Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rockondon 01-23-07, 08:29 PM	I've read some neat tactics on this board, such as using a tanglefoot bag to incapacitate flying creatures, a tanglefoot bag with silence cast on it to suppress enemy spellcasters, grease on the enemy to make him flat-footed so the thief in the party gets sneak attack, etc. Last night my cleric cast resist energy mass on the party when we were swarmed by about 30 baddies, and the sorc in the party fireballed us - doing a handful of damage to us and a total of around 600 damage to them. I'm just curious what cool tactics you guys use or have seen used. If you steamrolled over some uber-tough encounter because of good tactics, tell us about it. If the members in your party work together to create a really effective attack, lets hear it. If you know an easy way to kill monster XXX by using YYY, let us know. Your tactics don't have to be brilliant, they just have to be effective. --Don
Crazy Boro 01-23-07, 08:40 PM	Last night my cleric cast resist energy mass on the party when we were swarmed by about 30 baddies, and the sorc in the party fireballed us - doing a handful of damage to us and a total of around 600 damage to them. --Don In Living Greyhawk? Resist Energy, Mass is a restricted spell in the LGCS.
rockondon 01-23-07, 09:46 PM	Goddammit! Every time I open my mouth around here I'm breaking some rule :rant:
DarkKnight 01-23-07, 09:46 PM	Yet Energy Immunity isn't even Limited... Weird huh?
Crazy Boro 01-23-07, 10:06 PM	Goddammit! Every time I open my mouth around here I'm breaking some rule :rant: You're not the only one. I almost used it for an entire con with my cohort back at the beginning of '06 and only got stopped since someone else told me in the 1st slot when I was prepping spells. I hadn't realized it since I hadn't looked over the new restricted list for the year. That, and the cohort was my only sort of divine caster and I was still new to the whole buffing cleric stuff. Topic-wise: I can't think of much right now, but I'll look through some of my AR's and see if they ring any bells with the adventures. At the moment I can think of only 2 things: 1.) Silence on an arrow is nice for the archer. 2.) With a Dragon Disciple of mine, I've had fun chomping down on the enemies' holy symbols. Disarm with whip as standard action and then pick up the holy symbol off the ground as move-equiv. Next round I just PA for full and take a big ol' bite out of it. Mainly only used when the situation is fairly under control and it looks like there isn't going to be any major problems by taking the time to do it. It was very fun if the DM roleplays it as some baddies are very surprised to see someone do that kind of tactic. It's been highly effective at times though since some clerics never carry spares. :D
Crazy Boro 01-24-07, 01:13 AM	Here's another fun trick. Lots of explosive runes. Put them on all sorts of things that can be tossed at or shot at the baddies. Prep a bunch of items with them while traveling so you are ready and make sure to distribute them. (Make sure its a decently high caster for best results.) You then use an area dispel from a scroll of dispel magic (5th CL). Most likely the dispel will fail on most of them (and all of them if done at CL 15+). When the dispel magic fails, it sets off all the runes it failed against. Anyone close enough to read them takes the full 6d6 force damage as they get no save. (Expect variation though for what you can get the runes written on for use as I've met some DM's who won't allow them written on some items.) Gives lots of fun booms if you can pull it off. ;)
rockondon 01-24-07, 01:35 AM	Here's another fun trick. Lots of explosive runes. Put them on all sorts of things that can be tossed at or shot at the baddies. Prep a bunch of items with them while traveling so you are ready and make sure to distribute them. (Make sure its a decently high caster for best results.) You then use an area dispel from a scroll of dispel magic (5th CL). Most likely the dispel will fail on most of them (and all of them if done at CL 15+). When the dispel magic fails, it sets off all the runes it failed against. Anyone close enough to read them takes the full 6d6 force damage as they get no save. (Expect variation though for what you can get the runes written on for use as I've met some DM's who won't allow them written on some items.) Gives lots of fun booms if you can pull it off. ;) I did something similar in 3.0 once - the DM said I couldn't do stuff like that with the glyph of warding so I used fire trap on things instead. The best way involved hollow-tip arrows - I filled them with oil then cast fire trap on them. They open (shatter) on impact so....boom. Hey how about fire trap on a tanglefoot bag, would that work? The fire trap goes off if someone other than you "opens" it - perhaps you gotta give it to your buddy to throw it. If kicking open a fire trapped door sets off the spell I would think that a bursting tanglefoot bag should as well. Or perhaps you could have a bag full of little containers with fire trap cast on each of them, place it where you want, stand back 100ft+ then cast knock on one of them. That one should detonate the rest. It'd be like a druid's fireball ;)
Madfox11 01-24-07, 07:38 AM	Yet Energy Immunity isn't even Limited... Weird huh? Not really. It is a question of the level of the spell. Mass resist energy is 3rd level for druids if I remember correctly so with 4 spells you protect the whole team against all energy types. Energy Immunity is 6th level if I remember correctly, and you need 20 to cover the whole team. You then use an area dispel from a scroll of dispel magic (5th CL). Most likely the dispel will fail on most of them (and all of them if done at CL 15+). Actually, you cast the spell even if you do so from the scroll, so the explosive runes you are created are dispelled automatically without an explosion. Granted, that can be easily solved by letting somebody else cast the dispel magic. Personally though I would give all those within the area a save unless they are actually trying to read the objects. I am also not very sure whether a DM would let somebody be affected by more than one of the runes, although that might fishy. Than again, the whole tactic is fishy in the first place ;) Note: you cannot make up your own equipment in LG. If you don't have access to true hollow tipped arrows, you cannot just make them. Also note that if a hollow tip of an arrow would actually contain enough oil for any effective use I doubt the arrow would come very far...
