Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jay_Ibero_911 06-28-07, 04:52 PM	Obviously the barbarian pounce is out...I'm also betting that travel devotion is out the window...it's pretty much a pseudo-pounce, and with one cleric level and 12 charisma you can use it 3 times per day. Further compound it by if you take celerity domain as your other domain aside from travel and you become insanely mobile. The only drawbacks are that you lose bab and a feat to do it, as well as consuming a swift action to activate the ability, so you can't get the extra movement in the round you activate it, and then further consuming your swift action whenever you use the extra movement...but still. I'm not saying I WANT it banned, because I think it would be incredibly fun to be that mobile, but it probably will be anyway...That and possibly the feat that allows the casting of all standard and full round paladin spells as a swift action at no further cost...but then again Paladins are pretty under-par anyway...
LachlarlanIII 06-28-07, 05:40 PM	Mythic Exemplar because of Sunyartra.
CdrcJsn 06-28-07, 06:28 PM	Honestly, I don't see the big deal about the pounce ability. At low levels it's of marginal benefit since you only get one attack anyways. At higher levels it just ends the standoff that regularly occurs (each side waits for the other to approach so they can full-attack). Shock Trooper makes a pounce attack really good at high levels...but not enough to make me want to ban anything. *Shrug* It lets barbarian types do an effective charge for once instead of attacking once and getting clobbered by the full attack they get as a counter. Cedric
solbergb 06-28-07, 06:37 PM	The problem isn't so much a normally built barbarian, although it is a considerable boost to their power for a trivial cost. The problem is that a level of barbarian can be added to any monster, this alternate ability given and any monster in any broken splatbook with any tweaked advancement no longer has to somehow get next to the party to do its full attack before anybody can react. There are plenty of EL approropriate melee monsters and builds that can pretty much kill any PC they are next to in one round of attacks. The odds of this kind of instant death go way up if you expand "reach+5'" to "2x movement+reach". At the moment the only way to get pounce on a build is to take 5 levels of druid and wildshape into a cat form, start out as a race/animal who already has pounce or be about a 12th level wildrunner. Allowing this in means everybody can pounce who isn't lawful (and heck, even lawful builds could exit barbarian and become lawful - as rage ceases to be the signature ability of barbarian with this alternate class ability - who cares if you lose it?). It's good enough that any melee character or creature that did NOT take the level of barbarian by the time they get an extra attack will be considered to be handicapping themselves. Remember when spikes got good enough that everybody abandoned any weapon that wasn't made of wood? It'd be like that except with class levels instead of the thing you bonk people with. A melee character would have a level of barbarian unless he "felt dirty" for doing it.
CdrcJsn 06-28-07, 06:54 PM	The problem is that a level of barbarian can be added to any monster, this alternate ability given and any monster in any broken splatbook with any tweaked advancement no longer has to somehow get next to the party to do its full attack before anybody can react. Author restraint (and their editors) can usually weed out broken monsters. Though given your experience with broken monsters, I can sorta see your point of view. However, even if this does make it easier to create broken monsters, most authors don't make encounters designed to auto-kill PCs. The rare few who do can make a broken encounter as easily without this feature as with it. At the moment the only way to get pounce on a build is to take 5 levels of druid, start out as a race/animal who already has pounce or be about a 12th level wildrunner. Just because something was previously unattainable til high levels doesn't necessarily make it a broken ability. Look at it objectively. Levels 1-5 the feature will have litte or no effect Levels 6-10 those PCs with full BAB can get an extra attack in. Levels 11+ full attacking on a charge is already in the campaign at this point, so there's no change here from a balance point of view. Looked at it this way, it only really benefits fighter/barb types at mid levels. The other effects of this feature is negligble (low levels) or already present (high levels). It makes it easier to create a character able to full attack on a charge, yes. Is that such an overpowered thing? Compared to smiting lance chargers, full attacking high strength archers and casters in general...the first attack from a BDF is usually pretty anemic. Cedric PS Yes, I realize TWF bbn/X types get a bigger benefit...but those types need all the help they can get :P
CdrcJsn 06-28-07, 06:59 PM	Remember when spikes got good enough that everybody abandoned any weapon that wasn't made of wood? It'd be like that except with class levels instead of the thing you bonk people with. A melee character would have a level of barbarian unless he "felt dirty" for doing it. People who min-max fighter types already have a level of barbarian in their builds for the ability to rage. Even now though, quite a few don't take Bbn even though it is mechanically superior because it doesn't fit their idea of their character
Mommy was an Orc 06-28-07, 07:39 PM	It makes it easier to create a character able to full attack on a charge, yes. Is that such an overpowered thing? Compared to smiting lance chargers, full attacking high strength archers and casters in general...the first attack from a BDF is usually pretty anemic. Except you're pouncing - i.e. charging. Allowing one to thoroughly abuse Shock Trooper. That it doesn't even cost a feat slot is a big thing.
Alpha_Nerd 06-28-07, 07:53 PM	That druid tactical feat definitely won't make it in. Bestial Charger or something?
Jay_Ibero_911 06-28-07, 08:48 PM	That druid tactical feat definitely won't make it in. Bestial Charger or something? Really? I mean druids are feat starved as it is, and I can't think of many forms that would get a HUGE benefit from the feat. Assuming a druid takes Fast Wild SHape, Swift Wild Shape, and Beastial Charge, that's 6th, 9th, and 12th level feats devoted to being able to immediately wild shape and charge, and it only works for the first charge after you wild shape. As opposed to the barbarian pounce which works for every charge and doesn't take a feat, and the Travel Devotion which takes a feat but works for a minute per use...
CdrcJsn 06-28-07, 09:18 PM	Except you're pouncing - i.e. charging. Allowing one to thoroughly abuse Shock Trooper. That it doesn't even cost a feat slot is a big thing. Abusing is a strong word. Is it a strong combo? Certainly. It's not the ultimate goal of every fighting build however. Otherwise, we should've seen more Wildrunner pounce starter builds when that book came out. I'm not convinced that a shock trooper/pounce build is overpowered. Just because something is at the top of the curve, doesn't necessarily follow that it's broken.
Mommy was an Orc 06-28-07, 10:31 PM	Abusing is a strong word. It is in this case appropriate. Barbarian 1/Fighter 4/Beastmaster 1/Something that advances a Mount. Get to full attack on a spirited charge at 6th level. Or get Pounce, Elusive Target and Shocktrooper by 6th. Is it a strong combo? Certainly. It's not the ultimate goal of every fighting build however. Otherwise, we should've seen more Wildrunner pounce starter builds when that book came out. Why? Wildrunner has several issues if you're going the Pounce route from it - namely, you tie up 6 levels with no feats and you're likely burning all your spare feats to get Shock Trooper in the first place. Unless you invested a lot into Charisma and dropped your BAB, you're likely a one trick pony. This doesn't even really tie up a feat or lose a BAB. You can pretty much go anywhere with it.
Simpi 06-28-07, 11:39 PM	The way I see and the strongest argument to keep the Pounce ability away is that is makes Barbarian even more of a dip class. Not only you get 7+con hitpoints from that level and rage but you would also get a pounce ability. And all that in the first level without any need to take further levels in it. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
_metz_ 06-29-07, 12:44 AM	Honestly, I don't see the big deal about the pounce ability. At low levels it's of marginal benefit since you only get one attack anyways. At higher levels it just ends the standoff that regularly occurs (each side waits for the other to approach so they can full-attack). Shock Trooper makes a pounce attack really good at high levels...but not enough to make me want to ban anything. *Shrug* It lets barbarian types do an effective charge for once instead of attacking once and getting clobbered by the full attack they get as a counter. Cedric Words cannot express the lack of knowledge on pounce. They just can't. 1 Level of barbarian and every build has Pounce. ONE LEVEL. Are you FREAKING serious? Its horribly horribly broken. MAYBE if you got it at like, level 5 at least, so people would have incentive to make a full barbarian, but with extra rage, Barbarian for one level for the win! EVERY non lawful melee build would want it. You have turned a base class into a 1 level dip. And thats not even getting started on if you have shocktrooper as well, or the fact that its not even a feat slot...
CdrcJsn 06-29-07, 03:22 AM	I know the uberness that is pounce. It's probably the most damaging attack a melee type can use with Shock Trooper. I just don't think it's all that broken. I also have a different opinion about the awfulness of one level dip classes. I don't see the problem. So what if most people will only want one level of a class because it makes a melee type more powerful? I don't cry foul right now at all the people currently taking a one level dip of Bbn for rage. The system is geared to allow PCs to take classes as much or as little as they want. As long as they follow the rules (and can explain their build with their character background), what's the problem? Mechanically, pounce is not an issue at low levels. This feature just makes pounce builds easier at mid and higher levels. Full attack on a charge? Spirited Chargers currently do X3 damage and get out of the way of any retaliation. A shock trooper has to stand there with his lowered AC and deal with any counterattack. Every melee build having the ability to pounce? Yeah, so? Being able to do a full round's worth of attack in the first round instead of the second doesn't sound so broken to me. If anything, melee types needed a way to end the stand off that usually occurs at high level where one side waits for the other to approach so they can trade off a full round attack vs their attacker's single attack. Don't get me wrong. I see how powerful that is. I just don't think it's broken. As for Bbn being a single level dip class...eh. I think it's a non-issue. Cedric PS if pounce builds become more common, I think we're gonna see a lot more PC deaths as BDFs charge at the bad guys, drop one, then drop to the opponent's counter attacks, 50' away from the rest of the party (and out of range of the cleric's Delay Death).
