Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ramacass 12-02-06, 09:15 PM	Does anyone have an opinion as to what is the most dangerous region. I played for a while without a region, just sticking to core mods, our group had very few fatalities until Thailand got included into Perrenland and since then just about every mod has a near TPK. Don't get me wrong Perrenland is great I also enjoy the mods more with the ever present threat but is it normal to go up against Bulette in a APL 4, or 3 vampire spawn, and let's not even get started on the Babau demon (CR 6) that summoned another Babau before attacking in an APL 4 Wicked
RedKnightofKet 12-02-06, 10:00 PM	Ket, is the most dangerous region, I assure you! We'll have you all conquered before you know it! Rary's work in the Bright Sands is only a prelude to.... wait a sec, you mean region to play in, don't you?:D Well, with Ket laws regarding lethal damage being what they are, a lot of times the bad guys don't even want to kill you... so, I guess in that case I'll have to say NOT Ket. Coming soon to a region near you! ;)
JohnduBois 12-02-06, 11:00 PM	Does anyone have an opinion as to what is the most dangerous region. I played for a while without a region, just sticking to core mods, our group had very few fatalities until Thailand got included into Perrenland and since then just about every mod has a near TPK. Don't get me wrong Perrenland is great I also enjoy the mods more with the ever present threat but is it normal to go up against Bulette in a APL 4, or 3 vampire spawn, and let's not even get started on the Babau demon (CR 6) that summoned another Babau before attacking in an APL 4 Wicked You may want to read the adventures in question to ensure that the TPK-ness of these adventures is in fact the mod and not the DM. I've had a couple adventures where I almost wrote lengthy complaints to both the authors and the triad responsible, but read the mod and discovered that the DM, in one example, ran the APL 2 party through the APL 6 combats. In terms of the actual question at hand, I've only played in three regions (Furyondy, Verbobonc, and Veluna - I'll get to play in Ket next May), and I've found that the difficulty in adventures is usually a reflection of the author. I've played extremely easy adventures in each region, and extremely difficult adventures in each region. One thing I have learned, though - don't mess with Iuz's Border States metaregionals. Most Iuz authors tend to have a thing for including untiered encounters in the mod, and that goes double for the metaregion's new Circle rep.
copper_wyrmling 12-02-06, 11:43 PM	In terms of the actual question at hand, I've only played in three regions (Furyondy, Verbobonc, and Veluna - I'll get to play in Ket next May), and I've found that the difficulty in adventures is usually a reflection of the author. I've played extremely easy adventures in each region, and extremely difficult adventures in each region. One thing I have learned, though - don't mess with Iuz's Border States metaregionals. Most Iuz authors tend to have a thing for including untiered encounters in the mod, and that goes double for the metaregion's new Circle rep. I miss my Iuz metaregionals... although I found an EL=APL+5 encounter in my first Sheldomar Valley game as well, which made me feel right at home :) As a general rule, Perrenland regionals are considered about on-par with Cores, whereas the Iuz mods tend to be tougher. The Bissel games I've played so far have seemed fairly gentle (in one of them we got away with playing up to 6 with a table that barely qualified, with only L2 cleric spells and L3 warmage spells for magical firepower), but I've only played two, so that's a very small sample size. Sometimes you just get the module at a bad APL. The bulette at APL 4 is known as an example of this: that mod is just fine at high APLs, but there were a lot of complaints from the first APL 4 table in Canberra as well. Three vampire spawn at 4 is not THAT bad, provided you remember to buy the cheap silver weapons that we all have universal access to. Regarding the demon-summoning abilities, those shouldn't be used except in exceptional circumstances - from a game perspective, they make the encounter wildly swingy, and from an RP perspective, the demons usually don't want to end up owing a favor to another demon ;)
Herrbard 12-03-06, 12:12 AM	Well, my playing regions include Veluna, Geoff and Keoland. Keoland is the deadliest. By far. I play in Veluna and Geoff, get a character up to fourth or fifth level, then go to a Keoland convention and die. Twice. In four days. And its happened two times in the last thirteen months!:blink: I've never been killed anywhere else BUT Keoland! :ghosted:
Britt 12-03-06, 12:53 AM	Ok, so I just typed this really long post that got lost because I hit F5 on accident while finishing up. Le sigh. I'll type it again, but more briefly this time. Sorry :) Since I was mentioned, I thought I should give my thoughts on this issue. IMO, based on playing through level 18, judging many high level events, writing, editing, and playtesting mods, The EL:APL ratio is targeted at APLs 6 and 8. Below that, the ratio is more deadly than the DMG indicates; above that, the ratio is less deadly than the DMG indicates. From my experience, climax encounters should be about like the following to achieve what the DMG says should be moderately deadly with the possibility of one PC dying: APL 1: EL 3 to low EL 4 APL 2: EL 4 to low EL 5 APL 4: EL 5 to low EL 6 APL 6: EL 9 to EL 10 APL 8: EL 12 APL 10: EL 14 to low EL 15 APL 12: EL 16 to EL 17 APL 14: EL 19 to EL 20 APL 16: EL 22 This assumes a balanced table with players of average strategy and tactics (stratics). This means a table of 5 with a tank/heavy, rogue, cleric, arcanist, and one other. Below average balance or stratics results in a much harder time; below in both makes it likely to TPK. Above average in one makes the mod easier, while in both makes it a cakewalk. (Side note: authors need to stop thinking of this as a game of us vs. them and if players want to build twinked out characters and walk a mod, let them. Write for the average players. Above average can play down in builds or stratics; average can't play up.) Add to this, at least for me, the fact that I run things more difficultly at high APLs. At low APLs, I let the players take things back to correct mistakes after their turn is over, give them advice, play strategy below what might be indicated if needed, etc. At high APLs, I do not offer advice, let people take things back after their turn, and I play strategy to the maximum extent indicated by creature intelligence. Combined with scaled ELs, this makes higher APLs much more deadly. This is just how I think difficulty should scale, especially in the Greyhawk campaign world. High level should be a privilege enjoyed by the truly elite, not a right for all. Finally, IUZ mods are known to be fairly difficult. People expect IUZ metaregional mods to be a bit harder and we usually deliver that. We've scaled back some recently and, in fact, the most recent mod I wrote hasn't killed anyone, AFAIK; however, they will continue to be a little more difficult than regionals and be scaled in difficulty similar to what I suggest above. Some authors prefer an easier challenge in general or for a particular mod, while others prefer a harder time. I will try to keep from seeing excesses either way, but some variance will happen. You should see some of what Casey writes, especially before editing :p Anyway, I'm sure there's more that I wrote before, but I have forgotten it. I've softened up quite a bit the past two years, especially at lower APLs. I'm still a hard*** at high APLs :)
Britt 12-03-06, 12:55 AM	Oh, and as Copper says ^, sometimes you just have a bad APL. Invariably, one of the APLs will be harder than the others just due to oversight or weird synergies that aren't foreseen. Just something to keep in mind.
Samwise 12-03-06, 01:46 AM	Hmmm . . . The EL:APL ratio is targeted at APLs 6 and 8. Below that, the ratio is more deadly than the DMG indicates; above that, the ratio is less deadly than the DMG indicates. If this is true, and I think it is, the simplest solution might be to change the ELs allowed per APL in adventures to achieve a better balance. Indeed, given your chart on the EL needed for a likely chance of a kill at a table, such a change would likely involve having less ELs allowed at low APLs and more allowed at high APLs, even if the xp awards per APL are not otherwise changed. From my experience, climax encounters should be about like the following to achieve what the DMG says should be moderately deadly with the possibility of one PC dying: Again, taking that as true, which again, I do, two questions suggest themselves. First, is such an encounter required every adventure? Particularly since that means we'd have one climax encounter out of every three encounters, it seems a bit excessive. One per character level seems more reasonable, which would be every 5-8 adventures instead. Second, given your follow-up statements of: Below average balance or stratics results in a much harder time; below in both makes it likely to TPK. and: (Side note: authors need to stop thinking of this as a game of us vs. them and if players want to build twinked out characters and walk a mod, let them. Write for the average players. Above average can play down in builds or stratics; average can't play up.) Which, still, both of which I agree with, also reduce the need for such encounters? Indeed, maybe those numbers should be lowered for the below average balanced and tactically adept parties? And, given the second, might not characters who wind up less than twinked out simply because of access be at an otherwise unreasonable disadvantage solely because of that, against suggesting a lower number of such encounters? Oh, and: Invariably, one of the APLs will be harder than the others just due to oversight or weird synergies that aren't foreseen. I also agree with that, and that it is a relevant point.
Britt 12-03-06, 01:55 AM	I'm not saying every adventure needs to have an encounter of that difficulty, just that that is about what you need to achieve the specified lethality. I definitely think there should be some variety. I'm of the opinion that we should write for average parties played by average players. Below average balance or players should have a harder time, IMO. If you suck at both, you should probably die and start asking why you die so much. Hopefully, that leads you to improve. While I don't think we should write for the uber characters or players, I also don't think we should babysit below average players or characters (except in APL 1 or 2). As to changing the ELs per adventure or even the xp/EL system, that has been discussed and I don't think it's likely to happen. Creighton has a new set of guidelines he's developed for Cores, but it still follows the same xp/EL and max ELs per mod breakdown, I believe. Other mods are going to continue using the same system, though I think a recent trend towards higher veracity of CRing/ELing and a lighter hand towards low APLs is improving the results. If my premises are true, a better system could probably be developed; however, many probably would dispute my premises and my overall view of how challenging mods should be. In the end, we're likely stuck with this system, for better or worse.