Sieylianna 01-24-07, 07:55 AM	One thing which my druid has used to good effect is to catch as many of the bad guys as possible in a wall of thorns and then send her buffed (animal growth + freedom of movement) advanced tiger in to mop up. Ed
Mortepierre 01-24-07, 08:24 AM	Team tactics? Aaaah, so many memories... My regular team includes a wizard, a cleric, a ranger, and a druidess, so we have access to a lot of weird spell combo. A few then, a) Once, we had to take down a bandit leader. We knew that he was a powerful opponent and, if allowed to lead his men in battle, would likely mop the floor with us. So, when we arrived at the entrance of his keep, one of us charmed the sentry and gave him a sealed scroll for his boss, pretending it was a proposal for the surrender of a local town. The guard went straight to the leader's office (incidentally leaving the entrance open to us, since we had convinced him we would guard it for him while he was away) and delivered the scroll. When the leader read it, he triggered a Sepia Snake Sigil. This gave us the opportunity to fight his (now leaderless) men without having to worry about running into him. Incidentally, I routinely carry such a sealed scroll on me in a scroll case with the mention "list of the command words for magic items of the team" on it. Once, we were captured and the enemy's leader read it. I was able to bargain our release for his :) b) Another group of enemies had stopped for the night and prepared a camp inside of ring of chariots. Some of us came as close as we could. One was carrying a bullet with silence on it. When we were ready, the slinger sent the bullet into the camp and then the rest of us cast Entangle, Web (chariots = good anchor points), and Stinking Cloud in rapid succession. Those baddies which managed to escape our crowd-control spells had the pleasure of meeting our (raging) melee fighters who were waiting for them. Those who were immobilized were easy picking for our hasted archer (not to mention the call lightning our druidess was having fun with). I sincerely pity their spellcaster who was entangled, webbed, silenced AND vomiting the whole time! :D c) When exploring dark places where we suspect an ambush is waiting for us, dancing light is cast and the four "torches" sent ahead of us to draw enemy fire. Doesn't work with darkvision-using baddies but it has worked often enough till now to make us continue relying on it. d) Against a corridor where incorporeal undeads (like the oh-so-mandatory dread wraith) use hit-and-run tactics to make our life a living hell, nothing beats a transdimensional web (transdimensional spell is a metamagic feat from Complete Arcane) to catch a few "flies"...
copper_wyrmling 01-24-07, 08:30 AM	Some spell combos: - Fire Seeds + Resist Energy / Energy Immunity - cast the holly-berry-bombs version of Fire Seeds, give all eight berries to someone with a good reflex save and / or fire resistance who's planning to be in melee with the bad guys. Once that PC runs into melee, speak the command word and watch the explosions (in particular, it works nicely on cadaver collectors, and it's just funny when you hit a giant advanced mummy with the berry bombs). - Split Ray Enervation + Dismissal / Holy Word (or to a lesser degree any save-dependent spell) - negative levels lower both saving throws and effective HD. - Teleport + Featherfall - mostly a sorcerer trick when you have Teleport but not Mass Fly, but it sometimes works better than Mass Fly when what you want is to get all the squishies away from the big nasty melee/grapple monsters fast. Of course, Teleport + Mass Fly is the best of both worlds, but that takes more actions and spell power. Teleport / D-Door are generally very nice spells, and having two people capable of casting them in the same party lets you do fast and almost risk-free rescue missions (PC 2 delays for PC 1; PC 1 teleports themselves and PC 2 next to the rescue target; PC 2 comes out of delay, grabs the target and teleports themselves, the target and PC 1 to safety). I've seen this used once to prevent a PC death (fighter was on 2 HP and grappled after charging a gargantuan monster), and once to rescue an important NPC. Tricks with familiars: - Cast antimagic field on your familiar and have them run around as a mobile AMF (works best if your familiar is sneaky or the enemies have no decent melee attacks). - Share Dragon's Breath with your familiar so you can both use the breath weapon. Silence tricks (these are pretty standard, but worth noting): - Ready an action to cast Silence next to a spellcaster when they attempt to cast a spell. - To shut down casters in the longer term, drop both Evard's Black Tentacles and Silence on them, ideally casting one immediately after the other (usually one of the casters delays for the other). You can also do this by casting Silence on a grapple-focused PC.