Madfox11 06-29-07, 03:53 AM	There is a prestige class that allows a PC to cast heroes feast at 7th level. I am not sure it is broken persee, but it is weird that the high level ability of this prestige class is much weaker than this ability and I already strongly dislike it at APL 10+. I am not sure I would like to see it at APL 6+...
Mommy was an Orc 06-29-07, 09:40 AM	Full attack on a charge? Spirited Chargers currently do X3 damage and get out of the way of any retaliation. A shock trooper has to stand there with his lowered AC and deal with any counterattack. This ups the damage Spirited Chargers do as well...Barbarian 1/Paladin 5 as an example. Also, yes, normally, a pouncing shock trooper isn't likely to be able to deal well with a counterattack - they just don't have the feats. But when the opportunity cost is near zero, they have the feats to get ways of dealing with it. It is easy to make a Shock Trooper with Elusive Target by 6th level. Barbarian 2/Fighter 4 1: Barbarian 1: Extra Rage, Power Attack 2: Fighter 1: Dodge 3: Fighter 2: Mobility, Improved Bullrush 4: Anything but Fighter that is fullBAB 5: Fighter 3 6: Fighter 4: Elusive Target, Shock Trooper You don't think that massively changes how APL 6 is going to work? Every melee build having the ability to pounce? Yeah, so? Being able to do a full round's worth of attack in the first round instead of the second doesn't sound so broken to me. If anything, melee types needed a way to end the stand off that usually occurs at high level where one side waits for the other to approach so they can trade off a full round attack vs their attacker's single attack. Then make it a feat chain. Or a Prestige Class(say like Wildrunner) - not every melee concept should require being a Barbarian - Extra Rage is already bad enough in an LG environment.
draxynnic 06-29-07, 09:48 AM	What I would ban from the Complete ChAmpION (Cheese Amplified through Induced Oscillation of Noncompetance)? The whole book. It'd be easier than trying to winnow out the few grains of not-horribly-broken wheat from the chaff. There'd be a few things that could then be trickled out, but I seriously think it'd be easier to declare the whole book Closed and then make exceptions than the other way around. The list would certainly be shorter. Being a little more serious, there are some specific examples that come to mind: The bard Healing Song alternate class feature. I have a 14th-level bard with a cleric cohort who has access to Close Wounds, which is why it stood out... The synergy that this has with the likes of Close Wounds and Insignia of Healing is insane. There are enough people complaining that it's hard enough to threaten someone with hit point damage as it is... Furthermore, it replaces Fascinate. Now, Fascinate can be nice, but the last time my 14th-level bard used it, she was level 7. Most of the Devotion feats. I hadn't actually noticed the Travel one... but consider the Good Devotion feat. It completely overlaps Glorious Weapons, lasts ten times as long, requires an immediate action rather than a standard to activate, and what's more it gives DR to boot. Then there's Protection Devotion. Immediate-action Shield of Faith for ALL! Except, you know, it's a sacred bonus, so it stacks with practically everything. Those are just the most obviously broken out of the Devotion feats. I won't go through them all individually, and there are some that are cute and flavourful rather than broken, but... I could start going into the various other feats and alternate class features, but the general point I'm going for is that I'd be going over it with a fine-toothed comb before allowing anything if I was the one making the decisions. There are probably more things that are broken than aren't. The prestige classes are decent at first glance (although I have heard people refer to the squire of legend as a super-cohort. Haven't read over it myself, so I can't comment). The Pelor/Heironeous ones are tainted by requiring Devotion feats, however (and for LG, shouldn't it be Pelor and Mayaheine? :P) and they all require membership of special organisations that may or may not actually fit into the campaign. PS Puggle Halfwine (the character played by the poster, not the poster) does about 70 points of damage on a charge on average... and he is (rather, was) a halfling. I really don't want to see what he'd be able to do with Pounce.
Cardinal Teplin 06-29-07, 10:04 AM	Say... Lance is a one-handed weapon, right? Is there any obvious reason why you couldn't make a sprited charge/pounce/shocktrooping/twfighter, and use a lance in each hand?
Mommy was an Orc 06-29-07, 10:22 AM	Say... Lance is a one-handed weapon, right? Is there any obvious reason why you couldn't make a sprited charge/pounce/shocktrooping/twfighter, and use a lance in each hand? That's a lot of feats there - 3 for Spirited Charge, 3 for Shocktrooper, 3 for TWF(OTWF, TWF, ITWF) Very difficult to do unless you don't maintain the mount.
katrick 06-29-07, 12:13 PM	Shhh! draxynic. The chosen of Velnius begin to cry and rain falls like the merry laughter of small children, on a hot roof in alice springs. I really like the Holt Warden don't ban it, lose wild shape extras and at 15th be a 12th rogue, 13th druid with extras, can anyone say eco- terrorist? katrick
lseelba 06-29-07, 01:06 PM	Travel Devotion is a bit rediculous. It's up there with pounce in my book.
solbergb 06-29-07, 01:09 PM	Abusing is a strong word. Is it a strong combo? Certainly. It's not the ultimate goal of every fighting build however. Otherwise, we should've seen more Wildrunner pounce starter builds when that book came out. . The reason it isn't the point of every build is there is a severe cost to get there. The other way to get a full attack sequence while moving is Dervish and it too has a huge feat requirement and limited/day uses even when you get there. Make the cost trivial and everyone will have it, because why the heck not? It's like giving an arcanist a new familiar that instead of a +2 save bump or +3 skill bump, it lets you imbue it with several top tier spells, letting you cast two spells in one round several times a day for essentially no cost except choosing that particular familiar instead of a raven or a cat. They're not even making you give up rage for this. So everyone who wants to be stronger will take barbarian (as they do) and everyone who wants to full attack on a charge will also take barbarian (right now it is far less common on builds that rely on many, smaller attacks). It also means that your shapeshifters can now do things like shock trooper in giant octopus form....8 attacks raises the shock trooper benefit to -1 AC for 8 damage, and you strike from 20' away so your counterattack threats are minimal - and swift fly means you can do this even out of the water. I don't object to another way of getting pounce. But why not sacrifice something only a L10 barbarian might have, such as the greater rage or his second DR/- point or something. Make it an endgame thing, as it is with dervishes, druid pounce builds and wildrunners. Getting it whenever it would be convenient for taking a single class is not ok. You will also never, ever see a barbarian that has fast movement again. That's a sign that the tradeoff is too cheap. Even the monk "deflect arrows vs combat reflexes" gets a few characters that prefer the deflect arrows (generally archers, who can't realy use reach weapons, often engage in ranged combat and typically good at spotting threats and normally have a hand free)
CdrcJsn 06-29-07, 01:33 PM	The reason it isn't the point of every build is there is a severe cost to get there. The other way to get a full attack sequence while moving is Dervish and it too has a huge feat requirement and limited/day uses even when you get there. By itself, pounce isn't really all that special. It just lets the fighter take a full attack on the first round instead of the second. It's the combo with various things like Shock Trooper that makes people cringe. Right now, one level of barbarian in any melee build is superior to one without due to rage. Yet not every melee build has a single level of barbarian. Does this make pounce an easy to build class feature? Yes. I just have no problem with that since I don't think it's that overpowering in the middle levels and at high levels melee tend to fall behind casters in terms of power. In my view, it's a needed fix to melee types more than a buff. Also, just because a particular feature used to be available at high levels and is now easily obtained doesn't necessarily follow that it's broken. Remember how quickened spells used to be unavailable to casters til 9th level? Now we have things that are swift and immediate action spells. It didn't break the game. I don't think this will either. Cedric PS By the way, I have no characters that are going to be impacted by this class feature. I just have a different idea of what's broken than most people I guess.
katrick 06-29-07, 01:37 PM	Travel Devotion is a bit rediculous. It's up there with pounce in my book. it's hell better than pounce, add 4 lvls of marshall for three move actions per round, throw in a quicken, some fiendish templates and make an Undead hydra.then give it pounce or a Ghost Kraken katrick
Simpi 06-29-07, 01:51 PM	Remember how quickened spells used to be unavailable to casters til 9th level? Now we have things that are swift and immediate action spells. It didn't break the game. I don't think this will either. Well, these immediate and swift spells rarely do stuff what proper quickened combat spell does. Sure, Close Wounds and quickened Scorching ray both take the same time to cast. Other just heals you for 1d4+5 while other potentially deals 12d6 damage... Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
CdrcJsn 06-29-07, 01:51 PM	This ups the damage Spirited Chargers do as well...Barbarian 1/Paladin 5 as an example. Ride By attack specifies a single attack so a spirited charger would have to choose between that and sticking around for any counter attacks (and we all know how those spirited chargers like being hit ;) ). It is easy to make a Shock Trooper with Elusive Target by 6th level. Barbarian 2/Fighter 4 1: Barbarian 1: Extra Rage, Power Attack 2: Fighter 1: Dodge 3: Fighter 2: Mobility, Improved Bullrush 4: Anything but Fighter that is fullBAB 5: Fighter 3 6: Fighter 4: Elusive Target, Shock Trooper You don't think that massively changes how APL 6 is going to work? No, not really. The only thing that the pounce will do to this build is to allow the iterative attack on a charge. Otherwise, I've already seen this build in play. It's a strong build. Still don't think it's broken. Look at some CR8 creatures this character could be fighting or better yet look up an encounter in some mods you've played and see how this guy does. The last fight I was in would've allowed this guy to drop an orc each round...but would've died to the other 8 orcs surrounding the party (warrior orcs that were hasted and had +2/+3 bard song), especially if he charged them to use his Shock Trooper. I guess I just have a different opinion of what constitutes broken. Letting melee types do gobs of damage on the first round of a fight doesn't really cause me any worry.
