Twice the character [Archive] - Wizards Community

Twice the character [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
UMiskatonic
09-23-06, 09:56 PM Hey all,

We all know what a drag it is to be at a table where the one role you need is missing. It doesn't really matter if you need undead turned, a secret door opened, orcs tracked, or a treaty negotiated. The problem: no one in your group can do the job.

There's a solution, however. A character who can do two jobs. If everyone played such character, the chances of not having a particular job would be very close to zero.

Multiclassing is the usual way to get here, but wise selections of skills and feats can also get you through. I've thought of four examples, maybe together we can come up with more.

Ex 1) Bard. Primary role = skill monkey Secondary role = buff effects

To have an ADDITIONAL role, be prepared to be the cleric. Take CLW as one of your 1st level spells, and buy a wand when you can. Push up your UMD, and have at least one scroll for each possible condition, along with a few scrolls of lesser restoration. Bards are terrible against undead face-to-face, so have holy water, oil of bless weapon, and protection from evil scrolls to help the rest of the party deal with them.

Most of the time, you won't need to use this stuff, but when there's no cleric, the party will love you for it.

Ex 2) Trapfinding Archer (kudos to Mommy was an Orc)
Primary role = shoot arrows Secondary role = scout ahead

To have an additional role, take 1 level of either rogue or scout. First level gives you a pile of skill points, some of which can go into search and disable device. Take the tactile Trapsmith feat, buy some masterwork tools, and you're as good as a rogue of your level at bypassing traps.

Ex 3) Trap Mage (kudos to mthlr)
Primary role = arcanist Secondary role = craft items or Know checks

To have an additional role, start with a level in rogue, and then use your INT to keep those skills up. There's already some discussion of this elsewhere, but I'll add that it works really well with elves and tallfellow halflings, so you can auto-detect secret doors too.

Ex 4) Undead turning cleric
Primary role = cleric Secondary role = turn undead

To have an additional role, don't dump your intelligence. Throw your skill points into Diplomacy and Speak Language and Sense Motive, and you'll be great with NPC's. RIch upkeep can help here, along with a cloak of CHA or a circlet of persuasion. Those also help you turn undead, so it's double coupon week for magic items.
Mommy was an Orc
09-23-06, 11:45 PM While I think that those characters really do have a strong role in LG, I'd add a cautionary note.

There's a real difference between a character who is very good at 2 roles and one who is decent, but not exceptional at many. The first tends to be very useful - he's strong enough at his primary role that while he's a bit below average at that role, he's compensating with the second. The second is that dead weight mutt that everyone hates.

I think the thing to do is pick out a primary role, assume you're one level behind everyone else, then optimize that second role on that basis. Rogue works really strongly in that role, because the important thing about Rogues usually isn't Sneak Attack.

Here's some useful builds for this:
Rogue 1/Cleric 4/Divine Prankster 10. Straightforward, reasonably simple. Nearly full-blown Cleric who can easily keep trapfinding maxxed.

FIghter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Divine Oracle 2/Loremaster 5 with Still Spell. Acts as the party cork, who also happens to be a pretty good caster. In a party with lots of frontliners, drops the Full Plate for nearly full spellcasting capability.
UMiskatonic
09-24-06, 01:20 AM Maybe that last build has something I'm missing, but it seems that Still spell would let you cast in the full plate, while Silent Spell doesn't add very much.

A good cork should be able to get by in a silent environment pretty well.
clik_ml
09-24-06, 10:06 AM The spellsword wearing fullplate also seems a big mistake. I wouldn't trade +4 AC for a 1 in 10 chance of my somatic spells being useless.

For the undead turning cleric, I got a chuckle of out primary role being "cleric."

Clerics all on their own are potentially capable of many roles often just depending upon what spells they prep that day. Buffer, tank, summoner, healer, diplomancer, undead killer. The face+turning cleric however needs int and cha which diminishes other potential cleric roles (like being a tank).

5 wiz/1 rog/3 geometer/x full casting PrCs
That's my wizard trapfinder who is currently only 2 wiz. I started with a cross-class rank in disable and open locks and bought masterwork thieve's tools asap, just in case I'm without rogue support. Geometer will make finding magical traps trivial.

