To go Sublime Chord or Marshal? [Archive] - Wizards Community

To go Sublime Chord or Marshal? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Artexerxees
02-20-05, 07:05 PM Right now before conversion hits I am a 13th level strait Bard. After conversion hits. I am going 10 levels of Bard, three levels of Sublime Chord. My next level is a dilemma. I don't know if I should go Marshal next or Sublime Chord. If I go with Marshal, the aura I pick up enhances initiative checks and Dexterity checks. If I go Sublime Chord, I pick up Chain Lightning and Prismatic Ray and I get an extra spell to cast on each of those listed spells.

Any opinions right now I'll take. I have one friend who is pushing for Marshal but I'm thinking Sublime Chord. I have a plus twenty eight to my perform check so more than likely I will make plus four to my level enhancement to cast spells. My charisma is a twenty one with a plus four cloak of charisma. What do you all think? :P
Sieylianna
02-21-05, 11:12 AM Right now before conversion hits I am a 13th level strait Bard. After conversion hits. I am going 10 levels of Bard, three levels of Sublime Chord. My next level is a dilemma. I don't know if I should go Marshal next or Sublime Chord. If I go with Marshal, the aura I pick up enhances initiative checks and Dexterity checks. If I go Sublime Chord, I pick up Chain Lightning and Prismatic Ray and I get an extra spell to cast on each of those listed spells.

Any opinions right now I'll take. I have one friend who is pushing for Marshal but I'm thinking Sublime Chord. I have a plus twenty eight to my perform check so more than likely I will make plus four to my level enhancement to cast spells. My charisma is a twenty one with a plus four cloak of charisma. What do you all think? :P

The first question is whether Bard or Marshal are preferred classes for the PC? You didn't give your race. If they aren't, you're looking at XP penalties.

The next question is where do you want to be when you retire at 16th level? You only have three levels to go, so you need to decide how many more levels of sublime chord you want to gain.

As stated in the minatures handbook (I don't know if there is errata), you could have the aura in effect all the time and it doesn't take concentration or otherwise interfere with your other actions. I suspect some DMs will question the ability due to a lack of familiarity. The fact that a 1st level marshal can provide a continuous +7 bonus to intitative (or reflex saves) sounds too good.

Ed
Simpi
02-21-05, 01:09 PM The fact that a 1st level marshal can provide a continuous +7 bonus to intitative (or reflex saves) sounds too good.

Ed

It's is indeed quite cheesy. But then again, authors can turn the tables when they write modules and have a group of relatively low CR monsters supported by Marshall and Bard (with the extra +1 to hit/damage rolls spell from CV) to cut through PCs like hot knife through butter.

Add in the fact that 4th level marshall with high charisma can first make sure monsters win the initiative (by having the initiative aura in effect by default), then grant them extra move action and flank PCs and then switch the aura to the one that grants bonus on flanking damage roll for some serious pain, combined with bard and major aura bonuses.

More importantly for the original poster: Read page 2, 2nd paragraph of conversion document. If you did not have levels of Marshall before the conversion, you may not take them (same goes to other new base classes).

S.H, Ahlissa (Naerie) webslave
Artexerxees
02-21-05, 02:44 PM My race is Half-Elf. I don't know where I want to be at sixteenth level. Yes, I know I can't switch levels for Marshal now. It is for the next two levels. I have a plus five initiative modifier to my charisma. If I go Marshal the next level, I would add the aura that gives my charisma modifier to my initiative rolls and Dexterity checks and dex-skills.. Then on the next level of Marshal, I would add the major aura that adds my charisma modifier to damage rolls.

I kind of works like this. I shout out, "Watch out, there out to get us!" Activating my initiative-dex aura and everyone adds plus five to their initiative modifier. As a swift action on my next turn in battle I shout out, "Show them no mercy!" Thus, everyone adds five to their damage rolls, and as a standard action, I enact Bardic singing for a plus two, plus seven to the die rolls. That is if I go the next two levels as Marshal.

