of their society. Go figure.
Demoyn
08-06-07, 10:46 AM There are 20 religious affiliations in Greyhawk, with a human population of 126,400. Let's say for the sake of argument that the people split religions evenly (which is next to impossible). That means that each religious affiliation would have 6,320 members.

Demi-humans typically have a vast majority of their race worship the racial head diety, so let's just assume a 90% rate of worshipping the head diety. This means that there would be 12,960 halflings worshipping Yondalla, and 7,200 gnomes worshipping Garl Glittergold. Both dieties obviously have more worshippers in the area than the human dieties with lower prestige.

Even Corellon, using this formula, would have 4,320 worshippers, and Moradin 2,880. These numbers are lower than the evenly distributed human numbers, but those numbers, in reality, won't be evenly distributed. Obviously Ralishaz won't have nearly as many followers as St. Cuthbert or Pelor in practice, so it's very possible that these dieties have more argument for affiliation than the lower tier of human dieties also.
Zanzibax
08-06-07, 12:35 PM I think there are more Player character elven adventurers than Corellon worshippers.
Eric Anondson
08-06-07, 02:05 PM You assume Garl Glittergold has a monopoly on gnomes' worship. Or the Corellon does to elves. They do not. Heck, the demihuman pantheons don't even have a monopoly on their respective races.

Likewise, the population of the Domain of Greyhawk is not the population of the city of Greyhawk. The Domain of Greyhawk includes the halfling town of Elmshire. It includes the dwarven enclave of Greysmere. It includes the gnome settlement of Grossetgrottel. None of them are close to the city of Greyhawk where it appears the mini-arc is based in.

Lastly, religions don't have monopolies on their followers so segregating them exclusively to one faith doesn't work. Most faiths play a role above their numbers of followers purely based on the dieties portfolio, like Ralishaz. The commoners tithes to Ralishaz to ensure bad luck doesn't follow them, they don't worship Ralishaz to ensure it.

So your argument is based on flawed assumptions when you look at the truth behind the numbers you grabbed.
Demoyn
08-06-07, 02:45 PM You are correct in your statement, but you leave out a very important part. The city of Greyhawk itself only has slightly over 69,000 total people. Humans in the previous message 126,400. Now obviously a major halfling city is going to skew the halfling numbers a bit, but for the most part it all reduces down to be the same scenario.
Samwise
08-06-07, 07:41 PM You are correct in your statement, but you leave out a very important part. The city of Greyhawk itself only has slightly over 69,000 total people. Humans in the previous message 126,400. Now obviously a major halfling city is going to skew the halfling numbers a bit, but for the most part it all reduces down to be the same scenario.

According to the LGG, Greyhawk has a population of 160,000, with 9% halflings, 5% gnomes, 3% elves, 2% dwarves, 1% half-elves, and 1% half-orcs.
That is 14,400 halfling, 8,000 gnomes, 4,800 elves, 3,200 dwarves, 1,600 half-elves, and 1,600 half-orcs.

According to FtA:
- the village of Elmshire has a population of about 4,000 halfling, with another 1,000 living in the Cairn Hills.
- there are 6,000 gnomes in the Cairn Hills, several hundred in the Abbor Alz, and a few hundred in the Gnarley forest.
- there are 1,200 dwarves in the Cairn Hills, and 1,500 in the Abbor Alz.
- there are about 1,000 elves in the Gnarley Forest that is part of the Domain, and another 1,500 in the Welkwood.

All of those numbers are 2nd ed, and the base numbers for all populations were considerably lower.
They also do not specify halfling numbers in the Plain of Greyhawk.

