This Build Probably stinks, but... [Archive] - Wizards Community

This Build Probably stinks, but... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
delewobmesid
03-29-06, 02:27 PM ...I'm considering it anyway; the concept is a Dwarven tank with great AC and saves. my thought is to get him into as many good BAB classes/prestidge classes as I can without spreading things too thin...

Dwarf Barbarian 1: 16,12,16,12,12,6; power attack
Fighter, Weapon Focus
Ranger, Knw Nature at least 2, Heal 2, True Beliver (following Gendar)
Fighter, Heavy armor optimization?
Barbarian
Pious Templar, Cleave?
Animal Lord (Wolf)
Pious Templar
Pious Templar (Greater Resilence?)
Animal Load
Pious Templar (greater heavy armor optimization?)

I know I'm skipping Deep Warden...it requires alot of ranks plus endurance; where should I try to work that in? drop heavy armor optimization? I know I can't rage in heavy armor, until I score Mithral...but does heavy armor optimization work with mithral full plate since it only counts as medium armor?

Just trying to figure this out before I start another character and stop playing it after one module.
ShinAkuma2
03-29-06, 05:09 PM Um, I don't have much to say...I just wanted to know....Why is it that you can't rage while in Heavy Armor?
delewobmesid
03-29-06, 05:36 PM The Rage & Fast Movement Barbarian class abilities don't work while in Heavy armor (only works in Medium or less)
RedKnightofKet
03-29-06, 06:31 PM The Rage & Fast Movement Barbarian class abilities don't work while in Heavy armor (only works in Medium or less)

And where exactly does it state this? Fast Movement explicitly states this, but Rage does not, nor could I find anything in the errata. A Barbarian is non-proficient in Heavy Armor, but the fighter level takes care of that.
delewobmesid
03-29-06, 06:39 PM your right; I never realized that...raging in full plate ;] happy thoughts...
Jay_Ibero_911
03-29-06, 09:19 PM You'll probably want to take extra rage at 6th instead of cleave. I think the ability to rage 2 more times per day is more valuable than the ocassional extra attack. The heavy armor optimization is an interesting choice. Deepwarden won't help if you are wearing full plate anyway, unless it's mithral. But if you really wanted to go deepwarded, you could swap out the 2 animal lord levels for ranger to get endurance for free.
Alma
03-30-06, 11:30 PM extend rage is better as you can rage only once per encounter
GorTeX
03-30-06, 11:58 PM apparently, about 50% of people consider Mithral Full Plate to be medium armor in all respects, while the other 50% of people consider Mithral Full Plate to only be Medium armor with respect to 'Movement and other limitations', but is otherwise Heavy armor.

What this means is if you do get mithral armor, don't take HAO (or GHAO) because about 1/2 of your DM's will not let you use the feat....
Crazy Boro
03-31-06, 01:13 AM extend rage is better as you can rage only once per encounter
I can't agree with this choice. He has a con of 16 before level bumps and/or an amulet, so he'll already be raging for 8 rounds. That's enough for most encounters in Living Greyhawk. With the extra rage, he can have 3 rages a day for those other encounters during the day if needed. That way he can still rage if he needs to. I know that a large amount of mods I've played have had more than 1 combat a day.
TWG_Prometheus
03-31-06, 08:25 AM Weapon Focus at level 1 rather than Power Attack. You're not going to Power Attack for much additional damage in the early levels anyway, but you DO need to hit. (I broke this rule really, really badly on a character recently, but my feats were stacked out that way. You have flexibility here)
Nightmare Beast
03-31-06, 02:59 PM You didn't state what weapon you are using, but I suggest the Exotic Weapon Prestige Class (can't remember the correct name). As an dwarf you get dwarven waraxe as a free exotic weapon. Take a look at it, it's pretty good.
JohnduBois
03-31-06, 03:11 PM apparently, about 50% of people consider Mithral Full Plate to be medium armor in all respects, while the other 50% of people consider Mithral Full Plate to only be Medium armor with respect to 'Movement and other limitations', but is otherwise Heavy armor.

What this means is if you do get mithral armor, don't take HAO (or GHAO) because about 1/2 of your DM's will not let you use the feat....