Bob_the_Theurge 01-24-07, 12:28 PM	1.) Silence on an arrow is nice for the archer. It would be if it worked. Unfortunately, the Rules As Written state that ammunition is destroyed when hit (and in LG, destroyed when fired whether it hits or not) which invalidates the Silence spell. 2.) With a Dragon Disciple of mine, I've had fun chomping down on the enemies' holy symbols. Disarm with whip as standard action and then pick up the holy symbol off the ground as move-equiv. Next round I just PA for full and take a big ol' bite out of it. Mainly only used when the situation is fairly under control and it looks like there isn't going to be any major problems by taking the time to do it. It was very fun if the DM roleplays it as some baddies are very surprised to see someone do that kind of tactic. It's been highly effective at times though since some clerics never carry spares. :D Now THAT is a legal tactic.
rockondon 01-24-07, 12:30 PM	Note: you cannot make up your own equipment in LG. If you don't have access to true hollow tipped arrows, you cannot just make them. I wasn't suggesting I wanted to bring hollow-tip arrows into LG, I was suggesting to cast fire trap on a tanglefoot bag.
Bob_the_Theurge 01-24-07, 12:36 PM	Actually, you cast the spell even if you do so from the scroll, so the explosive runes you are created are dispelled automatically without an explosion. Granted, that can be easily solved by letting somebody else cast the dispel magic. Personally though I would give all those within the area a save unless they are actually trying to read the objects. I am also not very sure whether a DM would let somebody be affected by more than one of the runes, although that might fishy. Than again, the whole tactic is fishy in the first place ;) Cheesy? Yes. Fishy? No, not really. Remember that you can't "cast" spells prior to a module (though most modules have a "you all met up and traveled together a couple days" setup to allow in-character reasons for the party to work together and coordination of spells etc). As a DM, if the module allows for days of travel between an adventure, I'm legally obligated to allow them (by the rules) to cast the spell during those days. If it's combat on the first day, or if they're casting those spells every day, I'm going to make sure they mark off the slots on their spell list, but beyond that, if I try to prohibit the tactic any further then I'm breaking the rules myself. :( And just like two Fireballs cast "simultaneously" (with the cooperative spell feat for example) still damage each critter in their radius individually, the same has to be true for multiple Explosive Runes that are being set off by a failed Dispel attempt. If you were the DM at the table, and tried to say "no, you can't do that", I'm sorry to say I'd be breaking out the rulebook and calling over the senior GM for the event, and if the senior GM were to try to prohibit it, that'd be worth reporting to the Triad. Much as you might like to prohibit it at a home campaign, trying to prohibit it on an LG table is outside your authority.
Fleetfang 01-24-07, 12:42 PM	In one wave of a battle interactive, we faced a skeletal hydra. Or it might've been some other big bad thing with tons of attacks and a pile of hit points. The mage next to me pulled out a scroll of Command Undead. No save for mindless undead, no matter how many hit dice they have. So for the rest of the battle, we had this huge skeleton taking our front line positions. I think the mage got an 'evil act' marked on his AR, but he was all too happy to take it. On an unrelated note, there are few scouts that can do recon better than a wildshaped Druid.
Bob_the_Theurge 01-24-07, 12:55 PM	In one wave of a battle interactive, we faced a skeletal hydra. Or it might've been some other big bad thing with tons of attacks and a pile of hit points. The mage next to me pulled out a scroll of Command Undead. No save for mindless undead, no matter how many hit dice they have. So for the rest of the battle, we had this huge skeleton taking our front line positions. I think the mage got an 'evil act' marked on his AR, but he was all too happy to take it. Check that AR, and if there's actually an "Evil Act" marked on it, question that with your local Triad and have it removed. Command Undead may be a Necromancy spell but even after all the BS we've been handed about how "evil descriptor" spells are an "evil act" rather than simply being something Good deities won't allow you to cast (which would make more sense, since chaotic-descriptor spells aren't a "chaotic act", law descriptor spells aren't a "lawful act", and good descriptor spells aren't a "good act" as such), Command Undead doesn't have the Evil descriptor anyways.
