| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Genghis Cohen07-24-07, 07:42 PM | We've got Snow Elves and Kobolds. What do you want to see next? I'd like to see the Races of the Draconic Realm from Dragon Magic. Yes, I'd play a Forestlord Elf and he would be green. |
| Morgen07-24-07, 07:44 PM | Well we got Kobolds, that's what our epic struggle was all about getting. Maybe...more Kobolds? A Kobold renaissance as it were? |
| Banor07-24-07, 07:58 PM | Need Goliath ! Nah joking Kobold are enough for me :) |
| Demoyn07-24-07, 08:14 PM | Oh, I'm sure they'll get around to putting in whatever race that gets printed in the next book they want to sell. |
| lseelba07-24-07, 08:47 PM | Oh, I'm sure they'll get around to putting in whatever race that gets printed in the next book they want to sell. Why? Races of the Dragon came out over a year and a half-ago. Are they trying to promote RotD now by allowing kobolds? :rolleyes: |
| _metz_07-24-07, 08:51 PM | Oh, I'm sure they'll get around to putting in whatever race that gets printed in the next book they want to sell. Kobold are what everyone WANTED, not what was being promoted by new books. Kobolds have been around a VERY long time. |
| Wraith23507-24-07, 08:57 PM | hoping for Duskblade myself |
| lseelba07-24-07, 09:03 PM | hoping for Duskblade myself :confused: |
| heirodule07-24-07, 09:17 PM | It would have to be "greyhawky" Norker! Or flind! or quallan! |
| Sieylianna07-24-07, 09:59 PM | Drow! |
| GreatSiron07-24-07, 11:05 PM | Drow! No. God no. |
| Mommy was an Orc07-24-07, 11:12 PM | No. God no. What's so wrong with the Drow Ranger option? In exchange for naming your Scimitars oddly, you're near immortal unless someone's shooting arrows across a lake at you. |
| GreatSiron07-24-07, 11:16 PM | What's so wrong with the Drow Ranger option? In exchange for naming your Scimitars oddly, you're near immortal unless someone's shooting arrows across a lake at you. I think you just answered your own question. |
| Britt07-24-07, 11:17 PM | There probably won't be another race card for a long time. We wanted to delay this one to the next set to spread out the race cards, but we didn't have another card written to put into this set. If we do another race card, it would probably be three sets away, at the least, which makes it almost a year. |
| Britt07-24-07, 11:17 PM | And, no, we would never do drow cards. I think you can safely place bets on that. |
| RedKnightofKet07-24-07, 11:25 PM | There probably won't be another race card for a long time. We wanted to delay this one to the next set to spread out the race cards, but we didn't have another card written to put into this set. If we do another race card, it would probably be three sets away, at the least, which makes it almost a year. Is it just me, or should we be concerned about the Circle using terms like "race card"? :rimshot: Seriously, though, you guys are doing a great job with the campaign and I'm very excited to see where things continue to go from here. |
| Ralis07-24-07, 11:34 PM | Okay. First things first. To be honest, anything with a level adjustment (like the drow's +2, or the aasimir and tieflings +1) probably won't pass. I know some people in my region that would like to see the Illumians (from races of destiny) |
| just_be_glad_now07-24-07, 11:43 PM | Ralis Okay. First things first. To be honest, anything with a level adjustment (like the drow's +2, or the aasimir and tieflings +1) probably won't pass. Like the Centaur? Seriously tho, it's going to be really hard to make space for another race card when they reprint the kobold card in each and every set from now on...right? :) :p |
| TheBlackFlail07-25-07, 01:34 AM | While I doubt it will happen (my negativity makes me easily pleasantly surprised, though), Centaur (or Asherati) would probably make a good racial creation card, since there is already precedent for them in the campaign. |
| zoinks6907-25-07, 01:48 AM | Flumph! |
| Eric Anondson07-25-07, 02:02 AM | Whenever the next such card appears, I want to see gnolls. We've had anti-Iuz neutralish gnolls from the White Plume Mountain vicinity appear in Shield Lands mods in the past. I would love to see this tribe start sending out members to the wider world. :) |
| jstorrie07-25-07, 03:15 AM | Gnolls would get killed on sight even more than kobolds. And I imagine that table variation is going to be huge on kobolds. Low-level kobolds without magic or high Disguise are going to get slaughtered by town guards left and right. |
| _metz_07-25-07, 03:47 AM | Gnolls would get killed on sight even more than kobolds. And I imagine that table variation is going to be huge on kobolds. Low-level kobolds without magic or high Disguise are going to get slaughtered by town guards left and right. Thats why you make them silver /gold and give them wiiiiinngs!!! Fortunately in Perrenland there is already a tribe of non evil Kobolds. They make excellent Assassin Vine Wine, and trade is strong with them, as well as with some HobGoblins. In Ratik most Gnolls WOULD be killed on sight yeah, Gnolls are a much less civilised race you must remember. Kobolds are tied to Dragons, Gnolls are just trapped in thier own brutish existence by their nature. kobolds often break out of it, and are a magically and technologically advanced species, whilst Gnolls are not. Gnolls are even behind Orcs etc in terms of social development. |
| NiTessine07-25-07, 04:25 AM | I'd be quite happy not seeing another race unlocked in a creation card for quite a while. The wrong kind of race running around can be very damaging to a region's atmosphere - especially if they will be played like a bunch of Meepos and Deekins. It forces the Triads (and their fluff slaves like me) to come up with a reason why they're even tolerated and not slaughtered on sight. What I want is a creation card for neutral worshipers of evil deities and the church of Wastri. We could finally play all those lawful neutral clerics of Hextor. As it is, we have to settle for Stern Alia, which just isn't the same. The church of Wastri, being lawful neutral, should not even be restricted in the first place. We can already play Scarlet Brotherhood characters, who have much more disagreeable opinions about races and species, from a real-world point of view. It's hard to get ruffled about an elf holocaust denier. |
| NotLestat07-25-07, 05:03 AM | Gnome subraces. They get gipped otherwise. Whisper gnomes would be awesome, as would forest gnomes. I'd pay the LA to play a deep gnome; would be a challenge - 1 HD at 4th level... ouch. |
| Pint_Glass_Crusader07-25-07, 08:32 AM | The Illumians would be a likely choice, they have no level adjustment, and are already available in a supported source book, but are not considered open. Though keeping with the LG theme there would need to be an accompanying module or back story to explain their origin, as the Illumians have not existed in LG so far. The Raptorans from RotW would be good, and probably easier to write in. But my personal favourite is Kenku (from the MM3)... just because I have a load of Kenku miniatures I never use! |
| Madfox1107-25-07, 08:53 AM | The church of Wastri, being lawful neutral, should not even be restricted in the first place. We can already play Scarlet Brotherhood characters, who have much more disagreeable opinions about races and species, from a real-world point of view. It's hard to get ruffled about an elf holocaust denier. The church of Wastri was open, but was closed due to the serious issues it caused. Discrimination is a very touchy subject, and people used Wastri as an excuse for some very rude unacceptable behavior. Besides, Wastri should NEVER have been made lawful neutral in the first place. His faith wants to exterminate all elves, halflings, gnomes, dwarves and the various half-breeds. It goes much further than holocaust deniing. Pieter Sleijpen RPGA Living Greyhawk Circle Member The Splintered Suns |
| Pint_Glass_Crusader07-25-07, 09:12 AM | What I want is a creation card for neutral worshipers of evil deities and the church of Wastri. We could finally play all those lawful neutral clerics of Hextor. As it is, we have to settle for Stern Alia, which just isn't the same. LG is a game of heroic fantasy and [with the best will in the world] such a suggestion is wide open for abuse... and abuse does not make for a fun game. The access to religious organisations is the jurisdiction of each triad, creating cards for every character option, especially one as potentially dangerous as this, lessens the influence of the local triad, which I am against! Can you imagine such a cleric setting up an official "Church of Vecna" in your region with the tag line... "We only teach the neutral tenants of the faith... you know the less mad and evil stuff!" :confused: It mocks what the game is about and cheapens the potential threat of evil churches. Leave the cards to opening up other character races or classes, not many choose them anyway, which is why I am against "Duskblade", or we'll be flooded with them. |