From the D&D FAQ:
"...mithral armor is treated as one category lighter for all purposes, including proficiency. This isn't exactly what the Dungeon Master's Guide says, but it's a reasonable interpretation of the intent of the rule (and it's supported by a number of precedents, including the descriptions of various specific mithral armors..."

I've seen a lot of interesting interpretations of how mithral armor works. I even had a DM (pretty hardcore gamer, too - a guy who drove at least 6 hours to the con) try to tell me that a barbarian didn't get fast movement in mithral full plate, despite that ability being the example the DMG uses. However, the entry about proficiency in the FAQ seems to indicate to me that HAO would not work with mithral full plate, but would work with anything that works on medium armor.

That said, I'm glad my bard has a fighter level, in case someone decides to try to rules lawyer me into being nonproficient with my mithral breastplate. :)
delewobmesid
03-31-06, 03:20 PM The 3.5 FAQ outlines that mithral medium armor counts as light for all intents and purposes.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a
delewobmesid
03-31-06, 03:27 PM You didn't state what weapon you are using, but I suggest the Exotic Weapon Prestige Class (can't remember the correct name). As an dwarf you get dwarven waraxe as a free exotic weapon. Take a look at it, it's pretty good.

I'm going with a Dwarven War Axe; I've looked at the tricks for Exotic Weapon Master, and there isn't alot if your not going for a two handed or double weapon from what I can see. In keeping with my original intent of an AC/save tank, I'm going to change my first level feat to WF Dwarven Waraxe (I'll going to be following the on one LG diety who has this as his favored weapon, a Dwarven Giant hating fatalism diety, can't remember the name). I think I'm still going to go for Pious Templar & Animal Lord Wolf after picking up a level or two in fighter ranger and barbarian.

Thanks for the feedback.
GorTeX
04-01-06, 12:20 AM The 3.5 FAQ outlines that mithral medium armor counts as light for all intents and purposes.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a

What everyone misses in that FAQ entry is this:
"This isn't exactly what the Dungeon Master's Guide says, but it's a reasonable interpretation..."

The FAQ states that the interpetation presented is NOT what the DMG says..yet everyone seems to gloss over that without a blink.
Gelth
04-06-06, 04:28 PM It doesn't matter if that's what the DMG says explicitly, because the FAQ does state it explicitly, in the previous sentence no less.
If it didn't work that way I'd celebrate the cheese, and by Dwarven Fighter with both optimization feats would shell out for Mithral Fullplate in a heartbeat. It does work that way, however, witness that Elven Chain (Chainmail that's made of Mithral, nonmagical) in the DMG is listed as light armour, even though chainmail is normally medium.
There's enough wiggle-room that judges can rule the other way, maybe, but not enough for me to give it serious consideration.

--Penn, Ket Triad
Reylance
04-06-06, 05:02 PM You can't rage and be a Pious Templar of Gendwar Argrim, as your alignment must be LG or LN. LG rules require divine spellcasting classes to be within one alignment of the deity's alignment, following the rule for clerics (you can only be Neutral if the god is Neutral).

Pious Templar isn't a bad choice, you just need to go in a different direction. A follower could become a Dwarven Defender. (Ex-Bbn1/Ftr4/EWM1/PTm1/DDf8)

1. Bbn1: Rage, Toughness
2. Ftr1: Weapon Focus (Dwarven Waraxe)
3. Ftr2: Dodge, Endurance
4. Ftr3:
5. Ftr4: Weapon Specialization (Dwarven Waraxe)
6. EWM1: Trick (double Str bonus to damage), True Believer
7. PTm1: (Change from N to LN) Mettle
8. DDf1: Stance 1/day
9. DDf2: Uncanny Dodge, Improved Critical (Dwarven Waraxe)
10.DDf3: Stance 2/day
11.DDf4: Trap Sense +1
12.DDf5: Stance 3/day, [Feat]
13.DDf6: DR 3/-, Improved Uncanny Dodge
14.DDf7: Stance 4/Day
15.Ddf8: Mobile Defense, Trap Sense +2, [Feat]
Gelth
04-07-06, 08:49 AM Dwarven Defenders must be lawful, which also means no raging.
My dwarven tank is straight fighter (9th level so far), and will be until at least 12th level, when I might take a level of something else, depending what looks promising. The feat access is unparallelled, and I don't have to waste skills and feats on stuff I don't really want to qualify for PrCs.
I know that many people believe that for a martial type a single class is seen as suboptimal, and indeed my saves aren't great compared to many, but I've made it this far without ever dying, and I'm always useful in a fight.

