Tremorsense [Archive] - Wizards Community

Tremorsense [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ramacass
05-17-07, 10:09 AM Does a creature locating something with tremorsense yet unable to see it visually suffer a 50%miss chance?
_metz_
05-17-07, 10:12 AM From SRD:

Tremor sense (Ex): A creature with tremor sense is sensitive to vibrations in the ground and can automatically pinpoint the location of anything that is in contact with the ground. Aquatic creatures with tremor sense can also sense the location of creatures moving through water. The ability’s range is specified in the creature’s descriptive text.

Pinpoint means no miss chance.
pedr
05-17-07, 10:16 AM <snip>

Pinpoint means no miss chance.No it doesn't.

Pinpoint means 'I know what square it's in'. If it still has full concealment, it still has full concealment giving a 50% miss chance (and preventing targeting it etc).
_metz_
05-17-07, 11:30 AM Ah ok then.

I stand by my view then that is a terrible use of the word "pinpoint" or the use of rather large pins... (5 foot pins to be exact)
Jay_Ibero_911
05-17-07, 11:48 AM Ah ok then.

I stand by my view then that is a terrible use of the word "pinpoint" or the use of rather large pins... (5 foot pins to be exact)

Well think of it this way...Just because you know exactly where a person's feet are doesn't necessarily mean you know where the rest of their body is in their square...
Squeakalot
05-20-07, 03:39 AM Since we're on the topic. If say, I'm invisible and mounted, does termorsense let a creature know I'm mounted or does it only detect my mount?
King Kashue
05-20-07, 06:30 AM Since we're on the topic. If say, I'm invisible and mounted, does termorsense let a creature know I'm mounted or does it only detect my mount?

The rider isn't touching the ground, so tremorsense shouldn't be able to detect him.

Blindsense would detect the rider however.
Timlagor
05-20-07, 06:57 AM It might deduce that you're mounted however depending on the circumstances (especially if you talk).

It could also attack into your square... not sure how to adjudicate that but I think I'd go with a 50% chance of hitting and then determine which occupant afterwards. Others might give a separate 50% against each occupant (the square is 'more full') but then you have the problem of multiple successes.

I haven't actually checked the wording so the situation may actually be clear in the rules: something that's worth checking if you plan to go invisible on an invisible mount. (looking again it actually looks like your situation was a visible mount)
Squeakalot
05-20-07, 09:54 PM Actually, I was referring to both my mount and I being invisible.
Lupo
05-21-07, 06:42 AM Since we're on the topic. If say, I'm invisible and mounted, does termorsense let a creature know I'm mounted or does it only detect my mount?

in D&D 3.5 technically you share ALL squares or cubes with your mount - see PHB page 157 For simplicity assume that you share your mount's space during combat. a creature with tremorsense can pinpoint your mount AND you:rolleyes: .

ciao

martin m.
King Kashue
05-21-07, 02:15 PM a creature with tremorsense can pinpoint your mount AND you:rolleyes: .

You're not touching the ground. How does he even know the mount has a rider unless he's seen you on the mount (which he hasn't, since both are invisible)?
Lupo
05-21-07, 03:18 PM You're not touching the ground. How does he even know the mount has a rider unless he's seen you on the mount (which he hasn't, since both are invisible)?

because the monster has a D&D 3.5 PHB in its lair and there it states that you ARE touching the ground :D

ok, in real live it would need to grab a "standard mounts" manual, look up how the vibrations for different mounts with and without rider are and therefore deduct that you are sitting atop of it.

but the critter is lucky and dwells in a D&D 3.5 world where mounts are cubical and a rider can dismount to any adjacent square AND a rider shares the same space with the mount.

ciao

martin m.
King Kashue
05-21-07, 03:25 PM because the monster has a D&D 3.5 PHB in its lair and there it states that you ARE touching the ground :D

No it doesn't.

but the critter is lucky and dwells in a D&D 3.5 world where mounts are cubical and a rider can dismount to any adjacent square AND a rider shares the same space with the mount.

You share all four squares. That doesn't mean you're touching the ground.

This isn't a "3.5 world" issue. There's nothing that says you're automatically touching the ground, therefore you're not.

This is like the opposite of the "it doesn't say I fall down when I'm unconscious" nonsense.

Sure, the rule doesn't say you don't fall over, but it's common sense, so you do.

In this case, the common sense is that you aren't touching the ground. And since the rule doesn't state that you are, there's no reason to add an implied element that goes against common sense.
Howie23
05-21-07, 03:49 PM In this case, the common sense is that you aren't touching the ground. And since the rule doesn't state that you are, there's no reason to add an implied element that goes against common sense.

Clearly the rider isn't touching the ground.

Tremorsense doesn't rely on sight, so the issue has nothing to do with invisibility, it is the case of what can the tremorsensor know about the target other than where it is.

If I were called upon to make a ruling right now, I think I would go with a near impossible knowledge check to identify the mount (DC10+HD+20), and a near impossible survival check to realize it is bearing a rider and not in its natural condition. That survival DC would be some base number+20+a circumstance modifier based upon the size difference of the mount and rider, if you want to get fancy.