Britt 01-24-07, 01:06 PM	Command Undead may be a Necromancy spell but even after all the BS we've been handed about how "evil descriptor" spells are an "evil act" rather than simply being something Good deities won't allow you to cast (which would make more sense, since chaotic-descriptor spells aren't a "chaotic act", law descriptor spells aren't a "lawful act", and good descriptor spells aren't a "good act" as such), Command Undead doesn't have the Evil descriptor anyways. Could you knock it off with the useless snipes about this? It's really getting old. And yes, casting [Good] spells would be a good act, casting [Law] spells would be a lawful act, and casting [Chaos] spells would be a chaotic act. It's just that those topics don't come up as arguments at tables and, therefore, don't need clarification in the LGCS or DC.
Crazy Boro 01-24-07, 01:24 PM	I thought of another silence spell-use w/o the arrow bit. This one is also meaner (if the 1st would've worked) in my opinion. Casting silence on a harpoon from Stormwrack is fun. I bought one awhile back with one of my pc's and the thing could be nasty. Toss it at the caster and they have to make a ref save DC 10+ damage dealt if hit. They fail, they're harpooned and you have the trailing end of the harpoon's line. You can then make opposed str checks with the caster to bring them closer. That way they are both silenced and on the end of your fishing line. :D
Cardinal Teplin 01-24-07, 01:35 PM	Note: you cannot make up your own equipment in LG. If you don't have access to true hollow tipped arrows, you cannot just make them. Also note that if a hollow tip of an arrow would actually contain enough oil for any effective use I doubt the arrow would come very far... Sure you can. No rule prohibits making up your own equipment. You can't buy it, or start with it, but there is nothing to stop you making your own custom gear during an adventure. As for combat tactics - Druid turns into a tree or treant, and the other characters climb aboard. You then buff the druid to billy-o and most monsters won't be able to even reach the other characters... Useful when the druid is your only 'meat sheild'... I wasn't sure the antimagic feild tactic still worked... There isn't anything that allows you to cast a spell so that it emenates from your familiar rather than yourself, and antimagic feild always emenates from the caster.
Bob_the_Theurge 01-24-07, 01:55 PM	Could you knock it off with the useless snipes about this? It's really getting old. And yes, casting [Good] spells would be a good act, casting [Law] spells would be a lawful act, and casting [Chaos] spells would be a chaotic act. It's just that those topics don't come up as arguments at tables and, therefore, don't need clarification in the LGCS or DC. If casting a [Good] descriptor spell counts as a Good act and all the others vice versa, but you're only going to attack people for being Neutral and casting Evil-descriptor spells and require judges to write them up for doing it, then LG's system for tracking alignment is hopelessly screwed up anyways and needs fixing. When every time someone wants to cast a spell that is perfectly in-character to cast and legal for the character to cast by the rules, we get a DM threatening a writeup (or worse yet, some fool DM who doesn't know what he's doing threatening to yank the character for an Evil Act), we have a problem, and the Dispel Confusion didn't help anything at all, if anything it made the problem worse.
Britt 01-24-07, 02:08 PM	If casting a [Good] descriptor spell counts as a Good act and all the others vice versa, but you're only going to attack people for being Neutral and casting Evil-descriptor spells and require judges to write them up for doing it, then LG's system for tracking alignment is hopelessly screwed up anyways and needs fixing. When every time someone wants to cast a spell that is perfectly in-character to cast and legal for the character to cast by the rules, we get a DM threatening a writeup (or worse yet, some fool DM who doesn't know what he's doing threatening to yank the character for an Evil Act), we have a problem, and the Dispel Confusion didn't help anything at all, if anything it made the problem worse. Explaining this for the last time, especially since this is off-topic for this thread: The only banned alignment is Evil. You can be good all you want, so we don't really need to worry about people becoming good, lawful, or chaotic. It's not something the administration needs to concern itself with. Anytime a DM marks an evil act, they should note the circumstances around the act, which may include countermanding good acts. If you have a better way of tracking whether a character has become evil, feel free to share it, rather than uselessly complaining about something repeatedly. Whether you like it, evil alignments are forbidden in LG. Evil acts are very important to whether you become evil, far more important than any other type of act. We have to have some way of determining if characters have become evil, it's too erratic to leave it in DM hands, and you need to know what has transpired to know if a character has become evil. Having the Triad track evil acts is the only viable solution.
jstorrie 01-24-07, 02:16 PM	You're misunderstanding the Evil Act rules, Bob_the_Theurge. DMs don't yank characters for Evil Acts, they just mark them down on ARs and contact the regional Triad if too many are popping up. If you've got a half-dozen Evil Acts in the last 10 ARs, the Triad may get in touch to ask for your character's justification, that's all. Unless the PC is actually being consistently and severely evil, he's not going to get yanked by anyone.
Mommy was an Orc 01-24-07, 02:23 PM	Guys...this would have made a very nice link from the Compilation...