I didn't start with the rogue level since I didn't feel like starting out on sorcerer progression for low APLs (low levels of wizard *really* annoy me in mods with all the combats in one day and I wanted that experience past asap). Further, having the extra 4 ranks in a bunch of skills that I won't be any good at later didn't really appeal to me- I'd prefer to just pour ranks between search and disable device at level 6 when I pick up the rogue level. Hopefully with 5 levels of wizard I won't be running dry on spells that often so I can then afford the delay imposed by a rogue level.
UMiskatonic
09-24-06, 10:38 AM This one's not as revolutionary, but there is one feat that can turn a mod from 'impossible' to 'meh'. And it's not weapon focus.

That feat is Track. I play most often in Verbobonc and Highfolk, and it comes up in 1/2 of the mods.

Barbarian 2/Ftr 2/Ranger 1/PrC of your choice
Barbarian 4/Ftr 2/PrC of you choice, with Track feat

Given the choice, I think the ranger level is the better move, it boosts your saves, gives you a few more skill points, and grants Track and Favored Enemy.

Druid 16 is a fine build.

Like Clik mentioned, clerics/druids can already do a lot of jobs well. Please be ready, as a player, to adjust your role as needed.

Also, have the Track feat. Waiting five levels for scent through wildshape is a long wait, and druids are NOT feat-intensive. Besides, I've seen table variation on whether scent alone is enough, or whether you need scent and track together.
Genghis Cohen
09-24-06, 11:35 AM Just remember that Track without maxed out ranks in survival becomes marginally useful at higher levels. I have a Druid 10 with the Track feat who is +22 on survival checks to track, and sometimes that's not enough.

This one's not as revolutionary, but there is one feat that can turn a mod from 'impossible' to 'meh'. And it's not weapon focus.

That feat is Track. I play most often in Verbobonc and Highfolk, and it comes up in 1/2 of the mods.

Barbarian 2/Ftr 2/Ranger 1/PrC of your choice
Barbarian 4/Ftr 2/PrC of you choice, with Track feat

Given the choice, I think the ranger level is the better move, it boosts your saves, gives you a few more skill points, and grants Track and Favored Enemy.

Druid 16 is a fine build.

Like Clik mentioned, clerics/druids can already do a lot of jobs well. Please be ready, as a player, to adjust your role as needed.

Also, have the Track feat. Waiting five levels for scent through wildshape is a long wait, and druids are NOT feat-intensive. Besides, I've seen table variation on whether scent alone is enough, or whether you need scent and track together.
Mommy was an Orc
09-24-06, 02:10 PM The spellsword wearing fullplate also seems a big mistake. I wouldn't trade +4 AC for a 1 in 10 chance of my somatic spells being useless.

It is Still Spell - one of the oddities of Spellsword, is that a nearly pure Wiz build will get the ability to cast all their spells without fear of somatic spell failure before Spellswords do.
Mommy was an Orc
09-24-06, 02:13 PM That just seems bizarre. "I'm sorry, but because we're playing at APL 10, it rained yesterday."

Track is generally useful because you can push it, especially if you're a Rogue. When you're standing outside a door, you can use Track to see if anyone was around recently and often get the DM to use the actual Track rules as opposed to the arbitrary 'we'll make this difficult because it is APL 8 vs 2'

If there are no tracks near a trap or worse, you see the tracks suddenly end at one point, there's a good reason to ask for a circumstance bonus when looking for traps...

Just remember that Track without maxed out ranks in survival becomes marginally useful at higher levels. I have a Druid 10 with the Track feat who is +22 on survival checks to track, and sometimes that's not enough.
Genghis Cohen
09-24-06, 03:07 PM It might be bizarre, but I've failed track checks where I was well into the 30s on my roll. More than once.

That just seems bizarre. "I'm sorry, but because we're playing at APL 10, it rained yesterday."