--Penn, Ket Triad
delewobmesid
04-17-06, 11:26 AM since the only reason I was including a level of fighter was to get heavy armor proficency (and since I want to go for prestidge classes after 5th) I'm just going to make my 1st lvl feat heavy armor prof and keep this character to Barbarian 2/Ranger 3 so I can apply for the dwarven prestidge classes that require endurance and keep myself in decent skills. Thanks again for your feedback.
paigeoliver
04-17-06, 03:51 PM 12 levels of fighter is good. I can't find a single decent reason to go past 12 though. 12th qualifies you for greater weapon specialization.

After Fighter 12 a drop into any prestige class, or simply Barbarian will probably work out better than taking fighter for 13, 14 and 15,.
GorTeX
04-17-06, 05:41 PM It doesn't matter if that's what the DMG says explicitly, because the FAQ does state it explicitly, in the previous sentence no less.
If it didn't work that way I'd celebrate the cheese, and by Dwarven Fighter with both optimization feats would shell out for Mithral Fullplate in a heartbeat. It does work that way, however, witness that Elven Chain (Chainmail that's made of Mithral, nonmagical) in the DMG is listed as light armour, even though chainmail is normally medium.
There's enough wiggle-room that judges can rule the other way, maybe, but not enough for me to give it serious consideration.

--Penn, Ket Triad

opposed to the cheese of a Dwarven Barbarian wearing Mithral Full plate without having Heavy Armor Prof. at all. (even worse when said barbarian takes a couple of deepwarden levels)

Elven chain breaks what the rules for making mitrhal armor in other ways (isn't it the one that is 10lbs instead of 12.5?). The Mithral Full plate in the DMG is actuall Mithral Full plate of speed...so it could easily have other properties (such as being medium armor) that 'normal' armors made of mithral do not.

