Post/Author/DateTime	Post
heirodule 08-22-07, 11:12 AM	I'm thinking that WOTC needs new players, if they want LFR to work. People who are passionate about the Greyhawk brand and play LG are mostly in the 30-50 age bracket (my guess). they have Greyhawk "brand loyalty". Its VERY hard in marketing to change the buying habits of people in that age bracket. That's why TV wants viewers of 18-25 or so. I'll predict that unless WOTC gets lots of new (and young) players, LFR will never equal LG participation, but its their own fault for running the LG brand for so long to create that level of brand loyalty. I think unfortunately the D&D brand as a whole probably skews to the 30-50 year olds at this point. Any data?
KShaver 08-22-07, 11:38 AM	I'm thinking that WOTC needs new players, if they want LFR to work. People who are passionate about the Greyhawk brand and play LG are mostly in the 30-50 age bracket (my guess). they have Greyhawk "brand loyalty". FR has more than enough brand loyalty to make up for losing a few diehard GH fans. If even a fraction of those players join the RPGA and begin playing LR (Officially announced as Living Realms, no F) then it will easily outshine LG.
clannagh 08-22-07, 07:55 PM	People who are passionate about the Greyhawk brand and play LG are mostly in the 30-50 age bracket (my guess). they have Greyhawk "brand loyalty". At conferences maybe. Our local gamesdays are more than 50% under 13. Needless to say those under 13's do not have frequent flyer points to attend conferences. The gamesdays are actually run by the older group of course. Its VERY hard in marketing to change the buying habits of people in that age bracket. That's why TV wants viewers of 18-25 or so. I was under the impression it was more that the 18-25 group had more disposable income. One night home from the pub = one more D&D book for the collection sort of thing. The 40+ age group have loans, mortgages and sometimes even 18 year olds of their own at university to compete for resources. In terms of RPGA though the significant thing is that many 18-25 year olds have too many things competing for their time. Between study, WoW online, social events and parties etc .. its unlikely many 20 year olds could or even should fit in joining triad. FR has more than enough brand loyalty to make up for losing a few diehard GH fans. If even a fraction of those players join the RPGA and begin playing LR (Officially announced as Living Realms, no F) then it will easily outshine LG. All they actually need is a reasonable number of triad people and authors to port across. Not even the majority .. just enough to seed the new campaign. Which is why ranting and raving about why you are leaving is pointless .. WoTC do not really care so long as they get a solid core of the old functionaries across they could probably lose ALL the players and still do OK.
echoota 08-22-07, 11:52 PM	Well, it's not as if FR is a shiny new setting. The first campaign pack came out in '87 and before that we had sprinklings of Greenwoods flavor in Dragon articles. In the end I can't really see any other move for WotC to do if they want to tap into revenue streams. LG would have generated sales with splatbooks for the next decade or so, but FR will generate sales for splatbooks and FR books in that same cycle. If they stuck with LG then they'd be yet another multi-year business cycle behind in min-maxing their sales. I could see them pushing the overall fan base too far if they had made Living Eberron to kick off, as the setting is new and has a more specific flavor, but FR has been around for 20 years which is more than enough to evoke feelings of nostalgia for some segments of the gaming community.
RedKnight2 08-25-07, 03:26 PM	I felt like the conversions were very easy in Lc, and Lg i do not see any reason for the change. Personally i did not necessarily accept the change to greyhawk and ate many mods cause of there exceesive paper work tracking every time you sat down at a table. I am now finding my self cheated as the game i have over the years accepted and enjoyed is now ending. Due to the cost put out for books that were needed and now they are not needed. There are several of us who live paycheck to paycheck to paycheck that would perfer it to stay. I feel like the triads loyalty is to the fan base back east and people in the nw are not important enough to ask or contact. I found out this way also when LC died due to triads disinterest it seems and now they doing same thing. Our group in nw lost several people after Lc La Both died we averaged two tables each back then. It took over 2 years to build up same amount in Lg now you will set several groups back again in same amount ot time to build up. Ill start doing other things as i am tired of getting involved and getting happy with how i have a character and then the triad drops hammer to you cant play no more. RedKnight2
Morgen 08-25-07, 11:10 PM	There is a reason there aren't any real 3rd edition Greyhawk books but like 50 FR books you know, it's a popular setting. Most of the people who started playing in LG were playing because they used to be playing in Living City after all.
MadVlad 08-25-07, 11:18 PM	There is a reason there aren't any real 3rd edition Greyhawk books but like 50 FR books you know, it's a popular setting. Most of the people who started playing in LG were playing because they used to be playing in Living City after all. I couldn't disagree with you more. It's impossible to become the "most popular setting" when there's nothing to be popular about. How about some real authors writing some Greyhawk mods. R.A. Salvatore would be a nice start, though I thoroughly enjoyed all of Paul Kidd's books.
Samwise 08-26-07, 01:50 PM	There is a reason there aren't any real 3rd edition Greyhawk books but like 50 FR books you know, it's a popular setting. Most of the people who started playing in LG were playing because they used to be playing in Living City after all. There were 28 FR gaming products for 3E/3.5, not 50. (That includes one miniature boxed set and a setting themed DM's screen.) A reasonable schedule of releases, but; It is absurd to suggest that the sales figures of 28 products can be reasonably compared to the sales figures of 1 product to determine the popularity of a setting, and the long term viability of said setting as a product line. Putting out a random Greyhawk tagged book every few years and waiting to see if anyone buys is hardly going to promote it as a setting. Eberron has had 20 products in 4 years (including a DM screen and character sheets). How are the sales for that setting compared to Forgotten Realms? Make the same effort of Greyhawk, including a 2 successive D&D campaigns now that LG is ending, and then compare the figures. If they are too low with that kind of support, then yes, definitely, cancel support for the line. But it is a self-fulfilling prophecy to not produce or promote a game line then claim nobody is interested in it. (Although WotC has been using the "it will compete with FR" explanation more lately, which is significantly more reasonable. I think it is rather obvious that if they did indeed start putting out GH products like that, they'd wind up with warehouses full of FR returns. On that basis, it makes sense for them not to support GH.) As for saying that most people who started in LG came from LC, that would seem to be directly contradicted by the numbers the RPGA has announced for number of players, with figures quadrupling since the start of the campaign. Unless all those people took time off, LG has attracted a significant majority of new players compared to LC players who switched over.
Madfox11 08-27-07, 03:28 AM	Most of the players attracted to LG in my region though were not attracted by the setting but by the type of campaign (living, worldwide). There simply was no RPGA before 3rd edition and LG around here (well there had been some for a short time in the early to mid-nineties but that floated on one vollunteer). It is a bit of a chicken or egg discussion what cames first FR popularity or FR attention. Fact is that FR is hugely more popular than Greyhawk, and that novels actually have a lot to do with it (so those should be counted in addition to actual game products). The large amount of new players drawn into RPGA due to the Undermountain campaign does give the RPGA some idea in this regard...
Istaran 08-27-07, 07:50 PM	When I started playing LG it was because it was literally the only D&D I could find at the time after the GM flaked out of my home game without warning. Since then it wasn't until XE came out that we had anything else going on where I play unless I DM'd it myself. Now I'm getting more options recently between LG, XE, and a few home games (one I run off and on, and one I just play in). Many of the local players and DMs however are still steadfast LG-only people who decline to participate in anything else, limiting the ability to form tables of anything else. I expect that if LG continued that I would see LR only at conventions unless I make a big push (like I did for XE) to keep interested people organized and keep the games going. I have no way of knowing how many people got into LG because it was the only game in town, but I imagine that has been the source of some of their numbers. If everyone had a chance to play LG, LR, XE, and whatever else regularly then we would be able to see what people actually chose to stick with. When some of those games are available to you only in a convention, some of us will decline to play them at the convention (so we can devote more time to the campaigns we will be able to play the rest of the time).