Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TimRat 08-30-07, 06:25 PM	Ok this answers the question of PCs who have 0 TUs right now or when they run out of 0 TUs what do they do with adventures that have imprisonment and the like. "If you are currently at 0 TUs, you may continue playing adventures, but may not partake in any activities that require TUs. If you are at 0 TUs and are forced to pay TUs as a penalty, such as imprisonment, you are taken out of play, as you cannot pay the penalty; as soon as you are able to pay the penalty fully, you may return to play." Thanks!
control freak 08-30-07, 10:09 PM	so scourge+ barrows + fane+ RHoD + demonwebs + dragon down can take you to 11 or 12 with just adps now :D oh yah i forgot the APL12 hell spike and APL 12 fields of ruin that should take u to level 13 or 14 for Frostfell
garyjohnson 08-31-07, 12:58 AM	Hi, TimRat. Thanks for the ruling - can you clarify something, please? The new ruling states: "If you are currently at 0 TUs, you ... may not partake in any activities that require TUs." LGCS 7.5 page 7, TUs for retraining: "These TUs may be paid out of next year's total, if necessary." My question: Can a PC at 0 TUs retrain and pay the 4 TU cost out of next year's total? Thanks in advance, Gary Johnson
Britt 08-31-07, 01:42 AM	I'll check with the others, but I believe the answer is yes.
Hariman 08-31-07, 07:17 PM	I'll check with the others, but I believe the answer is yes. But afterwards, you can't keep playing because you have a TU debt, right? So this ruling basically states that "If you end up with less than 0 TUs, your character cannot play until next year, when he gets the new year's TUs" RIGHT? Really now, can't we just play the characters and have fun? I crafted my primary into a TU debt of -1, and it's really gonna sting if I have to wait till next year to play him again because of that one F****** TU. That one single only TU I've ever had him spend on crafting. Hariman
Howie23 08-31-07, 08:09 PM	But afterwards, you can't keep playing because you have a TU debt, right? So this ruling basically states that "If you end up with less than 0 TUs, your character cannot play until next year, when he gets the new year's TUs" RIGHT? Really now, can't we just play the characters and have fun? I crafted my primary into a TU debt of -1, and it's really gonna sting if I have to wait till next year to play him again because of that one F****** TU. That one single only TU I've ever had him spend on crafting. Hariman There isn't an option to borrow TUs to craft that I know of. So, the solution is pretty simple. You couldn't have crafted anyway, so reverse it, take your 20% GP penalty, and play away. :) David
Britt 08-31-07, 08:22 PM	The important word in the ruling is 'penalty'. If you are at 0 TUs and forced to pay a TU penalty, you are out of play until you can pay it. If it's not a penalty, you aren't out of play. As mentioned, you can't craft out of next year's TUs, so that needs to be fixed in your character record. Another important note is that you can't actually go into negative TUs. You can go to 0 TUs and spend some TUs from next year, but you aren't at negative TUs. Thinking in terms of negative TUs will screw with your understanding of rules.
Hariman 09-01-07, 09:57 PM	The important word in the ruling is 'penalty'. If you are at 0 TUs and forced to pay a TU penalty, you are out of play until you can pay it. If it's not a penalty, you aren't out of play. As mentioned, you can't craft out of next year's TUs, so that needs to be fixed in your character record. Another important note is that you can't actually go into negative TUs. You can go to 0 TUs and spend some TUs from next year, but you aren't at negative TUs. Thinking in terms of negative TUs will screw with your understanding of rules. Technically, it wasn't crafting that spent that extra TU. It was a "pay 1 TU for X event to be completed for X access" (Scribing Scrolls only left the character at 0 TUs.) The crafting DID happen before the adventure and I did have the TU for said crafting. So the gist of this is "I shouldn't be thinking in terms of Negative TUs, instead it's "TUs spent from next year's 52 TUs" which leaves me with 0 TUs this year and 51 for next year. Which makes me a happy camper. Right?
Britt 09-01-07, 11:27 PM	Technically, it wasn't crafting that spent that extra TU. It was a "pay 1 TU for X event to be completed for X access" (Scribing Scrolls only left the character at 0 TUs.) The crafting DID happen before the adventure and I did have the TU for said crafting. If you could have legally borrowed that TU from next year, you're fine. I don't know what exactly you're talking about, so it's hard to say. If you knew you were going to have to spend those TUs going into the adventure and knew that would require TUs from next year, you wouldn't have been allowed to do it.