CdrcJsn 06-29-07, 01:54 PM	Well, these immediate and swift spells rarely do stuff what proper quickened combat spell does. Sure, Close Wounds and quickened Scorching ray both take the same time to cast. Other just heals you for 1d4+5 while other potentially deals 12d6 damage... Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad Second level spell compared to a 6th level spell. Compare instead to a chained Delay Death.
Jay_Ibero_911 06-29-07, 02:43 PM	Ride By attack specifies a single attack so a spirited charger would have to choose between that and sticking around for any counter attacks (and we all know how those spirited chargers like being hit ;) ). RIDE-BY ATTACK [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat. Benefit: When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge). Your total movement for the round can’t exceed double your mounted speed. You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that you attack. Special: A fighter may select Ride-By Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats. I don't see anything in ride-by attack that specifies a single attack...
Mommy was an Orc 06-29-07, 03:05 PM	Ride By attack specifies a single attack so a spirited charger would have to choose between that and sticking around for any counter attacks (and we all know how those spirited chargers like being hit ;) ). It says no such thing. You get to 'move and attack as if with a standard charge'. Someone who is making a standard charge with Pounce gets to make a full attack. Look at some CR8 creatures this character could be fighting or better yet look up an encounter in some mods you've played and see how this guy does. A significant percentage of encounters are 1-3 creatures, where if you blow away one creature, you can dodge buddy the other one with Elusive Target and only allow the other creature one hit on you. Hitting twice(or more) with Shock Trooper tends to do just that. And if they don't engage you, you'll get to charge one the next round too. Pounce with Shock Trooper will break a lot of encounters. That's my definition of broken.
CdrcJsn 06-29-07, 06:09 PM	I don't see anything in ride-by attack that specifies a single attack... You're right. I got the impression of a single attack when I first glanced at the feat, but I read it wrong.
CdrcJsn 06-29-07, 06:20 PM	A significant percentage of encounters are 1-3 creatures, where if you blow away one creature, you can dodge buddy the other one with Elusive Target and only allow the other creature one hit on you. Hitting twice(or more) with Shock Trooper tends to do just that. How significant is "a significant percentage of encounters"? The last 2 mods I've played at APL8, a Shock Trooper pouncer would've done more damage than one without either feat or ability, but wouldn't dominate the combat. In fact, in the second fight of the last mod, he would've done less than average damage (terrain fight, heavily dependent on archers and casters). And if they don't engage you, you'll get to charge one the next round too. Pounce with Shock Trooper will break a lot of encounters. That's my definition of broken. Glitterdust and other spells also have the potential to "break" a lot of encounters. It all depends on the foes you fight. Pounce will definitely give fighters a leg up on damage dealing, especially in the critical first rounds of a fight. I just don't think it crosses into broken territory. It's a moot point in LG anyways. This ability isn't going to be appearing in any mods or metaorgs available to PCs anytime soon. Cedric Atizado
lseelba 06-29-07, 07:33 PM	Personally I would not allow iterative attacks of any type with a Ride-by Attack. It is such a perversion of the intent of the rules. I'd have no issue with charging and making a full attack if you had pounce, but since I doubt barb pounce will make it into LG (or Xendrik) its not really an issue.
Biota 06-29-07, 07:34 PM	It says no such thing. You get to 'move and attack as if with a standard charge'. Someone who is making a standard charge with Pounce gets to make a full attack. So Zombies with spirited charge and barbarian pounce can benefit from this. For normal PCs charging is a full-round action. Charge Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. However, it carries tight restrictions on how you can move. ... If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn. Emphasis on the last line mine. The standard charge can only be done if you are limited to a standard or move action. Or am I missing something?
King Kashue 06-29-07, 07:43 PM	So Zombies with spirited charge and barbarian pounce can benefit from this. For normal PCs charging is a full-round action. Emphasis on the last line mine. The standard charge can only be done if you are limited to a standard or move action. Or am I missing something? "standard" charge means "normal" or "usual" charge, not "charge with a standard action"...
Sieylianna 06-29-07, 10:07 PM	How significant is "a significant percentage of encounters"? The last 2 mods I've played at APL8, a Shock Trooper pouncer would've done more damage than one without either feat or ability, but wouldn't dominate the combat. In fact, in the second fight of the last mod, he would've done less than average damage (terrain fight, heavily dependent on archers and casters). You're largely missing the point. If it just affected fighters, it wouldn't be that bad. I have a dual wielding rogue who would gladly take a level of barbarian to get a full attack worth of sneak attack damage. I also have a dual wielding swashbukler who would like to do the same thing. At low levels, it is a big aid for two weapon fighting. Ed
CdrcJsn 06-30-07, 12:19 AM	You're largely missing the point. If it just affected fighters, it wouldn't be that bad. I have a dual wielding rogue who would gladly take a level of barbarian to get a full attack worth of sneak attack damage. I also have a dual wielding swashbukler who would like to do the same thing. At low levels, it is a big aid for two weapon fighting. Ed I'm not missing the point. TWF rogues need all the help they can get. Many already take a single level of Bbn for the increased movement and extra damage not dependent on sneaks. Except for the synergy with shock trooper and spirited chargers, the only thing pounce gives ANY melee type is the ability to take a full attack on the first round rather than the second. I don't find that broken, just because it was previously unavailable. Again though, it's moot in LG. This class feature won't appear in any metaorgs or mods.
draxynnic 06-30-07, 06:29 AM	Part of the issue is the combination with other feats that increase the effectiveness of a charge. Combine Pounce with Spirited Charge, and that charge is effectively three times as powerful as a regular full attack if you're using a lance, two times if not. Even if you're not mounted, a full attack on a charge also allows Shock Trooper. Shock Trooper is nasty enough when you only get one attack - a full attack, certainly at high APLs, where you don't need to take your damage bonus off your attack bonus... well, sure you're going to be vulnerable afterwards, but do you really expect the target to survive to hit you back? Especially if you then combine it with Spirited Charge again... Keep in mind that everything you can use, the writers can too - and they might have bigger things to put them on. Do you REALLY want to face the prospect of being charged by a mammoth-riding frost giant with Spirited Charge, Shock Trooper, and Pounce? I certainly don't.
_metz_ 06-30-07, 06:50 AM	Part of the issue is the combination with other feats that increase the effectiveness of a charge. Combine Pounce with Spirited Charge, and that charge is effectively three times as powerful as a regular full attack if you're using a lance, two times if not. Even if you're not mounted, a full attack on a charge also allows Shock Trooper. Shock Trooper is nasty enough when you only get one attack - a full attack, certainly at high APLs, where you don't need to take your damage bonus off your attack bonus... well, sure you're going to be vulnerable afterwards, but do you really expect the target to survive to hit you back? Especially if you then combine it with Spirited Charge again... Keep in mind that everything you can use, the writers can too - and they might have bigger things to put them on. Do you REALLY want to face the prospect of being charged by a mammoth-riding frost giant with Spirited Charge, Shock Trooper, and Pounce? I certainly don't. Exactly, add pounce to ANY monster or NPC by a simple 1 level of barbarian. Pretty sure pounce is worth more than +1 CR
jstorrie 06-30-07, 07:07 PM	Battle Blessing [General]: Rewards Paladins who have put points into Wisdom–which I think is a good idea–but will probably be seen as overpowered. All Devotion feats: Clerics are already good, and while a few of these feats are stinkers, a few of them look broken. The category as a whole will probably be kept out. Imbued Healing [Metamagic]: Too much of a good thing. Mythic Exemplar: Too complicated. Sanctified One: Too good. Shadowstriker: Badge of Office ability likely unbalanced in certain regions. Squire of Legend: Too complicated. Charnel Miasma [Reserve]: Death domain generally not available to PCs, right? But I don't think that Bestial Charge [Tactical] needs banning: Wildshaping druids took some big hits recently, and I think this shores them up. It competes with Natural Spell and some other decent level-6 feats, giving it an appropriate opportunity cost.