Samwise 12-03-06, 02:03 AM	I'm not saying every adventure needs to have an encounter of that difficulty, just that that is about what you need to achieve the specified lethality. I definitely think there should be some variety. Ah, OK. I just wanted to be sure. I'm of the opinion that we should write for average parties played by average players. Below average balance or players should have a harder time, IMO. If you suck at both, you should probably die and start asking why you die so much. Hopefully, that leads you to improve. While I don't think we should write for the uber characters or players, I also don't think we should babysit below average players or characters (except in APL 1 or 2). I still agree, I just wanted to note how those will affect results. As to changing the ELs per adventure or even the xp/EL system, that has been discussed and I don't think it's likely to happen. Creighton has a new set of guidelines he's developed for Cores, but it still follows the same xp/EL and max ELs per mod breakdown, I believe. Yep. I know. Other mods are going to continue using the same system, though I think a recent trend towards higher veracity of CRing/ELing and a lighter hand towards low APLs is improving the results. If my premises are true, a better system could probably be developed; however, many probably would dispute my premises and my overall view of how challenging mods should be. Well, I don't, for whatever that is worth. In the end, we're likely stuck with this system, for better or worse. Or until more people are convinced of those premises and it changes. :D
Lomiat 12-03-06, 02:23 AM	I've played in the Shield Lands, Dyvers, Highfolk, Verbobonc, and the Duchy of Urnst. Of those regions, Highfolk, by far, is consistently the deadliest. Dyvers mods, with a few exceptions (by author and minimum APL), tend to be more story-oriented and filled with fluffier combats. Verbobonc had some tough combats, but they were fairly straight-forward. The Duchy offered some weird stuff, but nothing truly mind-bending. The Shield Lands provides a lot of variance; we have some adventures that are true cake-walks and some that offer combats only half the tables that play them can defeat (the other half flee or die, or never get that far). But the Highfolk combats frequently push players to turn the tide of combat from the brink of TPK. It's not a good idea, however, to expect that a region is "easy," so you can play up all the time, or whatever. I played all the Year 5 SHL mods, except one, and I got my friends to play up so that I could play my wizard with them (this even required that one of the PCs invest in a war horse or riding dogs, or both, to get us to our APL), and then the mod turned out to be the first tough mod of the year. We suffered a near-TPK. So much for hubris...
Britt 12-03-06, 02:29 AM	On the Dyvers difficulty, I know from talking with Joe many times, that a lot of their problem is that Dyvers encounters feature humanoids almost exclusively. Classed humanoids tend to be a lower difficulty per calculated CR than critters, even when properly equipped per the DMG. If you stick even moderately close to the gold cap in LG mods, you quickly find your classed humanoids under-equipped and even less of a challenge for their CR relative to critters. The Dyvers Triad seems to like sticking close to the cap when possible, which I applaud, but this severely hampers their abilities in setting challenges. And they do seem to have a good line of stories, though I haven't played there in over a year :(
Japangirl 12-03-06, 03:10 AM	Casey and Theo mods can be wrong, just wrong! Iuz meta-regionals are fun though; where else do you get to talk to/be wooed by an epic red dragon?
Ramacass 12-03-06, 03:27 AM	Yes the combats were played correctly. I ran the game with the bulette. The only thing that stopped a TPK was the grace of Gwumph the halfling mounted charger who thinks he's a dwarf. He dealt the bulette two spirited charges each for about 40+ points of damage. The Fighter tank had the beast busy for the first two rounds but dropped to some wicked claw attacks. The bullete was now free to charge after gwumph and drop him or Boreis-his riding dog the nwho thinks he's a bore, next round but a lucky hit droped the beast. If Gwumph would have missed either of those charges it wold have been a very different battle. In my limited experience perrenland mods are way more dificult than core mods. The nation mocked series especially
Sutro 12-03-06, 05:11 AM	Sheldomar Valley metaregionals can be pretty dang tough. That said, I've only died in one so far (but it was an unrecoverable) - my other deaths came on Year 4 Yeomanry, (1) and Year 5 Verbobonc mods (3) (one unrecoverable). The Yeo mod and one of the Verb were simply crits; crits will happen so I can't say anything bad about that. The other two deaths in Verb were a combination of poor play and bad balance, although one mod, now retired, Minions of Shadow and Fire, is a mother. As far as consistent toughness goes, though, Sheldomars get it in my experience. While I've heard that other metaregionals are tough - VTF and IUZ - I've played in both of them and that just hasn't been my experience. In one SHE metaregional interactive, for example, there was a prismatic spray trap (DC 20) at APL 4. Can anyone beat that? -Sutro
Haro 12-03-06, 05:38 AM	Having played Perrenland, Ratik, Onnwal and Highfolk regionals and Iuz and NMR metas I agree with Britt regarding classed humanoid encounters and the relative difficulty. Perrenland & Iuz mods have a lot of evil outsider and undead encounters compared to (for example) NMR mods, which seem to feature a majority of classed humanoids. At Spring Revel Down Under, a disproportionate number of NMR metas finished well ahead of time due to Perrenders, built to take out Vrocks before their Dance of Death goes off, finding Pholtan flesh quite squishy. I find teamwork at the table increases greatly in Iuz mods because of the danger (or perception of). They should be tough too, look at what the PCs are up against! Ramacass, the 'A Nation Mocked' story arc is just warming up after 5 years. I've just finished writing the next one (my first mod) and it broadens the scope of the series. It should be called 'A Region Mocked'... Joe
Lupo 12-03-06, 08:50 AM	the deadlyness of a module often comes from a bad party composition (sometimes in general like playing way up, sometimes for a certain module like all charisma-drop-outs in an investigative/interaction module), from bad party cooperation (lately my druid was nearly eaten alive by ghouls-on-crack, because some party members where occupied with "doing there thingy"), from bad dm-ing (due to bad preperation, bad interpretation of the module) and only very seldom from a module itself. i have played: innspa/adrie/ahlissa, naerie/ahlissa, sunndi, dullstrand and ekbir regionals, splintered suns metaregionals and velverdyva metaregionals. velverdyva metaregionals are always deadly, splintered suns metaregionals can be anything from a role-playing challenge and therefore not combat intense (you can "loose" nevertheless, by not getting anything from the module) to the most deadly thing i have played (the module in question is deadly on every APL, but the encounter which is the most deadly varies from APL to APL). ciao martin m. ps: when a certain set group of characters encounter deadly module after deadly module (and other groups don't die the same rate), there might be a systematic error, either in party composition, party cooperation, APL range (don't play up when both caster types - arcane and divine - are 2 levels below APL, better play with divine below APL than arcane), or dm-ing. edit: a very dangerous APL range is 6 to 8, when certain mutts don't have yet iterative attacks (due to level dips in not full BAB classes), but the module assumes they can swing twice per round and caster types are assumed to have third level spells (power boost for arcane types) or fourth level spells (power boost for divine casters).
JamesMaissen 12-03-06, 11:32 AM	Indeed, maybe those numbers should be lowered for the below average balanced and tactically adept parties? Optimally I think the best solution would be to allow more freedom in what 'apl' you are playing at and allow the players to choose their own fate. If they find themselves with a very mismatched group (or a 4 person table that doesn't seem steamlined) they could choose down. Or if they wanted a tougher fight they could choose to play up. Now for rewards I would suggest it simply be the smaller of APL played and character level (or CL+1 to round up for odd levels). Thus if you play it safe the going will be slower, etc. This would also avoid abberant cases and experiences. The 1/2gold and xp rule is flawed in that it over penalizes small infractors while not doing enough on exgregious ones. A character at APL-3 finds himself with less reward than playing down, while a low level going through APL 14 winds up with a level's worth of gold for one mod (and even should they die and get raised they likely will make out better for gold). Anyway it would be nice to have an expected range of challenge should that prove possible. It would I would think smooth things out for people (to whatever extent it's possible). Also it could allow for more hollistic views on EL encounters, as we all know that there is great variance amongst them (compare say an APL 4 party facing an 8th level warrior with one facing a huge elemental). -James
Akhamshyy 12-03-06, 11:35 AM	I have to agree with those who consider the Keoland region the most difficult. It's not just a great place to play combat interactive in. It also has to do with the regions flavor. The Keoland royals are secular (i.e. there is no state religion) and the faiths are weakly organized there. They go so far as to make healing cost double in the region. Ten grand for a raise is steep... Then there are the secret police, I think there are at least three in the region too.