Track is generally useful because you can push it, especially if you're a Rogue. When you're standing outside a door, you can use Track to see if anyone was around recently and often get the DM to use the actual Track rules as opposed to the arbitrary 'we'll make this difficult because it is APL 8 vs 2'

If there are no tracks near a trap or worse, you see the tracks suddenly end at one point, there's a good reason to ask for a circumstance bonus when looking for traps...
Mommy was an Orc
09-24-06, 03:33 PM But there should still be opportunities where the mod doesn't define the track roll and therefore you use the PHB rules. When the roll is plot driven and the writer seems to have decided there's a shortcut that will bypass half the mod, then the APL oddness goes into effect. When you're by a door in a dungeon, though, there should be tracks(or lack thereof)

Also, page 31 of DMG has an example of something that would require a 43 - track a goblin over hard rocks a week ago when it snowed yesterday. Once you're into the 30s and failing, I'd pull out that page and point to it. That's a task that a 20th level Ranger who has Goblnoids as his favored enemy is supposed to make.

In any case, you should see if you can pick up the Natural Survivor card - auto 20 on Survival checks including only needing a full round action to take 20 on a Track.

It might be bizarre, but I've failed track checks where I was well into the 30s on my roll. More than once.
Genghis Cohen
09-24-06, 03:38 PM Got that card. :D Your point about referencing the DMG is a great suggestion. With that card, I get a 42. 44 outdoors in a natural setting. Hopefully I can break a few mods.

But there should still be opportunities where the mod doesn't define the track roll and therefore you use the PHB rules. When the roll is plot driven and the writer seems to have decided there's a shortcut that will bypass half the mod, then the APL oddness goes into effect. When you're by a door in a dungeon, though, there should be tracks(or lack thereof)

Also, page 31 of DMG has an example of something that would require a 43 - track a goblin over hard rocks a week ago when it snowed yesterday. Once you're into the 30s and failing, I'd pull out that page and point to it. That's a task that a 20th level Ranger who has Goblnoids as his favored enemy is supposed to make.

In any case, you should see if you can pick up the Natural Survivor card - auto 20 on Survival checks including only needing a full round action to take 20 on a Track.
Paul H
09-25-06, 07:15 PM Hi

I play a 'general support' character, not exeptionally good at anything specific, but there to back up the primary spellcasters.

Oskar Thorinson is a Dwarf Cleric 3 (Boccob - Magic & Trickery), Warmage 4 (Practiced Spellcaster). His stats aren't maxed - was going Cleric, then Warmage came out & I multiclassed. (Going Mystic Theurge).

Though not a doctor - I can manage First Aid. Though not a Primary Arcane Caster, I can still cast 2nd Lvl Spells at 7th Caster Level. In my Light Armour! Occasionally I even use Wizard Scrolls as 1st Lvl Wiz. (10% Spell Failure). My Wand Lightning Bolt has helped, but running low on charges.
My Tenser's Floating Disk is also useful for carrying, loo... ahem - 'recently discovered salvageable items'! :P

To help the party I've got 2 Pearls Power (1st Lvl), Wand CLW, Wand Lightning Bolt, Bracers Quickstrike, plus unique Fey Cold Iron Shortsword that grants Wpn Finesse with that weapon only.

Unless there's a strong table I don't play up APL's - recently playing down to get games. (Once was front Line Tank since I had 2nd best BAB, best HP & AC - the other was 5th lvl Ranger at APL4)!

Cheers
Paul H
solbergb
09-26-06, 12:21 PM I tend to be like Andy.

Be good at one or two things
Be adequate at a few other things

but never, ever, sacrifice the being GOOD at the main role.

It is possible to play a good generalist. But it takes extremely strong player skills to find precisely the right underpowered spell/ability that will tip the balance in the current situation and prove as useful as a top tier role/ability. To do this well, you need a good variety of options, and you need to have the tactical vision to see which option is disproportionately useful in the current situation.

Such a generalist is, of course, GOOD at being a generalist. And probably is "adequate" at one of: corking, damage dealing, healing, skillmonkey or trapfinding. But never more than "adequate".

Note the above poster...he is only comfortable at APL or playing down with his generalist. That's fairly normal....because a generalist is essentially "playing up" when playing at APL and "at APL" when playing down at most of his best capabilities.
Evanta
09-26-06, 10:23 PM the other option is simply dunk 1 feat and take leadership. :D
kenobi65
09-27-06, 12:10 AM the other option is simply dunk 1 feat and take leadership. :D

If you primarily play at conventions or game days (which is where the "need to be able to fill a secondary function" idea really comes into play, when you don't know what mix will be at your table), Leadership probably won't help much, as you can probably expect to be sitting at a full table more often than not, and thus won't be able to bring your cohort.
solbergb
09-27-06, 12:55 AM Ah...but what I find (with my sorceress) is that she very rarely has any trouble at a table with 6 people. It takes a rare set of circumstances to make that many characters screw up, even if they're unbalanced, unless (as happened recently) we have a last second table shuffle that leaves us at APL-1 playing up instead of at APL and we run into something that shuts down most of the "good stuff" the party does, turning an EL+3 encounter into more like EL+5 for that party.