Hariman 06-30-07, 10:55 PM	I agree with the "No Barbarian Pounce". It would be so popular that it would require a free rebuild to correct the abuse of it. Plus, can you imagine what a Barbarian1/FighterX/Exotic Weapon Master1/Tempest5 could do with two bastard swords TWF, ITWF and GITWF? Better yet, an Unseen Seer Gish who is invisible OR greater blinking charging in for full attack sneak attack? It's broken like the Abjurant Champion. IE: Too good to NOT take.
Simpi 07-01-07, 09:12 AM	Question: Does anyone here think that Ordained Champion is too broken? I consider giving access to it through our Church of Heironeous affiliation. Note however that in this case getting it after level 4 is highly unlikely as our MOs work like affiliations and access is only given on affiliation level 11+ onwards. This probably reduces it's power slightly. Cheers. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
jstorrie 07-01-07, 01:55 PM	Yes, it's too broken–a Cleric X / Ordained Champion 4 can quicken a flame strike per round with no metamagic adjustment, and at +2 or more caster level, too.
bitznarf 07-01-07, 02:07 PM	Yeah, those type of bonuses are exactly the type that it appears the circle has been trying to 'get rid of'. Note the path DMM and DSP went.
Franco Un-American 07-01-07, 06:54 PM	I'll say no. The auto-quicken looks broken, but it's only applicable to War domain spells. For it, you give up 2 caster levels (death to any casting-focused cleric), that are just made up for a 5th level (and then, only for War spells), and most importantly, you give up the ability to spontaneously cast cure spells. This single disadvantage puts the Ordained Champion at mediocre at best.
copper_wyrmling 07-01-07, 10:56 PM	I'll say no. The auto-quicken looks broken, but it's only applicable to War domain spells. For it, you give up 2 caster levels (death to any casting-focused cleric), that are just made up for a 5th level (and then, only for War spells), and most importantly, you give up the ability to spontaneously cast cure spells. This single disadvantage puts the Ordained Champion at mediocre at best. Losing caster levels is bad, but practised spellcaster partially compensates, and quickened divine power as a L4 spell instead of L8 is worth a LOT to melee-cleric builds - it's why people used to build melee clerics with extra turning and otherwise needlessly high Cha scores, so they could use divine metamagic (quicken), and that required several feats and was only achievable once or twice / day. Quickened flamestrikes and blade barriers aren't half bad either. (Note that I don't have the book, I'm just going off what people have said about the class.)
_metz_ 07-01-07, 11:15 PM	Exactly. Free quickened Divine Power? Thats so broken it has come round, mended itself, then promptly gone and broken itself again.
Franco Un-American 07-01-07, 11:53 PM	Still not worth the loss of spontaneous cures.
copper_wyrmling 07-02-07, 03:12 AM	Still not worth the loss of spontaneous cures. Do you get some other form of spontaneous casting in exchange? A lot of battle clerics don't want to heal in combat, and for out-of-combat healing, the vigor spells are better than cures anyway (even in-combat, Insignia of Healing is usually better at the low-mid levels, and Heal at the mid-high levels). I think the loss of two caster levels sounds like the biggest penalty for the class - and it is a substantial one - but getting effectively eight levels of casting advancement for the purpose of casting quickened divine power (i.e. you can do it when you cast as a L7 cleric, rather than as a L15 cleric) seems very powerful if your normal strategy in combat is to self-buff and hit things. I've seen several L15 battle clerics prep Quickened Divine Power using their precious L8 slots, because being able to get full BAB, +6 Str and +CL temp HP as a swift action is worth the top-tier spell slot - having it in a L4 slot just seems wrong. Does the prestige class have difficult prereqs? If it requires four feats you would never normally take and the "quickened War spells" ability can only be used 1/day, then scratch everything I just said above, heavy prereqs and limited uses / day can make otherwise overpowered abilities quite reasonable.
jstorrie 07-02-07, 01:43 PM	You trade your spontaneous cures for spontaneous War domain spells, and at the fourth level of the prestige class, all War domain spells that you spontaneously cast are quickened for free. There are no difficult prereqs. The feat you need is provided by War domain–but don't consider one of your domains to be a loss, since the prestige class gives you another bonus domain of your choice anyway. Heironeus has great domain selection anyway: Glory, Courage, Nobility! You can take Spontaneous Healer to get your spontaneous cures back. You lose two levels of caster progression, so you don't get Flame Strike until level 11–but you get +2 caster level when casting War domain spells, AND can take Practiced Spellcaster (and Domain Focus, if you want, and any number of other synergistic feats to abuse the heck out of a free Flame Strike per round.) And you can get into the prestige class from Cleric 4, giving you two levels to mash in a second prestige class before your brutal firehose of swift Flame Strikes even come online. So, yes, Ordained Champion is definitely out. It's way, way too good. The loss of spontaneous cures is remedied with a single feat, so the only thing you really lose is two levels of caster progression–a hit, to be sure, but nothing that balances out infinite free quicken spell. War domain spells are ones you'll want to quicken every round. Can you imagine running into an Ordained Champion NPC? Or a small pack of them? TPK city. Half of flamestrike damage can't be prevented, remember.
Simpi 07-02-07, 01:49 PM	Looks like it will be out then.... Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
solbergb 07-02-07, 01:56 PM	You trade your spontaneous cures for spontaneous War domain spells, and at the fourth level of the prestige class, all War domain spells that you spontaneously cast are quickened for free. Hm. Round 1 quickened divine power and full attack round 2 + quickened spiritual weapon and full attack After level 11 Round 1, quickened divine power and full attack Round 2+, quickened flame strike and full attack. At level 15, he can mix in some blade barriers too, quickened. with practiced spellcaster worked in he's maxing out the flame strikes at level 13, and can retrain away the practiced spellcaster whenit no longer helps. Hm. Yeah I do see a problem here. If he can't full attack then round 1 is kind of backwards of the usual - quickened divine power and regular divine favor and move, assuming he doesn't want to drop some area boom.
jstorrie 07-02-07, 02:41 PM	And that's just one class feature–you also get up to two bonus fighter feats (in exchange for lacklustre domain powers you didn't use anyway), turn undead progression, an improved skill list, Diehard, a smite ability, spellsword-style Channel Spell, damage reduction, pseudo-Arcane Strike and the ability to swap your Wis mod in for your Str mod in combat. This prestige class is a real grab bag of sweet abilities.
bitznarf 07-02-07, 04:21 PM	I think what they were trying to do is make up for the lost 2 caster levels. After all, in a non LG game where nightsticks and DMM are available, losing 2 caster levels to get autoquickened spells from one domain list is not a big deal.
Mattastrophic 07-02-07, 04:59 PM	The bard Healing Song alternate class feature. I have a 14th-level bard with a cleric cohort who has access to Close Wounds, which is why it stood out... The synergy that this has with the likes of Close Wounds and Insignia of Healing is insane. There are enough people complaining that it's hard enough to threaten someone with hit point damage as it is... Furthermore, it replaces Fascinate. Now, Fascinate can be nice, but the last time my 14th-level bard used it, she was level 7. Let me make a bold statement here... Just because something new is superior to something existing does not make it too powerful!!! Fascinate stinks. Healing Song is an improvement. Just like how Arcane Trickster stinks and Unseen Seer is an improvement. Someone on this board somewhere quoted the WotC designers on PHB2, in which it was reported that the designers were introducing alternate class features that were significant improvements over their PHB counterparts, example given was Distracting Shot for Ranger4, because the PHB version stank. So things like Healing Song, Complete Champion Paladin and Ranger, Complete Champion rogues being able to sneak attack undead, Complete Champion sorcerers, Complete Champion monks being able to bypass DR/good, etc... They were written to improve upon things that currently stink. -Matt
Genghis Cohen 07-02-07, 08:50 PM	Losing caster levels is bad...Losing caster levels makes the baby Wee Jas cry.
magebeast 07-02-07, 08:59 PM	Complete Champion sorcerers -Matt This alternate class feature sucks pretty hard.