| RedKnightofKet07-25-07, 09:26 AM | LG is a game of heroic fantasy and [with the best will in the world] such a suggestion is wide open for abuse... and abuse does not make for a fun game. The access to religious organisations is the jurisdiction of each triad, creating cards for every character option, especially one as potentially dangerous as this, lessens the influence of the local triad, which I am against! Can you imagine such a cleric setting up an official "Church of Vecna" in your region with the tag line... "We only teach the neutral tenants of the faith... you know the less mad and evil stuff!" :confused: It mocks what the game is about and cheapens the potential threat of evil churches. Leave the cards to opening up other character races or classes, not many choose them anyway, which is why I am against "Duskblade", or we'll be flooded with them. But the Triad in my region has determined that Hextor is an official state religion - it's the Circle that says I can't worship him. Beside, being a cleric does not set up an official "Church of whoever" - you're simply one worshipper. Just playing Vecna's advocate here.... :D |
| _metz_07-25-07, 09:45 AM | But the Triad in my region has determined that Hextor is an official state religion - it's the Circle that says I can't worship him. Beside, being a cleric does not set up an official "Church of whoever" - you're simply one worshipper. Just playing Vecna's advocate here.... :D I don't feel we should encourage such things for PR/Legal issues. If you want to play a cleric of an evil deity who does nasty things like animate dead, kills prisoners, and slaughters for their own good etc, then please do so in a home game, where we all won't suffer due to anti gaming lobbying, issues with 15 year olds playing, etc. People need to take that into account. Some people find roleplaying an evil character to be a form of escapism, some find it to be offensive. As LG is a global campaign it can ill afford to allow or encourage themes such as racism, torture, killing, or the 'dark arts'. I say all of this being not a major advocate of any specific religion, but of morality and the implications on the campaign in general. There is a bigger picture, as well as marketing issues involved. We are supposed to be playing heroes. Not villains. I have nothing against evil campaigns, some people like that, but it DOESN'T work in a global campaign. |
| Prof. Pacali07-25-07, 10:08 AM | How about the Illumian race introduced in Races of Destiny? The card could unlock some of the Power Sigil feats, and the racial subsitution levels. Illumians aren't that powerful a race, even if you multiclass like crazy, they are exotic, and they don't have the stigma of drow or monsters like gnolls. |
| Eric Anondson07-25-07, 10:24 AM | Thats why you make them silver /gold and give them wiiiiinngs!!!Pretty much! All you have to do now it change their color and they're instantly recognized across the Flanaess as: "well they look like the monstrous badguys we have fought for centuries, but the new color must mean they are something totally different! Let's let them in the city to buy beer in our taverns." |
| Eric Anondson07-25-07, 10:35 AM | More seriously, I'd like to see skulks. Something with a clear and unique Greyhawk heritage. Or half-ogres, there is already one nation in the Flanaess with half-ogre with bunches of them. They are mentioned in the LGG and past Greyhawk canon so the administration doesn't have to make anything up to shoehorn them in like was done with putting kobolds from the Mist Kingdom. Or size Tiny forest gnomes. ;) |
| Mystical_Tutor07-25-07, 10:36 AM | We've got Snow Elves and Kobolds. What do you want to see next? I would really like to see Raptorans added. It would certainly add an interesting and exciting new dimention to the game (not just from the flying but from the personality and psychology point of view, also). |
| NiTessine07-25-07, 10:37 AM | Who said anything about evil characters? I spoke of neutral characters worshipping evil deities. We already have Wee Jas and Stern Alia available, both of whom are described as LN(E). Why not allow us to play lawful neutral clerics of Hextor. It's the second-largest church in Naerie. I envision a lawful neutral interpretation of his dogma as emphasising more the strong leadership and survival of the fittest aspects of the deity than the tyranny and crushing underfoot of the weak stuff. Harsh people, not much fun at cocktail parties, but honourable and generally sane. I'm not really sure how you could spin Vecna's doctrine as neutral, really. But then, we don't have Vecna's church in Naerie. People need to take that into account. Some people find roleplaying an evil character to be a form of escapism, some find it to be offensive. As LG is a global campaign it can ill afford to allow or encourage themes such as racism, torture, killing, or the 'dark arts'. I say all of this being not a major advocate of any specific religion, but of morality and the implications on the campaign in general. Racism? Dude, Scarlet Brotherhood and Wastri have been a part of the setting for quite a while. Of course they should be explored. There's a lot of interesting things you can say about racism in the context of a fantasy game. Torture? It seems to be an accepted method of interrogation in the real world, so why pretend it wouldn't happen in a fantasy setting? Sure, it's an evil act - or are there, in fact, situations where it isn't? There's no reason whatsoever to hide this stuff under the rug. It's a part of the setting and a part of the game. What we're supposed to do with those themes is handle them in an adult and mature fashion. This can only make the campaign better. Just don't make it gratuitous, make it have a point to it. To offer a marketing point of view, I've only seen a single module lose us a player. That was Seeds, a year 5 Splintered Suns metaregional. It was about fairies. Yeah. As for "heroic fantasy"... Yeah, it can be that. It can also be so many other things. If you haven't noticed, there's been a longish plot arc in the Bright Sands where every Year Six module involved a huge amount of backstabbing, intrigue and intra-party strife, with characters being given an opportunity to follow a Neutral Evil archwizard - which many did. Moral grey areas make the game better. There's a place for the black and white heroics, but we get enough adventures per year to make room for the other themes as well. Man, did this one get off topic. |
| Shieldhart9107-25-07, 10:40 AM | The thing about playing an evil character that nobody takes into account? Well, on the good side- you can become the best of whatever you do, and everyone respects you. Anyone who tries to kill you as you surpass them isn't good to begin with. On the evil side? "You're too powerful. You threaten my power. You die now." *Sends 20 ninjas after you like clockwork* Just a little something to think about. Anyways, I'm glad Kobolds came out. But I think we need to recover from the mass influx of Kobolds before we let another race in. And no, Whisper Gnomes are not going to be that race. Easily set up for cheese. |
| gomeztoo07-25-07, 11:04 AM | Moral grey areas make the game better. There's a place for the black and white heroics, but we get enough adventures per year to make room for the other themes as well. PCs that support evil deities are not 'morally gray'. If we allow PCs that worship Hextor (tyranny, terror, brutal oppression) and Wastri (bogotry, genocide), why not Iuz, Incabulos, Nerul, or Erythnul? We try to make a heroic campaign. This means that when you live in a region that oppresses and worships evil deities, the challenge should be in being the underdog or the rebel. You are not generally supposed to join the bad guys, but to fight them. |
| LachlarlanIII07-25-07, 11:44 AM | Or size Tiny forest gnomes. ;) If that happens, I'm naming mine David. |
| Bogjob07-25-07, 12:54 PM | Personally I would like to see Aasimar and Teiflings included. I hope Drow never make an appearance as a player race. Imagine turning up to a table and sitting down amongst 5 dual wielding drow rangers :weep: |