Happy to hear critique or other opinions.

David

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ramacass 05-17-07, 10:09 AM	Does a creature locating something with tremorsense yet unable to see it visually suffer a 50%miss chance?
_metz_ 05-17-07, 10:12 AM	From SRD: Tremor sense (Ex): A creature with tremor sense is sensitive to vibrations in the ground and can automatically pinpoint the location of anything that is in contact with the ground. Aquatic creatures with tremor sense can also sense the location of creatures moving through water. The ability’s range is specified in the creature’s descriptive text. Pinpoint means no miss chance.
pedr 05-17-07, 10:16 AM	<snip> Pinpoint means no miss chance.No it doesn't. Pinpoint means 'I know what square it's in'. If it still has full concealment, it still has full concealment giving a 50% miss chance (and preventing targeting it etc).
_metz_ 05-17-07, 11:30 AM	Ah ok then. I stand by my view then that is a terrible use of the word "pinpoint" or the use of rather large pins... (5 foot pins to be exact)
Jay_Ibero_911 05-17-07, 11:48 AM	Ah ok then. I stand by my view then that is a terrible use of the word "pinpoint" or the use of rather large pins... (5 foot pins to be exact) Well think of it this way...Just because you know exactly where a person's feet are doesn't necessarily mean you know where the rest of their body is in their square...
Squeakalot 05-20-07, 03:39 AM	Since we're on the topic. If say, I'm invisible and mounted, does termorsense let a creature know I'm mounted or does it only detect my mount?
King Kashue 05-20-07, 06:30 AM	Since we're on the topic. If say, I'm invisible and mounted, does termorsense let a creature know I'm mounted or does it only detect my mount? The rider isn't touching the ground, so tremorsense shouldn't be able to detect him. Blindsense would detect the rider however.
Timlagor 05-20-07, 06:57 AM	It might deduce that you're mounted however depending on the circumstances (especially if you talk). It could also attack into your square... not sure how to adjudicate that but I think I'd go with a 50% chance of hitting and then determine which occupant afterwards. Others might give a separate 50% against each occupant (the square is 'more full') but then you have the problem of multiple successes. I haven't actually checked the wording so the situation may actually be clear in the rules: something that's worth checking if you plan to go invisible on an invisible mount. (looking again it actually looks like your situation was a visible mount)
Squeakalot 05-20-07, 09:54 PM	Actually, I was referring to both my mount and I being invisible.
Lupo 05-21-07, 06:42 AM	Since we're on the topic. If say, I'm invisible and mounted, does termorsense let a creature know I'm mounted or does it only detect my mount? in D&D 3.5 technically you share ALL squares or cubes with your mount - see PHB page 157 For simplicity assume that you share your mount's space during combat. a creature with tremorsense can pinpoint your mount AND you:rolleyes: . ciao martin m.
King Kashue 05-21-07, 02:15 PM	a creature with tremorsense can pinpoint your mount AND you:rolleyes: . You're not touching the ground. How does he even know the mount has a rider unless he's seen you on the mount (which he hasn't, since both are invisible)?
Lupo 05-21-07, 03:18 PM	You're not touching the ground. How does he even know the mount has a rider unless he's seen you on the mount (which he hasn't, since both are invisible)? because the monster has a D&D 3.5 PHB in its lair and there it states that you ARE touching the ground :D ok, in real live it would need to grab a "standard mounts" manual, look up how the vibrations for different mounts with and without rider are and therefore deduct that you are sitting atop of it. but the critter is lucky and dwells in a D&D 3.5 world where mounts are cubical and a rider can dismount to any adjacent square AND a rider shares the same space with the mount. ciao martin m.
King Kashue 05-21-07, 03:25 PM	because the monster has a D&D 3.5 PHB in its lair and there it states that you ARE touching the ground :D No it doesn't. but the critter is lucky and dwells in a D&D 3.5 world where mounts are cubical and a rider can dismount to any adjacent square AND a rider shares the same space with the mount. You share all four squares. That doesn't mean you're touching the ground. This isn't a "3.5 world" issue. There's nothing that says you're automatically touching the ground, therefore you're not. This is like the opposite of the "it doesn't say I fall down when I'm unconscious" nonsense. Sure, the rule doesn't say you don't fall over, but it's common sense, so you do. In this case, the common sense is that you aren't touching the ground. And since the rule doesn't state that you are, there's no reason to add an implied element that goes against common sense.
Howie23 05-21-07, 03:49 PM	In this case, the common sense is that you aren't touching the ground. And since the rule doesn't state that you are, there's no reason to add an implied element that goes against common sense. Clearly the rider isn't touching the ground. Tremorsense doesn't rely on sight, so the issue has nothing to do with invisibility, it is the case of what can the tremorsensor know about the target other than where it is. If I were called upon to make a ruling right now, I think I would go with a near impossible knowledge check to identify the mount (DC10+HD+20), and a near impossible survival check to realize it is bearing a rider and not in its natural condition. That survival DC would be some base number+20+a circumstance modifier based upon the size difference of the mount and rider, if you want to get fancy. Happy to hear critique or other opinions. David