Britt 01-24-07, 02:28 PM	One tactic I had was to carry many scrolls of Inflict Minor Wounds with my UMD rogue. Anytime we were up against something that had a high armor-based AC, I could UMD the scroll and deliver sneak attack damage with a touch attack. I kept looking for some spell that was 0 or 1st level, melee touch attack, with no SR, but I couldn't find anything good :(
trollbill 01-24-07, 02:44 PM	One tactic I had was to carry many scrolls of Inflict Minor Wounds with my UMD rogue. Anytime we were up against something that had a high armor-based AC, I could UMD the scroll and deliver sneak attack damage with a touch attack. I kept looking for some spell that was 0 or 1st level, melee touch attack, with no SR, but I couldn't find anything good :( You need a Wand of Acid Splash.
Britt 01-24-07, 02:47 PM	Except I wanted a melee touch attack so I could smite evil and Devoted Inquisitor daze them as well. Of course, I have since found out that I couldn't use inflict minor wounds since it is an evil act :(
Japangirl 01-24-07, 02:52 PM	Except I wanted a melee touch attack so I could smite evil and Devoted Inquisitor daze them as well. Of course, I have since found out that I couldn't use inflict minor wounds since it is an evil act :( How is that an evil act? Inflict spells aren't [Evil], I checked! If they were, evil clerics couldn't cast healing spells because those would be [Good] spells (to counterbalance [Evil] inflicts) and they'd eventually become neutral or even good if they kept it up. LN clerics of Wee Jas spontaneously inflict, and they're allowed! So please, o Circle member, tell me why inflict spells are evil acts.
Britt 01-24-07, 02:54 PM	How is that an evil act? Inflict spells aren't [Evil], I checked! If they were, evil clerics couldn't cast healing spells because those would be [Good] spells (to counterbalance [Evil] inflicts) and they'd eventually become neutral or even good if they kept it up. LN clerics of Wee Jas spontaneously inflict, and they're allowed! So please, o Circle member, tell me why inflict spells are evil acts. Because the spell specifically says you channel negative energy and the PH specifically says that channeling negative energy is an evil act. Spontaneously casting inflicts and rebuking undead has always been considered evil, as that clearly falls under the channeling negative energy clause; I just didn't know that the spells had that text in them. As I keep having to point out, evil acts are allowed in the campaign, so there's no reason LN clerics of Wee Jas being allowed has anything to do with inflict spells being evil.
Mommy was an Orc 01-24-07, 03:13 PM	I think the most important tactic is prep. One of the things I do is make a tent, with a character description, picture, RPGA number in front, and on back, a list of commonly used tactics and things to do. As an example, I've got a Monk 2/Sorc 1/Paladin 2 who constantly casts Fist of Stone in combat. Almost religiously. Then grapples. But this means I often forget about my Smite or Stunning Fist(DC 10) attacks for when I run into things I can't grapple - sure, most things are going to blow by that Stunning Fist, but things will fail their saves against it once in every blue moon. So I list them on the back of the sheet.
Britt 01-24-07, 03:20 PM	That's a good idea, Mommy. I know I have characters with abilities I commonly forget. Having them on the back of my name tents would help a lot.
Mommy was an Orc 01-24-07, 03:21 PM	If anyone has Adobe InDesign, pm me and I'll send you a copy.
LachlarlanIII 01-24-07, 03:49 PM	That's a good idea, Mommy. I know I have characters with abilities I commonly forget. Having them on the back of my name tents would help a lot. Heh, I have a half-orc Bbn/Ftr that can Smite once per adventure. In the 30 or so adventures he's been in since getting the ability, I've probably used it once. :rolleyes:
Reylance 01-24-07, 03:56 PM	1. Remember that you take attacks separately and always know the results of one attack before you take the rest. So if you're an archer dealing tons of damage, don't just add up all your damage, resolve attacks one at a time. Similarly, if you drop your foe with your first attack, you have a move-equivalent action left if desired. 2. At high levels, the wizard/travel cleric is often best off Dimension Door-ing the fighters into melee, so they can get their full attacks. 3. For the few levels between "wizards can't get out of grapples" and "wizards have Contingency active," if you grapple an enemy wizard, your wizard or travel cleric should consider readying to counterspell. The enemy may have only one escape spell prepared, say Dimension Door, and if you have it prepared too, you counter it automatically. 4. Pay attention to spells that are listed "[Spell1] counters and dispels [Spell2]." Carry a scroll of Slow, and you can automatically dispel the enemy group's Haste, no roll needed. 5. If you fight with a tripping/grappling animal companion, roll its attacks first, since if it trips/grapples, that makes your attacks easier. 6. With multiple iterative attacks, look if there's something you can resolve as a touch attack for your last attack. Punch-punch-punch-punch-trip. 7. At low levels, when you only have one attack anyway, ready to attack when you get a flank. That way, both you and your companion's attacks get +2. 8. Ready to interrupt the caster's spellcasting. 9. Remember that you target one square of a large creature, and only if that square is adjacent to an opposing target does the -4 penalty for firing into melee apply. 10. Evard's Black Tentacles + Stinking Cloud is pure evil. 11. Three people can maintain a constant flank on a medium target with five foot steps. Place A, B, and C at West, North, and East. A attacks, and five foot steps to South. B attacks, and five foot steps to West. C attacks, and five foot steps to North. Repeat until dead. 12. If you wear a spiked gauntlet, you always have a weapon if grappled.