| Donald_Cannith07-25-07, 01:09 PM | I rmember one particular Keoland module where the PCs were contacted by a high priest of Hextor who was LN and who was the good guy of the adventure. They called themselves the Ironbound and they followed the Law and War domains and strength/fitness and discord portion of the dogma as well as using tyranny in moderation as needed by the situation. He was ver ycool and I would not mind seeing a few of hem floating around, even if they did have to disguise thier faith. (in keoland they operate very much in secret and they are looking for acceptance by the common man) |
| catsclaw07-25-07, 01:55 PM | It mocks what the game is about and cheapens the potential threat of evil churches.Seriously, don't we have enough problems with people paying intolerant "good" characters? There was a player running around Verbobonc whose Lawful Good cleric had a penchant for taking unconscious enemies, casting "Create Water" in a bucket, and drowning them in it. I believe the character has since been slapped (although, interestingly, *not* removed) by the Triad. I shudder to think what characters running around worshiping Vecna or Wastri or Iuz would get up to. |
| TheBlackFlail07-25-07, 02:29 PM | I shudder to think what characters running around worshiping Vecna or Wastri or Iuz would get up to. Doesn't everybody in the Bandit Kingdoms already worship Iuz? Hail IUZ! |
| NiTessine07-25-07, 03:59 PM | PCs that support evil deities are not 'morally gray'. If we allow PCs that worship Hextor (tyranny, terror, brutal oppression) and Wastri (bogotry, genocide), why not Iuz, Incabulos, Nerul, or Erythnul? We try to make a heroic campaign. This means that when you live in a region that oppresses and worships evil deities, the challenge should be in being the underdog or the rebel. You are not generally supposed to join the bad guys, but to fight them. Actually, the situation is morally gray. Hextorites uphold the Ahlissan rule and establishment, which is a lawful thing to do, not evil. The rebels fight against the Ahlissan rulers and wish the County of Idee to be free once more. However, a free Idee would be more vulnerable to an attack by the Scarlet Brotherhood. While the Ahlissans rule with an iron fist, they are unarguably better than the Scarlet Brotherhood. Also, the Ideeans were famously racist toward nonhumans themselves, and the Eddri rulers were a bunch of inbred gits. Literally. The Eddri rulers generally follow Heironeous while the Idee Volunteers, the rebels, cleave to Trithereon. The former's church in Naerie has a ceasefire pact with the church of Hextor to uphold the law and order, while the latter is outlawed. There are no clear answers. Nobody is undeniably right or wrong. The conflict is about law versus chaos, not about good versus evil, and PCs can freely pick their sides. Conflicting allegiances within a party make for interesting and often unpredictable situations when the players take control of the story. When the adventure allows for a character-driven plot, people can really roleplay their characters and generally get more out of the module than your average dungeon crawl. As for the other deities... Iuz, Erythnul and Incabulos are probably out, but I can see Nerull working in, say, Perrenland. It's one of the accepted faiths in the region, is it not? Neutral death cultists are nothing new. I do admit your points about Wastri, though. These would kinda have to be region-specific things. Religions are touchy issues, and while Hextor may be quite accepted in the United Kingdom of Ahlissa, he'd be unlikely to get a warm reception in, say, Nyrond. Same goes for the Sunndian Trithereonite venturing into Ahlissa. |
| Genghis Cohen07-25-07, 05:42 PM | Though keeping with the LG theme there would need to be an accompanying module or back story to explain their origin, as the Illumians have not existed in LG so far...FWIW, Illumians have made their way into a Bissel mod or two. |
| Simpi07-26-07, 09:33 AM | PCs that support evil deities are not 'morally gray'. If we allow PCs that worship Hextor (tyranny, terror, brutal oppression) and Wastri (bogotry, genocide), why not Iuz, Incabulos, Nerul, or Erythnul? We try to make a heroic campaign. I think worrying about two lawful deities with mean streaks is not appropriate when CN (CE) deity of Jealousy, Revenge & Theft with worse dogma than Hextor (in my opinion) is completely legal choice in Living Greyhawk. How is that justified? Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad |
| LachlarlanIII07-26-07, 09:59 AM | We've got Snow Elves and Kobolds. What do you want to see next? I'd like to see the Races of the Draconic Realm from Dragon Magic. Yes, I'd play a Forestlord Elf and he would be green. Whisper Gnome... WHAT? Someone had to say it!:D |
| Eric Anondson07-26-07, 11:09 AM | I think worrying about two lawful deities with mean streaks is not appropriate when CN (CE) deity of Jealousy, Revenge & Theft with worse dogma than Hextor (in my opinion) is completely legal choice in Living Greyhawk.Which CN (CE) is this? Kurell seemed closest but he doesn't have CN (CE), he's just CN. |
| Simpi07-26-07, 11:13 AM | Which CN (CE) is this? Kurell seemed closest but he doesn't have CN (CE), he's just CN. You are actually correct. I remembered in error that Kurell had CN (CE) while it was actually Ralishaz, another LG acceptable deity dedicated to Ill Luck, Misfortune and Insanity. This still does not chance the fact that it's dogma is about as troublesome as Hextors. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad |
| Mommy was an Orc07-26-07, 11:32 AM | You are actually correct. I remembered in error that Kurell had CN (CE) while it was actually Ralishaz, another LG acceptable deity dedicated to Ill Luck, Misfortune and Insanity. This still does not chance the fact that it's dogma is about as troublesome as Hextors. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad They're not even in the same ballpark - Clerics of Ralishaz are mean and spiteful types who believe the universe is out to get us, but they're not particularly evil in action. They might laugh at the fact you tripped by random chance and broke your leg, but they're not that likely to be 'cruel and merciless in the pursuit of ones goals' |
| Fsi-Dib07-26-07, 11:44 AM | First I'd want to say I personally find the idea of having an evil character in LG especially fascinating. But I doubt that'll happen in a while I move to the next point. An evil deity as the worshipped deity? The idea is, again, intriguing and somewhat convenient. You get new accesses to domains normally out of reach, such as Evil, Pestilence and so forth. Unfortunately worshipping an evil deity gives new options only for clerics. Also it should be kept in mind that worshipping an evil deity would not, by standard LG rules, permit the player to commit evil acts. To contribute to the original question; what race to the next card? Not Drow, not Catfolk. Instead, Dream Dwarf (from Races of Stone) |
| bitznarf07-26-07, 11:48 AM | [Pet Peeve]Also it should be kept in mind that worshipping an evil deity would not, by standard LG rules, permit the player to commit evil acts. To be more accurate, evil alignments are not permitted. Evil acts are allowed so long as ones Triad does not decide that ones PC has become evil, at which point ones PC becomes a NPC.[/Pet Peeve] |
| Simpi07-26-07, 12:03 PM | They might laugh at the fact you tripped by random chance and broke your leg, but they're not that likely to be 'cruel and merciless in the pursuit of ones goals' I was not talking about Ralishaz dogma there but Kurells, which seems to be "covet thy neighbours oxen, man/female slave, plough, ox, donkey, field and the smelly dirty peasant rags which he uses to cover himself." :D Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad |
| NiTessine07-26-07, 12:17 PM | Yeah... not that the God of Schadenfreude is that much better. People tend to take it badly. Okay, the way I see this being viable... Make a card that unlocks a single evil deity. The deity would be region-dependent and it would be up to the regional triads to decide which one it is. At the Triad's option, they could leave it blank and not allow any evil deities. Most regions do have at least one evil deity that's more or less socially and legally acceptable, though - and certainly more acceptable than kobolds. |
| control freak07-26-07, 12:25 PM | Yeah... not that the God of Schadenfreude is that much better. People tend to take it badly. Okay, the way I see this being viable... Make a card that unlocks a single evil deity. The deity would be region-dependent and it would be up to the regional triads to decide which one it is. At the Triad's option, they could leave it blank and not allow any evil deities. Most regions do have at least one evil deity that's more or less socially and legally acceptable, though - and certainly more acceptable than kobolds. you cant allow them to not allow it or you make a card worthless to any one who gets it in that region/metaregion |