But those 4 and 5 person unbalanced tables....just go a whole lot better with a bard cohort to buff up the marginal contributors (and incidently give my main character a ton of synergy too).

Olivia pretty much always plays at random con tables, and her cohort prevented a midnight madness TPK on her very first appearance, has been responsible for four direct saves of PC's that would have died if I'd taken any other feat and has probably done more that I didn't notice, because the table was going well, and might not have without her.

The other thing about having a cohort at conventions is you can volunteer to join the weak side of the 9 person situations, giving two 5 person tables. Folks just relax a lot when you do that.

I'm not a big fan of Leadership in general, but for a character that you take solo into conventions, it can be pretty nice. You don't need it on the 6 person tables no, and can't use it, but when you need it on the 4 person tables, you often REALLY need it.
clik_ml
09-27-06, 05:49 AM Yah, Leadership seems like a feat especially useful for cons and game days. I often see people trying madly to muster a high APL table and having significant trouble (often either failing, or having multiple people take 1/2 exp). If just one of those people had a high charisma build (sorc,pal,bard,turning cleric, etc.) with Leadership then they would be able to form a table a lot more easily, and with much better meshing of levels.

If I have any charisma based-character at all (i.e. anyone who hasn't tanked it, really... only need a +6 leadership score tops to maintain the 2 level gap, and a +2 to maintain the 3 level gap), I will try to fit Leadership in there for level 9,12 or 15 just for that purpose.

Heck, my wife is planning on getting a cloak of charisma for her barbarian (8 cha, I think) at level 9, just to get a cohort. If she can wing any of the great renown, fairness and generosity, and/or special power bonuses, then she will have a fairly easy time keeping the cohort at level -2 or 3.
Lupo
09-28-06, 02:43 AM Yah, Leadership seems like a feat especially useful for cons and game days. I often see people trying madly to muster a high APL table and having significant trouble (often either failing, or having multiple people take 1/2 exp). If just one of those people had a high charisma build (sorc,pal,bard,turning cleric, etc.) with Leadership then they would be able to form a table a lot more easily, and with much better meshing of levels.

If I have any charisma based-character at all (i.e. anyone who hasn't tanked it, really... only need a +6 leadership score tops to maintain the 2 level gap, and a +2 to maintain the 3 level gap), I will try to fit Leadership in there for level 9,12 or 15 just for that purpose.

Heck, my wife is planning on getting a cloak of charisma for her barbarian (8 cha, I think) at level 9, just to get a cohort. If she can wing any of the great renown, fairness and generosity, and/or special power bonuses, then she will have a fairly easy time keeping the cohort at level -2 or 3.

leadership is best when your character gets accesss to one of the "special" cohorts, otherwise you are somehow limited by the 22-points distribution build.

22-points can get you a base of three 14s, two 10s and an 8 or a 16, two 14s and three 8s as attribute scores.

not to good but as long as you don't buy to many double or even triple cost stat points you can assemble a survivable and useful cohort.

the good side is that you get a build that doesn't face the problem of surviving the first few levels, where certain builds are very fragile or not really effective.

for a buffer i would consider a "divine metamagic [quicken]" cleric or the always (in)-famous bard.

for a battle support, either an archer or a somehow trick orientated fighter, as the 22-point-buy blocks ueber-strenght-damage-dealer anyway.

ciao

martin m.
clik_ml
09-28-06, 08:11 AM In the case of her cohort, her barbarian worships kelanen so she wants a cleric of kelanen who can help buff her up and provide much needed healing. The 22pt buy will work just fine for that purpose.