Franco Un-American 07-02-07, 11:00 PM	Also, note that Heling Hymn is already in the campaign.
copper_wyrmling 07-02-07, 11:16 PM	Let me make a bold statement here... Just because something new is superior to something existing does not make it too powerful!!! Fascinate stinks. Healing Song is an improvement. Just like how Arcane Trickster stinks and Unseen Seer is an improvement. Someone on this board somewhere quoted the WotC designers on PHB2, in which it was reported that the designers were introducing alternate class features that were significant improvements over their PHB counterparts, example given was Distracting Shot for Ranger4, because the PHB version stank. So things like Healing Song, Complete Champion Paladin and Ranger, Complete Champion rogues being able to sneak attack undead, Complete Champion sorcerers, Complete Champion monks being able to bypass DR/good, etc... They were written to improve upon things that currently stink. -Matt Sure (although I don't agree that most of your examples stink), but just because something is better than a previously weak option doesn't mean it's not overpowered! Sometimes the designers go too far, or are writing for a different power level than we expect in LG. Comparing to existing abilities is one way to gauge the power level of new options. (Look at the Closed list. The designers' ideas do not always coincide with what's appropriate for LG, and nor should they - the books provide options, it's expected that GMs will pick and choose what they want in their games.) Incidentally, I do think Unseen Seer is broken, because it changes the entire concept of what a rogue should be. Unseen Seer doesn't just make Arcane Trickster obsolete, it comes pretty close to making Rogue obsolete. That's an argument for a different thread though (it's popped up a few times already).
_metz_ 07-03-07, 12:59 AM	You trade your spontaneous cures for spontaneous War domain spells, and at the fourth level of the prestige class, all War domain spells that you spontaneously cast are quickened for free. There are no difficult prereqs. Garh? And that's just one class feature–you also get up to two bonus fighter feats (in exchange for lacklustre domain powers you didn't use anyway), turn undead progression, an improved skill list, Diehard, a smite ability, spellsword-style Channel Spell, damage reduction, pseudo-Arcane Strike and the ability to swap your Wis mod in for your Str mod in combat. This prestige class is a real grab bag of sweet abilities. Garrrrhhh??? Horribly Broken, more so then I even thought initially. Closed. In the Face. On another note I totally agree that some things being better does not equate to overpowered. however, with the example of Unseen Seer that IS overpowered and makes two whole core classes redundant. (A PHB iconic base class, and a DMG Iconic prestige class), and should at least not be open access. I personally am all for the 'non' overpowered stuff getting in, however, there are often ramifications of things that are not seen, and as such stuff can't be granted 'open' until its sort of been tested a bit. NONC is a reasonable way of doing this. (Which again raises the question of Unseen Seer = Why?)
Hariman 07-03-07, 02:37 AM	(Which again raises the question of Unseen Seer = Why?) If you look at the Unseen Seer, it does have some heavy prereqs. It takes a decent number of cross class ranks in multiple skills to gain entry and you give up a level of casting. You also MUST take practiced spellcaster to keep your non divination spellcasting up to par. (Otherwise you lose your ability to cast top tier non-divination spells.) Admittedly, yes, it is more powerful than the arcane trickster. But the arcane trickster wasn't all that spectacular to begin with. Proper entry to the AT loses THREE levels of spellcasting, and even a cheesed out entry loses two levels of spellcasting. (Barring an unseen seer dip.) As a side note: Some alternate class features have been designed to be BETTER than the original to make up for how underwhelming the original was. The Ranger's distracting shot is one such example. Unfortunately, I don't have the Complete Champion yet. What is the sorcerer alternate class feature? (Without violating any OGL rules.)
Evanta 07-03-07, 07:16 AM	Looks like it will be out then.... Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad Um, any possibility of allowing up to level 3 Ordained Champion for the flavour though?
Mattastrophic 07-03-07, 09:20 AM	Unseen Seer doesn't just make Arcane Trickster obsolete, it comes pretty close to making Rogue obsolete. That's an argument for a different thread though (it's popped up a few times already). To close that sidenote, I'm of the opinion that Unseen Seer doesn't make Rogue obsolete; the Complete Adventurer spell list makes Rogue obsolete. -Matt
solbergb 07-03-07, 09:54 AM	If you look at the Unseen Seer, it does have some heavy prereqs. It takes a decent number of cross class ranks in multiple skills to gain entry and you give up a level of casting. There is no such thing as a cross-class skill now that we have retraining. Rogues don't have caster levels. So all casting you get is a bonus. Beguilers don't even need to lose any caster levels, should you go that way. It is a class so good that you pretty much have to have roleplay reasons not to take it if you want a roguelike character. It's the sublime chord (for caster bards) of rogue classes, but you enter it at level 5ish instead of level 11.
Banor 07-03-07, 10:53 AM	While i agree on the fact that Ordained Champion is a pretty good class, don't forget that he still have some weakness. Its a very casting dependant PrC, requiring that you have the ability to cast the good stuff in Cleric (mostly lvl4 spells) to be effective. Also most of his class features requires some spell casting (Channel spell, Divine Bulwark, Fire of the Gods), can agree that quickening 1-3 War domain is utterly useless. The thing is that you actually loose 2 caster levels quite early (5 and 7) making you able to cast Divine power at level 9. Don't forget that you will need a good Wisdom to be able to cast these spells and that wisdom takes your very usefull Neck slot. Holy warrior class feature isnt worth it as your strength and your Wisdom should be pretty much the same (after buffs). Also to use most of your class abilities you will need a good Charisma(and multiple turn undead if you want to fuel them all) brigning you very close to MAD (Str, Con, Wis,Cha) Also this is very limited on the PrC that you can get after. A normal cleric would get in at 4 and out a 9. There is 6 more levels to get. You could go back into cleric but it will decrease your normal BAB (thus relying even more on your spellcasting ability) and bring you back to feat starvation (something that battle clerics are already suffering, even more with having to drop few feats into Extra Turning to be able to use your main abilities). If you go to fighter way, you are going to get feats and BAB but will loose turn progression (and making your smite ability much less wanted) and your CL (making divine bulwark, Fire of the Gods and Channel spells useless as well as your mighty I can quicken Divine power once a day !) Overall its a very solid class i agree but far from overpowered as some people listed it.
copper_wyrmling 07-03-07, 11:16 AM	You could go back into cleric but it will decrease your normal BAB You have spontaneous divine power as a swift action. BAB is almost irrelevant when a single swift action makes it equal to your character level. I'd go straight back into cleric and happily dip full-casting PrCs in the knowledge that I could have BAB 5 at L15 and it wouldn't matter in the slightest once combat starts. (making divine bulwark, Fire of the Gods and Channel spells useless as well as your mighty I can quicken Divine power once a day !) If quickened divine power is 1/day, sure. If it's only limited by how many L4+ slots you have (as stated in earlier posts), then for most clerics, that's more than 1/day even when you first get the spell - at later levels you'll never run out of castings in an LG scenario.
Banor 07-03-07, 11:34 AM	You have spontaneous divine power as a swift action. BAB is almost irrelevant when a single swift action makes it equal to your character level. I'd go straight back into cleric and happily dip full-casting PrCs in the knowledge that I could have BAB 5 at L15 and it wouldn't matter in the slighest once combat starts.. As i said if you go full caster, you are making the bet that you wont ever need a L4 spell for other thing that Divine Power and that Divine power will never be dispelled. Also, that also mean that you will most likely never have any feats other than Extra Turning (exagerating but you get the idea). So yes you would be pretty strong in combat but you have to consider that you got no feats at all working for you during these. All you got is feats to be able to fuel your class features. As i said, strong but not broken
Simpi 07-03-07, 11:56 AM	Um, any possibility of allowing up to level 3 Ordained Champion for the flavour though? I was talking about access to limited prestige classes in our region, not LG as whole. Our draft version for church of Heironeous offered it but no longer as it's brokeness has been discussed above, I doubt Circle could or would even consider issuing a rule that "from this day onwards, you shall only take 3 levels of class X". Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
Genghis Cohen 07-03-07, 12:27 PM	There is no such thing as a cross-class skill now that we have retraining...What do you mean by this?
Mommy was an Orc 07-03-07, 12:30 PM	What do you mean by this? If you need to keep leveling a skill, typically because you're a skill monkey, it is a lot cheaper to just rotate 1-4 skills via retraining rather than cross-class.
jstorrie 07-03-07, 12:36 PM	While i agree on the fact that Ordained Champion is a pretty good class, don't forget that he still have some weakness. What? Even at character level 6 you can throw out quickened Spiritual Weapons. MAD? Feh. All you'll really want is Wisdom, Wisdom, Wisdom–probably dumping Int for a 14 10 14 16 8 12 spread–because you'll chew through every combat once you get Rapid Spontaneous Casting, War Caster and Flame Strike. Competent battle cleric from levels 1-10, completely broken walking artillery (who is still a competent battle cleric) from 11 onward. But even before then, quickening a Spiritual Weapon every round will cakewalk combats for you. Sure, your BAB goes goes back to approaching 3/4 if you take more Cleric levels, but who cares about BAB once you can quicken Divine Power and Flame Strike? You can do so far more than once per day, you know...
pedr 07-03-07, 12:37 PM	It's not quite true to say 'there are no such things as cross-class skills'. The would-be Occult Slayer still has to either take a level of a class with Knowledge (arcane) and Spellcraft as class skills or invest a vast number of skill points in them as cross-class skills - as you can only transfer skill ranks into a skill which is a class skill for a class you have at least one level of.
solbergb 07-03-07, 12:41 PM	For unseen seer - it's true that there is no such thing as a cross-class skill. The other requisites require a level in a class that has the required skills. Which means you can retrain "bad" skill points into "good" ones.