On the bad side, my castor level would stay at thirteenth and I would not get the spells chain lightning at fourteenth along with Greater Dispel Magic. I would not grow in the number of spells I cast per day. I do not own the miniature's handbook, I would have to get a xerox copy or buy one in the near future. I'm wondering is it worth it for the next two levels. At fifteenth level, I would pick up Reverse Gravity. :confused:

I appreciate your input on the matter.
King Kashue
02-21-05, 05:33 PM I kind of works like this. I shout out, "Watch out, there out to get us!" Activating my initiative-dex aura and everyone adds plus five to their initiative modifier. As a swift action on my next turn in battle I shout out, "Show them no mercy!" Thus, everyone adds five to their damage rolls, and as a standard action, I enact Bardic singing for a plus two, plus seven to the die rolls. That is if I go the next two levels as Marshal.

Ah, that's a bit of a misunderstanding of how initiative works. Unless it specifically says so under the Marshall ability, turning that aura off will drop everyone's initative back down...Even thought you roll initiative once, if your modifier changes in combat, so does your initiative (like when you get deafened by a thunderstone for instance)...
Artexerxees
02-21-05, 09:19 PM Are you sure about that, I have heard differently. :)
King Kashue
02-21-05, 11:29 PM Are you sure about that, I have heard differently. :)

Yep...be careful with what you hear...

I have heard that 'The LGCS says it is an evil act to attack a helpless foe' and that 'It is an evil act to ever coup d' grace someone' or that 'three evil acts and you're out of the campaign'...When the LGCS says none of those things...

The only possible effect a thunderstone has on a non-spell caster is a -4 penalty to initative...If that didn't change initiative after it had been rolled, then the thunderstone would serve no purpose (since you would only be able to throw it before combat had started and initiative had been rolled)...Same thing for Dex damage, it lowers your initiative...

For simplicity, many judges don't both with the Dex damage adjustment, but switching auras would make the marshall class more powerful than it already is...
oroborous
02-21-05, 11:50 PM I have heard that 'The LGCS says it is an evil act to attack a helpless foe' and that 'It is an evil act to ever coup d' grace someone'

Oh Boy! If that really were the rules then I'd have been out of the campaign a long time ago. I used my slippers of spider climbing to walk along the under side of a bridge and then grapple a member of the Bright Desert army from behind while he was helpless. Then I dropped him while we were 500' or so above the ground. I was also given authority by a NPC judge in a mod to execute a criminal. He was tied to a post and I used my longsword to disembowel him via a coup de grace.

Getting back to the subject at hand, if you can take Sublime Chord I think that would be the way to go.
Artexerxees
02-22-05, 10:29 AM I appreciate all your thoughts on the matter. :)
Cardinal Teplin
02-22-05, 12:17 PM Sublime chord, definitely. Better to concentrate on what you are good at already.
Artexerxees
02-23-05, 06:06 PM This is the latest, I finally got a copy of Marshal from the MH. How it works is I'll be a thirteenth level castor with one sixth level spell of Otto's Irresistible Dance(cast one time), two fifth level spells of Cone of Cold and Prismatic ray(cast three times), and four fourth level spells of Fire Orb, Evards, Dim Door and Freedom of Movement(cast four times a day).

Then, as a Marshal, I’ll be fourteenth level, I will give everyone a plus five bonus to their initiative rolls. I can keep that aura up at all times. It is a minor aura. I can keep another aura up as long as it is a major aura. Do you see the advantage here? Everyone will go before the creatures do. That is one advantage I think is worth the level of Marshal. However, since all people posted so far say otherwise. It is giving me doubts.

A level in Sublime Chord instead of Marshal will give me another spell added to cast at sixth level and Chain Lightning on the spell list. Another spell added to cast at fifth level with greater Dispel Magic as the added spell on the spell list.

