TWF builds ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

TWF builds ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Melik
05-25-06, 07:22 AM I just recently decided to try and dive back in to the RPGA world again, and I am trying to construct my initial character. I want to try a TWF build since I have not been able to do effective ones in the past and have a better idea of what they require to be good now. I am debating over a Dwarf Fighter/Rogue/Barb/Tempest using D. Waraxe of course, or a Wood Elf Ranger/Rogue/Barbarian/Tempest up in the air what weapon. Thanks in advance for anyhelp/advice
Cynric
05-25-06, 07:29 AM If you want a twf I would suggest the wood elf route but take a level of scout and then wildrunner. The pay off is that when you charge, you get the pounce ability so you can attack with both weapons and you get the +1d6 skirmish damage on both provided you move the required ten feet. This is reasonably likely to happen quite a bit as you should have a decent dex for your twf feats.
kjenks
05-25-06, 09:54 AM The Main 3.5e FAQ specifically lets you attack with greatsword and armor spikes. If you use Power Attack, you get an attack penalty on both weapons but a 2x damage bonus on only the greatsword (and no damage bonus on the armor spikes).

So change armor spikes to improved unarmed strike (mechanically, they're about the same). Take two levels of Monk to get a decent unarmed strike (and evasion and a bonus feat at level 2), then TWF with a greatsword and unarmed strike. Power Attack specifically works with unarmed strike, giving a 1x damage bonus.

Against most creatures, most of the time, you're better off just swinging the greatsword and not using TWF because the -2 attack penalty would be better turned into 4 extra points of damage via Power Attack. But when you get a big enough attack bonus, you can use Power Attack and TWF for a whole pile of damage.

But how to get a big attack bonus?

A bard/warchanter cohort will do nicely. Inspire Recklessness gives you a big bonus (up to your BAB) on all attack rolls, subtracting that same number from your armor class. And, hey, he's a bard, too, so he do all of that nifty bard stuff.

If you want to avoid a cohort or if you usually play at full tables, a pounce build will get you a full attack at the end of a charge, and with Shock Trooper/Heedless Charge, you get your full BAB, even when you Power Attack all the way.
clik_ml
05-25-06, 12:11 PM This seems like a lot of work when all you need to make TWF viable is to add tons of bonus damage that comes in specially marked cereal boxes known as sneak attack.

Tempest isn't worth much in any economy, and I'd strongly suggest against it. It is a 5 level prestige class whose "big deal" is getting one extra attack when spring attacking. Bah humbug. Further insult is heaped upon the Tempest if PHBII becomes available with a single feat that essentially will do the same thing as 5 wasted class levels.

The wildrunner's pounce ability is very nice, but...
* the earliest you get it is at level 11,
* you get to do it just once per combat
* it doesn't really help TWF, so much as TWF helps it once per combat.

One alternative to those 6 levels of wildrunner is 3d6 more sneak attack on each attack. That's about 10 more damage per hit, which I think is considerable.

Wood Elf
15 Rog

18
16
13
10
8
8

Level 1 feat- TWF

I like keeping things simple, so there ya go.
Things I suggest: Imp TWF, Imp Tough, Imp Init
Things I urge against:Dodge,Mobility,Spring Attack
Lomiat
05-26-06, 12:49 PM Sneak attack works in about 30% of the mods I've played. After that, things are: a) immune to critical hits, b) protected by concealment bonuses, c) starting with a higher Init bonus than you, d) barbarians or rogues with improved uncanny dodge, or e) in positions which you can't flank.

Tempest's main thing is NOT the ability to hit with both weapons on a spring attack. The fact that spring attack is part of the requisite build is actually quite irritating. Tempest's main benefits are: a) the ability to transfer all feats associated with the weapon in your primary hand to the light weapon in your secondary hand (double your weapon focus/specialization/improved crit feats), and b) the elimination of all penalties to hit due to fighting with 2 weapons.

A Tempest who takes the oversized two-weapon fighting feat can effectively swing two bastard swords at the same attack bonus as if he was fighting with a single bastard sword. A dip in the Exotic Weapon Master class for Uncanny Blow allows the character to apply the standard 2 pts damage/1 pt power attack to both weapons.