I often prefer a 22pt buy over the special cohorts, since getting to customize it is usually worth turning one 14 stat into an 8 (I generally plan to make the cohort a primary caster as they won't suffer from M.A.D.). Someday I may meet a special cohort that interests me, but I haven't yet.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
UMiskatonic 09-23-06, 09:56 PM	Hey all, We all know what a drag it is to be at a table where the one role you need is missing. It doesn't really matter if you need undead turned, a secret door opened, orcs tracked, or a treaty negotiated. The problem: no one in your group can do the job. There's a solution, however. A character who can do two jobs. If everyone played such character, the chances of not having a particular job would be very close to zero. Multiclassing is the usual way to get here, but wise selections of skills and feats can also get you through. I've thought of four examples, maybe together we can come up with more. Ex 1) Bard. Primary role = skill monkey Secondary role = buff effects To have an ADDITIONAL role, be prepared to be the cleric. Take CLW as one of your 1st level spells, and buy a wand when you can. Push up your UMD, and have at least one scroll for each possible condition, along with a few scrolls of lesser restoration. Bards are terrible against undead face-to-face, so have holy water, oil of bless weapon, and protection from evil scrolls to help the rest of the party deal with them. Most of the time, you won't need to use this stuff, but when there's no cleric, the party will love you for it. Ex 2) Trapfinding Archer (kudos to Mommy was an Orc) Primary role = shoot arrows Secondary role = scout ahead To have an additional role, take 1 level of either rogue or scout. First level gives you a pile of skill points, some of which can go into search and disable device. Take the tactile Trapsmith feat, buy some masterwork tools, and you're as good as a rogue of your level at bypassing traps. Ex 3) Trap Mage (kudos to mthlr) Primary role = arcanist Secondary role = craft items or Know checks To have an additional role, start with a level in rogue, and then use your INT to keep those skills up. There's already some discussion of this elsewhere, but I'll add that it works really well with elves and tallfellow halflings, so you can auto-detect secret doors too. Ex 4) Undead turning cleric Primary role = cleric Secondary role = turn undead To have an additional role, don't dump your intelligence. Throw your skill points into Diplomacy and Speak Language and Sense Motive, and you'll be great with NPC's. RIch upkeep can help here, along with a cloak of CHA or a circlet of persuasion. Those also help you turn undead, so it's double coupon week for magic items.
Mommy was an Orc 09-23-06, 11:45 PM	While I think that those characters really do have a strong role in LG, I'd add a cautionary note. There's a real difference between a character who is very good at 2 roles and one who is decent, but not exceptional at many. The first tends to be very useful - he's strong enough at his primary role that while he's a bit below average at that role, he's compensating with the second. The second is that dead weight mutt that everyone hates. I think the thing to do is pick out a primary role, assume you're one level behind everyone else, then optimize that second role on that basis. Rogue works really strongly in that role, because the important thing about Rogues usually isn't Sneak Attack. Here's some useful builds for this: Rogue 1/Cleric 4/Divine Prankster 10. Straightforward, reasonably simple. Nearly full-blown Cleric who can easily keep trapfinding maxxed. FIghter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Divine Oracle 2/Loremaster 5 with Still Spell. Acts as the party cork, who also happens to be a pretty good caster. In a party with lots of frontliners, drops the Full Plate for nearly full spellcasting capability.
UMiskatonic 09-24-06, 01:20 AM	Maybe that last build has something I'm missing, but it seems that Still spell would let you cast in the full plate, while Silent Spell doesn't add very much. A good cork should be able to get by in a silent environment pretty well.