Banor 07-03-07, 01:07 PM	You talk as if you have Flame strike at will. Most time per day i can see you will have is 4+1(high wisdom) and +1 domain (or maybe 1 more if you blow an expensive PoP5 for that ). That is 7 Flame strike max, considering the level 5 spells (righteous might is a perfect exemple) there is good chances that you will cast it maybe 4 or 5 times. While you keep swigning during these times, remember that you will have a very subpar damage, as you are basically a fighter with no feats. Most of your damage will come from your smite ability which you can only do once per round for 1 strike.... at least you can push these quicken Flame strike to bump your damage dealing abilities. You will most likely have 2-3 warrior feats (from the dropped domains) considering the need for extra smite and CWI (due to stats needs). With all that you are aiming for what 1d8+10+1 handed power attack + 1 smite per round ? If you go 2hander you will gain a little damage but will be sacrificing the tiny bit of surviability that you had.. Don't get me wrong its a good class, but i fail to see how is it overpowered compared to Barb1/FighterX/EWM1 with shock trooper and combat brute...
solbergb 07-03-07, 01:11 PM	how many rounds of combat do you fight a day? 5 rounds is a lot of those rounds, plus the 3 rounds you cast divine power... Most casters burn their top two tiers in a "long day" of LG adventuring. These guys can burn their top two tiers AND full attack. You also aren't a fighter with no feats. The class gives feats, and you don't really need your general feats for anything except melee stuff. You aren't, after all, doing the healer or support caster role. You're a melee that has free zaps. You can engage the front liner AND blast the backrankers.
Jay_Ibero_911 07-03-07, 01:19 PM	As i said if you go full caster, you are making the bet that you wont ever need a L4 spell for other thing that Divine Power and that Divine power will never be dispelled. Also, that also mean that you will most likely never have any feats other than Extra Turning (exagerating but you get the idea). So yes you would be pretty strong in combat but you have to consider that you got no feats at all working for you during these. All you got is feats to be able to fuel your class features. As i said, strong but not broken Uh...why would you need to take extra turning at all? The only class feature that uses up turn attempts is the smite, and that uses a swift action to activate too. In fact pretty much all of the class features require swift actions, so you'll have to make a lot of tactical decisions as far as what is the fastest way to end combat. For instance, at high levels you will probably use a swift action for divine power, then move up and attack. Next round perhaps burn a spell slot as a swift action to increase damage with Fist of the Gods. And then in subsequent rounds likely spent swift actions to smite with your first attack each round. Or they can be full attacking under divine power, and very quickly burn through spell slots on swift flame strike, or even blade barrier. Here's a very simple Ordained Champion build that has all the crafting and casting benefits of a cleric (minus 2 caster levels), and just about as many combat tricks as a fighter/barbarian: Race:Human Alignment:Lawful Good (War, Courage) STR-14 (6) DEX-10 (2) CON-14 (6) INT-8 (0) WIS-15 (8) CHA-14 (6) Lv1(Cleric)Extra Turning, Divine Might, Weapon Focus (Longsword) Lv2(Cleric) Lv3(Cleric)Craft Wondrous Item Lv4(Cleric)+1 WIS Lv5(Ordained Champion)Swap Courage and bonus domain for Power Attack and Improved Toughness Lv6(Ordained Champion)Spontaneous Healer, Diehard Lv7(Ordained Champion) Lv8(Ordained Champion)+1 WIS Lv9(Ordained Champion)Craft Magic Arms & Armor Lv10(Cleric) Lv11(Cleric) Lv12(Cleric)Feat, +1 WIS Lv13(Cleric) Lv14(Cleric) Lv15(Cleric)Feat Spontaneous Healer gets around the modified spontaneous casting, and you should only need to spontaneously cure a few times per day anyway. Divine Might helps your damage early on, and only gets better as you craft better charisma cloaks. 15 wisdom should be fine to start, because you won't be relying too heavily on saves anyway, and with a periapt +6 and all bumps to wisdom you still get bonus slots for your highest tier spells.
Hariman 07-03-07, 06:45 PM	For unseen seer - it's true that there is no such thing as a cross-class skill. The other requisites require a level in a class that has the required skills. Which means you can retrain "bad" skill points into "good" ones. Actually, I'm planning on doing this with Sense Motive. Probably not the other skills though. I stopped at a local bookstore and paged through Complete Champion. The sorcerer alternate class feature is good. And can provide a decent boost, but it's far from broken. In fact, it's annoying that you have to spend spell slots to power it. The devotion feats that I read are all good. But they're all One per Day. I think they'll get cherry picked by the Circle/Triads, as they vary from one feat to another. Unless I remember incorrectly, the rogue's "Sneak attack undead" alternate class feature is limited to half his sneak attack dice. That limits damage to less than optimal, even if it is better than normal.
bitznarf 07-03-07, 06:46 PM	The devotion feats are powered by turn attempts Hariman, you can use them as many times as you have turn attempts.
Hariman 07-03-07, 07:07 PM	The devotion feats are powered by turn attempts Hariman, you can use them as many times as you have turn attempts. Damn, I forgot that. I did note that some of the really good ones cost multiple turn attempts. Also, I believe they cap at +3 or +4 because of the 15th level cap for LG. I guess the determining factor will be how abusable they are for mod authors. That probably means that Death Devotion is out. Negative levels are already bad enough.
draxynnic 07-04-07, 03:33 AM	Let me make a bold statement here... Just because something new is superior to something existing does not make it too powerful!!! Fascinate stinks. Healing Song is an improvement. Just like how Arcane Trickster stinks and Unseen Seer is an improvement. -Matt It's too much. Consider when you combine it with existing spells. Caldyssa has 17 ranks in Perform, so if she gets access to and uses HS that's +17 to any healing spell cast in her vicinity. She's a 4th-level Seeker of the Song, so she can activate two songs at once, so she doesn't need to give up Inspire Courage to do it. At -15 she'll even be able to swap out songs pretty much freely (I can't remember the last time she ran out of bardic music uses in a module). Her cohort is already built as a healing cleric (Augment Healing; albeit, NOT a cheeseweasel. She's a Joramyite. While she's currently 12, I'm going to assume 13 for these examples (and Caldyssa at 15) since Caldyssa would need to retrain to get Healing Song), has plenty of insignias, and access to Close Wounds. Currently, her insignias do d8+10+6 healing, for an average of 20 points (rounding down decimals of 0.5 and less, up higher). In a level 5 slot, she can empower it, giving an average of 31. Throwing in Healing Song, and the non-empowered average becomes 38 (almost doubled, and this is with Augment Healing. Without it'd be more than doubled). Empowered in a 5th-level slot, and that's an average of 58. Spread among three party members, and that's more than a Heal... Run out of prepared slots, and a Mass Cure Light is healing d8+13+10+18 = 45 points of healing on average. And if there are any undead in the area, they can have a taste too. Mmmn, positive energy goodness. Now, consider Close Wounds. In a level 2 slot, that's currently 1d4+5+4, for an average of 11 - enough to save someone who's just slipped over the boundary, but not enough to survive a big hit. Empowering it isn't worthwhile, since Delay Death would be more effective even with some of the harsher interpretations. With Healing Song, that Close Wounds becomes 29 - a much larger margin for error, and even worth memorising for general healing rather than simply to save someone's life, given that it's an immediate action and all. Empowered, that becomes an average of 44 - a serious contender for Delay Death. It's not often that a character goes to -54 hit points, after all, even at APL14 A similar mechanic applies to out-of-combat healing. No need to pack Lesser Vigors any more now that a Cure Light is healing an average of 4.5+2+5+18= 29 points of damage. Heck, it's even worth throwing spontaneous empowered curing spells if you get a full-round action now that a Cure Moderate cast in that manner can heal 61 points of damage on average, while a Cure Critical, even with Healing Song, only heals 57. And with Divine Ward, you can get that full-round spellcasting off without needing to stand next to your target. Basically, Healing Song superpowers any form of healing that balances advantages like multiple targets or fast cast time with relatively low amounts of healing - because as long as a dice is rolled, Healing Song applies. This sort of super-healing is something that writers are almost going to be forced to take into account - and if they do, I pity the party that doesn't have it. And that's the problem with broken stuff. Great when you have it for yourself, not so good when you don't and the module-writers have assumed you do. As for Unseen Seer - I know someone with a 10th- or 11th- level Arcane Trickster who wants to be level-drained down to 6-ish so they can go in through Unseen Seer instead. One of the things you can use Unseen Seer to do is get into Arcane Trickster earlier and with less of a hit to both casting ability and sneak attack progression - and if you do that, I'm pretty sure you get out of Unseen Seer and into Arcane Trickster before the caster level hit for non-divination spells begins to hit. (Interestingly, that character recently went through a module where he was the only one who didn't die, and one of the characters even died twice...) EDIT: On the devotion feats - two of the ones that I would label as the most broken actually only take one turn attempt to use (Good (and Evil, which I think is just the reverse), Protection)
Madfox11 07-04-07, 03:43 AM	It seems the designers have made healing cheaper all over the game... probably on purpose.