Randall Montgomery 12-03-06, 11:47 AM	I personally have only played Shield Lands and Highfolk, and I'd have to say I'd go with Shield Lands as being the deadlier. However, I've only played a small sample of SL modules (three, to be precise), and the Highfolk, Core, and Iuz meta mods I play with a weekly retail group that's been going for 2.5 years, so we've gotten the teamwork thing down pretty good. So far, I'm the only one in our group who's died, and it was during a core mod where I inadvertantly made a serious tactical error. Of the three SL mods, one was a cake walk, one nearly killed about half the party, and the last DID kill two members, and was seconds away from becoming a TPK. Fortunantly, my wizard and the mystic thurge who was in the party were able to dimension door everyone out before the hammer fell. Iuz metas can be deadly, (usually SOMEONE goes into negatives, but we've never lost anyone yet), but recently our party monk got a nice item from one of them that has considerably evened the playing field. Since then, the metas haven't worried us as much. :D
Marcia_S 12-03-06, 11:57 AM	I've played at least one mod in several different regions (most of them 8 or more): Veluna , Verbobonc, the Yeomanry, Dyvers, Furyondy, County of Urnst (just one), and, of course, my home region the Bandit Kingdoms. Although all have their own unique challenges, I have found the most (relative to the number of mods played) PC deaths and failed missions in the BK, with the Yeomanry a close second. Heck, in one Dyvers mod, the only table that was playing a mod that I hadn't yet played was playing at APL 12. The only character that had any TUs left was my 4th level (3 HD) centaur. The GM said "don't worry, you'll be fine, as long as you don't go into melee". In the BK, that would have been a death sentence and anyone who knew about BK mods would have gone to see a movie rather than play. Anyways, that's my take on it. Of the regions I've played in, the BK has been the most dangerous, then the Yeomany. Heck, even our intro mods are TPK-worthy, as they are written at APL 2 (e.g. EL 4 and 5 encounters), assuming equipment, HPs, and experienced players that brand new characters won't necessarily have. Marcia
Britt 12-03-06, 12:08 PM	Heck, even our intro mods are TPK-worthy, as they are written at APL 2 (e.g. EL 4 and 5 encounters), assuming equipment, HPs, and experienced players that brand new characters won't necessarily have. Sorry, I have to chime in and say that isn't true. The intro encounter in the BK about which I have heard the most complaints is incapable of killing PCs. There have been troublesome intros in the past like that (years ago), some encounters can be tough, and level 1s are notoriously fragile, but as a whole the above statement is incorrect. I can say from editing and internal conversations, intro ELs in the BK (with proabably a rare exception) do not go above EL 3 or maybe a low EL 4.
Marcia_S 12-03-06, 12:26 PM	Yes, Britt, I know that you guys in the BK don't ever consider anything except the numeric CR calculations in the EL, ignoring terrain, pre-buffs, and external factors that favor the NPCs. My one and ONLY TPK as a GM was in a BK intro mod where the PCs were facing many groups of orcs with falchions (2d4+4 with an 18-20 crit range) in rapid succession and a 3rd level caster. BK mod authors find every trick in the book to increase the difficulty of an encounter without actually changing the CR of the creatures and then "call" it the lower EL. I would say that of the BK mods I've played in, run, and heard about, at least 1 in 4 ends badly (e.g. much less than max exp/gold/access, mission failure/running away, favors missed, wanted score increased, character deaths, etc.). There are a few Core mods that put even the worst BK mod to shame, but compared to other regions I've played in, the BK seems to be the most dangerous. Which is why I so rarely run BK mods (mostly just the "good" intros), anymore. Marcia
Britt 12-03-06, 12:40 PM	Marcia, I'm going to be nice and leave it at this: you need to keep your insults of me, the Triad, and the BK authors to yourself or in private. They are uncalled for, untrue, and misrepresentative of the region. Also, you need to start talking with more players, as your "numbers" do not mesh with the rest of the region. I'm very confident that between me, Casey, Theo, and Susan, we have seen many times more BDK mods run than you have, and they do not at all come close to a 25% failure rate. I'm not disputing your claim that BDK mods are deadly or that you think they are the deadliest mods. Those are subjective claims that I could not, nor do I want to, dispute. I am disputing your claims about ELs and assumptions and abilities of writers.
Sieylianna 12-03-06, 01:30 PM	I've played in a significant number of modules in Veluna, Verbobonc, Highfolk, Furyondy, Geoff and Nyrond and a handful in other regions. I've also played VTF, NMR and IUZ metaregionals. I find the largest number of dead PCs in Highfolk regionals. I've also found that VTF modules were the most deadly of all. That said, the author is a major factor. Avoiding modules by authors with "broken" PCs is highly recommended, they tend to write to challenge their own PCs, which is deadly for those who aren't as optimized. Ed
Akhamshyy 12-03-06, 01:38 PM	Lets remember death isn't the only danger here. There're places where actions can cause unforeseen repercussions. Items being eaten, or sundered can end a career just as fast as an unrecoverable death. Not dieing is a great motivate, but so is retaining your sanity, or freedom. Getting arrested, captured and/or enslaved can be an ever-present danger for some PCs in some regions. That's why I chose Keoland; being as how simply casting some spells in front of an ignorant commoner can land you in trouble there. I've never played an Iuz meta-regional mod but I'm sure they offer similar dangers.
Drezden 12-03-06, 02:12 PM	I have played a fair sampling of mods in Keoland, Bissel, Ket, Veluna and Nyrond. Of those, I have found Keoland mods to be the hardest, and Sheldomar Meta-Regionals to be particularly deadly. Both are certainly significantly harder than Core mods. Of course, there is still plenty of variance - even among authors. One author wrote an extremely deadly Year 5 mod, and then its sequel in Year 6 eas fairly easy. However, I do agree with a previous poster that most authors who have optimized characters will tend to write harder combats - so as to challenge characters that they have/would play. Daren
copper_wyrmling 12-03-06, 04:36 PM	Casey and Theo mods can be wrong, just wrong! Iuz meta-regionals are fun though; where else do you get to talk to/be wooed by an epic red dragon? Yeah, my wild mage (19 years old, Chaotic Good, fluent in Draconic and fascinated by dragons, Charisma 23, Wisdom 8) found that encounter very interesting indeed. She wasn't so happy when she found out about the consequences, though... ;)
Haro 12-03-06, 06:18 PM	Yeah, my wild mage (19 years old, Chaotic Good, fluent in Draconic and fascinated by dragons, Charisma 23, Wisdom 8) found that encounter very interesting indeed. She wasn't so happy when she found out about the consequences, though... ;) Aw c'mon Tracey, you loved it that he chose Azrien over Luna! You need a character tent that says something along the lines of "Azrien, voted sexiest Sorceror 596CY". You could be the inaugural winner of an Iuzie Award. Joe
garyjohnson 12-03-06, 06:54 PM	Does anyone have an opinion as to what is the most dangerous region. I played for a while without a region, just sticking to core mods, our group had very few fatalities until Thailand got included into Perrenland and since then just about every mod has a near TPK. Don't get me wrong Perrenland is great I also enjoy the mods more with the ever present threat but is it normal to go up against Bulette in a APL 4, or 3 vampire spawn, and let's not even get started on the Babau demon (CR 6) that summoned another Babau before attacking in an APL 4 Wicked Welcome to Perrenland - hope you enjoy fighting vampires and demons. :-) My experience (Perrenland only - until two months ago, other regions were for those who could afford to visit North America or Europe) is that Cores are easier than Perrenland regionals until you get used to the sort of opponents the authors tend to use (the aforementioned vampires and demons) and prepare your characters for dealing with those sorts of opponents. When that happened for me and my regular gaming group, Perrenland regionals "dropped back" to being as hard as Cores. Iuz metaregional scenarios are a mixed bag, depending on the author and their home region. Cheers, Gary Johnson
JohnduBois 12-03-06, 10:40 PM	I also want to clarify (as I should have a number of posts ago, but RHoD got in the way) that I think that while the Iuz metaregionals are tough and have untiered encounters, in NO situation have I thought that the untiered or difficult encounters were inappropriate for the context of the adventure. One does not simply walk into Dorakka, and if you try to play in the land of the demigod who almost took on half the Flanaess, you should expect things to be fiendishly difficult (pun intended).
Gwumph 12-03-06, 10:59 PM	Hi Gwumph here I was with Ramacass for this fight and to touch on a couple of points people have made. We played this at APL 4 Party composition: 1 5th Lv Fighter/Paldin 1 4th Lv Cleric 1 4th Lv Wizard 1 3rd Lv Barbarian 1 3rd Lv Hexblade Overall i would say our paty composition is very good. I liked to think we used the best tactics we could. Admittedly the DM might have called the second Demon a little to early. The thing for me was a point just raised by Akhamsky "Lets remember death isn't the only danger here. There're places where actions can cause unforeseen repercussions. Items being eaten, or sundered can end a career just as fast as an unrecoverable death." These demon's (Babue) had this protective slime, that did 1D8 points of damage per hit. Most weapons only have 10 hitpoints. Therefor most weapons would be destroyed after 3 hits. We attacked with our best cold iron weapons first. If I had been a standing sword swinging fighter it would have taken way more than 3 hits to kill this thing. which meant I would have been reduced to a normal weapon (it was convievable to loose all my weapons to this slime and be left weaponless) So a single babue is an CR6, summoning a friend is a standard tactic which makes it an effective EL8 encounter at an APL 4 Level. I guess mine and Rama's question is; Is this normal for Perrenland where we will be fighting in encounters that are twice are party level??