Mithral armor is good however it is ruled. I'm coming to accept that in LG, about 1/2 of the DM's will probably rule one way, and the other 50% another on this issue. Probalby will just avoid it in LG by buying Mithral Breastplate and getting to use my ranger TWF abilites :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
delewobmesid 03-29-06, 02:27 PM	...I'm considering it anyway; the concept is a Dwarven tank with great AC and saves. my thought is to get him into as many good BAB classes/prestidge classes as I can without spreading things too thin... Dwarf Barbarian 1: 16,12,16,12,12,6; power attack Fighter, Weapon Focus Ranger, Knw Nature at least 2, Heal 2, True Beliver (following Gendar) Fighter, Heavy armor optimization? Barbarian Pious Templar, Cleave? Animal Lord (Wolf) Pious Templar Pious Templar (Greater Resilence?) Animal Load Pious Templar (greater heavy armor optimization?) I know I'm skipping Deep Warden...it requires alot of ranks plus endurance; where should I try to work that in? drop heavy armor optimization? I know I can't rage in heavy armor, until I score Mithral...but does heavy armor optimization work with mithral full plate since it only counts as medium armor? Just trying to figure this out before I start another character and stop playing it after one module.
ShinAkuma2 03-29-06, 05:09 PM	Um, I don't have much to say...I just wanted to know....Why is it that you can't rage while in Heavy Armor?
delewobmesid 03-29-06, 05:36 PM	The Rage & Fast Movement Barbarian class abilities don't work while in Heavy armor (only works in Medium or less)
RedKnightofKet 03-29-06, 06:31 PM	The Rage & Fast Movement Barbarian class abilities don't work while in Heavy armor (only works in Medium or less) And where exactly does it state this? Fast Movement explicitly states this, but Rage does not, nor could I find anything in the errata. A Barbarian is non-proficient in Heavy Armor, but the fighter level takes care of that.
delewobmesid 03-29-06, 06:39 PM	your right; I never realized that...raging in full plate ;] happy thoughts...
Jay_Ibero_911 03-29-06, 09:19 PM	You'll probably want to take extra rage at 6th instead of cleave. I think the ability to rage 2 more times per day is more valuable than the ocassional extra attack. The heavy armor optimization is an interesting choice. Deepwarden won't help if you are wearing full plate anyway, unless it's mithral. But if you really wanted to go deepwarded, you could swap out the 2 animal lord levels for ranger to get endurance for free.
Alma 03-30-06, 11:30 PM	extend rage is better as you can rage only once per encounter
GorTeX 03-30-06, 11:58 PM	apparently, about 50% of people consider Mithral Full Plate to be medium armor in all respects, while the other 50% of people consider Mithral Full Plate to only be Medium armor with respect to 'Movement and other limitations', but is otherwise Heavy armor. What this means is if you do get mithral armor, don't take HAO (or GHAO) because about 1/2 of your DM's will not let you use the feat....
Crazy Boro 03-31-06, 01:13 AM	extend rage is better as you can rage only once per encounter I can't agree with this choice. He has a con of 16 before level bumps and/or an amulet, so he'll already be raging for 8 rounds. That's enough for most encounters in Living Greyhawk. With the extra rage, he can have 3 rages a day for those other encounters during the day if needed. That way he can still rage if he needs to. I know that a large amount of mods I've played have had more than 1 combat a day.
TWG_Prometheus 03-31-06, 08:25 AM	Weapon Focus at level 1 rather than Power Attack. You're not going to Power Attack for much additional damage in the early levels anyway, but you DO need to hit. (I broke this rule really, really badly on a character recently, but my feats were stacked out that way. You have flexibility here)
Nightmare Beast 03-31-06, 02:59 PM	You didn't state what weapon you are using, but I suggest the Exotic Weapon Prestige Class (can't remember the correct name). As an dwarf you get dwarven waraxe as a free exotic weapon. Take a look at it, it's pretty good.
JohnduBois 03-31-06, 03:11 PM	apparently, about 50% of people consider Mithral Full Plate to be medium armor in all respects, while the other 50% of people consider Mithral Full Plate to only be Medium armor with respect to 'Movement and other limitations', but is otherwise Heavy armor. What this means is if you do get mithral armor, don't take HAO (or GHAO) because about 1/2 of your DM's will not let you use the feat.... From the D&D FAQ: "...mithral armor is treated as one category lighter for all purposes, including proficiency. This isn't exactly what the Dungeon Master's Guide says, but it's a reasonable interpretation of the intent of the rule (and it's supported by a number of precedents, including the descriptions of various specific mithral armors..." I've seen a lot of interesting interpretations of how mithral armor works. I even had a DM (pretty hardcore gamer, too - a guy who drove at least 6 hours to the con) try to tell me that a barbarian didn't get fast movement in mithral full plate, despite that ability being the example the DMG uses. However, the entry about proficiency in the FAQ seems to indicate to me that HAO would not work with mithral full plate, but would work with anything that works on medium armor. That said, I'm glad my bard has a fighter level, in case someone decides to try to rules lawyer me into being nonproficient with my mithral breastplate. :)
delewobmesid 03-31-06, 03:20 PM	The 3.5 FAQ outlines that mithral medium armor counts as light for all intents and purposes. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a