clik_ml 09-24-06, 10:06 AM	The spellsword wearing fullplate also seems a big mistake. I wouldn't trade +4 AC for a 1 in 10 chance of my somatic spells being useless. For the undead turning cleric, I got a chuckle of out primary role being "cleric." Clerics all on their own are potentially capable of many roles often just depending upon what spells they prep that day. Buffer, tank, summoner, healer, diplomancer, undead killer. The face+turning cleric however needs int and cha which diminishes other potential cleric roles (like being a tank). 5 wiz/1 rog/3 geometer/x full casting PrCs That's my wizard trapfinder who is currently only 2 wiz. I started with a cross-class rank in disable and open locks and bought masterwork thieve's tools asap, just in case I'm without rogue support. Geometer will make finding magical traps trivial. I didn't start with the rogue level since I didn't feel like starting out on sorcerer progression for low APLs (low levels of wizard really annoy me in mods with all the combats in one day and I wanted that experience past asap). Further, having the extra 4 ranks in a bunch of skills that I won't be any good at later didn't really appeal to me- I'd prefer to just pour ranks between search and disable device at level 6 when I pick up the rogue level. Hopefully with 5 levels of wizard I won't be running dry on spells that often so I can then afford the delay imposed by a rogue level.
UMiskatonic 09-24-06, 10:38 AM	This one's not as revolutionary, but there is one feat that can turn a mod from 'impossible' to 'meh'. And it's not weapon focus. That feat is Track. I play most often in Verbobonc and Highfolk, and it comes up in 1/2 of the mods. Barbarian 2/Ftr 2/Ranger 1/PrC of your choice Barbarian 4/Ftr 2/PrC of you choice, with Track feat Given the choice, I think the ranger level is the better move, it boosts your saves, gives you a few more skill points, and grants Track and Favored Enemy. Druid 16 is a fine build. Like Clik mentioned, clerics/druids can already do a lot of jobs well. Please be ready, as a player, to adjust your role as needed. Also, have the Track feat. Waiting five levels for scent through wildshape is a long wait, and druids are NOT feat-intensive. Besides, I've seen table variation on whether scent alone is enough, or whether you need scent and track together.
Genghis Cohen 09-24-06, 11:35 AM	Just remember that Track without maxed out ranks in survival becomes marginally useful at higher levels. I have a Druid 10 with the Track feat who is +22 on survival checks to track, and sometimes that's not enough. This one's not as revolutionary, but there is one feat that can turn a mod from 'impossible' to 'meh'. And it's not weapon focus. That feat is Track. I play most often in Verbobonc and Highfolk, and it comes up in 1/2 of the mods. Barbarian 2/Ftr 2/Ranger 1/PrC of your choice Barbarian 4/Ftr 2/PrC of you choice, with Track feat Given the choice, I think the ranger level is the better move, it boosts your saves, gives you a few more skill points, and grants Track and Favored Enemy. Druid 16 is a fine build. Like Clik mentioned, clerics/druids can already do a lot of jobs well. Please be ready, as a player, to adjust your role as needed. Also, have the Track feat. Waiting five levels for scent through wildshape is a long wait, and druids are NOT feat-intensive. Besides, I've seen table variation on whether scent alone is enough, or whether you need scent and track together.
Mommy was an Orc 09-24-06, 02:10 PM	The spellsword wearing fullplate also seems a big mistake. I wouldn't trade +4 AC for a 1 in 10 chance of my somatic spells being useless. It is Still Spell - one of the oddities of Spellsword, is that a nearly pure Wiz build will get the ability to cast all their spells without fear of somatic spell failure before Spellswords do.
Mommy was an Orc 09-24-06, 02:13 PM	That just seems bizarre. "I'm sorry, but because we're playing at APL 10, it rained yesterday." Track is generally useful because you can push it, especially if you're a Rogue. When you're standing outside a door, you can use Track to see if anyone was around recently and often get the DM to use the actual Track rules as opposed to the arbitrary 'we'll make this difficult because it is APL 8 vs 2' If there are no tracks near a trap or worse, you see the tracks suddenly end at one point, there's a good reason to ask for a circumstance bonus when looking for traps... Just remember that Track without maxed out ranks in survival becomes marginally useful at higher levels. I have a Druid 10 with the Track feat who is +22 on survival checks to track, and sometimes that's not enough.
Genghis Cohen 09-24-06, 03:07 PM	It might be bizarre, but I've failed track checks where I was well into the 30s on my roll. More than once. That just seems bizarre. "I'm sorry, but because we're playing at APL 10, it rained yesterday." Track is generally useful because you can push it, especially if you're a Rogue. When you're standing outside a door, you can use Track to see if anyone was around recently and often get the DM to use the actual Track rules as opposed to the arbitrary 'we'll make this difficult because it is APL 8 vs 2' If there are no tracks near a trap or worse, you see the tracks suddenly end at one point, there's a good reason to ask for a circumstance bonus when looking for traps...