Haro 12-03-06, 11:15 PM	So a single babue is an CR6, summoning a friend is a standard tactic which makes it an effective EL8 encounter at an APL 4 Level. I guess mine and Rama's question is; Is this normal for Perrenland where we will be fighting in encounters that are twice are party level?? By that logic I guess when my Alienist summons monsters that the APL of our party should change? Of course not! The Babau is a CR6 creature partially because it has that ability, the same goes for a PC spellcasting class that can summon allies. :-) I know the encounter you are talking about and yes, it's pretty tough. In Perrenland, as many have stated, you fight lots of undead and demons due to the location. Seldom are you placed in 'box text surprise' and usually have time to apply silversheen or oil of bless weapon to help out (or summon a celestial bison to tank for you!). I can't recall any '3 fights in one day' modules off the top of my head either. Actually there's one. That's a big help... Joe
JohnduBois 12-03-06, 11:19 PM	Hi Gwumph here I was with Ramacass for this fight and to touch on a couple of points people have made. We played this at APL 4 Party composition: 1 5th Lv Fighter/Paldin 1 4th Lv Cleric 1 4th Lv Wizard 1 3rd Lv Barbarian 1 3rd Lv Hexblade Overall i would say our paty composition is very good. I liked to think we used the best tactics we could. Admittedly the DM might have called the second Demon a little to early. The thing for me was a point just raised by Akhamsky "Lets remember death isn't the only danger here. There're places where actions can cause unforeseen repercussions. Items being eaten, or sundered can end a career just as fast as an unrecoverable death." These demon's (Babue) had this protective slime, that did 1D8 points of damage per hit. Most weapons only have 10 hitpoints. Therefor most weapons would be destroyed after 3 hits. We attacked with our best cold iron weapons first. If I had been a standing sword swinging fighter it would have taken way more than 3 hits to kill this thing. which meant I would have been reduced to a normal weapon (it was convievable to loose all my weapons to this slime and be left weaponless) So a single babue is an CR6, summoning a friend is a standard tactic which makes it an effective EL8 encounter at an APL 4 Level. I guess mine and Rama's question is; Is this normal for Perrenland where we will be fighting in encounters that are twice are party level?? With more specificity in the description, I can give some more specific commentary. First, on paper, your party is underpowered. When I write adventures, when I think "balance", I think, "What can I reasonably expect five PCs at APL to have?" Your party averages out at APL 3.8, and while you're an APL 4 party, you're technicallt a weak one. Tactics and PC twinking may change this balance, but if I was sitting at that table, I would expect more risk than usual. Second, if the babau does not summon its friend prior to combat, the second babau is not considered to be part of the encounter level (I know this follows LG writing guidelines and I believe also the guidelines in the DMG, although I don't have a DMG reference for it). While the summoning is quite powerful, demons are not supposed to use it unless they are in mortal danger and even then sparingly (not to mention that your party was slightly unlucky that it worked). I think that this is something that DMs should be reminded of in the adventure text, but that's just my opinion. If a DM tells you that this is a "standard tactic", I advise you to point them in the direction of page 40 of the 3.5 Monster Manual. While the tactic may be used, I would by no means consider it standard. Third, while babau slime is particularly nasty (I've lost many weapons to it myself), the slime is considered part of the creature's CR. Again, I don't know the particulars of the adventure (since I'm WAY far away from Perrenland), but it seems like the extra challenge of the adventure came from the DM jumping the gun on things and a little bit of unluckiness, not "an effective EL 8 encounter at APL 4". These are just the opinions of a relative nobody, but I don't think I'm on the fringe of the community.
garyjohnson 12-04-06, 12:14 AM	Hi Gwumph here I guess mine and Rama's question is; Is this normal for Perrenland where we will be fighting in encounters that are twice are party level?? Hi, Gwumph! It sounds like you've had several tough encounters in several scenarios, which isn't a lot of fun. :-( That said, I don't think it was an EL 8 (APL+4) encounter - just an EL 6 encounter that got worse than an "average" EL 6 because the DM got lucky with the summon roll and you maybe got unlucky with the summon happening "too early". For what it's worth, I recall more of this sort of "potentially under-ELed" encounters in Year 5 than Year 6 - but that may be because I played most of Year 6 with my higher-level primary character and most of Year 5 with my lower-level secondary character. Higher level characters tend to have more resources, and thus more flexibility. Your party looks a little weak - I always worry for front-line fighters who start out below APL (like the 3rd level Barbarian), because they often have difficulty absorbing the punishment being dished out by the monsters - but it sounds like you were reasonably prepared, had cold iron weapons, and so on. You mentioned that the babau summoned a second babau - did any of the spellcasters use protection from evil to keep the summoned babau from getting into melee with the front-line fighters? As others have mentioned, you were unlucky to have the second babau turn up in the first place (40% chance of success), but having to deal with two babau certainly wouldn't help - they're dangerous in combat because of their weapon-destroying slime and their ability to do sneak attack damage, so a second babau brings one of their combat abilities into play. If you keep on finding seemingly-unbalanced encounters in Year 6 Perrenland regionals, I recommend reading the scenario in case there's something the DM overlooked, or your group got unlucky with a random roll, or the like. If there isn't something in the scenario that explains why the encounter seemed unbalanced but isn't actually unbalanced, contact the Triad and raise your concerns with them. If enough people raise the same concern, they may revise the scenario. Cheers, Gary Johnson
Maesto 12-04-06, 12:40 AM	Demons summoning demons is a pain, usually because it makes things just that much tougher. The lesson you should take away from this is that every character should have two (if not more) potions of protection from evil to screw over such summons =) Welcome to Perrenland, where we take their heads, they take our weapons, and our gold runs away when the vampire turns to gas with his coffin "beyond the scope of the module". Anybody else play that mod at APL 12 without a RSoP?
Gwumph 12-04-06, 01:40 AM	Thanks everyone for your support Here in Bangkok we have been playing Lg for about 8 months and Perrenland for 2 months. We have a core group of about 8 players, so we can't really change the group make-up, (most of us are still growing our primary characters) and we have had like 5 tough mods in a row, in which there have been 2 character deaths, and many many near deaths. We are all around Level 4-5, but it is hard to level up when your character dies every 8 or so mods. We continue to struggle on, us weary band of brothers striving to make our adopted home Perrenland (almost every character emigrated from Greyhawk city to Perrenland to help in the war) safe from forces of evil. {on the plus side.. no one makes fun of the halfing who thinks he is a dwarf anymore :D }
Britt 12-04-06, 02:13 AM	the vampire turns to gas with his coffin "beyond the scope of the module". Two words: antimagic field ;)
Morgen 12-04-06, 02:43 AM	Where ever you fight the most elementals will be the toughests encounters. I hate them so much! Especially the flyers! I would have to go with the Iuz Metaregion though. We've walked a couple of them, but they tend to have the most insane out of now where kinds of creatures. Last on the list? Nyron (Ny-yawn). ;) PS-Just teasing. Calling an 8 month skirmish a "war." Tisk-tisk.
solbergb 12-04-06, 12:32 PM	Lets see....deaths at the table including those that favors reversed (ie death would have occurred if favor not present). Any of these with real spoilers are already retired Me: Core special, where we made a fatigue-related mental error Duchy of Urnst mod that said "don't play up, don't play with unbalanced party etc" where social stuff destroyed the cohesion of our party end ended up combining two difficult fights... Ket interactive where DM did multiple natural weapon attacks inside a grapple (without rake) and due to fatigue and a favor I had, I didn't argue like I should have. Bandit kingdoms regional, I was playing up, burned a favor to reroll/shake off a disintegrate that *probably* would have left me a pile of ash if I failed the save. Other people's characters: Nyrond mod...APl4 vs "pain monster" - a fiend that does damage to the party if you damage it. We had someone unusually squishy at the table and didn't know it till he croaked after we poked the monster a couple times. A couple deaths with module in playtest/early drafts (one Pale minimission, one Nyrond Metaregional). That's what playtests are for. Pale minimission APL2 guy with 2000gp who died because he didn't spend the gp on armor before the module. He awoke after being raised with his cash converted to masterwork fullplate by the party. Core mod where a wizard forgot about his wand of fireballs and instead took an AOO from a badly wounded invisible stalker to move where he could cast without having to roll for defenseive, which proceeded to crit. 2 deaths in a core special due to a combination of very bad rolls from us, very good rolls from DM and a few questionable moves by us (percentage plays that went bad instead of taking safer options) Tusmit regional where we'd pulled the whole party back to a defensible location and the sorcerer decided to break away from the party and charge into danger so he could target a spell...took him and the cleric who went to rescue him. Earlier in that regional the same sorc died mostly because we set up the party marching order wrong and had our rear undefended (and him in the rear) Nyrond metaregional - party member rolled "1" on save vs chaos beast and suicided. (raising while still human is easier than dealing with consequences of full blown corporeal instability) Conclusion: I've seen deaths in every region I've played (BK, Pale, Duchy, Nyrond, Ket, Tusmit, Core), but as a rule they're rare and only core specials and similar modules advertised as unusually deadly are actually more dangerious by the numbers. The proximate cause of death is almost always a noticable player error, usually mixed with a bit of bad luck. While prepping modules, what I usually see is that a given APL is unusually dangerous, but this happens with core mods, regionals, metaregionals, minimissions and interactives evenhandedly.... If there are more deadly regions, I've not played in them yet.
solbergb 12-04-06, 12:34 PM	These demon's (Babue) had this protective slime, that did 1D8 points of damage per hit. Most weapons only have 10 hitpoints. Therefor most weapons would be destroyed after 3 hits. We attacked with our best cold iron weapons first. Those demons have a reflex save to avoid damage. Magic weapons have more hitpoints. size large weapons (eg, enlarge, rightous might) have more hitpoints. Make whole can repair any weapon not totally destroyed. It's just an ability. Most parties cope pretty well with it...better than with rust monsters for certain. I've run a lot of encounters with that monster and while a couple nonmagical secondary weapons got destroyed, I've never seen any weapon the owner cared about getting all the way melted.