Possible build:
Wood-elf Rgr2/Ftr6/Exo1/Tem5
Str 18, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 8
Rgr 1 - Track, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword)
Rgr 2 - 2-weapon Fighting
Ftr 3 - Power Attack, Weapon Focus (bastard sword)
Ftr 4 - Dodge
Ftr 5 -
Ftr 6 - Weapon Specialization (bastard sword), Improved 2-weapon Fighting
Exo 7 - Uncanny Blow
Ftr 8 -
Ftr 9 - Mobility, Spring Attack
Tem 10 - tempest defense +1 (+1 unnamed to AC when fighting 2-weapons)
Tem 11 - Ambidexterity (reduces penalty for 2-weapon fighting to -1)
Tem 12 - Improved Critical (bastard sword), temp defense +2, weapon versatility
Tem 13 - Ambidexterity (NO penalty for 2-weapon fighting)
Tem 14 - Temp defense +3, 2 weapon spring attack (blah)
Tem 15 - Greater Two-weapon Fighting
clik_ml
05-26-06, 01:54 PM Only 30%? Dizzamn! My experience has been been about the reverse. Maybe 20% where it didn't work (i.e. most mods had 1 or less combats where it didn't matter). Maybe our local enemies run fairly different. If you're in a construct-heavy region, or undead central, then adjustments to the build are necessary but not terribly bothersome, and may knock it down to where your experences become closer to mine.

Pssst, that's mean making him take 6 levels of Tempest when the class is 5 levels long. :-)

If the 15 rogue becomes a 13 Rogue/1 Ftr/1 Monk, you can easily qualify for Imp Unarmed Attack+Ascetic Rogue, and be using the Greatsword/Monk Unarmed TWF cheese too.
Lomiat
05-26-06, 04:59 PM Pssst, that's mean making him take 6 levels of Tempest when the class is 5 levels long. :-)

Well... uh... yeah. It's for slow learners. Or it's so good you just gotta stay with it. Or... Might have been an oversight.

Might as well take Barbarian at the end. What else to do at 15th level, right? Dip 1 level into a base class. Sounds about right.

Might be a few undead in these parts... Also, there's been the issue of 60% or more of the fights in which my characters have recently participated at APLs 8+ which end in 1 round or less. This does mean that unless you have a way of taking a full-attack on the first round (after moving), you're generally hosed. Lots of charging, raging stuff going on.

(Plus access to Ray of Stupidity and Quickened Ray of Stupidity...)
(This is my 400+ HP Dire Animal.)
(This is my unconscious 400+ HP Dire Animal coupe de grace with Vampiric Touch toy.)
Iswald
05-30-06, 08:27 AM A dip in the Exotic Weapon Master class for Uncanny Blow allows the character to apply the standard 2 pts damage/1 pt power attack to both weapons.