delewobmesid 03-31-06, 03:27 PM	You didn't state what weapon you are using, but I suggest the Exotic Weapon Prestige Class (can't remember the correct name). As an dwarf you get dwarven waraxe as a free exotic weapon. Take a look at it, it's pretty good. I'm going with a Dwarven War Axe; I've looked at the tricks for Exotic Weapon Master, and there isn't alot if your not going for a two handed or double weapon from what I can see. In keeping with my original intent of an AC/save tank, I'm going to change my first level feat to WF Dwarven Waraxe (I'll going to be following the on one LG diety who has this as his favored weapon, a Dwarven Giant hating fatalism diety, can't remember the name). I think I'm still going to go for Pious Templar & Animal Lord Wolf after picking up a level or two in fighter ranger and barbarian. Thanks for the feedback.
GorTeX 04-01-06, 12:20 AM	The 3.5 FAQ outlines that mithral medium armor counts as light for all intents and purposes. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a What everyone misses in that FAQ entry is this: "This isn't exactly what the Dungeon Master's Guide says, but it's a reasonable interpretation..." The FAQ states that the interpetation presented is NOT what the DMG says..yet everyone seems to gloss over that without a blink.
Gelth 04-06-06, 04:28 PM	It doesn't matter if that's what the DMG says explicitly, because the FAQ does state it explicitly, in the previous sentence no less. If it didn't work that way I'd celebrate the cheese, and by Dwarven Fighter with both optimization feats would shell out for Mithral Fullplate in a heartbeat. It does work that way, however, witness that Elven Chain (Chainmail that's made of Mithral, nonmagical) in the DMG is listed as light armour, even though chainmail is normally medium. There's enough wiggle-room that judges can rule the other way, maybe, but not enough for me to give it serious consideration. --Penn, Ket Triad
Reylance 04-06-06, 05:02 PM	You can't rage and be a Pious Templar of Gendwar Argrim, as your alignment must be LG or LN. LG rules require divine spellcasting classes to be within one alignment of the deity's alignment, following the rule for clerics (you can only be Neutral if the god is Neutral). Pious Templar isn't a bad choice, you just need to go in a different direction. A follower could become a Dwarven Defender. (Ex-Bbn1/Ftr4/EWM1/PTm1/DDf8) 1. Bbn1: Rage, Toughness 2. Ftr1: Weapon Focus (Dwarven Waraxe) 3. Ftr2: Dodge, Endurance 4. Ftr3: 5. Ftr4: Weapon Specialization (Dwarven Waraxe) 6. EWM1: Trick (double Str bonus to damage), True Believer 7. PTm1: (Change from N to LN) Mettle 8. DDf1: Stance 1/day 9. DDf2: Uncanny Dodge, Improved Critical (Dwarven Waraxe) 10.DDf3: Stance 2/day 11.DDf4: Trap Sense +1 12.DDf5: Stance 3/day, [Feat] 13.DDf6: DR 3/-, Improved Uncanny Dodge 14.DDf7: Stance 4/Day 15.Ddf8: Mobile Defense, Trap Sense +2, [Feat]
Gelth 04-07-06, 08:49 AM	Dwarven Defenders must be lawful, which also means no raging. My dwarven tank is straight fighter (9th level so far), and will be until at least 12th level, when I might take a level of something else, depending what looks promising. The feat access is unparallelled, and I don't have to waste skills and feats on stuff I don't really want to qualify for PrCs. I know that many people believe that for a martial type a single class is seen as suboptimal, and indeed my saves aren't great compared to many, but I've made it this far without ever dying, and I'm always useful in a fight. --Penn, Ket Triad
delewobmesid 04-17-06, 11:26 AM	since the only reason I was including a level of fighter was to get heavy armor proficency (and since I want to go for prestidge classes after 5th) I'm just going to make my 1st lvl feat heavy armor prof and keep this character to Barbarian 2/Ranger 3 so I can apply for the dwarven prestidge classes that require endurance and keep myself in decent skills. Thanks again for your feedback.
paigeoliver 04-17-06, 03:51 PM	12 levels of fighter is good. I can't find a single decent reason to go past 12 though. 12th qualifies you for greater weapon specialization. After Fighter 12 a drop into any prestige class, or simply Barbarian will probably work out better than taking fighter for 13, 14 and 15,.
GorTeX 04-17-06, 05:41 PM	It doesn't matter if that's what the DMG says explicitly, because the FAQ does state it explicitly, in the previous sentence no less. If it didn't work that way I'd celebrate the cheese, and by Dwarven Fighter with both optimization feats would shell out for Mithral Fullplate in a heartbeat. It does work that way, however, witness that Elven Chain (Chainmail that's made of Mithral, nonmagical) in the DMG is listed as light armour, even though chainmail is normally medium. There's enough wiggle-room that judges can rule the other way, maybe, but not enough for me to give it serious consideration. --Penn, Ket Triad opposed to the cheese of a Dwarven Barbarian wearing Mithral Full plate without having Heavy Armor Prof. at all. (even worse when said barbarian takes a couple of deepwarden levels) Elven chain breaks what the rules for making mitrhal armor in other ways (isn't it the one that is 10lbs instead of 12.5?). The Mithral Full plate in the DMG is actuall Mithral Full plate of speed...so it could easily have other properties (such as being medium armor) that 'normal' armors made of mithral do not. Mithral armor is good however it is ruled. I'm coming to accept that in LG, about 1/2 of the DM's will probably rule one way, and the other 50% another on this issue. Probalby will just avoid it in LG by buying Mithral Breastplate and getting to use my ranger TWF abilites :)