solbergb 12-04-06, 12:43 PM	Also, you need to start talking with more players, as your "numbers" do not mesh with the rest of the region. I'm very confident that between me, Casey, Theo, and Susan, we have seen many times more BDK mods run than you have, and they do not at all come close to a 25% failure rate. As an unbiased observer from the NMR, I did not find the year 5 and early year 6 BK mods harder or easier than stuff from other regions. The FLAVOR is different. But not the encounter difficulty. When we had trouble, it was because of weak convention parties (as in a APL10 midnight madness where our level 12 mounted tank didn't show up due to another table running long and we went ahead anyway with an APL9 4 person+cohort party) or due to players forgetting the mission constraints (we had a guy destroy the thing we were told NOT TO DESTROY in the middle of a fight) or roleplay considerations when the PC's didn't agree on the right course of action (BK mods being fairly grey) In fact I have to give kudos on one particular adventure, where the CR was clearly bumped because of NPC assistance...and the NPC's ACTUALLY PULLED THEIR WEIGHT!!! (amazing....) They really did deal with their share of the bad guys, and draw sufficient fire to make the encounter fair. Also...I don't consider having your wanted score going up to be a "mission failure". For most PC's, it's a sign that you actually accomplished something :) Wanted scores going down usually means you knuckled under and compromised and felt kinda dirty about it... For actual numbers, lets see, 12 rounds including midnight madness and interactive, one clearly botched job, one where we couldn't cleanly win (but got full xp/gold) because we didn't play earlier mods in series and lacked the skills/abilities to make up for lack of plot tokens, one where the party knuckled under and gave away the plot token that would have made the other mod a success over my objections :) (*I* wanted to fight the final encounter. I really didn't WANT Lady X liking me that much...) So you could look at it as a 25% failure rate, but to me, only the 1 in 12 was really a failure and that was 100% our fault, not the module.
Ramacass 12-04-06, 07:52 PM	Hi Gwumph here I was with Ramacass for this fight and to touch on a couple of points people have made. We played this at APL 4 Party composition: 1 5th Lv Fighter/Paldin 1 4th Lv Cleric 1 4th Lv Wizard 1 3rd Lv Barbarian 1 3rd Lv Hexblade I guess mine and Rama's question is; Is this normal for Perrenland where we will be fighting in encounters that are twice are party level?? Hold on there Gwumph, speak for yourself and let me speak for myself. This thread was NOT I repeat NOT to complain about Perrenland or the difficulty of Perrenland mods. I REALLY like Perrenland- the story, the overall theme, and the challenge. I was sort of hoping to hear that in fact Perrenland is one of the most dangerous regions so I could feel proud about playing in one of the more dangerous areas, facing the danger of Iuz and his minions. If fighting Iuz were any less dangerous it wouldn't feel right I am also well aware that the CR for summoned creatures is figured into the CR of the creature who summoned them. It just really increases the challenge of the fight when it works. (40% chance) What I'm also aware of but just forgot about is the good old protection from evil vs summoned creature bit. I think it's clear the DM for the game with the Babu played it wrong. He summoned the second babu before we even knew what the threat was and then charged in with two babu on a flatfooted party. Now the bullete that was wicked strong, wicked dangerous, and wicked cool
Lomiat 12-04-06, 09:32 PM	Hold on there Gwumph, speak for yourself and let me speak for myself. This thread was NOT I repeat NOT to complain about Perrenland or the difficulty of Perrenland mods. I REALLY like Perrenland- the story, the overall theme, and the challenge. I was sort of hoping to hear that in fact Perrenland is one of the most dangerous regions so I could feel proud about playing in one of the more dangerous areas, facing the danger of Iuz and his minions. If fighting Iuz were any less dangerous it wouldn't feel right Well, I can't say much about Perrenland as my only contact with the region was through its brief represenation in a couple Iuz metaregionals... but if you're looking for a tough fight, you're welcome to come to the Shield Lands where I can try to arrange the TPK of your choice. I might not succeed, y'know, but I wouldn't want you to go away disappointed. :P In the meantime, I have to say that, bar none, the meanest fight any of my characters were in was in an Iuz mod (still active) where my fully-buffed wizard found himself at -55 HP after 2 rounds, never once having put himself in a threatened position. So, uh... to allude to a different thread, my wizard votes NOT to ban Delay Death.
clannagh 12-04-06, 09:38 PM	Now the bullete that was wicked strong, wicked dangerous, and wicked cool Not an advanced bullette ? Only 9 HD put it too sleep. As for IUZ we always played down for IUZ and never took a party of less than 5. Our local assessment of IUZ in general is those mods are only suitable for balanced parties of competent characters that worked well together. IUZ is totally unsuitable to throw at random parties that turn up at a retial day or games day. You can guarantee a TPK in that situation.l I do not have a lot to compare with but I have now played almost all of NMR year 5 meta's and I would assess the hardest couple of NMR mods as combat equivalent with an average IUZ.
clannagh 12-04-06, 09:42 PM	Thanks everyone for your support Here in Bangkok we have been playing Lg for about 8 months and Perrenland for 2 months. We have a core group of about 8 players, so we can't really change the group make-up, (most of us are still growing our primary characters) and we have had like 5 tough mods in a row, in which there have been 2 character deaths, and many many near deaths. We are all around Level 4-5, but it is hard to level up when your character dies every 8 or so mods. We continue to struggle on, us weary band of brothers striving to make our adopted home Perrenland (almost every character emigrated from Greyhawk city to Perrenland to help in the war) safe from forces of evil. {on the plus side.. no one makes fun of the halfing who thinks he is a dwarf anymore :D } The compensation in IUZ if you survive is better than average frequency of favors that may substantially increase your ability to survive next time.
copper_wyrmling 12-04-06, 11:05 PM	As for IUZ we always played down for IUZ and never took a party of less than 5. Our local assessment of IUZ in general is those mods are only suitable for balanced parties of competent characters that worked well together. IUZ is totally unsuitable to throw at random parties that turn up at a retial day or games day. You can guarantee a TPK in that situation. *giggles* I remember playing Blue Scales, Red Secrets... at APL 12... in a midnight madness slot... with a party consisting of three sorcerers, a spellsword/sorcerer/dragon disciple, and a fighter/exotic weapon master. My L10 sorcerer (with Con 12) was the only person who could even use a Wand of Cure Light Wounds (with UMD). It was *great* :) (Note: our experience in that mod was later described as "The 101 Uses of Teleport". Do not try playing this mod with an unbalanced party at home, at least unless you too have a party where the majority of PCs have teleportation magic on-tap ;) ) That said, yeah, I agree with you. Try to avoid weak parties in Iuz mods.
The_Jester 12-05-06, 12:52 PM	VTFs can be pretty nasty. Most of the mods there all but require a balanced table of five with decent tactics. I've seen a couple player meatgrinder mods (multiple encounters that did not give xp, bottleneck situations, all the gold at the boss, no chance to rest, etc) where you need a couple crazy-tanks to keep up with the damage dealt. Saw one where the tank (L6 paladin in an APL6) was almost dropped in single non-critical hit. I've seen some easier ones too, especially ones in a part of a series (which tend to be story orientated) or ones listed as investigative or role-playing.
Bogjob 12-05-06, 01:14 PM	Onnwal regional starter mods are a nightmare, everyone I have played in have been pant wetting escapades. One starter mod had creatures in it that could only be hit by magical weapons and this was when you were escaping in your underwear from mine in which you were a slave. This years have been similar. Battle for Vandrell ONWI5-01, 1st level PCs only, one round Regional Introductory scenario by Alasdair Coutts & Andy MacPhee The small town of Vandrell stands within the foothills of the mighty Headlands. For decades the ravages of war have ignored this hamlet; even the recent rebellion against the Scarlet Sign has had little or no impact, save the increased trade between Free Onnwal and the Ahlissan state on the back of their new alliance. However, now a new threat from an unexpected quarter is about to descend on the inhabitants of this peaceful community. Official listing & download - RPGA database entry - Nyrond website review Warning: very dangerous, playing with a full table and some dogs is recommended. Note the last line. I can tell you they weren't kidding ! This coupled with fact our country is wrecked, our dwarf allies are having a religious jihad in their halls (so my dwarf cant go home as he's been labelled a heretic) and the Flan tribes are going to war along with/because of a huge increase in the undead ! Any wonder I stay in Greyhawk.