Greyson 09-02-07, 01:28 AM	Technically, it wasn't crafting that spent that extra TU. It was a "pay 1 TU for X event to be completed for X access" (Scribing Scrolls only left the character at 0 TUs.) The crafting DID happen before the adventure and I did have the TU for said crafting. So the gist of this is "I shouldn't be thinking in terms of Negative TUs, instead it's "TUs spent from next year's 52 TUs" which leaves me with 0 TUs this year and 51 for next year. Right? No, you cannot do this. There is no general or standard provision in Living Greyhawk that allows this. You are gonna have to ditch your access until 1 January 2008 or or uncraft your item. You cannot draw on 2008's TUs like a line of credit. This particular character can keep playing adventures this year, but with zero TUs to spend on anything. Perhaps this character has a favor or some other AR benefit that reduces or expunges a TU requirement for crafting/meta orgs/ access, etc., so you can keep both (I'm trying to help). If not, check in with your local triad or next senior judge to fix this little issue. Which region are you in? Don (Greyson) Nyrond Triad
Hariman 09-02-07, 10:54 AM	If you could have legally borrowed that TU from next year, you're fine. I don't know what exactly you're talking about, so it's hard to say. If you knew you were going to have to spend those TUs going into the adventure and knew that would require TUs from next year, you wouldn't have been allowed to do it. Then I should be fine. The character had 3 TUs to start, spent 2 on the adventure and one on crafting. After the adventure, he spent the 4th TU on the AR item. (I'll PM you with the actual AR item's title, to avoid spoilers.) Which my local DM pointed out as being OK because it was a TU cost beyond the normal cost of the adventure, and I didn't know about the extra cost in advance. So, I should be OK. EDIT: PM has been sent. No, you cannot do this. There is no general or standard provision in Living Greyhawk that allows this. You are gonna have to ditch your access until 1 January 2008 or or uncraft your item. You cannot draw on 2008's TUs like a line of credit. This particular character can keep playing adventures this year, but with zero TUs to spend on anything. Perhaps this character has a favor or some other AR benefit that reduces or expunges a TU requirement for crafting/meta orgs/ access, etc., so you can keep both (I'm trying to help). If not, check in with your local triad or next senior judge to fix this little issue. Which region are you in? Don (Greyson) Nyrond Triad But the favor doesn't actually grant access, it's a part of the adventure that you can spend an extra TU on to travel to X and give a warning to X. It can have an effect on future adventures, but it's not access. From what Britt says, I can spend that TU from next year because I didn't know that the cost was there beforehand. I'll PM the favor title to you as well. EDIT: PM sent. Hariman
JJeff 09-03-07, 11:45 PM	But if you had an option to NOT spend the extra 1 TU cost, you have to take that option as you don't have TU at that point. Only if you are FORCED to spend a TU, or explicitly said in the module/AR that you can, can you borrow TUs for the next year. If you are FORCED, it's a penalty and you won't be a happy camper. If the module explicitly allows borrowing, then you're a happy camper. If the module doesn't say and it isn't forced, you have to NOT take that AR option as you can't spend that 1 TU.
Britt 09-03-07, 11:49 PM	I haven't looked at the adventure yet, but I think what happened is that you had a choice during the adventure without knowing the consequences, and if you choose one option, you have to spend an extra TU on the AR, but it's not a penalty per se. I think that's how it worked, but not positive.
Jay_Ibero_911 09-04-07, 10:35 AM	I haven't looked at the adventure yet, but I think what happened is that you had a choice during the adventure without knowing the consequences, and if you choose one option, you have to spend an extra TU on the AR, but it's not a penalty per se. I think that's how it worked, but not positive. I'm 99% sure I know what adventure he's talking about, and yeah, it doesn't explicitly tell you about the TU cost before you make the decision, though you can kinda guess it will require some time commitment...
Hariman 09-04-07, 11:15 AM	I'm 99% sure I know what adventure he's talking about, and yeah, it doesn't explicitly tell you about the TU cost before you make the decision, though you can kinda guess it will require some time commitment... I did PM the AR item text to Britt and Greyson. These were the responses that I received. Britt: "You're fine then, I believe, as that is not a punishment and you could not have foreseen that going into the adventure." Greyson: "These kind of unexpected TU costs can foul things up. I see now why your table judge let ya do that. Thanks for sharing the AR text. It does make sense. Don" Jay, you could PM me which adventure/AR item you think it is and I could tell you if your guess is correct.
copper_wyrmling 09-08-07, 11:30 AM	Regarding retraining, I know that retraining TUs can explicitly be borrowed from next year. Say I have a PC with 2 TUs left after the AR where she gains a level. I know she can retrain, sending her TUs to zero and borrowing two from next year. (a) Can she play more games this year, after borrowing those two TUs from next year? (b) If the answer to (a) is yes, and she levels again this year, can she retrain again, borrowing another four TUs from next year? (meaning she's borrowed six TUs from next year in total?)