This has been debated quite often in the past, just don't expect it to work at all tables.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Melik 05-25-06, 07:22 AM	I just recently decided to try and dive back in to the RPGA world again, and I am trying to construct my initial character. I want to try a TWF build since I have not been able to do effective ones in the past and have a better idea of what they require to be good now. I am debating over a Dwarf Fighter/Rogue/Barb/Tempest using D. Waraxe of course, or a Wood Elf Ranger/Rogue/Barbarian/Tempest up in the air what weapon. Thanks in advance for anyhelp/advice
Cynric 05-25-06, 07:29 AM	If you want a twf I would suggest the wood elf route but take a level of scout and then wildrunner. The pay off is that when you charge, you get the pounce ability so you can attack with both weapons and you get the +1d6 skirmish damage on both provided you move the required ten feet. This is reasonably likely to happen quite a bit as you should have a decent dex for your twf feats.
kjenks 05-25-06, 09:54 AM	The Main 3.5e FAQ specifically lets you attack with greatsword and armor spikes. If you use Power Attack, you get an attack penalty on both weapons but a 2x damage bonus on only the greatsword (and no damage bonus on the armor spikes). So change armor spikes to improved unarmed strike (mechanically, they're about the same). Take two levels of Monk to get a decent unarmed strike (and evasion and a bonus feat at level 2), then TWF with a greatsword and unarmed strike. Power Attack specifically works with unarmed strike, giving a 1x damage bonus. Against most creatures, most of the time, you're better off just swinging the greatsword and not using TWF because the -2 attack penalty would be better turned into 4 extra points of damage via Power Attack. But when you get a big enough attack bonus, you can use Power Attack and TWF for a whole pile of damage. But how to get a big attack bonus? A bard/warchanter cohort will do nicely. Inspire Recklessness gives you a big bonus (up to your BAB) on all attack rolls, subtracting that same number from your armor class. And, hey, he's a bard, too, so he do all of that nifty bard stuff. If you want to avoid a cohort or if you usually play at full tables, a pounce build will get you a full attack at the end of a charge, and with Shock Trooper/Heedless Charge, you get your full BAB, even when you Power Attack all the way.
clik_ml 05-25-06, 12:11 PM	This seems like a lot of work when all you need to make TWF viable is to add tons of bonus damage that comes in specially marked cereal boxes known as sneak attack. Tempest isn't worth much in any economy, and I'd strongly suggest against it. It is a 5 level prestige class whose "big deal" is getting one extra attack when spring attacking. Bah humbug. Further insult is heaped upon the Tempest if PHBII becomes available with a single feat that essentially will do the same thing as 5 wasted class levels. The wildrunner's pounce ability is very nice, but... * the earliest you get it is at level 11, * you get to do it just once per combat * it doesn't really help TWF, so much as TWF helps it once per combat. One alternative to those 6 levels of wildrunner is 3d6 more sneak attack on each attack. That's about 10 more damage per hit, which I think is considerable. Wood Elf 15 Rog 18 16 13 10 8 8 Level 1 feat- TWF I like keeping things simple, so there ya go. Things I suggest: Imp TWF, Imp Tough, Imp Init Things I urge against:Dodge,Mobility,Spring Attack
Lomiat 05-26-06, 12:49 PM	Sneak attack works in about 30% of the mods I've played. After that, things are: a) immune to critical hits, b) protected by concealment bonuses, c) starting with a higher Init bonus than you, d) barbarians or rogues with improved uncanny dodge, or e) in positions which you can't flank. Tempest's main thing is NOT the ability to hit with both weapons on a spring attack. The fact that spring attack is part of the requisite build is actually quite irritating. Tempest's main benefits are: a) the ability to transfer all feats associated with the weapon in your primary hand to the light weapon in your secondary hand (double your weapon focus/specialization/improved crit feats), and b) the elimination of all penalties to hit due to fighting with 2 weapons. A Tempest who takes the oversized two-weapon fighting feat can effectively swing two bastard swords at the same attack bonus as if he was fighting with a single bastard sword. A dip in the Exotic Weapon Master class for Uncanny Blow allows the character to apply the standard 2 pts damage/1 pt power attack to both weapons. Possible build: Wood-elf Rgr2/Ftr6/Exo1/Tem5 Str 18, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 8 Rgr 1 - Track, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword) Rgr 2 - 2-weapon Fighting Ftr 3 - Power Attack, Weapon Focus (bastard sword) Ftr 4 - Dodge Ftr 5 - Ftr 6 - Weapon Specialization (bastard sword), Improved 2-weapon Fighting Exo 7 - Uncanny Blow Ftr 8 - Ftr 9 - Mobility, Spring Attack Tem 10 - tempest defense +1 (+1 unnamed to AC when fighting 2-weapons) Tem 11 - Ambidexterity (reduces penalty for 2-weapon fighting to -1) Tem 12 - Improved Critical (bastard sword), temp defense +2, weapon versatility Tem 13 - Ambidexterity (NO penalty for 2-weapon fighting) Tem 14 - Temp defense +3, 2 weapon spring attack (blah) Tem 15 - Greater Two-weapon Fighting
clik_ml 05-26-06, 01:54 PM	Only 30%? Dizzamn! My experience has been been about the reverse. Maybe 20% where it didn't work (i.e. most mods had 1 or less combats where it didn't matter). Maybe our local enemies run fairly different. If you're in a construct-heavy region, or undead central, then adjustments to the build are necessary but not terribly bothersome, and may knock it down to where your experences become closer to mine. Pssst, that's mean making him take 6 levels of Tempest when the class is 5 levels long. :-) If the 15 rogue becomes a 13 Rogue/1 Ftr/1 Monk, you can easily qualify for Imp Unarmed Attack+Ascetic Rogue, and be using the Greatsword/Monk Unarmed TWF cheese too.
Lomiat 05-26-06, 04:59 PM	Pssst, that's mean making him take 6 levels of Tempest when the class is 5 levels long. :-) Well... uh... yeah. It's for slow learners. Or it's so good you just gotta stay with it. Or... Might have been an oversight. Might as well take Barbarian at the end. What else to do at 15th level, right? Dip 1 level into a base class. Sounds about right. Might be a few undead in these parts... Also, there's been the issue of 60% or more of the fights in which my characters have recently participated at APLs 8+ which end in 1 round or less. This does mean that unless you have a way of taking a full-attack on the first round (after moving), you're generally hosed. Lots of charging, raging stuff going on. (Plus access to Ray of Stupidity and Quickened Ray of Stupidity...) (This is my 400+ HP Dire Animal.) (This is my unconscious 400+ HP Dire Animal coupe de grace with Vampiric Touch toy.)
Iswald 05-30-06, 08:27 AM	A dip in the Exotic Weapon Master class for Uncanny Blow allows the character to apply the standard 2 pts damage/1 pt power attack to both weapons. This has been debated quite often in the past, just don't expect it to work at all tables.