Genghis Cohen 12-05-06, 05:51 PM	I played mods from 7 regions this year: Bissel, Furyondy, Geoff, Gran March, Keoland, Principality of Ulek, and the Yeomanry. The Keoland mods were the toughest, but at least there are no undead in Keoland. Sheldomar metaregional mods are no walk in the park either.
reddingstacey 12-05-06, 05:56 PM	I have played in Naerie, Duchy of Urnst, Pale, Nyrond, Dyvers, Shield Lands, Verbobonc, Veluna, Furyondy, Yeomanry, Bandit Kingdoms, and Keoland. Keoland has been the deadliest for me. I lost 2 characters permanently in one weekend. First was during an interactive where I was critted with a falchion from an orc and was reincarnated as a kobold. The second was during a Keoland mod where 2 characters *spoiler* effectively splitting the party as the rest of the group did not see or hear from them again (they actually survived) we tried to go back to town and were attacked by *spoiler* that the remaining party members had difficulty damaging (I don't think we did a single HP of damage) and could not outrun. We died and were not recovered. If you go to Keoland reccomend you bring your A game and play down. VTFs are the most vicous of the metaregionals that I have played. Not only deadly, but also many ways to damage a character without killing him. Best regards, Stacey
Drezden 12-05-06, 08:55 PM	My experience has been different. Most of the situations I have seen as either a DM or player where there were multiple PC deaths and/or PCs fled have been due to overly dangerous encounters. Here are some I remember: As a Player: 1. APL2 - Keoland Mod - 3 deaths - having Large creatures that specialize in Bullrushing opponents when the fight is 60' on a platform is pretty hard. :) Tomb of TPK. That was the 4th mod of LG I ever played. 3 of the players at that table never played LG again. 2. APL10 - Core Special - 2 deaths - mismatched table + very hard (as usual) Core Special = recipe for disaster 3. APL8 - Nyrond Regional - 4 deaths - very close to TPK - very, very hard buffed opponents in a tactical environment that benefited them. 4. APL6 - Keoland Mod - 2 deaths - Cone of Cold + Fireball in surprise round - Ouch! As a DM 1. APL4 - Keoland Mod - 2 failed tables - 1 death (6 knocked unconscious) 4 raging, bullstrengthed Barbarians with a buffer Cleric, cleave and power attack (26 stregth) is a bit much for APL4. 2. APL6 - Keoland Mod - 3 deaths - Large flying opponents with reach, power attack and nasty abilities - ouch. 3. APL10 - Sheldomar Mod - 3 deaths - 1 (CR14) ridicuously powerful opponent with almost no weaknesses, incredible defensive abilities and several save or die type abilites. 4. APL10 - Keoland Battle Interactive - 1 death, table fled at my urging. Table had no shot - they were still fighting Wave 1 (and losing), when Wave 2 was about to start. After overly hard encounters, I would rate critical hits as the single biggest source of PC deaths. Daren [snip] Conclusion: I've seen deaths in every region I've played (BK, Pale, Duchy, Nyrond, Ket, Tusmit, Core), but as a rule they're rare and only core specials and similar modules advertised as unusually deadly are actually more dangerious by the numbers. The proximate cause of death is almost always a noticable player error, usually mixed with a bit of bad luck. While prepping modules, what I usually see is that a given APL is unusually dangerous, but this happens with core mods, regionals, metaregionals, minimissions and interactives evenhandedly.... If there are more deadly regions, I've not played in them yet.
The_Jester 12-06-06, 12:22 AM	VTFs are the most vicous of the metaregionals that I have played. Not only deadly, but also many ways to damage a character without killing him. Like having a giant (reach!!) and Improved Sunder whose tactics specifically have him targeting valuable equipment? Nasty stuff.
Madfox11 12-06-06, 04:52 AM	I am going to refrain from commenting on what is the most deadly region. To be honest, I couldn't be able to answer it fairly anyway. I only played in three regions and in two out of the three cases I did it with a couple of great DMs and a superb group of players. It always suprises me how big an impact the quality of players and DMs have on the ultimate deadliness of an adventure. Adventures can be hard and unfair, but in most cases I witnessed PCs die it was a combination of a hard encounter where either the DM made the battle even harder by a mistake, the players did something stupid or there was a string of bad dice rolls. For example, I know several local players who would blame themselves if they faced large flying opponents with reach without being able to do something about it at APL 6. They have that scroll or potion of fly with them for such situations, and their fighters always have a spare glaive or long spear and a potion of enlarge person at hand. Note though that I say *most* since I have seen unfair encounters often enough (most notably at APL 2 and 4). I still appologize for those giant crocodiles to the players in my region. That encounter prooved to be a lot more lethal than was my intent... even with the +1 EL for environment factored in (which strictly speaking was not even necessary since it was the natural environment for crocodiles). P.S. Reach opponents with Improved Sunder are pretty common since many giants have it. Personally I found the pseudonatural black pudding much worse...
Lupo 12-06-06, 05:56 AM	<snip> Note though that I say *most* since I have seen unfair encounters often enough (most notably at APL 2 and 4). I still appologize for those giant crocodiles to the players in my region. That encounter prooved to be a lot more lethal than was my intent... even with the +1 EL for environment factored in (which strictly speaking was not even necessary since it was the natural environment for crocodiles). <snip>... yea, my halfling druid is soooooooooooooo fed up with giant crocs (actually he is fed up with being seen as snack by the crocs) that he casts "hide from animals" for the whole party 24/7. no matter where and what environment :D some very deadly modules from the past were especcially nasty due to the infamous 3 to 3.5 conversion. where NPCs still were buffed all day long with a bull's strenght, but PCs weren't. and writers assumed an "endure elements" would provide resistance fire/cold 5 :rolleyes: . ciao martin m.
Samwise 12-06-06, 11:21 AM	Keoland: Where the crocodiles have racing stripes. :evillaugh
Lomiat 12-06-06, 05:48 PM	yea, my halfling druid is soooooooooooooo fed up with giant crocs (actually he is fed up with being seen as snack by the crocs) that he casts "hide from animals" for the whole party 24/7. no matter where and what environment :D I played in one terrifically amusing mod where our party was on a raft, floating down the river, when two crocodiles showed up (APL 4, I think). I double-checked the PHB quickly and decided that my bard would fascinate one (since it didn't actually have to understand me), and the rest of the party delayed until our druid charmed the other one. We floated by and were, somehow, later granted access to crocodile boots. Some party was very, very naughty to go and poach our crocodile friends!
kenobi65 12-06-06, 06:05 PM	I played in one terrifically amusing mod where our party was on a raft, floating down the river, when two crocodiles showed up (APL 4, I think). I double-checked the PHB quickly and decided that my bard would fascinate one (since it didn't actually have to understand me), and the rest of the party delayed until our druid charmed the other one. We floated by and were, somehow, later granted access to crocodile boots. Some party was very, very naughty to go and poach our crocodile friends! Oooh, I think I've played that one. Crocs just about ate our elf sorcerer. At least I earned those crocodile boots. :D
solbergb 12-06-06, 08:40 PM	My experience has been different. Most of the situations I have seen as either a DM or player where there were multiple PC deaths and/or PCs fled have been due to overly dangerous encounters. Here are some I remember: It is interesting that the entire overlap in our regions is the one nyrond module, and while I've played quite a few Nyrond mods, I either didn't hit the one you hit or perhaps my party was just good at that kind of environment, or it might have been an APL scaling thing. The Pale has a couple modules that at very specific APL's were unusually deadly. Without prepping the mod it is very hard to tell if you were the victim of an unusually hard module or just hit the one poorly scaled encounter that wasn't properly playtested in the 6 APL ranges covered. I've seen that kind of anomoly in the three "regions" I've prepped (Nyrond metaregionals, Pale and Core) so I tend to discount isolated extremely tough encounters in a given region if they only occur once in a convention. Granted it's harder to ignore if you're the victim of such an encounter. But it does seem to be the nature of the beast. Our local authors worry about that stuff and I've become fairly popular for playtests because they know I'll put in the time to do combat simulations on every encounter for every APL. But I know that level of testing is fairly rare. The time schedules in authoring a module really limit what can be done if it covers a broad APL range. I agree with another poster though that having a whole table full of experienced players has a huge mitigating factor on even the most dangerous encounters. Even if it just means they know how to do an extraction that may fail the mission but keep everybody alive. (ie, NOT having one guy charge when the other 5 decide to retreat etc)
solbergb 12-06-06, 08:49 PM	>4. APL6 - Keoland Mod - 2 deaths - Cone of Cold + Fireball in surprise round - Ouch! This kind of encounter I always watch for when prepping the mod. This is one of those patterns of encounter where party mix will have a lot to do with how easy it is handled. A four person party of L7 characters will have zero deaths. Their hitpoint buffer is sufficient as is their ability to vaporize the source of damage and/or do mass healing. A 6 person party of level 4-6 characters will have the "squishies" explode, and will now be a four person party of level 5-6 characters that will be a lot closer to death than the 4 person L7 party. A five person party with one L7 and a bunch of L4s will be headed straight for TPK. A party with a good scout or otherwise forwarned might walk over the entire encounter, because they won't be all clumped up to suck up the big zaps, or may use illusions or decoys to draw them away from party members. This encounter is much more punishing to a party that has to "spring" ambushes rather than detecting them. Front loaded big offense that can reach the back rank is always hard on large parties with squshies. The 4 person "play down" parties or the related "one big guy and a bunch of little guys" parties by contrast are exceedingly vulnerable to effects or damage that concentrates on one person and removes them early. A bigger % of their total offense is removed. If the playtest party didn't match the danger pattern, this may not be perceived by the author. Other encounters may be defeated by a unlucky bad guy die roll and also essentially go unplaytested. It isn't always malice aforethought that leads to unusually dangerous encounters. I'd look for patterns of overly powerful encounters on an author by author basis. Those I have found - some authors are just nastier than others. Sometimes I like that (we have one local author who's awfully good at making classed humanoid encounters actually dangerous even at high APLs without resorting to anything more in the way of noncore feats/prcs/spells/etc than a typical PC will have, and with less equipment). Sometimes I'm not so fond of it (an author that's left our metaregion had several famously badly CR'd encounters and also had some flat out rule violations which made monsters more danagerous including one CR adjustment that caused the only TPK I've been in the same room for).