If anyone has any other words to say or has already posted, go ahead and post what you will. I need the encouragement. :)
Sieylianna
02-23-05, 10:12 PM Then, as a Marshal, I’ll be fourteenth level, I will give everyone a plus five bonus to their initiative rolls. I can keep that aura up at all times. It is a minor aura. I can keep another aura up as long as it is a major aura. Do you see the advantage here? Everyone will go before the creatures do. That is one advantage I think is worth the level of Marshal. However, since all people posted so far say otherwise. It is giving me doubts.

But you need two levels of Marshal to get Major Aura.

Ed
Artexerxees
02-23-05, 10:21 PM Yeah, I didn't make it out so plainly. I was thinking of going two levels in Marshal. That way I can enact a plus one to all damage along with my bardic singing. I might as well go strait Bard for that. The consensus here has been to concentrate on spell casting instead of helping the party more. I'm thinking just one level of Marshal will give the party a plus five on initiative and the party will go first. One level of Marshal is acceptable, a party going first is a weapon in itself.
King Kashue
02-23-05, 11:39 PM Yeah, I didn't make it out so plainly. I was thinking of going two levels in Marshal. That way I can enact a plus one to all damage along with my bardic singing. I might as well go strait Bard for that. The consensus here has been to concentrate on spell casting instead of helping the party more. I'm thinking just one level of Marshal will give the party a plus five on initiative and the party will go first. One level of Marshal is acceptable, a party going first is a weapon in itself.

Of course at the APL you're talking about you run into stuff with double digit init modifiers...+5 is nice and a definite advantage, but it's not breaking the bank so to speak...

In the case of a Paladin for instance, +5 only means they're going on 8 :D
Cardinal Teplin
02-24-05, 07:57 AM The initiative bonus means that your party is more likely to go first - but then half of them may well have gone first anyway. Because the bonus is only of benefit if it allows them to preceeed a monster who might otherwise have gone ahead of them, it's only useful in those situations where the PC and monster got within 5 points of eachother and the monster won. That's likely to be, what, 1/3 of the party? On a full table, that's still a good advantage - two PCs getting actions they otherwise wouldn't, but it's not the whole party.

Another consideration is what type of party you travel with. Initative is much more important to wizards, people with light armour and/or low hp, and those with special charge boni. A spirited charge, a volley of spells, or a chance for the rogue to attack while the enemy are flatfooted, are all worthwhile.

If you're travelling instead with many large heavily armoured warriors, then winning initative isn't that much of an advantage at high level. Those who go first generally only get a singe attack as they close. Certainly many of the 'tanks' I've played with often delay at the start of the fight, hoping to get a buff or allow attacking spells to go off before engaging themselves.

And then there is autosurprise. Depending on your region, your DM, and the modules you play, winning intiative may not mean going first in any event, although it still gives an action where you otherwise wouldn't have one.

It's a good thing to go for - but then so is more spellcasting, particularly at high level. Niether choice is going to be disastrous, so go for the kind of character you want to play.
Sieylianna
02-24-05, 05:53 PM Another consideration is what type of party you travel with. Initative is much more important to wizards, people with light armour and/or low hp, and those with special charge boni. A spirited charge, a volley of spells, or a chance for the rogue to attack while the enemy are flatfooted, are all worthwhile.

And many of these people will have a decent initiative modifier already. My wizard is +8 now and will be +10 when she upgrades her gloves of Dexterity from +2 to +6. And if I really want to win initiative, there is always Moment of Prescience for another +16.

IMO, players will be more happy with a bard joining them at high levels if you have offensive spells than helping their intitiative. Bards have a reputation for weakness which is partially due to people not understanding their role and partially due to ineffective bard players. If you usually play with the same group, this isn't a factor, but if you go to cons, it may be a factor.

Ed
King Kashue
02-24-05, 07:10 PM Initative is much more important to wizards, people with light armour and/or low hp, and those with special charge boni.

Hanbury, can I just say I love the fact that you declined Bonus rather than pluralize it in English :D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Artexerxees 02-20-05, 07:05 PM	Right now before conversion hits I am a 13th level strait Bard. After conversion hits. I am going 10 levels of Bard, three levels of Sublime Chord. My next level is a dilemma. I don't know if I should go Marshal next or Sublime Chord. If I go with Marshal, the aura I pick up enhances initiative checks and Dexterity checks. If I go Sublime Chord, I pick up Chain Lightning and Prismatic Ray and I get an extra spell to cast on each of those listed spells. Any opinions right now I'll take. I have one friend who is pushing for Marshal but I'm thinking Sublime Chord. I have a plus twenty eight to my perform check so more than likely I will make plus four to my level enhancement to cast spells. My charisma is a twenty one with a plus four cloak of charisma. What do you all think? :P
Sieylianna 02-21-05, 11:12 AM	Right now before conversion hits I am a 13th level strait Bard. After conversion hits. I am going 10 levels of Bard, three levels of Sublime Chord. My next level is a dilemma. I don't know if I should go Marshal next or Sublime Chord. If I go with Marshal, the aura I pick up enhances initiative checks and Dexterity checks. If I go Sublime Chord, I pick up Chain Lightning and Prismatic Ray and I get an extra spell to cast on each of those listed spells. Any opinions right now I'll take. I have one friend who is pushing for Marshal but I'm thinking Sublime Chord. I have a plus twenty eight to my perform check so more than likely I will make plus four to my level enhancement to cast spells. My charisma is a twenty one with a plus four cloak of charisma. What do you all think? :P The first question is whether Bard or Marshal are preferred classes for the PC? You didn't give your race. If they aren't, you're looking at XP penalties. The next question is where do you want to be when you retire at 16th level? You only have three levels to go, so you need to decide how many more levels of sublime chord you want to gain. As stated in the minatures handbook (I don't know if there is errata), you could have the aura in effect all the time and it doesn't take concentration or otherwise interfere with your other actions. I suspect some DMs will question the ability due to a lack of familiarity. The fact that a 1st level marshal can provide a continuous +7 bonus to intitative (or reflex saves) sounds too good. Ed
Simpi 02-21-05, 01:09 PM	The fact that a 1st level marshal can provide a continuous +7 bonus to intitative (or reflex saves) sounds too good. Ed It's is indeed quite cheesy. But then again, authors can turn the tables when they write modules and have a group of relatively low CR monsters supported by Marshall and Bard (with the extra +1 to hit/damage rolls spell from CV) to cut through PCs like hot knife through butter. Add in the fact that 4th level marshall with high charisma can first make sure monsters win the initiative (by having the initiative aura in effect by default), then grant them extra move action and flank PCs and then switch the aura to the one that grants bonus on flanking damage roll for some serious pain, combined with bard and major aura bonuses. More importantly for the original poster: Read page 2, 2nd paragraph of conversion document. If you did not have levels of Marshall before the conversion, you may not take them (same goes to other new base classes). S.H, Ahlissa (Naerie) webslave
Artexerxees 02-21-05, 02:44 PM	My race is Half-Elf. I don't know where I want to be at sixteenth level. Yes, I know I can't switch levels for Marshal now. It is for the next two levels. I have a plus five initiative modifier to my charisma. If I go Marshal the next level, I would add the aura that gives my charisma modifier to my initiative rolls and Dexterity checks and dex-skills.. Then on the next level of Marshal, I would add the major aura that adds my charisma modifier to damage rolls. I kind of works like this. I shout out, "Watch out, there out to get us!" Activating my initiative-dex aura and everyone adds plus five to their initiative modifier. As a swift action on my next turn in battle I shout out, "Show them no mercy!" Thus, everyone adds five to their damage rolls, and as a standard action, I enact Bardic singing for a plus two, plus seven to the die rolls. That is if I go the next two levels as Marshal. On the bad side, my castor level would stay at thirteenth and I would not get the spells chain lightning at fourteenth along with Greater Dispel Magic. I would not grow in the number of spells I cast per day. I do not own the miniature's handbook, I would have to get a xerox copy or buy one in the near future. I'm wondering is it worth it for the next two levels. At fifteenth level, I would pick up Reverse Gravity. :confused: I appreciate your input on the matter.