Overall though, adjusting for the rise in population, the majority of those populations, except perhaps for halflings, are actually accounted for in separate racial communities located outside the city, although within the Domain of Greyhawk itself.
And, even if they were fully integrated in every community, those populations are still so small as to not merit enough support a full affiliation.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Demoyn 08-04-07, 01:12 AM	What other possible explanation is there for not having any demi-human diety affiliations in all of Greyhawk?
bitznarf 08-04-07, 01:22 AM	Possibly that Greyhawk is mostly dominated by humans? And that the majority of PCs are humans. So they are providing the most PCs with options. Or any number of other reasonable reasons, unlike baseless accusations of racism.
Eric Anondson 08-04-07, 01:40 AM	What other possible explanation is there for not having any demi-human diety affiliations in all of Greyhawk?You mean the Circle should just alter the history and canon of the city for some stupid sense of "fairness". Demihumans have never had a significant presence or roel in the affairs of the city of Greyhawk beyond individuals. Unless you are saying Gary Gygax was a racist and the Circle is just perpetuating it by holding to the integrity of the setting they were given?
Demoyn 08-04-07, 02:16 AM	In all of Greyhawk, the largest city in Oerth, there are no temples to any non-human diety?
Zanzibax 08-04-07, 06:14 AM	In all of Greyhawk, the largest city in Oerth, there are no temples to any non-human diety? Take it underground with the rest of Tharizdun's spawn.
Eric Anondson 08-04-07, 08:27 AM	In all of Greyhawk, the largest city in Oerth, there are no temples to any non-human diety?Just because there is a tiny shrine in a corner of a falling-down warehouse doesn't mean that rises to the importance worthy of an affiliation that plays a role in the course of events. Nor should they make one up.
Mommy was an Orc 08-04-07, 09:43 AM	In all of Greyhawk, the largest city in Oerth, there are no temples to any non-human diety? There are roughly as many humanoids in Greyhawk as there are demihumans...which is to say, not a lot. In the Greyhawk Gazette, they're listed as 'some' - which means less than 1000.
RedKnightofKet 08-04-07, 10:24 AM	So, um, how long will it take for this topic to get taken down? Rather controversial title, no? And I have to agree with a lot of the posters here - just because they don't have affiliations doesn't mean they aren't there (wow...too many negatives in that sentence...) It's likely that those temples are simply not politically moving forces.
_metz_ 08-04-07, 10:39 AM	What other possible explanation is there for not having any demi-human diety affiliations in all of Greyhawk? Its speciest really :) And considering they just gave us Kobold cards, that's a really odd thing to say. (My poor Dwarf gets picked on cos of his appearance and cultural idiosyncrasies all the time, just cos he doesn't act the the other dwarves in his region! darn you circle and your prejudiced ways! Its not about how red your hair is! Ginger nuts are dwarves too!!!) </sarcasm> And if you knew about Greyhawk and demonstrated reasoning behind your arguement, then maybe you would be qualified to make such a statement. But as you have said something grossly misinformed/with no supportive references, then I guess your opinion doesn't matter.
Simpi 08-04-07, 10:50 AM	This reminds me of that thread long ago where someone was offended by the existence of openly racist nation named Scarlet Brotherhood and wanted Circle to write a special adventure where their entire empire would fall during the course of a single adventure :D Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
Puggle Halfwine 08-04-07, 11:55 AM	ALL HAIL BRITT!
gomeztoo 08-04-07, 03:38 PM	This reminds me of that thread long ago where someone was offended by the existence of openly racist nation named Scarlet Brotherhood and wanted Circle to write a special adventure where their entire empire would fall during the course of a single adventure :D Isn't that Bridge over Svartjet ;) ?
ezreal2001 08-04-07, 08:16 PM	Isn't that Bridge over Svartjet ;) ? Wait isn't that due for iminant release:D
UMiskatonic 08-05-07, 11:57 AM	Yeah! And did anyone notice that the entire Circle is composed of humans? How fair is that? Their historical oppression of imaginary,....made-up,....not-real.... Umm, Oh, I'm so embarrassed. Seriously, I can't believe this is a post.
Zanzibax 08-05-07, 01:20 PM	This reminds me of that thread long ago where someone was offended by the existence of openly racist nation named Scarlet Brotherhood and wanted Circle to write a special adventure where their entire empire would fall during the course of a single adventure :D Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad Are we allowed to be offended and outraged by the destructive Political Correctness that has driven this type of behavior, and apparently caused this thread to exist?
NiTessine 08-05-07, 03:32 PM	Are we allowed to be offended and outraged by the destructive Political Correctness that has driven this type of behavior, and apparently caused this thread to exist? That takes too much energy that can be used much more constructively. Just tell them "no" and go do something productive.