Donald_Cannith 12-06-06, 11:20 PM	dunno sheldomar vally s pretty rough in that they realy really press for oyu to have rogues but no other mdos reward rougeyness so our group never has rouges and as such gets wrecked by traps and tihngs. There was 100 foot spiked pit trap in front of one of the shops for petes ssake.
Drezden 12-07-06, 12:16 AM	Those type of mods - I have played all of the Sheldomars mods and know which one(s) you are talking about - are really only hard at lower levels (APL6 & 8, maybe 10). At high levels, between antimagic field, arcane sight, mass fly, etc. there are many ways to get past traps without a Rogue. Daren dunno sheldomar vally s pretty rough in that they realy really press for oyu to have rogues but no other mdos reward rougeyness so our group never has rouges and as such gets wrecked by traps and tihngs. There was 100 foot spiked pit trap in front of one of the shops for petes ssake.
Drezden 12-07-06, 12:25 AM	I played the Nyrond mod at the whole "Battle for Nyrond" convention 2005 Labor Day in LA. The whole con I saw a lot of softballing and bending of the rules: always get max cure lt wounds spells, the taking back of a death, a rule invoked that you have a round before you "really" die, etc. Then I played the mod in question in the last slot of the con with a tactical DM and a slightly mismatched party. That was an eye opener on a Sunday morning after being up saving Nyrond the night before. lol I agree that a table of experienced players - especially ones that play together - can overcome virtually any encounter. My "normal group" of players is severely power gamed and we are almost never challenged - even by some of the combats that I mentioned as being overpowered (from my DMing experience). But, mods shouldn't be balanced against a powergamed group, they should be balanced against a "normal" party - whatever that is. Daren It is interesting that the entire overlap in our regions is the one nyrond module, and while I've played quite a few Nyrond mods, I either didn't hit the one you hit or perhaps my party was just good at that kind of environment, or it might have been an APL scaling thing. The Pale has a couple modules that at very specific APL's were unusually deadly. Without prepping the mod it is very hard to tell if you were the victim of an unusually hard module or just hit the one poorly scaled encounter that wasn't properly playtested in the 6 APL ranges covered. I've seen that kind of anomoly in the three "regions" I've prepped (Nyrond metaregionals, Pale and Core) so I tend to discount isolated extremely tough encounters in a given region if they only occur once in a convention. Granted it's harder to ignore if you're the victim of such an encounter. But it does seem to be the nature of the beast. Our local authors worry about that stuff and I've become fairly popular for playtests because they know I'll put in the time to do combat simulations on every encounter for every APL. But I know that level of testing is fairly rare. The time schedules in authoring a module really limit what can be done if it covers a broad APL range. I agree with another poster though that having a whole table full of experienced players has a huge mitigating factor on even the most dangerous encounters. Even if it just means they know how to do an extraction that may fail the mission but keep everybody alive. (ie, NOT having one guy charge when the other 5 decide to retreat etc)
Madfox11 12-07-06, 04:56 AM	I agree that a table of experienced players - especially ones that play together - can overcome virtually any encounter. My "normal group" of players is severely power gamed and we are almost never challenged - even by some of the combats that I mentioned as being overpowered (from my DMing experience). But, mods shouldn't be balanced against a powergamed group, they should be balanced against a "normal" party - whatever that is. But what constitutes a "normal" party? There is no clear answer to the question, but it is what makes designing adventures and judging a particular encounter for its lethality so difficult.
Azerin 12-07-06, 09:35 AM	I've played nearly every region from rockies going east of the united states, and I've encountered some harsh mods... with the exception to the big convention interactives (gencon, winter f, etc) I'd say the most annoying is ket, the most deadly is keoland and the harshest (ie curse, penalty) are the sheldomar's, although some of the sheldomars are walk-throughs, depending on author. I was in geoff not too long ago, and someone died at a nearby table, and I heard the DM say something along the line of "You're from keoland, I thought people up there were used to pc death". that's so wrong. :) I will tell you though, some of the Iuz region's mods have better storylines, although my fav storyline is still bissel's (even if their mods are a bit of a pushover). At least they are easy to follow.
trollbill 12-07-06, 10:42 AM	Maybe I should knock on wood, but the Sheldomar Valley mods I've played, albeit only 3, didn't seem any worse than the regional ones. Mind you everyone keeps telling me how deadly they are compared to the regional and core mods, and people playing the same mod at a different table than me have a much more difficult time. But while none of them were easy, they also didn't seem that deadly. Maybe I've just been lucky, or had a good group (I know at least one bad result table was from a bad group). dunno sheldomar vally s pretty rough in that they realy really press for oyu to have rogues but no other mdos reward rougeyness so our group never has rouges and as such gets wrecked by traps and tihngs. There was 100 foot spiked pit trap in front of one of the shops for petes ssake. I know that mod. And that wasn't even the worst trap in it. I've been told there is a particular Sheldomar Valley author who loves pit traps and it is pretty much garaunteed there will be one in every one of his mods. Of course, I have a Ring of Featherfalling now, so I'm not worried.
kjenks 12-07-06, 12:42 PM	I've seen some really bad encounters which clearly weighed in at EL >= APL +5, but paridoxically, those aren't the most deadly. From what I've seen, the usual proximate causes for PC deaths are (1) a tired player who makes a disastrous tactical decision, (2) a bad call by a tired DM and (3) Interactives. The content of the module and the region it comes from doesn't usually make a big difference in PC death. This year, I've travelled a lot, and I've been able to play games from Bandit Kingdoms and Iuz Metaregion (my home turf), Nyrond, Verbobonc, Tuflik-Fals-Velverdyva Trade Route Metaregion, Geoff, Sheldomar Metaregion, Core (regular and Bright Lands) and Core Special. Regardless of region, it's the Interactives that are the most deadly. I suspect the two main reasons for that include motivations of the Triads to maintain an image of "tough" Interactives and inadequate editing and playtesting. Interactives are often written under a deadline. They often suffer from inadequate proofreading, editing and number-crunching on stat blocks. They often have only one play test and that's usually combined with the Slot 0 for the Interactive judges. And Interactives are traditionally run in Slot 3 on Saturday, after judges and players are tired from gaming all day (and they may have been up late on Friday). I'm sure not all Interactives work like this, but I've seen this pattern several times. When combined, these factors can make Interactives deadly. So, in my experience, it's not the region that makes a mod deadly. It's bad PC tactics, bad DM calls and Interactives. I'm trying to establish a new practice at high level tables at conventions: a practice battle before the module begins. We had two PC deaths at a VTF metaregional table (caused by the usual reasons I cited above) that could have been avoided if our just-formed party had worked together better. At APL12+ tables where I don't know the other PCs, I'd like to start off with a two-round mock combat against some generic EL=APL+2 opponents just to gel our party tactics. I think two rounds is long enough for everyone to figure out how party buffs apply, where in the marching order they should be standing and what party role each character usually plays. I believe that this will help us all when we don't have a lot of experience playing as a party.
kjenks 12-07-06, 12:48 PM	But what constitutes a "normal" party? There is no clear answer to the question, but it is what makes designing adventures and judging a particular encounter for its lethality so difficult. I like to do an internal playtest with a party of iconics. I have been collecting them for various APLs. The iconics are 25 point characters with sub-optimal builds and shabby equipment (by LG standards). When I run them as a unit while testing my own module, they have the advantage of playing well with others -- something that doesn't always happen with real PCs. So I figure if an iconic character party can have a good challenge while defeating an encounter, that's a pretty good encounter design. We LG authors would be well-served by a standardized set of characters for internal testing at each APL. Wanna help make an archive?
Madfox11 12-08-06, 10:15 AM	Note about core specials from the various big conventions: they are designed with the intent to include one or two "mean" encounters (although these should obviously not be over the top). It is actually expacted ;) As for designing an iconic party, that wouldn't solve much. The player who runs those characters would determine their effectiveness, and there is really going to be a difference if I ask player X to use them or player Y. What is more, most regions try to generate a specific feel. As people pointed out, Perrenland is filled with demons and undead. They expect players to know this, so at higher APLs the PCs should be prepared as well. A generic PC should have more difficulties dealing with that situation.