King Kashue 02-21-05, 05:33 PM	I kind of works like this. I shout out, "Watch out, there out to get us!" Activating my initiative-dex aura and everyone adds plus five to their initiative modifier. As a swift action on my next turn in battle I shout out, "Show them no mercy!" Thus, everyone adds five to their damage rolls, and as a standard action, I enact Bardic singing for a plus two, plus seven to the die rolls. That is if I go the next two levels as Marshal. Ah, that's a bit of a misunderstanding of how initiative works. Unless it specifically says so under the Marshall ability, turning that aura off will drop everyone's initative back down...Even thought you roll initiative once, if your modifier changes in combat, so does your initiative (like when you get deafened by a thunderstone for instance)...
Artexerxees 02-21-05, 09:19 PM	Are you sure about that, I have heard differently. :)
King Kashue 02-21-05, 11:29 PM	Are you sure about that, I have heard differently. :) Yep...be careful with what you hear... I have heard that 'The LGCS says it is an evil act to attack a helpless foe' and that 'It is an evil act to ever coup d' grace someone' or that 'three evil acts and you're out of the campaign'...When the LGCS says none of those things... The only possible effect a thunderstone has on a non-spell caster is a -4 penalty to initative...If that didn't change initiative after it had been rolled, then the thunderstone would serve no purpose (since you would only be able to throw it before combat had started and initiative had been rolled)...Same thing for Dex damage, it lowers your initiative... For simplicity, many judges don't both with the Dex damage adjustment, but switching auras would make the marshall class more powerful than it already is...
oroborous 02-21-05, 11:50 PM	I have heard that 'The LGCS says it is an evil act to attack a helpless foe' and that 'It is an evil act to ever coup d' grace someone' Oh Boy! If that really were the rules then I'd have been out of the campaign a long time ago. I used my slippers of spider climbing to walk along the under side of a bridge and then grapple a member of the Bright Desert army from behind while he was helpless. Then I dropped him while we were 500' or so above the ground. I was also given authority by a NPC judge in a mod to execute a criminal. He was tied to a post and I used my longsword to disembowel him via a coup de grace. Getting back to the subject at hand, if you can take Sublime Chord I think that would be the way to go.
Artexerxees 02-22-05, 10:29 AM	I appreciate all your thoughts on the matter. :)
Cardinal Teplin 02-22-05, 12:17 PM	Sublime chord, definitely. Better to concentrate on what you are good at already.
Artexerxees 02-23-05, 06:06 PM	This is the latest, I finally got a copy of Marshal from the MH. How it works is I'll be a thirteenth level castor with one sixth level spell of Otto's Irresistible Dance(cast one time), two fifth level spells of Cone of Cold and Prismatic ray(cast three times), and four fourth level spells of Fire Orb, Evards, Dim Door and Freedom of Movement(cast four times a day). Then, as a Marshal, I’ll be fourteenth level, I will give everyone a plus five bonus to their initiative rolls. I can keep that aura up at all times. It is a minor aura. I can keep another aura up as long as it is a major aura. Do you see the advantage here? Everyone will go before the creatures do. That is one advantage I think is worth the level of Marshal. However, since all people posted so far say otherwise. It is giving me doubts. A level in Sublime Chord instead of Marshal will give me another spell added to cast at sixth level and Chain Lightning on the spell list. Another spell added to cast at fifth level with greater Dispel Magic as the added spell on the spell list. If anyone has any other words to say or has already posted, go ahead and post what you will. I need the encouragement. :)
Sieylianna 02-23-05, 10:12 PM	Then, as a Marshal, I’ll be fourteenth level, I will give everyone a plus five bonus to their initiative rolls. I can keep that aura up at all times. It is a minor aura. I can keep another aura up as long as it is a major aura. Do you see the advantage here? Everyone will go before the creatures do. That is one advantage I think is worth the level of Marshal. However, since all people posted so far say otherwise. It is giving me doubts. But you need two levels of Marshal to get Major Aura. Ed
Artexerxees 02-23-05, 10:21 PM	Yeah, I didn't make it out so plainly. I was thinking of going two levels in Marshal. That way I can enact a plus one to all damage along with my bardic singing. I might as well go strait Bard for that. The consensus here has been to concentrate on spell casting instead of helping the party more. I'm thinking just one level of Marshal will give the party a plus five on initiative and the party will go first. One level of Marshal is acceptable, a party going first is a weapon in itself.
King Kashue 02-23-05, 11:39 PM	Yeah, I didn't make it out so plainly. I was thinking of going two levels in Marshal. That way I can enact a plus one to all damage along with my bardic singing. I might as well go strait Bard for that. The consensus here has been to concentrate on spell casting instead of helping the party more. I'm thinking just one level of Marshal will give the party a plus five on initiative and the party will go first. One level of Marshal is acceptable, a party going first is a weapon in itself. Of course at the APL you're talking about you run into stuff with double digit init modifiers...+5 is nice and a definite advantage, but it's not breaking the bank so to speak... In the case of a Paladin for instance, +5 only means they're going on 8 :D
Cardinal Teplin 02-24-05, 07:57 AM	The initiative bonus means that your party is more likely to go first - but then half of them may well have gone first anyway. Because the bonus is only of benefit if it allows them to preceeed a monster who might otherwise have gone ahead of them, it's only useful in those situations where the PC and monster got within 5 points of eachother and the monster won. That's likely to be, what, 1/3 of the party? On a full table, that's still a good advantage - two PCs getting actions they otherwise wouldn't, but it's not the whole party. Another consideration is what type of party you travel with. Initative is much more important to wizards, people with light armour and/or low hp, and those with special charge boni. A spirited charge, a volley of spells, or a chance for the rogue to attack while the enemy are flatfooted, are all worthwhile. If you're travelling instead with many large heavily armoured warriors, then winning initative isn't that much of an advantage at high level. Those who go first generally only get a singe attack as they close. Certainly many of the 'tanks' I've played with often delay at the start of the fight, hoping to get a buff or allow attacking spells to go off before engaging themselves. And then there is autosurprise. Depending on your region, your DM, and the modules you play, winning intiative may not mean going first in any event, although it still gives an action where you otherwise wouldn't have one. It's a good thing to go for - but then so is more spellcasting, particularly at high level. Niether choice is going to be disastrous, so go for the kind of character you want to play.
Sieylianna 02-24-05, 05:53 PM	Another consideration is what type of party you travel with. Initative is much more important to wizards, people with light armour and/or low hp, and those with special charge boni. A spirited charge, a volley of spells, or a chance for the rogue to attack while the enemy are flatfooted, are all worthwhile. And many of these people will have a decent initiative modifier already. My wizard is +8 now and will be +10 when she upgrades her gloves of Dexterity from +2 to +6. And if I really want to win initiative, there is always Moment of Prescience for another +16. IMO, players will be more happy with a bard joining them at high levels if you have offensive spells than helping their intitiative. Bards have a reputation for weakness which is partially due to people not understanding their role and partially due to ineffective bard players. If you usually play with the same group, this isn't a factor, but if you go to cons, it may be a factor. Ed
King Kashue 02-24-05, 07:10 PM	Initative is much more important to wizards, people with light armour and/or low hp, and those with special charge boni. Hanbury, can I just say I love the fact that you declined Bonus rather than pluralize it in English :D