Simpi 08-05-07, 03:42 PM	Are we allowed to be offended and outraged by the destructive Political Correctness that has driven this type of behavior, and apparently caused this thread to exist? Why ask me for permission? Do I have some kind of reputation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vP0HHX4Ur9g) in these matters :D Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
_metz_ 08-05-07, 10:47 PM	Are we allowed to be offended and outraged by the destructive Political Correctness that has driven this type of behavior, and apparently caused this thread to exist? Fortunately we Australians are behind the PC trend, but we are catching up to the US etc, which is frustrating.
Zanzibax 08-05-07, 11:25 PM	Fortunately we Australians are behind the PC trend, but we are catching up to the US etc, which is frustrating. Destroy the attempts with lots of loud ridicule at every opportunity.
LGMoses 08-06-07, 02:15 AM	because Temples to Gruumsh aren't generally accepted, Corellon Larethian prefers his temples out in the forest, and Dwarves generally prefer to have their worship places underground.... along with the rest of their society. Go figure.
Demoyn 08-06-07, 10:46 AM	There are 20 religious affiliations in Greyhawk, with a human population of 126,400. Let's say for the sake of argument that the people split religions evenly (which is next to impossible). That means that each religious affiliation would have 6,320 members. Demi-humans typically have a vast majority of their race worship the racial head diety, so let's just assume a 90% rate of worshipping the head diety. This means that there would be 12,960 halflings worshipping Yondalla, and 7,200 gnomes worshipping Garl Glittergold. Both dieties obviously have more worshippers in the area than the human dieties with lower prestige. Even Corellon, using this formula, would have 4,320 worshippers, and Moradin 2,880. These numbers are lower than the evenly distributed human numbers, but those numbers, in reality, won't be evenly distributed. Obviously Ralishaz won't have nearly as many followers as St. Cuthbert or Pelor in practice, so it's very possible that these dieties have more argument for affiliation than the lower tier of human dieties also.
Zanzibax 08-06-07, 12:35 PM	I think there are more Player character elven adventurers than Corellon worshippers.
Eric Anondson 08-06-07, 02:05 PM	You assume Garl Glittergold has a monopoly on gnomes' worship. Or the Corellon does to elves. They do not. Heck, the demihuman pantheons don't even have a monopoly on their respective races. Likewise, the population of the Domain of Greyhawk is not the population of the city of Greyhawk. The Domain of Greyhawk includes the halfling town of Elmshire. It includes the dwarven enclave of Greysmere. It includes the gnome settlement of Grossetgrottel. None of them are close to the city of Greyhawk where it appears the mini-arc is based in. Lastly, religions don't have monopolies on their followers so segregating them exclusively to one faith doesn't work. Most faiths play a role above their numbers of followers purely based on the dieties portfolio, like Ralishaz. The commoners tithes to Ralishaz to ensure bad luck doesn't follow them, they don't worship Ralishaz to ensure it. So your argument is based on flawed assumptions when you look at the truth behind the numbers you grabbed.
Demoyn 08-06-07, 02:45 PM	You are correct in your statement, but you leave out a very important part. The city of Greyhawk itself only has slightly over 69,000 total people. Humans in the previous message 126,400. Now obviously a major halfling city is going to skew the halfling numbers a bit, but for the most part it all reduces down to be the same scenario.
Samwise 08-06-07, 07:41 PM	You are correct in your statement, but you leave out a very important part. The city of Greyhawk itself only has slightly over 69,000 total people. Humans in the previous message 126,400. Now obviously a major halfling city is going to skew the halfling numbers a bit, but for the most part it all reduces down to be the same scenario. According to the LGG, Greyhawk has a population of 160,000, with 9% halflings, 5% gnomes, 3% elves, 2% dwarves, 1% half-elves, and 1% half-orcs. That is 14,400 halfling, 8,000 gnomes, 4,800 elves, 3,200 dwarves, 1,600 half-elves, and 1,600 half-orcs. According to FtA: - the village of Elmshire has a population of about 4,000 halfling, with another 1,000 living in the Cairn Hills. - there are 6,000 gnomes in the Cairn Hills, several hundred in the Abbor Alz, and a few hundred in the Gnarley forest. - there are 1,200 dwarves in the Cairn Hills, and 1,500 in the Abbor Alz. - there are about 1,000 elves in the Gnarley Forest that is part of the Domain, and another 1,500 in the Welkwood. All of those numbers are 2nd ed, and the base numbers for all populations were considerably lower. They also do not specify halfling numbers in the Plain of Greyhawk. Overall though, adjusting for the rise in population, the majority of those populations, except perhaps for halflings, are actually accounted for in separate racial communities located outside the city, although within the Domain of Greyhawk itself. And, even if they were fully integrated in every community, those populations are still so small as to not merit enough support a full affiliation.