| Mommy was an Orc07-26-07, 12:46 PM | I was not talking about Ralishaz dogma there but Kurells, which seems to be "covet thy neighbours oxen, man/female slave, plough, ox, donkey, field and the smelly dirty peasant rags which he uses to cover himself." :D Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad Kurell's allies include Trithereon. Atroa, Sotillion, and Zilchus would surely forgive him if he asked for it. He's a jealous, vengeful sort. It doesn't say it is necessary to be cruel, merciless, dissenters oppressed, strong rule the weak, or anything else along those lines. You've got wealth, then it is his right to take it. As it usually involves Rogues, odds are stealing it without you realizing it is the goal. Sure, if you're an enemy of his, you're not going to be happy, but... |
| NiTessine07-26-07, 01:18 PM | you cant allow them to not allow it or you make a card worthless to any one who gets it in that region/metaregion Up until last mailing we were lucky if half the cards we got were even campaign legal, and half of those were either crap (Second Wind) or unusable for requiring skill or feat prerequisites that no character has ever had (Triumph of Hoof and Fletching). The cards are an added bonus that's nice to have, but it's not mandatory that you should be able to squeeze out benefit from everything that comes your way. This particular card is strongly tied to regional flavour and atmosphere, and the Triads are the people responsible for that. I don't think the cards should step on the toes of Triads in this. I also think the Triads should be permitted to disallow kobold characters in their regions. Besides, not all regions do have an evil deity that'd work well with the flavour. I think Theocracy of the Pale would be a prominent one. Also, there isn't a single evil deity in the entire Bakluni pantheon. |
| bitznarf07-26-07, 01:28 PM | Also, there isn't a single evil deity in the entire Bakluni pantheon. Well, I have once PC who would take exception to that. Dam Mark of Justice from Al'Akbar (mostly Al'Akbar's fault anyway). |
| LachlarlanIII07-26-07, 02:27 PM | Up until last mailing we were lucky if half the cards we got were even campaign legal, and half of those were either crap (Second Wind) or unusable for requiring skill or feat prerequisites that no character has ever had (Triumph of Hoof and Fletching). Second Wind crap? Hmm... Wonder why I used it for my bleeding out raging barbarian to bring him to conciousness in the last part of RHoD then... Hmmm... So's you know, I spent the remainder of that encounter drinking potions so I didn't die when my rage ended while the rest of the party fought the big nasty elsewhere. I tried to buy them some time to get to a better position. |
| TWG_Prometheus07-26-07, 02:28 PM | This particular card is strongly tied to regional flavour and atmosphere, and the Triads are the people responsible for that. I don't think the cards should step on the toes of Triads in this. I also think the Triads should be permitted to disallow kobold characters in their regions. I wasn't aware that the Triads were able to disallow any particular type of character in their regions, and while it's a tempting thought from a flavor/region management perspective, I'm not sure that they ought to be able to do so. The problem primarily concerns what happens when players cross over regions. If a player brings a Kobold character to a table at a con, would you really like to be the one to tell them that they can bring that Kobold if they want to, but that the Kobold would be killed on sight? I personally find enough evidence in Core modules to suggest that Kobolds commonly come in enough of a mix of good and bad to avoid Kill on Sight issues. To me, the 'evil-aligned deity worshipper' card would have similar problems. It's all well and good if Hextor worshippers can walk the streets without fear in Naerie, but if one set foot in Rel Mord right after Nyrond's civil war there could be a few 'issues'. Going a step further and asking that Paladin of Heironeous to let the Lawful Neutral Cleric of Hextor adventure with him---in an environment where PvP isn't allowed no less---approaches absurdity. Maybe some people are considering attempting it, but I wouldn't like to deal with the purely mechanical problems of restricting Kobolds by region. The evil-algined deity worshipper problem is even worse. |
| Eric Anondson07-26-07, 02:30 PM | you cant allow them to not allow it or you make a card worthless to any one who gets it in that region/metaregionTriads absolutely are allowed to make a kobold card "worthless". Triads are allowed to say kobolds are killed on sight in their region, or are imprisoned, or are harassed, etc. The card as much as says kobolds must expect it. This would be the Triads' "take-away-people's-fun-ability". |
| Fsi-Dib07-26-07, 02:37 PM | Well, Paladins of Heironeous are the most incooperative characters I can think of. Mainly, all paladins (except Grey Guards) are. The similar things happen if you bring a Cleric of Trithereon to Naerie. If they preach about their religion at the town square, the militia will come with batons, or swords. Of course if I'd be the DM I'd let the person know his/her character is dwelling in area that does not support his/her character's points of view. At all. An evil beguiler could easily cast undetectable alignment on him/herself. And practically not do anything stupid while in public. If one plays a slightly evil character in a dumb way, it's ought to be killed just for the heck of it. Furthermore, the "heroic" deeds was mentioned earlier. All I've noticed that characters are more interested to know "What's it in for me?" rather than the reputation. |
| Eric Anondson07-26-07, 02:42 PM | If a player brings a Kobold character to a table at a con, would you really like to be the one to tell them that they can bring that Kobold if they want to, but that the Kobold would be killed on sight? If the character signed up for a Con in a region known for kobold discrimination (and worse) then they have more than enough fair warning NOT to play their kobold character in regional adventures. If I were running the con, I'd have no problems pointing this out to the player. I personally find enough evidence in Core modules to suggest that Kobolds commonly come in enough of a mix of good and bad to avoid Kill on Sight issues.Because a few groups of kobolds here or there scattered over an area the size of a continent, and the PCs adventures just happen to end up taking them there, doesn't mean that the average NPC should be expected to respond other than as if they were meeting a kobold like the stories of evil little bogeymen they all grew up with. |
| Britt07-26-07, 03:24 PM | Triads absolutely are allowed to make a kobold card "worthless". Triads are allowed to say kobolds are killed on sight in their region, or are imprisoned, or are harassed, etc. The card as much as says kobolds must expect it. This would be the Triads' "take-away-people's-fun-ability". To be clear, they are perfectly allowed to say any NPCs that recognize you as a kobold will automatically attempt to kill you. What I don't like is if people try to say "If you step into our region, you fall over dead, no matter what precautions you take, what level you are, or anything else." |
| NiTessine07-26-07, 04:47 PM | Second Wind crap? Hmm... Wonder why I used it for my bleeding out raging barbarian to bring him to conciousness in the last part of RHoD then... Hmmm... It's crap for much the same reason Diehard is crap. Enemies ignore you when you're down. If you come back up with three hit points, they stop ignoring you and are very likely to kill you. A mid-to-high-level, raging barbarian who'll die when his temporary hit points go would be perhaps the only character to whom it might be worth the gamble. Otherwise, it's safer to stay down and wait for the cleric to show up. I wasn't aware that the Triads were able to disallow any particular type of character in their regions, and while it's a tempting thought from a flavor/region management perspective, I'm not sure that they ought to be able to do so. To me, the 'evil-aligned deity worshipper' card would have similar problems. It's all well and good if Hextor worshippers can walk the streets without fear in Naerie, but if one set foot in Rel Mord right after Nyrond's civil war there could be a few 'issues'. Going a step further and asking that Paladin of Heironeous to let the Lawful Neutral Cleric of Hextor adventure with him---in an environment where PvP isn't allowed no less---approaches absurdity. I am not saying the Triads are able to disallow any particular type of character in their regions. I am saying they should be. I think the what Britt outlined is a rather good way of going about it. There is actually a player race, the gnomes, who have something approaching a religious mandate to wage genocidal war upon kobolds, and they certainly know kobolds have the same. These particular kobolds might not, but are the gnomes really interested? Also, in Naerie, the Hextorites and Heironeans do get along. They don't like each other, but they understand the political realities of the situation and realise they have many common goals, such as the preservation of law and order. They share a common enemy in the Idee Volunteers and Trithereonites. Taking your Hextorite cleric to Nyrond would probably be an exceptionally stupid idea and you could only blame yourself if he got arrested and exiled, executed or imprisoned until his grandkids died of old age. Same thing if a Trithereonite comes to Naerie or a follower of Iuz pretty much anywhere south of the Rift Canyon. To allow them go about their business freely everywhere would dilute the regional flavour, which is why I favour giving Triads the power to pick the evil deities available to PCs in their region. So, Hextorites in Naerie? Sure. Hextorites in Sunndi, the Wild Coast, the Pomarj? Sure. Hextorites in Nyrond? Apparently not. The arrest should not be an automatic thing. Over here, we've got a system where if you're wanted for serious crimes, you roll a d20 at the end of each regional adventure. 1 or 2 comes up, you get caught and have to face the penalties. A DC 20 Disguise check can reduce it to just 1. I think it'd need to be harder for kobolds, though, what with the tails and the snouts and the scales and possibly the wings... Personally, I dislike the prevalence of characters like Meepo, Tajlo and Deekin. One was funny, but now it's getting annoying. It's like Drizzt all over again. |
| Pint_Glass_Crusader07-27-07, 04:26 AM | The Triads should not be able to ban a character race/class [unlocked by a card] outright! We have enough worthless cards that we slogged long and hard for. However, I do believe they have the right to "make it difficult" for certain races in their region... this is all part of regional flavour... it's the reason I intend my kobold to have a high "Disguise" skill! As for Neutral Clerics of an Evil God... the Triad sets the rules for established regligions/churches in their area. The question is one of acceptablilty, not access. Lawful-Good churches and Paladins are going to have a serious problem with any worshipper/cleric of an evil god. I know my Paladin wouldn't even bother with a "Detect Evil" on such a character... "if he says he worships Vecna, that's good enough for me... Smite Evil!" Remember in some regions (as stated above) there have been bitter conflicts with military forces sponsored by evil churches. Maybe my Paladin's sheet would be ripped up for directly attacking another PC... but I don;t have to save him when the Lynch Mob turns up... mysteriously! ;) I understand people out there wanting access to other domains etc. but, think about it... a neutral cleric of an evil god casts a spell with an evil descriptor (or for a morally dubious purpose)... it gets reported to the triad, who immediately say "well he was walking a fine line anyway... change to evil alignment... rip that sheet up!" That's a waste of modules! But back to the original point of this (now, well hijacked) thread, Raptoran or Illumians. They are from supported books and are easy to "write into" the LG mythos. |
| LachlarlanIII07-27-07, 09:33 AM | It's crap for much the same reason Diehard is crap. Enemies ignore you when you're down. If you come back up with three hit points, they stop ignoring you and are very likely to kill you. A mid-to-high-level, raging barbarian who'll die when his temporary hit points go would be perhaps the only character to whom it might be worth the gamble. Otherwise, it's safer to stay down and wait for the cleric to show up. I will admit, it does lose its value the higher level one is, but at low levels when there is little to no healing, it can put someone back in the game. |
| Samwise07-27-07, 12:29 PM | It's crap for much the same reason Diehard is crap. Enemies ignore you when you're down. If you come back up with three hit points, they stop ignoring you and are very likely to kill you. A mid-to-high-level, raging barbarian who'll die when his temporary hit points go would be perhaps the only character to whom it might be worth the gamble. Otherwise, it's safer to stay down and wait for the cleric to show up. That's why you only use it when: 1. You have a cleric who goes next waiting to heal you. 2. You are at -7 to -9 hp and the 1-6 hp gained won't mak you conscious. Most people who use the card regularly are aware of those factors and plan accordingly. The card also means the cleric doesn't have to hover over everyone, spending most of his time "readying an action to heal." And it is useful when there is no cleric, just a ranger using his "two-weapon curing style" after combat. |
| bitznarf07-27-07, 12:41 PM | Can only do that if he has Dual Wand Wielder :P Would be funny to see a ranger running around with 2 wands though. |
| Samwise07-27-07, 12:55 PM | Can only do that if he has Dual Wand Wielder :P Would be funny to see a ranger running around with 2 wands though. Heh. That's the problem with using hyperbole in D&D, there's usually something that means it isn't. :cool: Still, that would be a good way to take down undead. ;) |
| Hariman07-28-07, 08:57 PM | I'd hate to stick with the Races of the Dragon, but Spellscale and Dragonborn would be nice. Spellscales especially, as no other race I know of has a boost to charisma. I vote NO on illumian, because of the hoopla that would create from some of the improved sigils. (Plus, not existing in greyhawk is a bad thing.) Raptorans would be cool. But Kenkus lean very much toward evil. Oops, so do Kobolds! Actually, Kenkus would be really cool. But I'd rather see a Warlock, Dragon Shaman, or Duskblade card. |
| Vamroc07-28-07, 10:37 PM | I think It's looong overdue to make Lychanthropy a curse players can have and not feel screwed over. Oh there should be draw backs but not like the ones that currently treat you like some kinda prison B*tch. The Curse Of 101, 202, 303, Devils was far worse and there is only one retired mod that can remove them. Clerics can worship evil gods so long as you are one step away from that alignment. He may not be tolerated in the party but you are free to worship Vecna at your own risk. |
| copper_wyrmling07-29-07, 12:58 AM | To be clear, they are perfectly allowed to say any NPCs that recognize you as a kobold will automatically attempt to kill you. What I don't like is if people try to say "If you step into our region, you fall over dead, no matter what precautions you take, what level you are, or anything else." That's why I don't like the note about the Arrested! AR item in the Greyhawk Ruins sourcebook... "If a PC runs afoul of the law, they are automatically incarcerated and penalized the noted number of TUs. This is the decision of the DM, and the arrest of the PC occurs by fiat; you don't need to play out the arrest, it simply happens." I don't expect any of my PCs to have this problem, but I find it annoying and unrealistic that arrest and imprisonment can be automatic, regardless of the PC's level and defences. |
| Simpi07-29-07, 02:27 AM | I think It's looong overdue to make Lychanthropy a curse players can have and not feel screwed over. Oh there should be draw backs but not like the ones that currently treat you like some kinda prison B*tch. The Curse Of 101, 202, 303, Devils was far worse and there is only one retired mod that can remove them. Correct me if I am wrong but other than few measly drawbacks relating to your possible behavior, Lycanthropy in all forms would essentially be a massive boost to most physical ability scores. I don't see any reason why this should be allowed to PCs as their effective character level would jump by +3 (as suggested in Monster Manual). There has to be some kind of game balance after all. Clerics can worship evil gods so long as you are one step away from that alignment. He may not be tolerated in the party but you are free to worship Vecna at your own risk. Not according to current rules, which is why Nitessine above suggested a creation card for some of the evil deities. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad |
| Simpi07-29-07, 02:42 AM | I don't expect any of my PCs to have this problem, but I find it annoying and unrealistic that arrest and imprisonment can be automatic, regardless of the PC's level and defences. I think the issue might be with the time it would take to resolve such issues in a table. We have in previous regionals statted out town guards and such in case PCs start to cause trouble* but these days editors have told us that don't do it anymore. I think it is because a) It takes up space in a module b) if PC is already breaking the law and is willing to kill local law enforcement people, then he is already way too deep in "evil acts" department and will get removed from the campaign anyway c) Even if you have means to avoid them now (teleport, etc) then that PC is probably known by someone and the law enforcement can apprehend him elsewhere. Point C is especially important as some players seem to think that because they can do it, governments or something would not have resources or means to track them down. This is of course false. In case of Greyhawk City, their militia also has a third form of patrol (not one detailed in GH ruins sourcebook) which has one of the militia leaders and cleric/wiz (at least 8th level) with multiple magical items dedicated on neutralising threats (wand of hold person, dispel magic scrolls, etc.) and experienced troopers. This is canon information from "Folks, Feuds & Factions". I might have the cleric/wiz levels wrong but essentially they are more than capable of taking out a single rampaging PC or multiples of. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad *And they know what they are doing as one 8th level PC noticed on APL4 table (before the new rule about levels was in effect) |
| bitznarf07-29-07, 03:17 AM | b) if PC is already breaking the law and is willing to kill local law enforcement people, then he is already way too deep in "evil acts" department and will get removed from the campaign anyway It always annoys me when I hear this sort of thing. Just because a PC is willing to kill guards doesn't mean that the PC is evil. It is the *circumstance* that affects that. I can think of many circumstances when a PC may be willing to kill local law enforcement people and I would not call it evil within the D&D alignment system. Law does not equal Good. Chaos does not equal Evil. |
| Zanzibax07-29-07, 09:35 AM | There probably won't be another race card for a long time. We wanted to delay this one to the next set to spread out the race cards, but we didn't have another card written to put into this set. If we do another race card, it would probably be three sets away, at the least, which makes it almost a year. No more "usually evil" races please. |
| Zanzibax07-29-07, 09:40 AM | But back to the original point of this (now, well hijacked) thread, Raptoran or Illumians. They are from supported books and are easy to "write into" the LG mythos. I think if you have to have one of these...it has to be raptoran with a series of modules where the raptoran breed are attempting to reclaim Oerth from their former slaves, the current occupants (all other humanoids). Probably start with some background identifying the Suahagin as off-shoots, and adequately populous under the seas to open a portal from the past...or...from whichever demi-plane the raptorans fled to in the first place. |
| Mommy was an Orc07-29-07, 09:57 AM | I think the issue might be with the time it would take to resolve such issues in a table. We have in previous regionals statted out town guards and such in case PCs start to cause trouble* but these days editors have told us that don't do it anymore. I think it is because a) It takes up space in a module b) if PC is already breaking the law and is willing to kill local law enforcement people, then he is already way too deep in "evil acts" department and will get removed from the campaign anyway c) Even if you have means to avoid them now (teleport, etc) then that PC is probably known by someone and the law enforcement can apprehend him elsewhere. It isn't just about that - it protects the players from a bad DM or out of control individual player. Just imagine the following circumstance: 5 reasonable players 1 tired, annoyed player 1 tired, annoyed DM Tired annoyed player commits a crime. DM starts marshalling guards. Tired annoyed player kills a guard. DM tries to haul them all in for questioning, but has so poisoned the well by this point, that the players think they're all going to get hanged for murder. What do you do? And remember this could easily be your 6th level Greyhawk Ruins character with Expedition a month or two away...wouldn't you rather just have an automatic, moderate TU penalty for the initial crime? |
| boolean07-29-07, 10:22 AM | Fortunately in Perrenland there is already a tribe of non evil Kobolds. They make excellent Assassin Vine Wine, and trade is strong with them, as well as with some HobGoblins. Those were goblins, not kobolds. I haven't seen a kobold in Perrenland since PER2-02 IIRC. |
| Zanzibax07-29-07, 03:07 PM | I dislike the trends I'm seeing. So many evil-minded people want to play evil characters. Please allow us to kill them off without losing our characters...there's a creation card for you to make, for us. |
| GreatSiron07-29-07, 03:25 PM | I dislike the trends I'm seeing. So many evil-minded people want to play evil characters. Please allow us to kill them off without losing our characters...there's a creation card for you to make, for us. Then they should go play XE. You can be evil in that. |
| haferka07-29-07, 03:27 PM | Back to the original subject... I would like to see a creation card for a special class... gnome artificers from the BK mod "Mad House"... They werent really artificers.. but it would be cool to allow any "gnome" pc to use the card for access to the artificer class. ...Perhaps allow the DM to have one of the artificers "gadgets" backfire once per mod... (just for flavor)... the infusion will NOT be wasted.. but the player still wastes the action to activate it. |
| Britt07-29-07, 04:03 PM | Say what? It's an IUZ mod, and I'm thinking maybe you should read the Adventure Background on that mod ;) |
| Timlagor07-29-07, 04:38 PM | I'm sure the circle are sane enough not to let Artificers in. |
| Samwise07-29-07, 05:21 PM | Oddly, artificers aren't all that bad. First, they are so optimized a support class, they have trouble doing any direct damage. Second, their crafting pool takes away one of the problems with the crafting feats - losing xp while increasing total character wealth. Third, the more overtly beneficial infusions require material components, and most all offensive magic items they would want would be consumables. That means a constant drain on all that total character wealth they are accumulating. |
| The_Jester07-29-07, 05:43 PM | Artificers rely heavily on Action Points which LG is not adapting and require far, far too many non-Core books (and Eberron specific ones). Never happen. |
| The_Jester07-29-07, 05:48 PM | Getting back on topic of the next creation card. We have several Core races in the LGCS and a new special variant race (snow elves) plus the kobolds and related feats. So it'd have to be something worth spending a card on and not something that can just be slipped into the LGCS. But a race that doesn't have so many new rules and potential feats that DMs have to be familiar with a half-dozen new rules. Goliaths or raptorans seem the best choices. A few new feats and PrC at best. |
| Banor07-29-07, 09:11 PM | Goliaths or raptorans seem the best choices. A few new feats and PrC at best. Goliath has to be one of the most broken race I ever saw. Especially when allowing their racial feat/level sub. Don't get me wrong i'd love to play one but they are far too broken for LG. |
| Hariman07-29-07, 10:16 PM | Goliath has to be one of the most broken race I ever saw. Especially when allowing their racial feat/level sub. Don't get me wrong i'd love to play one but they are far too broken for LG. Don't goliaths get "Powerful Build" with +4 str and +2 con (And -2 to only one ability score.)? Not to mention that +1 LA? No, I don't think we'll see goliaths as a race option anytime soon. In fact, I hope they get Closed. However, Raptorans, Dragonborn and Spellscales are all good. Spellscales are the only ones with problems, as they have that idiotic "unable to apologize" bull manure attached. They have to apologize without saying "I'm sorry" by saying things like "I'll work to prevent it from happening again." That no apology bull is the worst part of spellscales. And I think LG should make an exception and ignore it if Spellscales get into LG. It's just to volatile if the PCs are dealing with nobles or the easily offended. |
| Banor07-29-07, 10:20 PM | Dragonborn would be indeed awsome but not as a race card considering the concept of the race. And Goliath are much more than just that, Markings are insane, and Goliath Druid Sub is just plain broken... |
| lseelba07-30-07, 12:57 AM | Dragonborn would be indeed awsome but not as a race card considering the concept of the race. And Goliath are much more than just that, Markings are insane, and Goliath Druid Sub is just plain broken... Goliath Barb racial substitution is equally as broken. But I'll add my 2 cents to this thread. The next LG creation card will officially be... Hadozee! ...from Stormwrack Are you a monkey? Check. Can you fly (glide)? Check. When the next campaign card comes out, LG will be nothing but (non)-evil little lizards and flying monkeys. -Lou |
| Hariman07-30-07, 01:10 AM | Dragonborn would be indeed awsome but not as a race card considering the concept of the race. And Goliath are much more than just that, Markings are insane, and Goliath Druid Sub is just plain broken... Holy cow. The Goliath "Mark of" feats are insane. ANY initiative check. 3/day rerolls. Even for ATTACK rolls. And the Barbarian level one substitution level is insane! Combined with Reckless Rage, that's a +8 to STR from rage alone! STR 30 during rage at level 1. STR 34 as soon as you can get Dragon Disciple4 (Level 9)! And I agree, the druid subs are unbelievable. Illumian would need a long and close look at how the Sigils and Improved Sigils are balanced and how well they stack with certain class combinations. An illumian rogue/wizard/unseen seer would suffer no caster level loss from the rogue level. That would free up a feat. The sigils aren't as bad as I thought they were. BUT, I'm still a little leery. I don't think they're too gamebreaking. There might be some Improved Sigil feats that would need to be closed. |
| Timlagor07-30-07, 07:45 AM | I'd like to play a Spellscale but I do think they are too powerful for the Circle to let them in ..unless the Card included some special limitation. (Artificers can do fine without APs ..even if they weren't thematically problematic) |
| Hariman07-30-07, 09:29 AM | I'd like to play a Spellscale but I do think they are too powerful for the Circle to let them in ..unless the Card included some special limitation. (Artificers can do fine without APs ..even if they weren't thematically problematic) Why are they too powerful? Sure, you can use the blood quickening meditations to use different metamagic feats, or add damage against evil enemies, or use inflict or cure spell trigger or completion items. Yes, they are good benefits. But almost all of them are limited to 3/day or less. Only eschew materials, silent spell and still spell aren't. They can't be used for Prerequisites. And they aren't "Sudden" metamagics. You still have to pay the higher spell slot to use the metamagic feat. OK, yes, the Blood Quickening meditations stack nicely with Metamagic School Focus. But that's one combination that will be most useful for sorcerers and bards. A class which already lags behind wizards, clerics and druids with few spare feats. They gain few other racial abilities and they even take a CON hit for getting +2 cha. And the non caster Spellscales gain almost nothing. Unless they want to buy wands and scrolls of cure/inflict spells to use as weapons or healing. |
| copper_wyrmling07-30-07, 11:08 AM | Yes, they are good benefits. But almost all of them are limited to 3/day or less. Only eschew materials, silent spell and still spell aren't. They can't be used for Prerequisites. And they aren't "Sudden" metamagics. You still have to pay the higher spell slot to use the metamagic feat. OK, yes, the Blood Quickening meditations stack nicely with Metamagic School Focus. But that's one combination that will be most useful for sorcerers and bards. A class which already lags behind wizards, clerics and druids with few spare feats. They gain few other racial abilities and they even take a CON hit for getting +2 cha. And the non caster Spellscales gain almost nothing. Unless they want to buy wands and scrolls of cure/inflict spells to use as weapons or healing. All this is true - but to put it another way, spellscales are to sorcerers as grey elves are to wizards, except that spellscales also get the blood-quickening meditations which are nearly equivalent to a bonus floating feat. (Empower is probably the metamagic feat my sorcerer uses most, and I still don't use it 3x/day on most days.) I'd love to play one, but I agree with timlagor that they're pretty powerful for a LA+0 race. |
| AOSOL07-30-07, 12:14 PM | This may sound like a completely insane idea, but I think it would be a great one, Greyhawk evil. Something like 5 games a year written for evil characters and only accessible to those who've passed the herald level test and only played at the largest conventions. I'd just like to play the other side of the alignment wheel for a some games. I know a lot of player like to go to the tittering edge of the morality with the characters regularly; casting summon undead, wrack, Worshipping Vecna secretly and such. Why not let them for $30 a year. (cost from convention slots) |
| Hariman07-30-07, 12:32 PM | All this is true - but to put it another way, spellscales are to sorcerers as grey elves are to wizards, except that spellscales also get the blood-quickening meditations which are nearly equivalent to a bonus floating feat. (Empower is probably the metamagic feat my sorcerer uses most, and I still don't use it 3x/day on most days.) I'd love to play one, but I agree with timlagor that they're pretty powerful for a LA+0 race. And Grey Elf Wizards aren't? What about a Half Orc Barbarian? Halfling rogues? Low light vision, Dragonblood subtype, and the meditations. That's all that a spellscale gets. Spellscales barely get anything before the Blood Quickening meditations. They take the damn "+2 cha must be balance by a con hit" -2 con hit, and they get an ability that sets them above other spellcasters. Which makes sense as they are born closer to magic than most other races. And yes, a Spellscale Sorcerer does gain an advantage. Heck, even a spellscale wizard benefits. In fact, a wizard benefits more (Wizards always seem to benefit more), as a Spellscale wizard can gain Metamagic School Focus at level 1. Is +2 Cha and a few uses of a choice metamagic feat that bad? |
| Pint_Glass_Crusader07-30-07, 12:52 PM | Having just been reading "Races of the Wild" again, for some inspiriation. I'm suprised no one has mentioned [everyone's favourite green-skinned fey] the Killoren. They are LA+0, they are Fey (not humanoids... bonus!), they have a varied and interesting special ability [manifest nature's might] balanced with a [nuisance] penalty when using cold iron weapons. Combined with the some minor vision enhancements and immunities, surely this is the perfect candidate for a "Racial Creation Card" (which is after all the focus of this thread). Also the Killoren are easily written into LG canon, and have [probably] already been used in some modules... somewhere... have they? |
| cycloptic_squirrel07-31-07, 12:46 AM | What about some sort of one-eyed abboreal rodent with speech capabilities? Please? |
| Zanzibax07-31-07, 09:13 AM | What about some sort of one-eyed abboreal rodent with speech capabilities? Please? Space Hamsters? Really? :cool: |
| Samwise07-31-07, 11:40 AM | Space Hamsters? Really? :cool: Dire space hamsters have two eyes and are not arboreal. They are way cool though, and should definitely be allowed as animal companions and mounts for gnomes. Viva Wooly Rupert! |
| Fsi-Dib08-01-07, 01:31 AM | If we take classes in consideration, I might suggest Spirit Shaman. A slightly underpowered druid with different abilities (and a yummy 11th-level ability). Honestly though, I'd wish to see a fix for it. |
| Zanzibax08-01-07, 11:58 AM | This may sound like a completely insane idea, but I think it would be a great one, Greyhawk evil. Something like 5 games a year written for evil characters and only accessible to those who've passed the herald level test and only played at the largest conventions. I'd just like to play the other side of the alignment wheel for a some games. I know a lot of player like to go to the tittering edge of the morality with the characters regularly; casting summon undead, wrack, Worshipping Vecna secretly and such. Why not let them for $30 a year. (cost from convention slots) Told you so. |