Wraith235 09-08-07, 10:24 PM	Stupid question ... but what is the propper way to Record TU's now ..... I dont suppose we could get an upload from one of the Circle members of how to Accuratly fill AR's out since there is 0 TU Cost
Britt 09-08-07, 11:19 PM	Regarding retraining, I know that retraining TUs can explicitly be borrowed from next year. Say I have a PC with 2 TUs left after the AR where she gains a level. I know she can retrain, sending her TUs to zero and borrowing two from next year. (a) Can she play more games this year, after borrowing those two TUs from next year? (b) If the answer to (a) is yes, and she levels again this year, can she retrain again, borrowing another four TUs from next year? (meaning she's borrowed six TUs from next year in total?) A and yes.
Morgen 09-11-07, 02:26 PM	I've got 2 important questions for you here Britt regarding this no TU thing. The Play More Living Greyhawk Article said that you paid 12 gp per round of at home regional adventuring (24 for away games and 75 for luxury or rich). What exactly counts as a round? Per TU it would have cost? I wouldn't think so because we never called a 4TU mod a 4 round mod. I'm trying to get it cleared up, I think its going to save my RHoD group a ton of gold seeing as that counts as one big adventure. Also, I have a meta organization that I seriously need to have TU's spent to progress in it, can I willing still use my TU's for adventuring purposes? If I can't it's going to suck for my knighthood status. Please let me know!! :D
KarmaInferno 09-11-07, 03:05 PM	One AR = One Round, generally. Most adventures are one round. Those that are multiple rounds will specifically say so, and will sometimes have multiple ARs to reflect it. Metaorg TU costs, crafting TU costs, etc are unchanged. It's just the TU cost for adventures that went away. So, fill out a big fat zero in the Adventure TUs, and whatever extra TUs you might need to spend go in the "Other TU Costs" box. -karma
chesspiece 09-11-07, 04:24 PM	One AR = One Round, generally. Most adventures are one round. Those that are multiple rounds will specifically say so, and will sometimes have multiple ARs to reflect it. (snip non-adventuring) -karma A reasonable conclusion, but incorrect in this case. From another thread: From the LGCs: Core adventures costs two TUs per round. Regional and Metaregional adventures cost one TU per round for in-region PCs and two TUs per round for out-of-region PCs. Adapted and Core Special adventures have varied TU costs. Just use the TU cost. It's pretty clear that is the intent. If necessary ask Britt in the questions/answers thread. ya the rest have answered the questions regarding cost of lifestyle and ya RHOD is 0 TUs as of sept 1 mind you. (snip comments on running out of TUs) Tim S. VTF Circle Member A Circle member has confirmed the TU / 2 = # rounds interpretation. IMO, it was an unfortunate choice of words when they used "rounds" in the Zero TU announcement. But we have an official clarification.
solbergb 09-11-07, 06:17 PM	geesh....just pay your lifestyle costs the same way you always have. Add the TU's for the adventure to the TU's for non-adventure stuff and multiply by lifestyle cost. The zero TU thing for adventure activity only affects the TU part of the AR. Pay lifestyle as if it wasn't zero TU.
Morgen 09-11-07, 08:30 PM	So half the original TU's in Rounds, rounding up. That ruling is important, after all if you only have to pay once per AR you save over a thousand gold in Red Hand. As for my point before. I'm not talking about TU's spent on the meta org itself, it's very obvious you still pay those. I'm asking if I can still just play like a regional mod and spend 1 TU on it so the requirement that I have to be a Squire for 16 TU's can actually be completed in a reasonably sane manor. I suppose I could start using my perform(sing) if it gets too ridiculous though...
Wraith235 09-11-07, 08:43 PM	as far as everything I know (1TU)Regional 1 Round - 12 gp standard - Rich 50 - Luxury 100 (2TU)Regional 2 Round - 24 gp standard - Rich 100 - Luxury 200 (2TU)Core 1 Round - 24 gp standard - Rich 100 - Luxury 200 (4TU)Core 2 Round - 48 gp standard - Rich 200 - Luxury 400 these are assuming Standard TU Usage on the Multi Round Mods when you get into adaptables (7TU)Fane of the Drow - 84 standard - 350 Rich - 700 Luxury (11TU)Barrow of the Forgotten King - 132 / 550 / 1100 and so on and so Forth it Really isnt that hard to get
Hariman 09-11-07, 11:32 PM	I've got 2 important questions for you here Britt regarding this no TU thing. The Play More Living Greyhawk Article said that you paid 12 gp per round of at home regional adventuring (24 for away games and 75 for luxury or rich). What exactly counts as a round? Per TU it would have cost? I wouldn't think so because we never called a 4TU mod a 4 round mod. I'm trying to get it cleared up, I think its going to save my RHoD group a ton of gold seeing as that counts as one big adventure. Also, I have a meta organization that I seriously need to have TU's spent to progress in it, can I willing still use my TU's for adventuring purposes? If I can't it's going to suck for my knighthood status. Please let me know!! :D I'm pretty sure that you could simply spend TUs after an adventure (up to the cost of an adventure) on the metaorg, with the DM writing in the play notes section "Spent 2 TUs for x metaorg" in the Play Notes section of an AR. So for a 1 round core, you could spend 2 TUs toward the metaorg. For Fane of the Drow, you could spend up to 7 TUs toward the metaorg. For Red Hand of Doom, you could spend up to 51 TUs toward the Metaorg, if you include all 5 parts. I don't think any DMs would object to that. But some official confirmation for this would be nice. There are DMs who would likely say "It's not official, so NO" Also, Morgen, you could E-mail the Metaorg's Point of Contact. That person could give you a ruling on this too.
Icefyre 09-16-07, 01:50 PM	I was under the impression that until you reach 0 time units, everything is the same. You still pay TUs for adventuring, you still pay TUs for crafting, you still pay TU penalties. It's not to say that since the 1st of september, those 20 TU you had left have turned into big fat crafting time units, or as a buffer against the penalties you may accrue. (Unless of course you spent those 20 TU in crafting before the next adventure and you're fine.) Once your TU have reached a score of 0, only then do no longer pay any TU for the adventures, can no longer craft, and run the risk of negative TUs, but of course still pay the upkeep as if you had. If it makes it easier, for you to work things out, keep track of your bonus TU the same way you would your standard ones by putting adventure cost in brackets, but putting a 0 next to it for the sums, so it might appear as: Starting TU: 0 TU TU cost: (2)0 TU Added TU: - TU remaining: 0
Greyson 09-16-07, 06:23 PM	I was under the impression that until you reach 0 time units, everything is the same... Once your TU have reached a score of 0, only then do no longer pay any TU for the adventures ... This is totally incorrect. As of 1 September 2007 all adventures cost zero time units, regardless of how many a character had on 31 August 2007. Characters no longer pay TUs to play adventures, even if they had all 52 left from this year. There is no TU count down if you have some left in relation to adventure cost. A character certainly does have a big fat TU bank for crafting and using Skills to earn GP on and after 1 September 2007. Don (Greyson) Nyrond Triad
Wraith235 09-16-07, 11:08 PM	There is no TU count down if you have some left. A character certainly does have a big fat TU bank for crafting and using Skills to earn GP on and after 1 September 2007. Don (Greyson) Nyrond Triad this portion of your Comment is incorrect At the moment Each character will still have 52 TUs a year and must still take away the TU costs of metaorganizations, crafting, and any other expenditure that requires the player to use TUs. (Examples include using TUs to grant access to past items on adventure records, imprisonment costs, or retraining.) that is from the announcment itsself ...now from the massive ammount of confusion I see on these boards Hopefully Britt or someone can come out and say .... "This is how it is" 100% ect ect and if there are still problems after that I think we need to hand out signs
Greyson 09-17-07, 12:56 AM	I forgot how precise one has to be when posting at Wizards of the Coast's boards. I added an edit to my above post that I hope helps. I am trying to say that characters do not incur time unit costs for playing adventures. I want to dispel the idea that a character keeps ticking off or counting down those TUs to zero to pay for adventures. Whatever TUs a character had as of this month don't get used to pay the 1 or 2 TUs per adventure (depending on if the adventure is a Core or regional and how many rounds it is). As usual, that amount resets to 52 on 1 January 2008, and is still not used to pay adventure cost. Every other TU related cost must still be paid. Characters that are casters, crafters, meta-org hogs and other TU gobbling activities still have to be budgeted. So, characters do have a "TU count down" related to anything not pertaining to adventure cost.
KarmaInferno 09-17-07, 12:41 PM	My bard character still plays one TU a module, because she uses the non-adventuring activity option to take 10 on a DC 50 Perform check for money. This is due to her excuse for being in any given region is that shes holding a concert in the area. :) -karma
Icefyre 09-18-07, 06:58 AM	This is totally incorrect. Don (Greyson) Nyrond Triad Yay ;) I must admit that I hadn't actually read the announcement myself when I made my first post on this thread, and was just passing on what I'd heard at a GenCon UK which spanned the turn of the month. I'm guessing it was a case of chinese whispers really. Bad Icefyre. Must go and iron his hands... I
qstor 09-23-07, 06:58 PM	I think some of these answers might be ripe for inclusion on the next Dispel Confusion :) Mike
rockondon 10-22-07, 05:36 PM	so please tell me if I'm right or wrong. I have 0 TUs remaining right now. Which means: 1) If I get any kind of TU penalty I can NOT play that character again until next year. 2) I can NOT craft any items until next year. 3) I CAN borrow next year's TUs for retraining. 4) I CAN borrow next year's TUs for things like paying a TU cost on an AR for item access or other favors.
_metz_ 10-22-07, 07:23 PM	so please tell me if I'm right or wrong. I have 0 TUs remaining right now. Which means: 1) If I get any kind of TU penalty I can NOT play that character again until next year. 2) I can NOT craft any items until next year. 3) I CAN borrow next year's TUs for retraining. 4) I CAN borrow next year's TUs for things like paying a TU cost on an AR for item access or other favors. There is a pertinent post that explains what you may or may not do in this thread.
bitznarf 10-22-07, 07:37 PM	If you had MORE Than 0 TUS when the TU ruling was made you cannot play anymore. This depends on the reason he got to 0 TUs.
magebeast 10-22-07, 08:30 PM	If you had MORE Than 0 TUS when the TU ruling was made you cannot play anymore. If you had 0 TUs when the 0 TU announcement was made there is a pertinent post that explains what you may or may not do in this thread. You can play if you have 0 TUs. You can craft yourself down to 0 TUs and still play, or burn up all your TUs on Metaorgs. If you can't pay all your Metaorg TU costs you leave the Metaorg. If you get jailed to below 0 TUs or penalized in some way, only then can you no longer play.
rockondon 10-23-07, 07:16 PM	what I'm mainly curious about is non-penalty TU expenditures. It seems strange to me that we are allowed to borrow next year's TUs for retraining. What I want to know is if a PC has 0 TUs (and had 0 TUs before the announcement on TUs was made) and he later plays an AR that says "If the PC spends 2 TUs he can gain access to X" or "for a cost of 2 TUs the PC can do X" can he do it? Does that merely increase the standard upkeep costs of that module or does it also borrow 2 TUs from 2008 or is it simply not permissable?
Hariman 10-23-07, 08:28 PM	what I'm mainly curious about is non-penalty TU expenditures. It seems strange to me that we are allowed to borrow next year's TUs for retraining. It is odd, but borrowing TUs for retraining has been stated as not being a penalty. So I'm not going to complain. What I want to know is if a PC has 0 TUs (and had 0 TUs before the announcement on TUs was made) and he later plays an AR that says "If the PC spends 2 TUs he can gain access to X" or "for a cost of 2 TUs the PC can do X" can he do it? Does that merely increase the standard upkeep costs of that module or does it also borrow 2 TUs from 2008 or is it simply not permissable? I think it depends on whether or not it's part of the adventure and how the favor is written. I know that: If a character is at 0 TUs and has a favor that reads, "You may spend one TU to receive training for x feats, at the cost of 1 TU per feat." He CAN'T use that favor. I'm pretty sure that: However, for a favor that reads "For spending a week partying with the Clerics of Wenta, this PC gains access to Drunken Master. This costs one extra TU." I THINK you can spend one of Next year's TUs on this because it is a part of the adventure. The comparison for this second example is adventures with in mod events that cost an extra TU. I have seen a few mods that would cost an extra TU if PCs took certain actions or failed to accomplish certain goals.
rockondon 10-23-07, 11:15 PM	so would it be accurate to say that PCs are allowed to borrow next year's TUs for roleplaying decisions made during the adventure - even if its reasonable to assume that a given decision will likely result in extra TUs - but they are forbidden to borrow TUs for decisions made after the ARs are handed out. And that the "spirit of the rule" for 0 TUs is that characters are allowed to keep playing after 0 TUs but cannot spend next year's TUs like a line of credit on things that are optional, with retraining as the only exception. Essentially the 0 TU rule lets you keep playing but that's it. Any favor requiring a TU cost cannot be taken unless A) you have enough TUs for it, or B) the favor was chosen during gameplay before the conclusion of the module - in which case you can borrow TUs from 2008. Does that sound right?