Mattastrophic 07-04-07, 01:00 PM	It's too much. So a 14th-level bard can add +17 to a casting of, for example, Mass Cure Serious. Think about that. A 14th-level cleric can heal for WAY more than 17 points per person. In fact, a 10th-level cleric casting an Augmented Insignia heals 17 points per person on a roll on 1, and a 5th-level cleric casting the same thing can heal 17 points per person on a roll of 6. So a 14th-level bard can duplicate the effects of a 5th-level cleric's third-level spell... If either the bard or another character spends another action to cast a spell for it to piggyback off of. No, that's far from too much. Way better than Fascinate, though. *thumbs up* -Matt
Genghis Cohen 07-04-07, 01:28 PM	For unseen seer - it's true that there is no such thing as a cross-class skill. The other requisites require a level in a class that has the required skills. Which means you can retrain "bad" skill points into "good" ones.The PHB2 says that you can retrain ranks, not points. There's a difference. Crossclass class ranks consume twice as many points. Retraining does not provide for a recovery of lost points when the formerly cross-class ranks are shifted into new class ranks.
copper_wyrmling 07-04-07, 01:34 PM	So a 14th-level bard can add +17 to a casting of, for example, Mass Cure Serious. Think about that. A 14th-level cleric can heal for WAY more than 17 points per person. In fact, a 10th-level cleric casting an Augmented Insignia heals 17 points per person on a roll on 1, and a 5th-level cleric casting the same thing can heal 17 points per person on a roll of 6. So a 14th-level bard can duplicate the effects of a 5th-level cleric's third-level spell... If either the bard or another character spends another action to cast a spell for it to piggyback off of. No, that's far from too much. Way better than Fascinate, though. *thumbs up* -Matt Does Healing Song mean you burn a bardsong attempt as a standard action to add your ranks in Perform to the damage healed by a single spell? If so, then your comparison above is just fine, and I agree it's not broken. The other post implied that the bonus occurs on every healing spell cast by allies while the song lasts, and that the actions required to activate / maintain the song can be reduced as normal for bardsong (harmonize and various class abilities are the ones I know of). If that's the case, then your augmented insignia of healing analogy is a bit off (since that takes a new spell slot every time you cast it, and it's always a standard action unless you're spending L7 slots to quicken it).
copper_wyrmling 07-04-07, 01:36 PM	The PHB2 says that you can retrain ranks, not points. There's a difference. Crossclass class ranks consume twice as many points. Retraining does not provide for a recovery of lost points when the formerly cross-class ranks are shifted into new class ranks. For example, if what you want are rogue skills and you're multiclassing rogue / wizard, you put all your skill points during the wizard levels into wizard skills (so you gain 1 rank / skill point invested), and then retrain those ranks into the rogue skills you want. It's a bit more complicated than that, but that's the idea.
Genghis Cohen 07-04-07, 01:43 PM	For example, if what you want are rogue skills and you're multiclassing rogue / wizard, you put all your skill points during the wizard levels into wizard skills (so you gain 1 rank / skill point invested), and then retrain those ranks into the rogue skills you want. It's a bit more complicated than that, but that's the idea.In that scenario, its a bit broken, but completely legitimate.
Hariman 07-04-07, 11:38 PM	In that scenario, its a bit broken, but completely legitimate. The only drawback is that you expend TUs and Spend Money. The TUs replenish each year, but your money for your character does not. So if you get the most out of this and retrain skill ranks at every level, you'll end up spending 12,000gp on retraining to "gain" 56 skill points. I'd rather buy a spare weapon, or Horizon Goggles and a +2 stat booster. Or any other item which increases my character's likelihood of survival. On a different note: It's been posted in a Dispel Confusion that there is no rule against a character committing suicide. (Although the example given was for reincarnating into a more desirable race) So that high level guy who wants to get to level 6 from higher levels could easily do it with a bunch of gold and a DM who wouldn't say "Uh, no, not at my table." Personally, I think the guy should keep his current character and start a new character for unseen seer, as getting a Trickster up to level ten takes some hard work and more than a small amount of skill!
draxynnic 07-05-07, 07:29 AM	Does Healing Song mean you burn a bardsong attempt as a standard action to add your ranks in Perform to the damage healed by a single spell? If so, then your comparison above is just fine, and I agree it's not broken. The other post implied that the bonus occurs on every healing spell cast by allies while the song lasts, and that the actions required to activate / maintain the song can be reduced as normal for bardsong (harmonize and various class abilities are the ones I know of). If that's the case, then your augmented insignia of healing analogy is a bit off (since that takes a new spell slot every time you cast it, and it's always a standard action unless you're spending L7 slots to quicken it). It's the latter. It works like Inspire Courage. Complete with the 5-round lingering period, so even a regular bard without the ability to sing multiple songs at once can just fire it up for a round when the party has taken some damage and then let the benefits last for the rest of the combat.
Mommy was an Orc 07-05-07, 09:40 AM	The only drawback is that you expend TUs and Spend Money. The TUs replenish each year, but your money for your character does not. So if you get the most out of this and retrain skill ranks at every level, you'll end up spending 12,000gp on retraining to "gain" 56 skill points. I'd rather buy a spare weapon, or Horizon Goggles and a +2 stat booster. Or any other item which increases my character's likelihood of survival. Would you buy an item that gives a +14 Competence bonus to 4 skills for 12K? I certainly would. A lot of people would probably pony up 12K for a +14 Competence bonus to Spot only...This is particularly true for most 4-6 skill point skill monkey PrCs, which are often missing a few vital skills. I think most people would agree that the most vital Rogue, non-Swashbuckler skills in LG are: Search Disable Device Spot UMD A Human Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 12 with a 14 Int gains 7 skill points per level - if he doesn't use retraining, Search and Disable Device leave him with 3 skill points. He can't advance the other two without ignoring other skills. He needs to have all 3 Rogue levels in by 6th or he's delaying ITWF or Staggering Strike. But look at what retraining provides at 7th+: 8th/12th retrain Search 9th/13th retrain Spot 10th/14th retrain Disable Device 7th/11th/15th retrain UMD That leaves 3 skill points for Bluff, Diplomacy, Tumble, Balance, or whatever other Swashbuckler skills you want to focus on. That will add to your survival.
Mattastrophic 07-05-07, 10:26 AM	It's the latter. It works like Inspire Courage. Complete with the 5-round lingering period, so even a regular bard without the ability to sing multiple songs at once can just fire it up for a round when the party has taken some damage and then let the benefits last for the rest of the combat. A 14th-level cleric can crank out WAY more than 17 hp per person per round for many rounds, and the cleric can do it by himself, without needing someone else to do the casting for him. In conclusion, Healing Song is an excellent way for a bard to be useful by helping the cleric (or himself) use fewer spells on healing the party up to full. Yes, the theoretical numbers are huge-mongous. But what cleric needs to heal 1000hp? Also, it takes two actions to get the extra healing going, thus the bard can't effectively heal on his own mid-combat, unless he takes Quicken Spell-like Ability. Also, someone actually has to cast healing spells for the song to matter, so the bard is limited by the healer's spell slots. It's a perfect ability for improving upon a class that needs improvement. -Matt
Hariman 07-05-07, 12:14 PM	A 14th-level cleric can crank out WAY more than 17 hp per person per round for many rounds, and the cleric can do it by himself, without needing someone else to do the casting for him. In conclusion, Healing Song is an excellent way for a bard to be useful by helping the cleric (or himself) use fewer spells on healing the party up to full. Yes, the theoretical numbers are huge-mongous. But what cleric needs to heal 1000hp? Also, it takes two actions to get the extra healing going, thus the bard can't effectively heal on his own mid-combat, unless he takes Quicken Spell-like Ability. Also, someone actually has to cast healing spells for the song to matter, so the bard is limited by the healer's spell slots. It's a perfect ability for improving upon a class that needs improvement. -Matt Harmonize lets a bard activate his various bardsong abilities as a move action. Granted, he doesn't get it immediately, as it's a second level spell. But even if he only uses it with his own spells, his spells at ninth level will go from 1d8+5 cure lights to 1d8+17. At least, assuming max ranks in the relevant perform skill. It's a really great boost for a healing bard, and an even better boost for a cleric. Even at low levels, an extra four or five HP can mean the difference between dead and alive. Augment Healing proves that.
solbergb 07-05-07, 12:57 PM	or more relevantly, 1d8+10 insignias of healing become 1d8+27 in addition to boosting any healing anybody else wants to do. It also makes wands of clw a lot more relevant at higher levels if it works on them too.