Britt 01-24-07, 04:00 PM	4. Pay attention to spells that are listed "[Spell1] counters and dispels [Spell2]." Carry a scroll of Slow, and you can automatically dispel the enemy group's Haste, no roll needed. And ALWAYS carry a calm emotions either loaded or as a scroll. It cancels confusion.
Lomiat 01-24-07, 04:02 PM	I've thought of a lot of tactics / combos that I've wanted to try and seen some things that have worked well at tables. I'm not certain they'd all qualify as "combat tactics," but here are some: 1) Quicken Web, then cast Cloudkill. When creatures start to get out, drop a Wall of Force. 2) Played at a table where two wizards were willing to buff my tripper. He had Greater Enlarge Person (hour/lvl) and then Improved Invisibility, allowing him to use his Staggering Strike. With the 20 ft. reach of an enlarged guisarme, he made a nice wall for the rest of the party. Buffs are good. 3) Bad guys used something like 20 weasels to improve the Wild Mage's random deflector miss chance. 4) Dim Door the party to where the scout is performing recon at the outer edge of a message spell. Often gives your party the surprise round in combat. 5) Someone I know plays a cleric with DMM:Chain Spell. Apparently, in one mod, his party was approaching an enemy outpost, and he covered their approach by silencing the outpost--the WHOLE thing.
trollbill 01-24-07, 04:17 PM	6. With multiple iterative attacks, look if there's something you can resolve as a touch attack for your last attack. Punch-punch-punch-punch-trip. Except in this particular case, if you trip first you get +4 on the rest of the attacks. 9. Remember that you target one square of a large creature, and only if that square is adjacent to an opposing target does the -4 penalty for firing into melee apply. According to the SRD: If your target (or the part of your target you’re aiming at, if it’s a big target) is at least 10 feet away from the nearest friendly character, you can avoid the –4 penalty, even if the creature you’re aiming at is engaged in melee with a friendly character. "At least 10 feet" would mean having at least 2 squares between your ally and enemy target square. This would mean you could not use this trick against a large creature that was adjacent to one of your allies. 12. If you wear a spiked gauntlet, you always have a weapon if grappled. Or armor spikes.
Britt 01-24-07, 04:28 PM	"At least 10 feet" would mean having at least 2 squares between your ally and enemy target square. This would mean you could not use this trick against a large creature that was adjacent to one of your allies. "At least 10 feet" could mean that, not nessecarily would. More likely is that it means one square between the target square and the ally. 1. If you were to say "5 feet away", that would usually be interpreted as adjacent to, not two squares away. By extension, that would make 10 feet away two squares away. 2. Two squares away makes more spatial sense than three squares away. Compare the following two diagrams: eoo eeo ooo eeo ooa ooa In the left diagram, you have a medium sized enemy (e) and an ally (a); in the right diagram, you have a large sized enemy. If you were firing into the top left square, it does not make much sense to say that the left diagram imposes no penalty, while the right diagram does. Saying that "10 feet away" means one square between target square and ally makes the two situations consistent, where all that matters is the relation between target square and ally.
trollbill 01-24-07, 04:44 PM	"At least 10 feet" could mean that, not nessecarily would. More likely is that it means one square between the target square and the ally. 1. If you were to say "5 feet away", that would usually be interpreted as adjacent to, not two squares away. By extension, that would make 10 feet away two squares away. 2. Two squares away makes more spatial sense than three squares away. Compare the following two diagrams: eoo eeo ooo eeo ooa ooa In the left diagram, you have a medium sized enemy (e) and an ally (a); in the right diagram, you have a large sized enemy. If you were firing into the top left square, it does not make much sense to say that the left diagram imposes no penalty, while the right diagram does. Saying that "10 feet away" means one square between target square and ally makes the two situations consistent, where all that matters is the relation between target square and ally. If it didn't use the term, "At least," I would agree with you. But "At least" would mean you have to have 10-feet of space between X & Y. Also look up the word adjacent. By definition someone cannot be both adjacent and 5 feet away at the same time. As to the spatial orientation argument, if spacial orientation where what gave you the -4, then you would recieve this -4 simply for being adjacent, regardless of whether or not they are in melee. Obviously there is more to it than that, such as the fact the two are actively jockying for positions, thrusting, parrying, feinting, bobbing, weaving, etc. which would make it difficult to tell where to shoot.