Shieldhart91 12-10-06, 04:42 PM	Come to Furyondy. And play a Steve Yee module.
solbergb 12-11-06, 05:13 PM	But what constitutes a "normal" party? There is no clear answer to the question, but it is what makes designing adventures and judging a particular encounter for its lethality so difficult. Here's my playtest definition that I use to prep every mod I run. This is however more work than most judges or authors have time for. 1. Have a pool of iconic characters, single-classed PHB builds with slightly below DMG cash and DMG-only magic items, PHB-only feats. Level them from L1 to L15, and save the results. 2. for each APL, randomly generate parties from those along these lines: One party with character level = APL+0 to +2, four characters One party with character level = APL-1 to +1, five characters One party with character level = APL-2 to +0, six characters. Sometimes these parties will be wildly unbalanced. If I get a duplicate of a given character type (eg, 2 wizards) I'll sometimes mix in a real PC from me or my wife's list as the second one, just for variety...or I'll just redo the spell list of the second wizard, or the feat mix on the fighter or whatever. I've found these randomly generated parties are a fairly accurate match for the sorts of tables I encounter at conventions, on both sides of the table. This kind of thinking has also been valuable for experimental "builds" - seeing if they can contribute in the LG envt. I'd just mix in a potential character into my playtest parties and see if he struggled, contributed normally or was the "star". Sometimes the results are surprising. (eg, a sorcerer with weird spells often synergizes better with other arcanists than the one with the usual suspects, and is only under slightly more pressure when they're the only arcanist even if they lack certain expected spells) Run all 3 parties through the module. By the time you're done you'll usually know if an encounter is unusually difficult or easy, or if a certain character type really changes the difficulty level. (this encounter is shut down by grappling, that one needs serious ranged capability, this one rewards high AC and punishes low AC, this one AC won't help at all, that one requires an in-combat healer, this one is all about how the initiatives work out....) There is a problem with these simulations - they work for me but such a party will have a much higher cohesion and tactical ability (at least if run by me) than a usual pickup party feeling their way through working with each other. Most real LG tables have a strong character or two that kind of make up for it, or a couple players who work together well, either by long association or happy circumstance. But still....an example of "unrealistic" behavior - my playtest clerics all have silence either racked or on a scroll. They are all capable of counterspelling an enemy with silence and tend to do so aggressively if the party can spare them to ready an action. This is how I behave and my wife behaves....but I've judged tables with two clerics and a bard that chose to interrupt spells with crossbows instead of silence, or who just sucked up spell after spell, never even trying to stop the caster beyond hacking at the minions between the party and the caster. Indeed, even at an interactive last night, where some of the best players (and strongest characters) in the Pale from all APL's (folks had to transport themselves from other parts of the battlefield, and we had level 5-15 people all trying to "help") were trying to help both rescue our theocrat and stop Winterwind - not one person interrupted a spell with a silence, although many clerics were present. My wife (who was one of those clerics) had this comment: "He was WINTERWIND. We were reaching for our biggest spells. I just didn't think of it..." Had the battle gone another round, my bard cohort would finally have done it. But then....she was tapped and had exactly 1 second level spell left. It's easier to remember to do when it is ALL you can do. As a result, the PC's had to kill him about 3 times over, as his pet cleric got off a mass heal, a heal etc and only because the BBEG was under severe pressure did the cleric not drop a CL18 blasphemy (never had a free action to do it) which a silence spell ALSO would have stopped cold. People behave strangely under stress....and to be fair it was the last day of the convention and a noisy, chaotic environment.
solbergb 12-11-06, 05:29 PM	As for designing an iconic party, that wouldn't solve much. The player who runs those characters would determine their effectiveness, and there is really going to be a difference if I ask player X to use them or player Y. As stated, there is truth to this. However if you run simulations over a lot of modules as normal judge prep as I do, you rapidly determine what is harder and what is easier. Even though MY iconic parties have XXX % death rate, and Fred running the same parties might have a different death rate, what would be the same is that both me and Fred will notice that encounter A is harder than encounter B. My simulation parties have extremely low death rates. If I get a death in all 3 runs, the encounter is likely unusually deadly, or more than one death in any of the 3 runs. If I get a really bad result, I usually rerun the fight a couple times to confirm I didn't just get hugely unlucky. (I'll do the same for fights that end in one swing....I don't really learn anything from them except the BBEG didn't have enough hitponints to survive that greataxe crit) Aside from deaths though...I look at how long fights lasted, how many resources were burned and also...whether the party can rest after the fight given the flow of the mod. An encounter in a "1 encounter per day" module is not as deadly as that same encounter after the end of "2 encounters plus some low CR traps/envt stuff that encourage PC's to waste resources". I don't analyze all this explicitly. It's pretty much a matter of feel right now, based on several years of doing it. Some authors and DM's have mental models that work pretty well without all the simulations. Some however do not. Even the best may have blind spots (one of the most infamous core encounters I've prepped suffered from the author not really thinking through how animated objects scaled both in CR advancement and the fact that hardness high or low has no impact on the base CR if you go by MM formulas. It was then compounded by a poorly written tactical section that accomplished almost exactly the opposite of what he intended. His other encounters didn't have that problem...he just hadn't written anything like that in a mod before and got burned)
Madfox11 12-12-06, 05:49 AM	You do realize that we need to aim at the iconic party when writing adventures> Each core class archtype should have its shining moment. Granted, a non-iconic party must be able to succeed at an adventure, but it should be harder. Testing an adventure with a random party fails in that regards.
solbergb 12-12-06, 12:47 PM	I don't write for a divine caster, arcane caster, tank melee and trapfinder/scout. I write an adventure, which has its own logic. It is what it is. I've always done this...back in 1979 when I first started gaming, in dozens of game systems. Who will be good at it depends on what the adventure is. The PHB iconic party may find different elements hard or easy. The party with four fighters and a bard will find it easier or harder. Both will likely succeed if they play to their strengths and allow for their weaknesses. My experience is that most characters see their abilities as hammers and go around looking for nails. They'll generally find some in most adventure setups. Only the most pointy "one trick pony's" are likely to have nothing to do, because the've written themselves into a corner where they can only do one thing, and if the adventure doesn't provide it, they've eliminated themselves. That isn't the fault of the author. All of the PHB iconics fill multiple roles (Jozan is cork, medic/support, secondary offensive caster and secondary melee and probably secondary "face". Mialee is the primary offensive caster, secondary support caster, primary utility caster, sage and probably (via familiar/divinations) secondary scout. Tordek is the primary cork and melee offense and the only likely source of intimidation or animal handling of any kind. He's also there to lift heavy objects and break down obstacles. Lydda is either primary melee offense (sneak targets) or secondary caster (UMD) depending on the target, and she's also the trapfinder, primary scout and likely the primary "face" in the party). Heck the Iconic Four even lack tracking, unless Tordek dog-wrangles. Should I never make tracking useful? Of course not. If Lydda was as focused as some rogues I've seen (who do nothing but sneak attack and trapfinding, refusing alternate sources of offense or skill roles) yeah, she'd be bored a lot of the time. In LG, it's just foolish to assume ANYTHING about the party. Just write your module so it makes sense and the CR's are legal. Let the parties work out how to overcome the challenges on their own. It is literally impossible to predict what the table will look like beyond the assumption that out-of-combat healing of some kind will be available routinely past APL2.
trollbill 12-12-06, 02:31 PM	I have to agree. You never know what the party mix is going to be in LG. So writing with the assumption it is anywhere near as balanced as the iconic group is pointless. Just make sure you don't write things into a mod that require certain skills or abilities. Making Track useful is great, making it required can kill a mod. I once playtested a mod for a guy who put in a puzzle that required the party to have a cold spell (even just Ray of Frost) in order to procede. Our playtest party didn't have one. Module over. The best mods are the ones that allow you multiple solutions to the same problem.
Madfox11 12-13-06, 06:04 AM	I never said that an adventure should require a specific skill or feat. I said, it should be easier with an iconic group. I have written scenarios where the Track feat lead to a different set of encounters, or where a Survival skill check caused the PCs to ambush the villains instead of the other way around or where a Diplomacy check could significantly reduce the amount of opposition. In each and every case not making the check only made the fight more difficult, but even than it did not reach TPK possible levels...
solbergb 12-13-06, 12:16 PM	I never said that an adventure should require a specific skill or feat. I'll point out that an iconic group might not have any of those skills you mention at significant levels (tracking, diplomacy, survival) Which is why I say modules have internal logic. If there are tracks to be found, tracking will help. If there are people who have information, social skills will help. If there is a challenge involving being lost or coping with weather or environment, survival may help. If there is a monster with moderate attack rolls and dangerous damage AC will help. If there is a monster with super-high attack rolls and no power attack, AC won't help. Just write the adventure, and let the PC's interact with it and find their own way. The only kind of writing I don't like is when authors think there is only one way to do something and put up artificial barriers to perfectly ordinary approaches. It's fine to dimensionally lock a building. It's not fine to say that teleport/dim door works for the demons but not for the PC's without including a dimensional anchor trap or something similar. It's really not ok to say "anticipate teleport just doesn't work because I want my demons to be able to teleport so nyeah nyeah"
Cardinal Teplin 12-13-06, 01:57 PM	I doubt I've played in sufficient regions to comment on how dangerous the _mods_ are. However, the mods aren't the only consideration. If you have less access to feats, spells, items, and prestige classes, and thus can't twink your character to the same extent, surely that would make the region harder? Or are we just considering a generic traveller here? H
solbergb 12-13-06, 04:16 PM	For me a generic traveler, since I use generics to gauge the danger of encounters, not tweaked out characters. Although it is a kind of interesting point. A region that starves its players of access might cause a slight power imbalance for equipment-dependent characters. I'd think the existance of core and metaregional mods though should limit that. Regional mods are the smallest source of important access for any of my characters. That was less true when metaorgs gave out magic items.
_m_ 12-18-06, 06:07 PM	you know your region is dangerous when: omen of peril ALWAYS says : iminent death.
Lupo 12-19-06, 03:38 AM	you know your region is dangerous when: omen of peril ALWAYS says : iminent death. i thought it says so because you are an adventurer :P ciao martin m.
_m_ 12-19-06, 04:50 PM	i thought it says so because you are an adventurer :P ciao martin m. no no, then it would say: iminent adventure :rolleyes: