TWF build needed [Archive] - Wizards Community

TWF build needed [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Necrochaos
07-26-06, 08:53 PM I'm trying out some possible LG characters in MOH and Xendrik. I'm interested in a TWF build so I figure I start with ranger for the free feats and stack in some fighter with it. Any idea on a possible build with feats? The build needs to be non-human, so I can change the race without trying to figure out what to do with the feat.

I've seen it lead into Dervish, but I wonder if that is the best lead. What about the Tempest PrC?
clik_ml
07-27-06, 12:21 AM TWF only shines when you get to add bonus damage. Be it by adding dex to damage via Champ of Corellon (a very late game bonus), or just a hefty bag full of buffs from spellcasting. The easiest way to get bonus damage is the ubiquituous sneak attack damage. It doesn't work on everything, but when it works, it really works. TWFing makes more sense for rogues than pretty much for anyone else. It takes a lot of bonus damage for it not to be worth it to simply wield a big weapon two-handed (which intrinsically does more damage, and adds much more power attack to damage to boot).

So the first question for your TWFer is, are you comfortable dealing out many dice of sneak attack damage as your raison d'etre?

Follow-up question is, if so do you mind using daggers?

Tempest is probably not any good for what you're wanting. Since it is probably not any good period. Dervish... meh. It can be used. I'm not wild about it, but it certainly isn't horrible.
Necrochaos
07-27-06, 06:50 AM Daggers? I don't need no stinking daggers! I don't care what weapon I use. I didn't realize that Rogue was the TWF class. I never realized the sneak attack damage would be so useful.

Does the TWF suck when you fight constructs undead and such? I read in another TWF to stay away from dodge and mobility. I'm going to have to wear light armor for the most part. And I'm going to be upfront to do all of this. How do I keep my AC to high as my con probably won't come close to being the barbarian?
kenobi65
07-27-06, 10:40 AM As clik_ml notes, TWF gets left in the dust by a two-handed weapon when it comes to damage output (esp. once you factor in Power Attack).

Though it takes a feat to use proficiently, IMO the best weapon for TWF is the two-bladed sword (if you can stand looking like Darth Maul). It lets you do a d8 of damage with the off hand (no other weapon that qualifies as "light" is above a d6), and lets you get the benefits of weapon-specific feats (Weapon Focus, Improved Critical) on both hands.
Lomiat
07-27-06, 01:07 PM Wood-elf
Str 18, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 8
Ranger 1 - Exotic weapon prof (bastard sword)
Ranger 2 - TWF
Ftr 3 - Power Attack, Weapon Focus (basard sword)
Ftr 4 - Oversized 2-weapon fighting
Ftr 5 - Nada
Ftr 6 - Improved 2-weapon Fighting, Weapon Specialization (bastard sword)
Exotic Weapon Master 7 - Uncanny strike
Ftr 8 - Nada
Ftr 9 - Improved Critical (bastard sword), Cleave
Bbn 10 (the XP penalty is actually pretty nice around this point)
Bbn 11

I'm not certain what's required for Oversized 2-weapon Fighting (no reference handy at work), but the idea is that once you get the EWM's Uncanny Strike, you can Power Attack 2 damage for 1 penalty to hit, just as though you were using a 2-handed weapon. Thus, with 2 of them in your hands, you're basically getting x4 to damage for 1 penalty to hit.

Assuming you put the bumps into STR and get a pair of gauntlets of ogre power (also assuming a pair of +1 or MW weapons), by 8th level, you attack with +14/14/9/9 for 1d10+9 and 1d10+6. Power Attack for 2 gains you +12/12/7/7 for 1d10+13 and 1d10+10 or an avg of 68 hit points damage (if you hit with all attacks).

By comparison, a greatsword fighter with the same stats (and no rage) will attack for 16/11 at 2d6+12, power attacking to the same bonuses +12/7 to hit) = PA of 4, and damage comes out to 2d6+20 or 54 hit points of damage if both swings hit.

Elemental enhancements start to add up more quickly for the 2-weapon fighter (both in how much you need to spend and in how effective they are), and so do certain pieces of equipment such as Armbands of Might (which become, literally, twice as effective if a 2-weapon fighter power attacks for 2).

The cost, of course, is that the 2-weapon build is more feat-intensive.
clik_ml
07-27-06, 02:38 PM The uncanny strike ability from ExoticWM allows you to wield a one-handed exotic weapon in two-hands to get 2x strength mod to damage. That can't really work with two-weapon fighting unless you have four arms.

Elemental damage is alright for bonus damage, it starts to get expensive and doesn't hurt a lot of outsiders who get resistance or immunity to pretty much everything. Still, sneak attack damage fails on even more opponents than that. Sacred/Holy damage makes for good TWFing too.

I dunno what kind of enemies are common in Living Eberron stuff but if tis Undead or Constructs then one could consider being a rogue/caster (divine or arcane respectively) TWFer with either the Razing Strike feat, or the swift level 1 spells that do about the same thing. That will let you do some harm to one or the other depending upon their prevalence.

3 Rog/2 Clr/8 Shadowbane Stalker or somesuch could be a decent TWF-rogue who can deal o-kay sneak attack and be able to harm undead with said sneak attack. I dunno what sort of prestige classes are accessible in the Xendrik/MoH stuff. In LG the Shadowbane Stalker is limited.

An arcane striking, TWFing, arcane trickster will likely deal boatloads of damage if you can get past their fragility (dwarf with 16 or 18 con and improved toughness is a start).
Japangirl
07-27-06, 03:34 PM I have a blender rogue who does lots of damage TWF, and one level of (forced) sorceror for golem strike, and Invisible Blade. She's a halfling. I'm one mod from 13, so it's what I am until that point.

Str 10, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 10. Two bumps into Dex and gloves +2 for a 22 Dex, and an inherent bump and one level bump into Con for a 16. I have a 28 AC, which is decent. +1 mithril chain shirt of moderate fortification, +1 animated mithril heavy shield, ring of deflection +2, and ioun stone of AC +1.

Me now:
Rog 1- TWF, 1d6 sneak
Rog 2- Evasion
Rog 3- Weapon Finesse, 2d6 sneak
Rog 4- Uncanny Dodge
Ftr 1 (5)- Weapon Focus (dagger)
Ftr 2 (6)- Point Blank Shot, Far Shot
Inv 1 (7)- Unfettered defense (int to AC when wearing no armor), 1d6 dagger sneak
Inv 2 (8)- Bleeding wound
Inv 3 (9)- Imp. TWF, Uncanny Feint (move action), 2d6 dagger sneak
Inv 4 (10)- Feint Mastery (take 10 all feint checks)
Inv 5 (11)- Uncanny Feint (free action), 3d6 dagger sneak
Rog 5 (12)- Staggering Strike, 3d6 sneak (6d6 dagger)
Sor 1 (13)- will save, golem strike, insightful feint, parrot familiar
Rog 6 (14)- nada
Rog 7 (15)- Quick Draw, 4d6 sneak (7d6 dagger)
Retire into Dread Pirate, because it's funny.

This build wastes Point Blank and Far Shot, but they are requirements to get into Invisible Blade. I use them occasionally to throw a dagger at a flat-footed opponent, and with Quick Draw it'll be better. While I do have the usual problems with non-sneak attackable things, golem strike will help a lot. Also, I have a sacred weapon and a wounding weapon, with plans to add wounding to the sacred one and holy to the wounding one. A +1 sacred wounding dagger in one hand, and a +1 holy wounding dagger in the other, makes for very sad sneak attackable things (cough *demons* cough). I could also get a ring of spell storing and have a cleric cast Grave Strike into it three times . . .
Reylance
07-27-06, 05:11 PM A specific powerful TWF build is the dwarf Ranger/Deepwarden wielding two dwarven waraxes. It's perhaps the only build that both has a high AC and can use Dex as a dump stat.

Dwarf Rgr3/Bbn2/Deepwarden2, all levels in Ranger thereafter.
LG stat purchase: S 15 D 10 C 18 I 10 W 14 C 6

Feats include Power Attack, Oversize TWF, Extra Rage, Reckless Rage. You use the ranger levels to get two-weapon fighting. Once you hit 2nd level deepwarden, your AC shoots up. You can use blades of fire and pearls of power to frequently get 1d8 extra damage on each swing.

Before 7th level, you rely on your hit points to save you and pray. I recommend breastplate and shield until then.

At 15th level, you have 6 attacks (7 with haste), full BAB, and can Power Attack squishy foes.
trollbill
07-27-06, 05:24 PM Me now:
Rog 1- Weapon Finesse, 1d6 sneak
Rog 2- Evasion
Rog 3- TWF, 2d6 sneak
.....

You do realize a Rogue cannot take Weapon Finesse at first level because the prerequisit is a +1 BAB, right?
Japangirl
07-27-06, 05:31 PM You do realize a Rogue cannot take Weapon Finesse at first level because the prerequisit is a +1 BAB, right?

I switched the first two feats on the list. TWF at first, Weapon Finesse at third. My mistake. It's been awhile since I laid the build out. Edited on the main post.
trollbill
07-27-06, 05:37 PM I switched the first two feats on the list. TWF at first, Weapon Finesse at third. My mistake. It's been awhile since I laid the build out. Edited on the main post.

Wondered about that. Though I must admit Weapon Finesse practically screams Rogue as a Feat, so you have to wonder about the limitation.
Necrochaos
07-27-06, 05:43 PM Hmm...this is looking more and more difficult to come up with an effective build that will do damage and against creatures with immunities and damage to keep up with the fighter.

Maybe I change my mind and just go with the two hander. Was just looking to try something different, but I don't want to be behind the curve.

And the race I'm playing is the Skarn from Magic of Incarnum for Xendrik. I was going to try out the TWF build there, but I think I'll go with the two hander instead.
Paul H
07-27-06, 08:12 PM Hi

Grey Elf Swashbuckler/Conjurer? (CW Pg 11)

St 12 De 16 Co 12 In 18 Wi 8 Ch 8

1) Swashbuckler, Wpn Finesse: TWF
2) Swash. Grace (+1 reflex)
3) Swash. Insightful Strike: Wpn Focus Rapier
4) Conjurer, Scribe Scroll: (Take Blades of Fire Spell, SpC Pg 31 or Critical Strike SpC Pg 56), Dex bump
5) Swash
6) Swash. Dodge Bonus +1: (Any Feat)

By 3rd you're doing D6+5 dam each attack. (Plus wpn enhancements).
At 4th you're either dealing extra D8 fire, or doubling threat range of weapons plus extra D6 sneak.
The spells are 'Swift' spells, so no AoO.

Cheers
Paul H
Japangirl
07-28-06, 02:04 AM Swift spells also means no spell failure from armor, which is nice if you want to be mainly swashbuckler.
Iswald
07-28-06, 04:16 AM Swift spells also means no spell failure from armor, which is nice if you want to be mainly swashbuckler.

Why would you think this? It seems like even swift or immediate arcane spells with somatic components cast in armor would have a failure chance.
Paul H
07-28-06, 10:30 AM Hi

I concur - swift spells don't ignore somantic aspect.
But both Blades of Fire & Critical Strike only have (V)erbal components.
Also good because you haven't spare hand free with TWF!
(Debate mute).

Cheers
Paul H
Reylance
07-28-06, 01:36 PM Swift spells do not provoke, but as far as I can see in the rules, follow all other spellcasting rules, including needing to use the components.
Japangirl
07-28-06, 03:25 PM Swift spells are free actions, and they almost never have anything but verbal components because of how fast they cast. If you can find one with somatic components, I stand corrected. But I don't think any do, and I know most don't.
Reylance
07-31-06, 04:33 PM Swift spells are free actions, and they almost never have anything but verbal components because of how fast they cast. If you can find one with somatic components, I stand corrected. But I don't think any do, and I know most don't.

The famous banned Wraithstrike is a swift action spell with a somatic component. Plus, any spell you quicken continues to require its verbal, somatic, material, and focus components.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Necrochaos 07-26-06, 08:53 PM	I'm trying out some possible LG characters in MOH and Xendrik. I'm interested in a TWF build so I figure I start with ranger for the free feats and stack in some fighter with it. Any idea on a possible build with feats? The build needs to be non-human, so I can change the race without trying to figure out what to do with the feat. I've seen it lead into Dervish, but I wonder if that is the best lead. What about the Tempest PrC?
clik_ml 07-27-06, 12:21 AM	TWF only shines when you get to add bonus damage. Be it by adding dex to damage via Champ of Corellon (a very late game bonus), or just a hefty bag full of buffs from spellcasting. The easiest way to get bonus damage is the ubiquituous sneak attack damage. It doesn't work on everything, but when it works, it really works. TWFing makes more sense for rogues than pretty much for anyone else. It takes a lot of bonus damage for it not to be worth it to simply wield a big weapon two-handed (which intrinsically does more damage, and adds much more power attack to damage to boot). So the first question for your TWFer is, are you comfortable dealing out many dice of sneak attack damage as your raison d'etre? Follow-up question is, if so do you mind using daggers? Tempest is probably not any good for what you're wanting. Since it is probably not any good period. Dervish... meh. It can be used. I'm not wild about it, but it certainly isn't horrible.
Necrochaos 07-27-06, 06:50 AM	Daggers? I don't need no stinking daggers! I don't care what weapon I use. I didn't realize that Rogue was the TWF class. I never realized the sneak attack damage would be so useful. Does the TWF suck when you fight constructs undead and such? I read in another TWF to stay away from dodge and mobility. I'm going to have to wear light armor for the most part. And I'm going to be upfront to do all of this. How do I keep my AC to high as my con probably won't come close to being the barbarian?
kenobi65 07-27-06, 10:40 AM	As clik_ml notes, TWF gets left in the dust by a two-handed weapon when it comes to damage output (esp. once you factor in Power Attack). Though it takes a feat to use proficiently, IMO the best weapon for TWF is the two-bladed sword (if you can stand looking like Darth Maul). It lets you do a d8 of damage with the off hand (no other weapon that qualifies as "light" is above a d6), and lets you get the benefits of weapon-specific feats (Weapon Focus, Improved Critical) on both hands.
Lomiat 07-27-06, 01:07 PM	Wood-elf Str 18, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 8 Ranger 1 - Exotic weapon prof (bastard sword) Ranger 2 - TWF Ftr 3 - Power Attack, Weapon Focus (basard sword) Ftr 4 - Oversized 2-weapon fighting Ftr 5 - Nada Ftr 6 - Improved 2-weapon Fighting, Weapon Specialization (bastard sword) Exotic Weapon Master 7 - Uncanny strike Ftr 8 - Nada Ftr 9 - Improved Critical (bastard sword), Cleave Bbn 10 (the XP penalty is actually pretty nice around this point) Bbn 11 I'm not certain what's required for Oversized 2-weapon Fighting (no reference handy at work), but the idea is that once you get the EWM's Uncanny Strike, you can Power Attack 2 damage for 1 penalty to hit, just as though you were using a 2-handed weapon. Thus, with 2 of them in your hands, you're basically getting x4 to damage for 1 penalty to hit. Assuming you put the bumps into STR and get a pair of gauntlets of ogre power (also assuming a pair of +1 or MW weapons), by 8th level, you attack with +14/14/9/9 for 1d10+9 and 1d10+6. Power Attack for 2 gains you +12/12/7/7 for 1d10+13 and 1d10+10 or an avg of 68 hit points damage (if you hit with all attacks). By comparison, a greatsword fighter with the same stats (and no rage) will attack for 16/11 at 2d6+12, power attacking to the same bonuses +12/7 to hit) = PA of 4, and damage comes out to 2d6+20 or 54 hit points of damage if both swings hit. Elemental enhancements start to add up more quickly for the 2-weapon fighter (both in how much you need to spend and in how effective they are), and so do certain pieces of equipment such as Armbands of Might (which become, literally, twice as effective if a 2-weapon fighter power attacks for 2). The cost, of course, is that the 2-weapon build is more feat-intensive.
clik_ml 07-27-06, 02:38 PM	The uncanny strike ability from ExoticWM allows you to wield a one-handed exotic weapon in two-hands to get 2x strength mod to damage. That can't really work with two-weapon fighting unless you have four arms. Elemental damage is alright for bonus damage, it starts to get expensive and doesn't hurt a lot of outsiders who get resistance or immunity to pretty much everything. Still, sneak attack damage fails on even more opponents than that. Sacred/Holy damage makes for good TWFing too. I dunno what kind of enemies are common in Living Eberron stuff but if tis Undead or Constructs then one could consider being a rogue/caster (divine or arcane respectively) TWFer with either the Razing Strike feat, or the swift level 1 spells that do about the same thing. That will let you do some harm to one or the other depending upon their prevalence. 3 Rog/2 Clr/8 Shadowbane Stalker or somesuch could be a decent TWF-rogue who can deal o-kay sneak attack and be able to harm undead with said sneak attack. I dunno what sort of prestige classes are accessible in the Xendrik/MoH stuff. In LG the Shadowbane Stalker is limited. An arcane striking, TWFing, arcane trickster will likely deal boatloads of damage if you can get past their fragility (dwarf with 16 or 18 con and improved toughness is a start).
Japangirl 07-27-06, 03:34 PM	I have a blender rogue who does lots of damage TWF, and one level of (forced) sorceror for golem strike, and Invisible Blade. She's a halfling. I'm one mod from 13, so it's what I am until that point. Str 10, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 10. Two bumps into Dex and gloves +2 for a 22 Dex, and an inherent bump and one level bump into Con for a 16. I have a 28 AC, which is decent. +1 mithril chain shirt of moderate fortification, +1 animated mithril heavy shield, ring of deflection +2, and ioun stone of AC +1. Me now: Rog 1- TWF, 1d6 sneak Rog 2- Evasion Rog 3- Weapon Finesse, 2d6 sneak Rog 4- Uncanny Dodge Ftr 1 (5)- Weapon Focus (dagger) Ftr 2 (6)- Point Blank Shot, Far Shot Inv 1 (7)- Unfettered defense (int to AC when wearing no armor), 1d6 dagger sneak Inv 2 (8)- Bleeding wound Inv 3 (9)- Imp. TWF, Uncanny Feint (move action), 2d6 dagger sneak Inv 4 (10)- Feint Mastery (take 10 all feint checks) Inv 5 (11)- Uncanny Feint (free action), 3d6 dagger sneak Rog 5 (12)- Staggering Strike, 3d6 sneak (6d6 dagger) Sor 1 (13)- will save, golem strike, insightful feint, parrot familiar Rog 6 (14)- nada Rog 7 (15)- Quick Draw, 4d6 sneak (7d6 dagger) Retire into Dread Pirate, because it's funny. This build wastes Point Blank and Far Shot, but they are requirements to get into Invisible Blade. I use them occasionally to throw a dagger at a flat-footed opponent, and with Quick Draw it'll be better. While I do have the usual problems with non-sneak attackable things, golem strike will help a lot. Also, I have a sacred weapon and a wounding weapon, with plans to add wounding to the sacred one and holy to the wounding one. A +1 sacred wounding dagger in one hand, and a +1 holy wounding dagger in the other, makes for very sad sneak attackable things (cough demons cough). I could also get a ring of spell storing and have a cleric cast Grave Strike into it three times . . .
Reylance 07-27-06, 05:11 PM	A specific powerful TWF build is the dwarf Ranger/Deepwarden wielding two dwarven waraxes. It's perhaps the only build that both has a high AC and can use Dex as a dump stat. Dwarf Rgr3/Bbn2/Deepwarden2, all levels in Ranger thereafter. LG stat purchase: S 15 D 10 C 18 I 10 W 14 C 6 Feats include Power Attack, Oversize TWF, Extra Rage, Reckless Rage. You use the ranger levels to get two-weapon fighting. Once you hit 2nd level deepwarden, your AC shoots up. You can use blades of fire and pearls of power to frequently get 1d8 extra damage on each swing. Before 7th level, you rely on your hit points to save you and pray. I recommend breastplate and shield until then. At 15th level, you have 6 attacks (7 with haste), full BAB, and can Power Attack squishy foes.
trollbill 07-27-06, 05:24 PM	Me now: Rog 1- Weapon Finesse, 1d6 sneak Rog 2- Evasion Rog 3- TWF, 2d6 sneak ..... You do realize a Rogue cannot take Weapon Finesse at first level because the prerequisit is a +1 BAB, right?
Japangirl 07-27-06, 05:31 PM	You do realize a Rogue cannot take Weapon Finesse at first level because the prerequisit is a +1 BAB, right? I switched the first two feats on the list. TWF at first, Weapon Finesse at third. My mistake. It's been awhile since I laid the build out. Edited on the main post.
trollbill 07-27-06, 05:37 PM	I switched the first two feats on the list. TWF at first, Weapon Finesse at third. My mistake. It's been awhile since I laid the build out. Edited on the main post. Wondered about that. Though I must admit Weapon Finesse practically screams Rogue as a Feat, so you have to wonder about the limitation.
Necrochaos 07-27-06, 05:43 PM	Hmm...this is looking more and more difficult to come up with an effective build that will do damage and against creatures with immunities and damage to keep up with the fighter. Maybe I change my mind and just go with the two hander. Was just looking to try something different, but I don't want to be behind the curve. And the race I'm playing is the Skarn from Magic of Incarnum for Xendrik. I was going to try out the TWF build there, but I think I'll go with the two hander instead.
Paul H 07-27-06, 08:12 PM	Hi Grey Elf Swashbuckler/Conjurer? (CW Pg 11) St 12 De 16 Co 12 In 18 Wi 8 Ch 8 1) Swashbuckler, Wpn Finesse: TWF 2) Swash. Grace (+1 reflex) 3) Swash. Insightful Strike: Wpn Focus Rapier 4) Conjurer, Scribe Scroll: (Take Blades of Fire Spell, SpC Pg 31 or Critical Strike SpC Pg 56), Dex bump 5) Swash 6) Swash. Dodge Bonus +1: (Any Feat) By 3rd you're doing D6+5 dam each attack. (Plus wpn enhancements). At 4th you're either dealing extra D8 fire, or doubling threat range of weapons plus extra D6 sneak. The spells are 'Swift' spells, so no AoO. Cheers Paul H
Japangirl 07-28-06, 02:04 AM	Swift spells also means no spell failure from armor, which is nice if you want to be mainly swashbuckler.
Iswald 07-28-06, 04:16 AM	Swift spells also means no spell failure from armor, which is nice if you want to be mainly swashbuckler. Why would you think this? It seems like even swift or immediate arcane spells with somatic components cast in armor would have a failure chance.
Paul H 07-28-06, 10:30 AM	Hi I concur - swift spells don't ignore somantic aspect. But both Blades of Fire & Critical Strike only have (V)erbal components. Also good because you haven't spare hand free with TWF! (Debate mute). Cheers Paul H
Reylance 07-28-06, 01:36 PM	Swift spells do not provoke, but as far as I can see in the rules, follow all other spellcasting rules, including needing to use the components.
Japangirl 07-28-06, 03:25 PM	Swift spells are free actions, and they almost never have anything but verbal components because of how fast they cast. If you can find one with somatic components, I stand corrected. But I don't think any do, and I know most don't.
Reylance 07-31-06, 04:33 PM	Swift spells are free actions, and they almost never have anything but verbal components because of how fast they cast. If you can find one with somatic components, I stand corrected. But I don't think any do, and I know most don't. The famous banned Wraithstrike is a swift action spell with a somatic component. Plus, any spell you quicken continues to require its verbal, somatic, material, and focus components.