Britt 01-24-07, 04:57 PM	If it didn't use the term, "At least," I would agree with you. But "At least" would mean you have to have 10-feet of space between X & Y. Also look up the word adjacent. By definition someone cannot be both adjacent and 5 feet away at the same time. As to the spatial orientation argument, if spacial orientation where what gave you the -4, then you would recieve this -4 simply for being adjacent, regardless of whether or not they are in melee. Obviously there is more to it than that, such as the fact the two are actively jockying for positions, thrusting, parrying, feinting, bobbing, weaving, etc. which would make it difficult to tell where to shoot. Actually, "at least" would mean that you have an infinitely close to, but less than 10-feet amount of distance between you and the creature (limit as distance approaches 10). As soon as you are at 10 feet, you are at the person, so there must be less than that amount of space between you and the creature. Similarly, if you can reach 10 feet with a weapon, you cannot reach into the third square away from you. At least 10 feet is inclusive of 10 feet, so if you have 10 foot reach you should be able to reach someone 10 feet away. If "at least 10 feet" meant the third square away, you could both reach the enemy and not reach the enemy. The third square away is actually the range of ("more than 10 feet" to "15 feet"). The -4 penalty comes from being in melee combat with an ally, so it must have something to do with avoiding hitting your ally. Otherwise, it would just say in melee combat and two of your enemies fighting each other would incur the same penalty as an enemy and an ally fighting each other. If it has to do with avoiding hitting your ally, your ally is obviously not ducking, bobbing, and weaving into two squares away, so it doesn't make sense that you would be trying to avoid hitting an ally that is more than 5 feet away from what you are shooting at. Given the oddities and inconsistencies, I think it makes far more sense to say that the text is poorly phrased and it actually means "more than 5 feet away". Oh, and this is all just personal opinion, not at all related to Circle-ness. Given that I am derailing the thread again, maybe we should continue this in a new thread if you want to debate more.
trollbill 01-24-07, 05:07 PM	Oh, and this is all just personal opinion, not at all related to Circle-ness. Given that I am derailing the thread again, maybe we should continue this in a new thread if you want to debate more. Heh...no, not worth debating. Chalk it up to ETV. Though I will admit your interpetation is a simpler one. You might want to consider adding that first sentence to your sig since you have to say it so often anymore. :D
clannagh 01-24-07, 05:21 PM	i am confused at the problem 10' away counts as being "at least 10' away" by any normal interpretation of the phrase I could revert back to my old philosophy teaching days and dig up stuff on the sorites problem and discuss boundaries etc but its not relevant here If you must be "at least 18 to drink" you get to drink at 18. There is no boundary issue .. "at least" is inclusive of the boundary condition.
Fleetfang 01-24-07, 05:38 PM	[[ Delayed post that's irrelevant now. Move along, nothing to see here... ]]
Bob_the_Theurge 01-24-07, 05:40 PM	You're misunderstanding the Evil Act rules, Bob_the_Theurge. DMs don't yank characters for Evil Acts, they just mark them down on ARs and contact the regional Triad if too many are popping up. If you've got a half-dozen Evil Acts in the last 10 ARs, the Triad may get in touch to ask for your character's justification, that's all. Unless the PC is actually being consistently and severely evil, he's not going to get yanked by anyone. I've seen and heard the threat to do so made, both at tables I've played at and at tables where I was just watching.
Bob_the_Theurge 01-24-07, 05:42 PM	Except I wanted a melee touch attack so I could smite evil and Devoted Inquisitor daze them as well. Of course, I have since found out that I couldn't use inflict minor wounds since it is an evil act :( No, no, no! Inflict Minor Wounds is Necromancy but it doesn't have the [evil] descriptor.
bitznarf 01-24-07, 06:25 PM	Some spell combos: - Fire Seeds + Resist Energy / Energy Immunity - cast the holly-berry-bombs version of Fire Seeds, give all eight berries to someone with a good reflex save and / or fire resistance who's planning to be in melee with the bad guys. Once that PC runs into melee, speak the command word and watch the explosions (in particular, it works nicely on cadaver collectors, and it's just funny when you hit a giant advanced mummy with the berry bombs). Another way of working this is with an unseen servant. Hand a bag full of holly berry bombs to him, walk him up to x location, say y word, watch things go boom. And after the combat re-cast your now vaporized unseen servant. Hmm... I wonder if Fire Seeds can be empowered...