Mommy was an Orc 09-24-06, 03:33 PM	But there should still be opportunities where the mod doesn't define the track roll and therefore you use the PHB rules. When the roll is plot driven and the writer seems to have decided there's a shortcut that will bypass half the mod, then the APL oddness goes into effect. When you're by a door in a dungeon, though, there should be tracks(or lack thereof) Also, page 31 of DMG has an example of something that would require a 43 - track a goblin over hard rocks a week ago when it snowed yesterday. Once you're into the 30s and failing, I'd pull out that page and point to it. That's a task that a 20th level Ranger who has Goblnoids as his favored enemy is supposed to make. In any case, you should see if you can pick up the Natural Survivor card - auto 20 on Survival checks including only needing a full round action to take 20 on a Track. It might be bizarre, but I've failed track checks where I was well into the 30s on my roll. More than once.
Genghis Cohen 09-24-06, 03:38 PM	Got that card. :D Your point about referencing the DMG is a great suggestion. With that card, I get a 42. 44 outdoors in a natural setting. Hopefully I can break a few mods. But there should still be opportunities where the mod doesn't define the track roll and therefore you use the PHB rules. When the roll is plot driven and the writer seems to have decided there's a shortcut that will bypass half the mod, then the APL oddness goes into effect. When you're by a door in a dungeon, though, there should be tracks(or lack thereof) Also, page 31 of DMG has an example of something that would require a 43 - track a goblin over hard rocks a week ago when it snowed yesterday. Once you're into the 30s and failing, I'd pull out that page and point to it. That's a task that a 20th level Ranger who has Goblnoids as his favored enemy is supposed to make. In any case, you should see if you can pick up the Natural Survivor card - auto 20 on Survival checks including only needing a full round action to take 20 on a Track.
Paul H 09-25-06, 07:15 PM	Hi I play a 'general support' character, not exeptionally good at anything specific, but there to back up the primary spellcasters. Oskar Thorinson is a Dwarf Cleric 3 (Boccob - Magic & Trickery), Warmage 4 (Practiced Spellcaster). His stats aren't maxed - was going Cleric, then Warmage came out & I multiclassed. (Going Mystic Theurge). Though not a doctor - I can manage First Aid. Though not a Primary Arcane Caster, I can still cast 2nd Lvl Spells at 7th Caster Level. In my Light Armour! Occasionally I even use Wizard Scrolls as 1st Lvl Wiz. (10% Spell Failure). My Wand Lightning Bolt has helped, but running low on charges. My Tenser's Floating Disk is also useful for carrying, loo... ahem - 'recently discovered salvageable items'! :P To help the party I've got 2 Pearls Power (1st Lvl), Wand CLW, Wand Lightning Bolt, Bracers Quickstrike, plus unique Fey Cold Iron Shortsword that grants Wpn Finesse with that weapon only. Unless there's a strong table I don't play up APL's - recently playing down to get games. (Once was front Line Tank since I had 2nd best BAB, best HP & AC - the other was 5th lvl Ranger at APL4)! Cheers Paul H
solbergb 09-26-06, 12:21 PM	I tend to be like Andy. Be good at one or two things Be adequate at a few other things but never, ever, sacrifice the being GOOD at the main role. It is possible to play a good generalist. But it takes extremely strong player skills to find precisely the right underpowered spell/ability that will tip the balance in the current situation and prove as useful as a top tier role/ability. To do this well, you need a good variety of options, and you need to have the tactical vision to see which option is disproportionately useful in the current situation. Such a generalist is, of course, GOOD at being a generalist. And probably is "adequate" at one of: corking, damage dealing, healing, skillmonkey or trapfinding. But never more than "adequate". Note the above poster...he is only comfortable at APL or playing down with his generalist. That's fairly normal....because a generalist is essentially "playing up" when playing at APL and "at APL" when playing down at most of his best capabilities.
Evanta 09-26-06, 10:23 PM	the other option is simply dunk 1 feat and take leadership. :D
kenobi65 09-27-06, 12:10 AM	the other option is simply dunk 1 feat and take leadership. :D If you primarily play at conventions or game days (which is where the "need to be able to fill a secondary function" idea really comes into play, when you don't know what mix will be at your table), Leadership probably won't help much, as you can probably expect to be sitting at a full table more often than not, and thus won't be able to bring your cohort.
