Post/Author/DateTime	Post
control freak 08-01-07, 05:39 PM	i have seen this word used alot and i understand that this can be great if you get ahead of it but if your behind it you are in deep trouble what characters care about it the most? clerics, wizards, monks, fighters or just every one is there anything that being behind the curve is ok why do people care more about this then levels? and can any one explain average PC wealth for each level to me in LG terms
bitznarf 08-01-07, 05:53 PM	why do people care more about this then levels? and can any one explain average PC wealth for each level to me in LG terms In a normal home game if you are comparing strength/power/versatility/whatever your PC is measured against the other PCs in his adventuring party. In such a setting losing XP is a bad thing because it is hard to 'catch up' if you will. In LG you would be measured against PCs *of the same XP as you* regardless of how long it took to get to that point. In such a situation the more gold you have at that particular milestone of XP, the stronger you are relative to everyone else. You can always get more levels/XP. Losing gold is often a one way thing, its very hard to go the other way. Thus, the crafting feats help a PC get stronger *for his level* in 2 ways: you save gold when you craft items and lose XP, which effectively gets you even more gold for your current XP level than a non caster. P.S. Thank you for putting some sort of punctuation/formating into your post.
control freak 08-01-07, 05:59 PM	In a normal home game if you are comparing strength/power/verstatility/whatever else your PC is measure against the other PCs in his adventuring party. In such a setting losing XP is a bad thing because it is hard to 'catch up' if you will. In LG you would be measured against PCs *of the same XP as you* regardless of how long it took to get to that point. In such a situation the more gold you have at that particular milestone of XP, the stronger you are relative to everyone else. You can always get more levels/xp. Losing gold is often a one way thing, its very hard to go the other way. ah i see so its about keeping a character down so you can get more items so you are more powerful when you finaly get there so CWI basicaly doubles your effective character wealth and slows your leveling. also does any one have average PC wealths for each level? P.S. Thank you for putting some sort of punctuation/formating into your post. I am starting to do that now! :D omfgwtfbbq!!!
bitznarf 08-01-07, 06:03 PM	ah i see so its about keeping a character down so you can get more items so you are more powerful when you finaly get there so CWI basicaly doubles your effective character wealth and slows your leveling. Note quite double, there are some things that you will buy that you cannot craft with just Craft Wondrous Items. Potions for example. Weapons. Metamagic rods. also does any one have average PC wealths for each level? It's in the DMG somewhere, I can't recall the page.
kenobi65 08-01-07, 06:20 PM	It's in the DMG somewhere, I can't recall the page. Yup; as that particular bit is apparently not OGC, it's not in the SRD. But, that's where it lives.
solbergb 08-01-07, 06:22 PM	Thus, the crafting feats help a PC get stronger *for his level* in 2 ways: you save gold when you craft items and lose XP, which effectively gets you even more gold for your current XP level than a non caster. They do yes. But that is of course what you're getting for spending the feat. Better equipment. You could have spent the feat on something else that would also make the character more powerful.
control freak 08-01-07, 06:28 PM	a feat to make almost each GP u gain = 2 GP is kind of amazeing i think. and does LG really follow standard PC wealth???
Mattastrophic 08-01-07, 06:31 PM	By the way, the value of Crafting goes down as you rise the ranks. When you're faced with dropping 10 TUs to craft something, the prospect of losing 5+ play sessions isn't very appetizing. The only way to control character wealth is to do just that: enforce it. Just like Xen'Drik. And we don't want that. So let's learn to accept the system that's in place and thriving. -Matt
Tengu 08-01-07, 06:48 PM	The multiclass penalty and undead are two other ways to get more AR's per level thus more money per level. If you race to get more levels in LG you may find your peers are much more potent than you are. And of course, you can die – however coming back costs money, so you need to do the math and make sure that your number of deaths are less than the money you are getting my gaining new AR’s… this is known as “death in the balance”… :D
bitznarf 08-01-07, 06:53 PM	The multiclass penalty In LG the multiclass penalty applies to GP earned as well.
control freak 08-01-07, 06:58 PM	The multiclass penalty and undead are two other ways to get more AR's per level thus more money per level. If you race to get more levels in LG you may find your peers are much more potent than you are. i raced up my levels and i dont have a problem making it through adventures ( i have had 1 death with my first character ever and it was a rogue that i had built to go assasin but turns out LG doesnt allow evil so it was bad) i have a problem (because our store started basicaly this year) finding other people that can play APL 6-8 (i am looking for people to play feilds of ruin after i get a little more EXP so im 6th and hellspike prison after im 7th) my cleric is well ahead of the gold curve and intends to use right scroll for the job and walk with a 4th level scroll out durring those 2 ADPs
MatteBlack 08-01-07, 07:08 PM	It effects your effective power level versus your character level. With the new rule stating that you can only over play the APL by 3 levels, your power relative to your level has become more important since folks below the curve can't just drop down one more APL of challenge.
control freak 08-01-07, 07:13 PM	i could be wrong but arent the values stated in the DMG (all i remember is lvl20 is like 200,000) for NPCs
clannagh 08-01-07, 07:37 PM	One of the issues with the gold curve in LG is the fact that you retire after level 15. This means that characters that want to buy expensive items (vorpal sword being a classic example) often can only afford them just before retirement. This is exacberated if you have "power leveled" spending a lot of money on consumables in some misguided race to level your PC up quickly. Now that the "multiclass exploit" has been stopped there are currently five common ways to get ahead of the gold curve that I am aware of: 1. die towards the end of any level above 6, especially if you have half price or free raise deads 2. fail to recover from a level drain 3. Play up so you take half XP but get a more favorable xp gold ratio. For example a level 7 PC will get less XP at APL 10 but end up with more gold than if he played APL8. 4. Craft .. this is not necessarily that great if you just end up with a zillion PoP 1's and 2's. 5. Perform, sleight of hand etc between games. (makes pocket money but that is all) Bear in mind that exploiting 1) and 2) to often could get your character retired early by triad if it gets picked up in an audit.
Tengu 08-01-07, 07:50 PM	In LG the multiclass penalty applies to GP earned as well. Oh, too bad. But it still gives more access by getting more AR's, right?
bitznarf 08-01-07, 08:02 PM	It can yes. But it can also drain your wealth faster, you use more consumables per level, you spend more on lifestyle costs, etc.
Banor 08-01-07, 08:21 PM	i could be wrong but arent the values stated in the DMG (all i remember is lvl20 is like 200,000) for NPCs p.135 for PCs, 127 for NPCs
Drezden 08-01-07, 08:59 PM	You left out a big one - casting spells with XP costs. A 14th level character who only plays APL14 mods will hit 15th level after 8 mods and will have earned 52,800 - which is only slightly higher than the DMG tables show (14th is 150,000 gp; 15th is 200,000 gp). If the same character burned 700 xp a mod (the max) casting spells, it will take him 13 mods and he will have earned 85,800 gp - hitting 15th with 235,800 gp in gear. Now let's say the XP guy crafts too. So, for example he upgrades a +4 item to +6 and then a +2 item to +6. It will take him 15 mods to make 15th level. He will earn 99,000 gp. Assuming he had baseline equipment at the begininng of 14th level (150,000 gp), when he hits 15th he will have equipment worth 275,000 gp. Yeah, casters and crafters have a big advantage in the gold curve. Daren One of the issues with the gold curve in LG is the fact that you retire after level 15. This means that characters that want to buy expensive items (vorpal sword being a classic example) often can only afford them just before retirement. This is exacberated if you have "power leveled" spending a lot of money on consumables in some misguided race to level your PC up quickly. Now that the "multiclass exploit" has been stopped there are currently five common ways to get ahead of the gold curve that I am aware of: 1. die towards the end of any level above 6, especially if you have half price or free raise deads 2. fail to recover from a level drain 3. Play up so you take half XP but get a more favorable xp gold ratio. For example a level 7 PC will get less XP at APL 10 but end up with more gold than if he played APL8. 4. Craft .. this is not necessarily that great if you just end up with a zillion PoP 1's and 2's. 5. Perform, sleight of hand etc between games. (makes pocket money but that is all) Bear in mind that exploiting 1) and 2) to often could get your character retired early by triad if it gets picked up in an audit.
Timlagor 08-02-07, 04:30 AM	The APL Gold Caps are based on the DMG guidelines. Essentially if you get full GP on everything playing 'at APL' and never spend a gp on consummables you will be on the DMG gold curve. You can get a bit more GP by playing up. Death is the big curve-breaker. - even if you die early in a level you make a profit from about level 7 - overcap gold and contributions from other PCs will often reduce the cost of coming back. (Favours may also do so but these are rarer than they used to be and were never common in most Regions) Clearly negative levels have an even bigger impact since they have no associated cost. However you only need to do it once deliberately to get retired prematurely if the 'powers that be' are convinced it was deliberate -I don't think they have much sense of humour on the subject. Fortunately most players do see death as a bad thing and the gold curve is just a compensation to comfort yourself with. It is also self-balancing: bad players will die mor and get more wealth giveing them more powerful characters with a better chance of survival in future.
TWG_Prometheus 08-02-07, 10:35 AM	Yeah, even though death is widely known as a good way to get ahead on the gold curve and/or play more with a character, I don't think I've ever seen a player axe one of their characters deliberately. Deaths have been pretty rare in my play experience. (Coming close to dying being relatively very frequent)
UMiskatonic 08-02-07, 11:05 AM	I'll add one more: 6) Live off the land. While 12-48 gold isn't that much, it does add up after a while. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- You can calculate the gold curve, you know. Look at a normal AR, and see what the average gold/xp is for that APL. For APL 2, I think it's around 400 xp/400gp. So, after one ar, that's where we expect a player to be. After three, you should have 1200 xp, and 1200 gp (plus starting funds, minus 36 gold for upkeep). Hah-hah, that's 2nd level. Therefore, the gold curve for 2nd level starts at 1200 gp. We should NOT expect any 2nd level character to have full plate, but a MW weapon, an antitoxin, and a potion of CLW is totally reasonable. In fact, that character should have extra gold in pocket, and if he/she doesn't, they are behind the gold curve. I can't prove this, but I think the Circle did a LOT of math when they set the APL rewards, and the level progression (you get to 2nd level quickly, most other levels require 5-8 mods, etc) is exactly what they want it to be.
Madfox11 08-02-07, 11:13 AM	I can't prove this, but I think the Circle did a LOT of math when they set the APL rewards, and the level progression (you get to 2nd level quickly, most other levels require 5-8 mods, etc) is exactly what they want it to be. They did... (at the time I was a triad member and not a Circle members so I don't know the details). Pieter Sleijpen RPGA LG Circle Member The Splintered Suns
catsclaw 08-02-07, 01:32 PM	And of course, you can die – however coming back costs money, so you need to do the math and make sure that your number of deaths are less than the money you are getting my gaining new AR’s… this is known as “death in the balance”…My "diminutive-master-of-the-dark-arts" gnome got repeatedly kissed by a succubus and dropped two levels, several days travel away from the nearest divine caster. I only managed one of the fort saves to get the levels back. Seriously bothered me, until I realized I had managed to earn 75% of the gold for 5th level, thus putting me squarely ahead of the gold curve. Restoration is a lot cheaper than Raise Dead. I can live with that. (And yes, I really think the way LG handles gold-by-level is bad, because of the way it skews player incentives. But that's the way it works.)
Reylance 08-02-07, 01:35 PM	Only they did it wrong, as the DMG wealth per level guidelines are not the total amount of money earned over an adventuring career, but the actual wealth. Every coin spent on consumables, upkeep, bribes, NPC spellcasting, and the like is a permanent hit to your wealth. Plus, it is far easier to lose GP than XP. Blowing the final combat might cost you 30% of the XP, but 75% or more of the GP. Plus, modules where doing the right thing (not robbing unconscious NPCs) means you get no gold is a stab in the heart of your wealth. Rewards need to be increases by roughly 10% in order to bring things back in balance.
bitznarf 08-02-07, 03:07 PM	Only they did it wrong, as the DMG wealth per level guidelines are not the total amount of money earned over an adventuring career, but the actual wealth. Every coin spent on consumables, upkeep, bribes, NPC spellcasting, and the like is a permanent hit to your wealth. Rewards need to be increases by roughly 10% in order to bring things back in balance. What do you think AR items and the RPGA rewards cards are? Just how much is a card like Feign Surprise or Not This Time are worth in GP? I used to gripe about it a bit to until I realized that AR rewards can be considered to have some gold value. How much exactly is unknown, but sometimes it is a fair bit. For example I have a once/adventure reroll for the next 10 months or so.
TWG_Prometheus 08-02-07, 05:19 PM	What do you think AR items and the RPGA rewards cards are? Just how much is a card like Feign Surprise or Not This Time worth in GP? I used to gripe about it a bit to until I realized that AR rewards can be considered to have some gold value. How much exactly is unknown, but sometimes it is a fair bit. For example I have a once/adventure reroll for the next 10 months or so. It's also not THAT hard to actually stay on the gold curve in Living Greyhawk, even if you aren't a crafter and don't die. You have to be smart about your decisions and not go too hog-wild on consumables, but a smart player can generally hang in there. Playing up to APL 10+ is a great way to increase your gold/XP ratio that anyone can do if they're intelligent about it. Occaisionally you also see discount favors that can swing the ratio your way just a little bit. Sure, if you fail to get all the gold for a module, that hurts a ton, but it usually only happens if you...you know...blow it. There ought to be a penalty for failure. I've modules that cost you gold rather than gain you gold even if you succeed, and those are frustrating, but they're rare and the module author usually catches a row about it so the problem tends toward self-correcting.
Morgen 08-02-07, 08:34 PM	I personally wouldn't mind another chance at randomly getting certs instead of gold, just once or twice to keep things interesting. Or a flea market that gets set up at a role playing interactive where people could trade items with some rules behind it.
Lomiat 08-03-07, 12:04 AM	I personally wouldn't mind another chance at randomly getting certs instead of gold, just once or twice to keep things interesting. Or a flea market that gets set up at a role playing interactive where people could trade items with some rules behind it. Oh yeah... I'll trade you for Malthindor, Morgen. If you'll part with your sword, I'll pick up one of these Vests of the Master Evoker to hand you (while I still have a seller lined up). -Lomiat
Lomiat 08-03-07, 12:10 AM	Only they did it wrong, as the DMG wealth per level guidelines are not the total amount of money earned over an adventuring career, but the actual wealth. Every coin spent on consumables, upkeep, bribes, NPC spellcasting, and the like is a permanent hit to your wealth. Plus, it is far easier to lose GP than XP. Blowing the final combat might cost you 30% of the XP, but 75% or more of the GP. Plus, modules where doing the right thing (not robbing unconscious NPCs) means you get no gold is a stab in the heart of your wealth. Rewards need to be increases by roughly 10% in order to bring things back in balance. Maybe at lower levels, it's a bit of an issue, but not much, in my experience. At higher levels, though, it's frankly a good thing that not every PC is at or ahead of the gold curve; it's hard enough to write a balanced encounter that challenges the majority of tables without decimating the stragglers. Character wealth is a major factor. I tend to appreciate NPCs -- because it's easier to tie an NPC into a story line than a random monster -- but they drop easy at higher levels. They just can't keep up in terms of wealth, and if you abide by the DMG and give them PC wealth, that's a big bump to the EL -- one the levels, racial abilities, and hit dice might not support. Furthermore, we tend, as players, to concern ourselves a lot about "table variation," but table variation is far more vexing to an author looking to write balanced encounters. Quite simply, the less wealth the PCs have, the less difficult it is for an author challenge the solid parties without blindsiding weaker parties into a TPK. Of course, I don't advocate that we give up any GP. I just don't know that adding another 10% to what we already get is going to make the system any better.
Madfox11 08-03-07, 03:58 AM	If the rules would trust on the PCs spending 10% of their wealth on consumables than a big majority of players would get 10% ahead of the gold curve. Most of the people I have seen complaining about the expendenture of consumable waste their gold on unnecessary stuff. When I still could play I paid for them when necessary, but I did not even come close to that 10% figure you mention. Of course, that is also without counting on AR favors and the RPGA campaign reward cards. I never experienced any problems with the gp:xp ratio, except for item crafting...
JamesMaissen 08-03-07, 07:47 PM	If the rules would trust on the PCs spending 10% of their wealth on consumables than a big majority of players would get 10% ahead of the gold curve. Most of the people I have seen complaining about the expendenture of consumable waste their gold on unnecessary stuff. When I still could play I paid for them when necessary, but I did not even come close to that 10% figure you mention. Of course, that is also without counting on AR favors and the RPGA campaign reward cards. I never experienced any problems with the gp:xp ratio, except for item crafting... The main problem imho is the huge difference between the higher APLs. If you are 8th-9th level not playing APL 10 costs you nearly 1000gp. This puts a large penalty on those who do (by happenstance or other pressures). A small fix would be to institute something near the way interactives are handled where rewards are based upon character level. I think making rewards based on the lesser of APL played and character level would ameliorate this slightly and make choosing APLs with mixed tables alot easier. -James
Mattastrophic 08-03-07, 07:58 PM	A small fix would be to institute something near the way interactives are handled where rewards are based upon character level. I think making rewards based on the lesser of APL played and character level would ameliorate this slightly and make choosing APLs with mixed tables alot easier. Once again, rewards based on character level shines as a solution to a multitude of perceived problems. -Matt
Hariman 08-04-07, 01:31 PM	One of the issues with the gold curve in LG is the fact that you retire after level 15. This means that characters that want to buy expensive items (vorpal sword being a classic example) often can only afford them just before retirement. This is exacberated if you have "power leveled" spending a lot of money on consumables in some misguided race to level your PC up quickly. Now that the "multiclass exploit" has been stopped there are currently five common ways to get ahead of the gold curve that I am aware of: 1. die towards the end of any level above 6, especially if you have half price or free raise deads 2. fail to recover from a level drain 3. Play up so you take half XP but get a more favorable xp gold ratio. For example a level 7 PC will get less XP at APL 10 but end up with more gold than if he played APL8. 4. Craft .. this is not necessarily that great if you just end up with a zillion PoP 1's and 2's. 5. Perform, sleight of hand etc between games. (makes pocket money but that is all) Bear in mind that exploiting 1) and 2) to often could get your character retired early by triad if it gets picked up in an audit. Oh, yeah, the "You become an NPC if you are delaying character progression to avoid retirement." I my first character were ever audited, I'd have to do some sweet talking to avoid this. He's died 4 times and his great problem is that he's BEHIND the gold curve and has no easy way to catch up. Now, guaranteed, I'll be taking Craft Wondrous Item at either 6th or 7th level so he can craft. (Rogue2/Wizard3 right now.) And I'm seriously considering dropping Practiced Spellcaster in favor of Empower Spell and Metamagic School Focus. Or maybe dropping precise shot and relying on spells OTHER than orbs. Oh, and I'm getting him a weasel familiar ASAP. He keeps failing critical reflex saves.
CdrcJsn 08-04-07, 01:51 PM	I my first character were ever audited, I'd have to do some sweet talking to avoid this. He's died 4 times and his great problem is that he's BEHIND the gold curve and has no easy way to catch up. Now, guaranteed, I'll be taking Craft Wondrous Item at either 6th or 7th level so he can craft. (Rogue2/Wizard3 right now.) You've died 4 times and you're only 5th level?!? :eek: Methinks you need to change your tactics and get away from the front lines...
Hariman 08-04-07, 04:18 PM	You've died 4 times and you're only 5th level?!? :eek: Methinks you need to change your tactics and get away from the front lines... Death 1: Rogue level 2: Chased down by a black dragon and then breathed upon while at 0 HP. I was playing up to APL 4 with a small party. Failed reflex save. For those who are curious, it was a metaregional, A Study In Contrasts. (Possibly only a regional.) Death 2: Rogue Level 2: In an area of limited movement, vs an enemy caster, I'm chucking Acids and Alchechemists fire, approaching to 15 feet. It five foots and uses Fireburst. Again. Failed Reflex Save #2. Death 3: Rogue2/Wizard4: Casting Invisibility from a scroll and getting glitterdusted HURTS. So does multiple negative levels. 4 and 2 negative levels at character level 6 = dead. Death 4: Dominion over Bright Sands. The Cheese O Matic killer APL 6 encounter that is easily an EL 10 or 11 (Possibly a low 12) killed my character. On ANOTHER failed reflex save. Not one death from weapon damage. Or, at least, not DIRECTLY from weapon damage. Deaths one and four were after I got beat up a bit, before I could heal. I think I need a weasel familiar, Gloves of Dex and a Con booster more than anything else. EDIT: Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention, this character had multiple bouts of slavery (both last year and this year) and TU hits from raise deads/reincarnate favors. Not to mention other TU hits. I think he only got to adventure for about 25 TUs this year. Which really makes me hate the slavery TU penalties. With a passion.
solbergb 08-06-07, 01:26 PM	You need a cloak/vest of resistance before you get the dex/con items. It's cheaper and helps with more. I agree, you probably need the weasel familiar too. You may also want to stock up on "not this time" cards and keep your familiar close so you can use them. The sad thing is you had evasion for all of those deaths if you could have made the save. I think you've got to be the only character I've ever met who had "reflex save failure" as the proximate cause of multiple deaths.
Hariman 08-06-07, 07:47 PM	You need a cloak/vest of resistance before you get the dex/con items. It's cheaper and helps with more. I agree, you probably need the weasel familiar too. You may also want to stock up on "not this time" cards and keep your familiar close so you can use them. The sad thing is you had evasion for all of those deaths if you could have made the save. I think you've got to be the only character I've ever met who had "reflex save failure" as the proximate cause of multiple deaths. Actually, I already have a Vest of Resistance. It might be worth taking it to +2 before I get any stat boosters. It's only 3000gp more, less if I get to 6th and take Craft Wondrous Item and "burn" a TU. Actually, taking Craft Wondrous to keep is sorely tempting. It might delay access to Empower Spell and Metamagic School Focus, but it's definitely worth the gold my character would save. Especially once I get enough to make a Boccob's Blessed Book! Thankfully, the other LG character death was from a x4 scythe crit. Taking 90 damage and going to -68 really hurts. Especially at APL 4! But that was the mistake of standing within one move action of the enemy.
Madfox11 08-07-07, 07:25 AM	I think you've got to be the only character I've ever met who had "reflex save failure" as the proximate cause of multiple deaths. In my experience rogues and wizards do have a tendency to die due to failed reflex saving throws. I know it is one of the reasons why a player selected Improved Evasion as her rogue's special ability. Her character had died twice from a failed reflex save... In any event, the reason your character is behind the gold curve is most likely because you died before level 8. At the lower levels raise dead is rather expensive, and can only rarely be paid fully from over-the-cap gold.
control freak 08-07-07, 07:30 AM	luck feats, high AC(to prevent confirming), and fortification armor are all good ways around stupid 4x scythe crits if those are prevalent in your metaregeion definately invest in some, and high AC is always a good idea after all level 4 or so you have mage armor which if you bought a gloves of dex/crafted one you go to 18 AC, then round 1 sheild 30 feet away, round 2 scorching ray/other ranged spell, 30 feet away in any event i am starting to think that some of the AR items i have are amazeing because they give stuff for free :D
Hariman 08-07-07, 01:22 PM	In my experience rogues and wizards do have a tendency to die due to failed reflex saving throws. I know it is one of the reasons why a player selected Improved Evasion as her rogue's special ability. Her character had died twice from a failed reflex save... In any event, the reason your character is behind the gold curve is most likely because you died before level 8. At the lower levels raise dead is rather expensive, and can only rarely be paid fully from over-the-cap gold. And I slammed up against the worst AR item ever, which takes 16 (or 8) TUs, depending on what you do in the mod. And also takes all of your gold, leaving you with nothing but 240 gold. I believe that AR item prompted the change in the Charity of Friends rule. So that people could still use it even if they had some money. Before the rule change, every DM in my area said "No, you can't use charity of friends, because you were given money." Guaranteed, I hit that after the first 2 deaths, (Which were reincarnates that were paid via overcap.) on the cusp of level 3. (Which was when the character took his first level of Wizard) But I had to pay 3500 gold within 2 mods just to stay alive. (Cheapy reincarnate and a half cost Raise Dead.) I had to sell a spellbook that my character had bought and his haversack to stay alive. Which is why Craft Wondrous is so desirable right now. I can craft the items I want at half price.
Grantor 08-07-07, 03:52 PM	Wait. If you are level two and die, but had enough to pay for a raise dead without going into debt, how are you behind the gold curve. You're first level again, but with some gear. If you were paying so much that you were going into debt, you should have just started your character over, not raised him from the dead. You can always get new accesses... Starting over is better than continuing a 1st level character with a raise dead debt.
Hariman 08-07-07, 04:16 PM	Wait. If you are level two and die, but had enough to pay for a raise dead without going into debt, how are you behind the gold curve. You're first level again, but with some gear. If you were paying so much that you were going into debt, you should have just started your character over, not raised him from the dead. You can always get new accesses... Starting over is better than continuing a 1st level character with a raise dead debt. This character started and: Made it to level 2, died immediately, was reincarnated via overcap. Made Level 2 again, died again, was again reincarnated via overcap. Had a run of good luck, made it to level 6, died, and was reincarnated for 1000 GP as his original self, via two different favors. The very next mod, which was Dominion over BS, killed him AGAIN! No desire to risk reincarnation at this point, I sold a number of items to survive the mod and pay for the 2500 raise dead. (And believe me, we needed those items from selling my character's haversack.) Oh, and other costs made the mod give less than full gold. After Dominion over BS, I played two more mods, making it back to 5th level, and promptly ran out of TUs. The majority of my character's gold is tied up in his spellbook right now.