| Lupo08-01-07, 01:58 PM | This may sound like a completely insane idea, but I think it would be a great one, Greyhawk evil. Something like 5 games a year written for evil characters and only accessible to those who've passed the herald level test and only played at the largest conventions. I'd just like to play the other side of the alignment wheel for a some games. I know a lot of player like to go to the tittering edge of the morality with the characters regularly; casting summon undead, wrack, Worshipping Vecna secretly and such. Why not let them for $30 a year. (cost from convention slots) it does not sound insane, it IS insane :P. what you would create is a totally different campaign:rolleyes: . fine, do it, but don't make LG spend any resources on it. those characters could not participate in the normal campaign, unless you do the cheesy trick of playing a neutral something character - so what character development do you expect? doing so for an elitist squad of campaign members would only fuel the conflict between "big con goers" and the "mostly home gamers" that is already causing some irking with the canceled "extended premiere program" and the uncertain status of "home game adaption" from the specials. and i already have experienced my score of players that ACT evil or do balance on the border, some do so by just claiming "hey my character is chaotic neutral, so he has no problems with killing innocents etc." others are just plainly don't bother with those things: "alignment of my character, what's that???" so go over to the xendric's tables ;) they ARE at the big cons already. ciao martin m. |
| chesspiece08-02-07, 08:19 AM | A number of Players asked if the Kobold card could be used to give access to an existing or non-Kobold PC. (I read the posts – you can’t.) Maybe the creation card doesn’t need to give access to a race, but simply a set of access (classes, feats, spells, equipment, substitutions)? How about cards for specific to a race that we can already play? You can add a bunch of access stuff to it, but you don’t need to worry about evil races or campaign continuity. In order to make it work, you’d need to consider whether the PC can ever “ditch” the card (temporarily / permanently losing access). Perhaps associate it with a Core region and force the created PC to be from that region during creation? They can’t ditch the card until they change Home Region. Then they lose access to the items on the card and can’t change back to the original Home Region. |
| ornsjach08-06-07, 02:42 AM | Spellscale or Dragon Born ether way it would be cool |
| Hariman08-06-07, 07:39 PM | A number of Players asked if the Kobold card could be used to give access to an existing or non-Kobold PC. (I read the posts – you can’t.) Maybe the creation card doesn’t need to give access to a race, but simply a set of access (classes, feats, spells, equipment, substitutions)? How about cards for specific to a race that we can already play? You can add a bunch of access stuff to it, but you don’t need to worry about evil races or campaign continuity. In order to make it work, you’d need to consider whether the PC can ever “ditch” the card (temporarily / permanently losing access). Perhaps associate it with a Core region and force the created PC to be from that region during creation? They can’t ditch the card until they change Home Region. Then they lose access to the items on the card and can’t change back to the original Home Region. Just please, if you give an existing race special access. Don't give Elves access to duskblade. It's just too cheesy to give ELVES access to duskblade. In fact, I'd rather see any "extra option" cards simply give class, prestige class, feat or alternate class feature access without tying it to race. (Unless, like the Dragonblood Alternate Class Features, it's already tied to race.) I second the Spellscale or Dragonborn request. And add in that Raptorans are a good option, as has been previously said. And maybe Illumians, if you take a close look at what the Sigils can do and make sure that they're balanced. |
| clannagh08-06-07, 07:45 PM | If we take classes in consideration, I might suggest Spirit Shaman. A slightly underpowered druid with different abilities (and a yummy 11th-level ability). Honestly though, I'd wish to see a fix for it. or *cough* Planar Shepherd just another slightly underpowered druid with*ahem* "different" abilities :) Shame its from a faerun book. |
| _metz_08-06-07, 09:57 PM | I don't really think we need that many more creation cards. I like the Kobolds as they hail from an area, and should be unique, but I feel LG will suffer if suddenly in a place where it is mostly SUPPOSED to be the major races in attendance, every adventuring party consists of Raptorans, Dragonborn (who really aren't a race and actually are too good) Kobolds, Snow Elves who don't live in the said region and Illumians. It doesn't represent the Greyhawk population very well. Admittedly, no Adventuring party does, but the above named party wouldn't be contacted by the Authorities in a lot of regions as they don't have any direct ties to them. (We need to save the Princess! - quick, hire the foreign group of adventurers!) I have chosen not to play a Snow Elf because it won't be able to get involved in Regional stuff, and will probably leave my Kobold for Cores, or even take it through Greyhawk Ruins if I get the card in time. Not sure really. |
| Hariman08-06-07, 10:39 PM | I don't really think we need that many more creation cards. Like Britt said, the Circle/Triad isn't planning on putting many Creation Cards out. The Kobold Card would have waited until the NEXT mailing, had it not been needed as the fifth card in this mailing. I think we'll see the regular mix of new and reprinted cards for the next two or three mailings. The next creation card has been stated as coming in either three or four mailings. I think I'd rather see Spellscale, Raptoran or Illumian before Dragonborn. Although Dragonborn would make more sense showing up in a mod or two than on a card. Characters are SUPPOSED to "hear the call of Bahamut" before becoming Dragonborn. Access could work like "Seeker of the Song" access. |
| _metz_08-06-07, 11:20 PM | Although Dragonborn would make more sense showing up in a mod or two than on a card. Characters are SUPPOSED to "hear the call of Bahamut" before becoming Dragonborn. Access could work like "Seeker of the Song" access. Problem is again, I reiterate, Dragonborn are too good. There are supposed to be roleplaying downsides to the class, but instead they are just better than everything else for no level adjustment. Not including their special abilities (such as free wings or breath weapon etc) You can have a Dwarf Dragon Born with +4 Con and -2 Dex and Cha. Might I add - That you can still be a Deepwarden Dwarf Dragonborn as per the special rules... Or a Wood Elf Dragon Born. Thats +2 str for -2 Int. (Every fighter will love that! its miles better than a Half Orc.) The Race is too good quite frankly. |
| Wraith23508-06-07, 11:23 PM | hes stated "Racial creation cards" thats why I'm hoping for some class based Cards .... Duskblade ... Dragon shaman ... Warkock ect |
| Hariman08-07-07, 01:11 PM | Problem is again, I reiterate, Dragonborn are too good. There are supposed to be roleplaying downsides to the class, but instead they are just better than everything else for no level adjustment. Not including their special abilities (such as free wings or breath weapon etc) You can have a Dwarf Dragon Born with +4 Con and -2 Dex and Cha. Might I add - That you can still be a Deepwarden Dwarf Dragonborn as per the special rules... Or a Wood Elf Dragon Born. Thats +2 str for -2 Int. (Every fighter will love that! its miles better than a Half Orc.) The Race is too good quite frankly. You have a point there. I just reread the Dragonborn entry. The wings are limited, you really only gain full use of them after level 12. But with the bonus to constitution, a 6th level dragonborn can use them for at least two rounds and cross most any pit WITHOUT using magic. And I hadn't noticed that the breath weapon was acid, cold, electricity or fire, changing with each use if desired. Heck, a Kobold Fighter would end up with +2 con and -2 str. Otherwise known as gnome bonuses. AND a Kobold would lose his racial sensitivity to light! The only great flaw is a Dragonborn loses all racial benefits from it's previous race. |
| chesspiece08-07-07, 02:38 PM | thats why I'm hoping for some class based Cards .... Duskblade ... Dragon shaman ... Warkock ect Stop right there! I don't want to know what game you've been playing! ;) http://www.studiofoglio.com/cgi/growf.cgi?date=20070715 :D |
| Wraith23508-07-07, 11:19 PM | Stop right there! I don't want to know what game you've been playing! ;) http://www.studiofoglio.com/cgi/growf.cgi?date=20070715 :D *Scratches head* HUH ? something tells me you linked the Wrong page .... and anyway I was just giving some examples |