control freak 07-05-07, 01:52 PM	edit double post
Hariman 07-05-07, 01:55 PM	or more relevantly, 1d8+10 insignias of healing become 1d8+27 in addition to boosting any healing anybody else wants to do. It also makes wands of clw a lot more relevant at higher levels if it works on them too. Also, wouldn't Healing Song affect the Vigor line of spells? That would mean that Lesser Vigor (With Augment Healing and Healing Song) would heal 6 HP at level 1, BEFORE any actual fast healing from the spell takes effect. That's no small amount of healing. And I think you can get an extra +3 healing via Skill Focus: Perform!!! If this is allowed, my next character will be a bard. With Augment Healing and Healing Song.
control freak 07-05-07, 01:58 PM	personaly i think all devotion feats will be closed, as some are compleatly broken (im looking at you travel and death)
Mattastrophic 07-05-07, 03:06 PM	Also, wouldn't Healing Song affect the Vigor line of spells? That's no small amount of healing. And I think you can get an extra +3 healing via Skill Focus: Perform!!! No on both. The healing is based on actual ranks of Perform, and it only affects actual healing rolls. That would've been pretty badass if it were based on Perform modifier, though. "You're casting Cure Light? Okay, I'm adding 42 to your roll..." -Matt
CdrcJsn 07-05-07, 03:30 PM	or more relevantly, 1d8+10 insignias of healing become 1d8+27 in addition to boosting any healing anybody else wants to do. It also makes wands of clw a lot more relevant at higher levels if it works on them too. Your insignia example would require a level 14 bard. If that 14th level bard is using an action during combat to improve the party's healing ability, the effect better be good. Out of combat, healing is generally not that important. Even now, lesser vigor and a few pearls is usually all it takes. Most parties also run with only 1 healer in the party, so the bardic healing song is nice, but not gonna significantly change the dynamics of healing in combat. You might be able to make a case for a party of all clerics, but the same could be said of +4/+5 Inspire Courage in a party of all archers...
Mattastrophic 07-05-07, 03:35 PM	Your insignia example would require a level 14 bard. If that 14th level bard is using an action during combat to improve the party's healing ability, the effect better be good. Out of combat, healing is generally not that important. Even now, lesser vigor and a few pearls is usually all it takes. Most parties also run with only 1 healer in the party, so the bardic healing song is nice, but not gonna significantly change the dynamics of healing in combat. You might be able to make a case for a party of all clerics, but the same could be said of +4/+5 Inspire Courage in a party of all archers... 100% in agreement with you. Another point to consider is that if most parties run with one healer, then that healer is usually built to be able to heal six people just fine, and thus the assistance might be wasted. -Matt
Timlagor 07-05-07, 04:54 PM	Remember it's only a move action by level 14 and they may well have it active before combat starts. Still.. this is an powerful ability that is losing it's lustre somewhat at level 14 -it's better at lower levels.
solbergb 07-05-07, 05:53 PM	Your insignia example would require a level 14 bard. If that 14th level bard is using an action during combat to improve the party's healing ability, the effect better be good. Well yeah. but the example given was 17 ranks in perform, so I stuck with that. For a 9th level bard doing the same thing (my bard cohort would like the option, certainly) she'd double her healing output with the spell, plus boosting any other healer (1d8+9=13.5 vs 1d8+21=25.5) I'm not saying it is overpowered, but it's a darn sight better than fascinate. I don't know that I'd spend a feat on it but I'd happily dump fascinate. (fascinate has all kinds of annoying mechanics that slow play even when it works properly) My warchanter would also love it, (assuming I understand prereqs right) as it's based on ranks of perform, not on levels of bardic music advancement. (his fascinate lasts only 2 rounds...)
Hariman 07-05-07, 07:56 PM	No on both. The healing is based on actual ranks of Perform, and it only affects actual healing rolls. That would've been pretty badass if it were based on Perform modifier, though. "You're casting Cure Light? Okay, I'm adding 42 to your roll..." -Matt You got me there. Skill focus adds a +3 bonus, not extra ranks.
draxynnic 07-05-07, 11:40 PM	A 14th-level cleric can crank out WAY more than 17 hp per person per round for many rounds, and the cleric can do it by himself, without needing someone else to do the casting for him. In conclusion, Healing Song is an excellent way for a bard to be useful by helping the cleric (or himself) use fewer spells on healing the party up to full. Yes, the theoretical numbers are huge-mongous. But what cleric needs to heal 1000hp? Also, it takes two actions to get the extra healing going, thus the bard can't effectively heal on his own mid-combat, unless he takes Quicken Spell-like Ability. Also, someone actually has to cast healing spells for the song to matter, so the bard is limited by the healer's spell slots. It's a perfect ability for improving upon a class that needs improvement. -Matt Caldyssa can essentially do it as a free action. She's a fourth-level Seeker of the Song - she can activate (and maintain) two bardic music effects at once. Hence, she can activate Healing Song at the same time she activates Inspire Courage (usually her first or second action in any combat). Maybe I'm seeing this with coloured glasses because I happen to have stumbled on close to the perfect class, cohort, and spell access combination to truly abuse it, but it's the comboes that determine how broken something is. Divine Metamagic isn't broken if you use it for Still or Silent, after all. To clear things up, Healing Song only kicks in when one or more dice are actually rolled. Otherwise I'd have used the example of the 19-point Cure Minor Wounds... :P
CdrcJsn 07-05-07, 11:46 PM	Maybe I'm seeing this with coloured glasses because I happen to have stumbled on close to the perfect class, cohort, and spell access combination to truly abuse it, but it's the comboes that determine how broken something is. Divine Metamagic isn't broken if you use it for Still or Silent, after all. If your example of broken is that the healing song doubles the effects of you and your cohort's insignia of healing spells, then I question your definition of broken. It's true right now that healing during combat is usually a subpar action compared to simply shutting down the bad guys. The game developers are obviously trying to remedy this by making healing magic more effective and plentiful in the recent sourcebooks.
LachlarlanIII 07-12-07, 09:58 AM	Touch of Healing (I think that's what it's called) may be NONC'd. Also, the feat that allows you to add a boost to someone when you cast a Conjuration (Healing) spell on them may be NONC'd as well.
ShinAkuma2 07-12-07, 01:17 PM	I'm just hoping for Fist of the Forest... I was hoping for something cool for Paladins and Monks, but no, I get a book filled with Cleric stuff. Fist of the Forest would be absolutely perfect, flavourwise and mechanicswise, for a character I just started... :bigeyes: Please please?
Banor 07-12-07, 04:20 PM	Touch of Healing (I think that's what it's called) may be NONC'd. Also, the feat that allows you to add a boost to someone when you cast a Conjuration (Healing) spell on them may be NONC'd as well. While it is a very good feat i hope it wont be. Healers should get some candies some time too :)
Hariman 07-12-07, 06:44 PM	Touch of Healing (I think that's what it's called) may be NONC'd. Also, the feat that allows you to add a boost to someone when you cast a Conjuration (Healing) spell on them may be NONC'd as well. I can't recall Touch of Healing. I don't have a copy of the book in front of me. The second feat was Imbued Healing, unless I'm mistaken. As I recall, those benefits were all smaller benefits. Things like a + to saves VS poison and other such bonuses. Also, unless I'm mistaken, you could only apply those bonuses to ONE of the people you are healing if you heal multiple party members. But if you healed the same party member multiple times you could give him a different bonus each time and "Stack" all three or four bonuses that you could give. Not to mention that most clerics will only be able to use a few of them, as they are restricted by domain access. And I'm pretty sure the duration isn't all that long.
Banor 07-13-07, 07:32 AM	I can't recall Touch of Healing. I don't have a copy of the book in front of me. The second feat was Imbued Healing, unless I'm mistaken. As I recall, those benefits were all smaller benefits. Things like a + to saves VS poison and other such bonuses. Also, unless I'm mistaken, you could only apply those bonuses to ONE of the people you are healing if you heal multiple party members. But if you healed the same party member multiple times you could give him a different bonus each time and "Stack" all three or four bonuses that you could give. Not to mention that most clerics will only be able to use a few of them, as they are restricted by domain access. And I'm pretty sure the duration isn't all that long. You can give the buff to anyone, it just has to be the same If your Conjuration(Healing) affect multiple creature, you can only choose one carrier effect per casting. All targets are subject to the same effect. Touch of Healing is a reserve feat that allows you to heal for 3xhighest level Conjuration(healing) spell (EDIT : Up to half the max HP)
solbergb 07-13-07, 09:56 AM	touch of healing caps at half the hitpoints of the target. It's actually not really worth it, since it doesn't do enough for incombat healing and out of combat healing typically doesn't drain important resources (high tier spell slots) anyway. Especially since the reserve feat doesn't work on the half of the hitpoint pool that is typically drained (the top half) on most characters at the end of the fight.
magebeast 07-13-07, 11:39 AM	I'm just hoping for Fist of the Forest... I was hoping for something cool for Paladins and Monks, but no, I get a book filled with Cleric stuff. Fist of the Forest would be absolutely perfect, flavourwise and mechanicswise, for a character I just started... :bigeyes: Please please? Fist of the Forest + Deepwarden...you can rage and gain AC. *shudder*