Cardinal Teplin 01-24-07, 06:26 PM	But the spell description reveals that it involves channeling negative energy, which is an evil act, even if the spell doesn't have the evil descriptor.
bitznarf 01-24-07, 06:26 PM	No, no, no! Inflict Minor Wounds is Necromancy but it doesn't have the [evil] descriptor. Please read the rest of the thread.
copper_wyrmling 01-24-07, 07:20 PM	Another way of working this is with an unseen servant. Hand a bag full of holly berry bombs to him, walk him up to x location, say y word, watch things go boom. And after the combat re-cast your now vaporized unseen servant. Hmm... I wonder if Fire Seeds can be empowered... Fire Seeds can be empowered, my cleric just doesn't have the feats available. She wants a rod of empower spell sooooo much ;) My friend's cohort cleric, who is rather more of a power build (since we figured that as a cohort, she needed all the help she could get), has DMM (Empower) and Fire Seeds as a domain spell. It's a very nice combination. And: whoa, I've played two spellcasters to L15 and L11 respectively, and I didn't realize Calm Emotions cancels Confusion. (Probably because my cleric of Joramy refuses to use the spell for its intended purpose: taking away people's anger is possibly a violation of her deity's code of conduct.) I know what my UMD-using sorceress is buying at the start of her next game...
Lomiat 01-24-07, 07:45 PM	Calm Emotions is just a brilliant tactical spell overall. I like setting up surprise rounds for the party when they wouldn't normally exist. 1) Scouting report and teleportation effect. 2) Calm Emotions with everyone moving into position. I generally like to follow this with the Calm Emotions ended by a Sound Burst and Quickened Command for anyone who beats the Sound Burst DC (this is for my low-APL cleric). 3) Fascinate a bad guy while everyone moves into position. Works well if your bard has a high initiative, even better if the bard's Perform tends to result in DCs that require nat 20s to save. I suppose Charm spells could work in a similar fashion. I just have yet to see them used that way, though I have seen an enemy rogue Dominated and turned into the party's advance scout.
rockondon 01-24-07, 07:53 PM	I thought of another silence spell-use w/o the arrow bit. This one is also meaner (if the 1st would've worked) in my opinion. Casting silence on a harpoon from Stormwrack is fun. I bought one awhile back with one of my pc's and the thing could be nasty. Toss it at the caster and they have to make a ref save DC 10+ damage dealt if hit. They fail, they're harpooned and you have the trailing end of the harpoon's line. You can then make opposed str checks with the caster to bring them closer. That way they are both silenced and on the end of your fishing line. :D and when you reel him in you have to say... GET OVER HERE!!!!! props to whoever knows who I'm referring to ;)
Britt 01-24-07, 08:15 PM	and when you reel him in you have to say... GET OVER HERE!!!!! props to whoever knows who I'm referring to ;) Puh-leeze, that's so easy! Down-Back-High Punch Back-Back-Low Punch Down-High Punch Down-Back-High Punch Back-Back...etc etc Britt Wins! Flawless Victory! Fatality! Excellent!
trollbill 01-24-07, 08:38 PM	i am confused at the problem 10' away counts as being "at least 10' away" by any normal interpretation of the phrase I could revert back to my old philosophy teaching days and dig up stuff on the sorites problem and discuss boundaries etc but its not relevant here If you must be "at least 18 to drink" you get to drink at 18. There is no boundary issue .. "at least" is inclusive of the boundary condition. Essentially the issure revolves around how one measures the 10 feet. Does one measure it from that center of the square to the center of the other square, or does one measure it from the edge of the square to the edge of the other square in order to meet the requirements? If you measure it via the first method, then the 2 squares can be only 2 squares apart (with only 1 5-foot square in between them). If it is measured via the second method, then the 2 squares need to be at least 3 squares apart (with at least 2 5-foot squares in between them) in order to fulfil the requirement.
Crazy Boro 01-24-07, 09:16 PM	and when you reel him in you have to say... GET OVER HERE!!!!! props to whoever knows who I'm referring to ;) I was waiting for someone to bring that up. :P I do have a scorpion tattoo so I kind of fit, but then it's a gnome dragon disciple so I might be a bit too short to fit the bill. I do have that black bodysuit though . . .:D
jstorrie 01-25-07, 01:52 PM	Make sure to use your early combat actions efficiently. Tanks should move into threatening positions, debilitating or buffing effects should be up immediately, and characters needing to be defended should be defended. If you can't buff or debuff in the first round, at least help get the battlefield set up - for example, smokesticks can provide a useful for screen for spellcasters or ranged attackers to slip in and out of when facing other ranged attackers. On a related note, make sure your PC is set up so that unusual combat conditions don't cause her to waste actions adapting. If you're a fighter, wear your cold iron and silver - armor spikes, shield spikes, and spiked gauntlets can all be made of the stuff, saving you a turn of rifling through the golf bag. If you're a support character, get a quiver of Ehlonna or a Heward's so that you can easily access consumables and alchemicals. And don't discount the value of those alchemicals - used against enemies who are weak against grappling, or will saves, or reflex saves, the appropriate alchemical is still useful at APL6.