solbergb 09-27-06, 12:55 AM	Ah...but what I find (with my sorceress) is that she very rarely has any trouble at a table with 6 people. It takes a rare set of circumstances to make that many characters screw up, even if they're unbalanced, unless (as happened recently) we have a last second table shuffle that leaves us at APL-1 playing up instead of at APL and we run into something that shuts down most of the "good stuff" the party does, turning an EL+3 encounter into more like EL+5 for that party. But those 4 and 5 person unbalanced tables....just go a whole lot better with a bard cohort to buff up the marginal contributors (and incidently give my main character a ton of synergy too). Olivia pretty much always plays at random con tables, and her cohort prevented a midnight madness TPK on her very first appearance, has been responsible for four direct saves of PC's that would have died if I'd taken any other feat and has probably done more that I didn't notice, because the table was going well, and might not have without her. The other thing about having a cohort at conventions is you can volunteer to join the weak side of the 9 person situations, giving two 5 person tables. Folks just relax a lot when you do that. I'm not a big fan of Leadership in general, but for a character that you take solo into conventions, it can be pretty nice. You don't need it on the 6 person tables no, and can't use it, but when you need it on the 4 person tables, you often REALLY need it.
clik_ml 09-27-06, 05:49 AM	Yah, Leadership seems like a feat especially useful for cons and game days. I often see people trying madly to muster a high APL table and having significant trouble (often either failing, or having multiple people take 1/2 exp). If just one of those people had a high charisma build (sorc,pal,bard,turning cleric, etc.) with Leadership then they would be able to form a table a lot more easily, and with much better meshing of levels. If I have any charisma based-character at all (i.e. anyone who hasn't tanked it, really... only need a +6 leadership score tops to maintain the 2 level gap, and a +2 to maintain the 3 level gap), I will try to fit Leadership in there for level 9,12 or 15 just for that purpose. Heck, my wife is planning on getting a cloak of charisma for her barbarian (8 cha, I think) at level 9, just to get a cohort. If she can wing any of the great renown, fairness and generosity, and/or special power bonuses, then she will have a fairly easy time keeping the cohort at level -2 or 3.
Lupo 09-28-06, 02:43 AM	Yah, Leadership seems like a feat especially useful for cons and game days. I often see people trying madly to muster a high APL table and having significant trouble (often either failing, or having multiple people take 1/2 exp). If just one of those people had a high charisma build (sorc,pal,bard,turning cleric, etc.) with Leadership then they would be able to form a table a lot more easily, and with much better meshing of levels. If I have any charisma based-character at all (i.e. anyone who hasn't tanked it, really... only need a +6 leadership score tops to maintain the 2 level gap, and a +2 to maintain the 3 level gap), I will try to fit Leadership in there for level 9,12 or 15 just for that purpose. Heck, my wife is planning on getting a cloak of charisma for her barbarian (8 cha, I think) at level 9, just to get a cohort. If she can wing any of the great renown, fairness and generosity, and/or special power bonuses, then she will have a fairly easy time keeping the cohort at level -2 or 3. leadership is best when your character gets accesss to one of the "special" cohorts, otherwise you are somehow limited by the 22-points distribution build. 22-points can get you a base of three 14s, two 10s and an 8 or a 16, two 14s and three 8s as attribute scores. not to good but as long as you don't buy to many double or even triple cost stat points you can assemble a survivable and useful cohort. the good side is that you get a build that doesn't face the problem of surviving the first few levels, where certain builds are very fragile or not really effective. for a buffer i would consider a "divine metamagic [quicken]" cleric or the always (in)-famous bard. for a battle support, either an archer or a somehow trick orientated fighter, as the 22-point-buy blocks ueber-strenght-damage-dealer anyway. ciao martin m.
clik_ml 09-28-06, 08:11 AM	In the case of her cohort, her barbarian worships kelanen so she wants a cleric of kelanen who can help buff her up and provide much needed healing. The 22pt buy will work just fine for that purpose. I often prefer a 22pt buy over the special cohorts, since getting to customize it is usually worth turning one 14 stat into an 8 (I generally plan to make the cohort a primary caster as they won't suffer from M.A.D.). Someday I may meet a special cohort that interests me, but I haven't yet.