Two weapon fighting [Archive] - Wizards Community

Two weapon fighting [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jeryl
05-05-04, 01:16 AM Can you use the two weapon fighting feat unarmed to fight with both hands (and get an extra attack) ?

Can you use a flury of blows with a monk weapon in each hand to get an extra attack ?
lutherreed
05-05-04, 08:29 AM Two-Weapon Fighting
Benefits: When wielding a double weapon or two weapons (not including natural weapons or unarmed strikes)...

and flurry of blows is an extrordinary ability for Monks.
lutherreed
05-05-04, 09:01 AM oops, I quoted the two-weapon defense feat :embarrass

But Two-Weapon Fighting does say something similar.
Nidome
05-05-04, 11:57 AM Originally posted by Jeryl
Can you use the two weapon fighting feat unarmed to fight with both hands (and get an extra attack) ?

Can you use a flury of blows with a monk weapon in each hand to get an extra attack ?

"TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING [GENERAL]
You can fight with a weapon in each hand. You can make one extra attack each round with the second weapon."

An unarmed attack is a light weapon, so yes you can make an off-hand attack with it in addition to your regular attacks.

"When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. "

Flurry of Blows gives a monk an extra attack on a full attack. The number of weapons held by the monk does not affect this. Any given attack made as part of the flurry must meet the requirements of the quoted paragraph above.
Also note: ".....a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full."
So with a weapon in each hand you still have the unarmed strike option.

Nick.
lutherreed
05-05-04, 07:31 PM An unarmed attack is not a light weapon.

unarmed attack: A melee attack made with no weapon in hand.
Jeryl
05-05-04, 10:51 PM Ok for unarmed but:

Two Weapon Fighting gives an extra attack when you fight with two weapons (with a -2 penalty)

Flurry of blows gives a monk an extra attack (with a -2 penalty) with monk weapons.

Could a Monk then make a flurry of blows with two monk weapons and get 3 attacks with a -4 penalty ?

Where did you see The number of weapons held by the monk does not affect this. ?
Nidome
05-06-04, 06:38 AM Originally posted by lutherreed
An unarmed attack is not a light weapon.

unarmed attack: A melee attack made with no weapon in hand.

It is clearly stated in the rules:

"Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon’s size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.
Light: A light weapon is easier to use in one’s off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and it can be used while grappling. A light weapon is used in one hand. Add the wielder’s Strength bonus (if any) to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or one-half the wielder’s Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder’s primary hand only.
An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.
One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his or her Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls.
Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon."

Please note the section that is underlined.

Nick.
kenobi65
05-06-04, 11:06 AM Originally posted by Jeryl
Could a Monk then make a flurry of blows with two monk weapons and get 3 attacks with a -4 penalty ?

No, because Flurry of Blows is a full-round action, as is attacking with "Two Weapons."

In other words, you can do one or the other, but not both.
Nidome
05-06-04, 11:24 AM Originally posted by Jeryl
Ok for unarmed but:

Two Weapon Fighting gives an extra attack when you fight with two weapons (with a -2 penalty)

Flurry of blows gives a monk an extra attack (with a -2 penalty) with monk weapons.

Could a Monk then make a flurry of blows with two monk weapons and get 3 attacks with a -4 penalty ?

I'm afraid not. There are two main reasons for this.....
The first is that they are both full round actions.
The second is that a Monk doesn't have an off-hand when making a flurry attack, so therefore cannot make an off-hand attack.

Where did you see
quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------
The number of weapons held by the monk does not affect this.
------------------------------------------------------------------
?

From my previous rules quote: ".....She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired."

There is no limitation given on how many monk weapons you may use during a flurry. I suppose technically if you have quick draw you could use a different monk weapon for each attack by dropping a weapon after each attack and quick drawing a new one.
In fact you could hold a non monk weapon in your hand(s) and still flurry provided you didn't use that weapon to attack with during the flurry.

Nick.
Timlagor
06-26-04, 10:26 AM Nowhere in the text for Flurry of blows does it say either
- that it is a full round action
- that you have no off hand while doing so.

What it says is that you can take an extra attack at the full attack bonus with any weapon (including unarmed even if holding weapons) and the example makes it clear that you can use both ends of a double weapon (and by extension presumably a different off-hand weapon) *as a flurry attack* without taking an extra penalty.
This could be interpreted as implying that you are already attaking with 2 weapons but it does not say so. It is certainly not celar how this would interact with Improved Two Weapon Fighting -i suspect the simple answer is that Flurry is essentially an alternative to the Two Weapon fighting feats.

Fighting with two weapons says it gives you an extra attack with the relevant penalty (depending on what you are wielding and feats).

Elsewhere (combat section of PHB) it says that you must be taking a full round attack action to take more than one attack in a round.

None of that says that you can't stack a Flurry and 2 weapon fighting.

OTOH there might well be a ruling somewhere that does say you can't and it would make sense -I just can't find it in the rules.
kenobi65
06-27-04, 12:43 AM Originally posted by Timlagor
Nowhere in the text for Flurry of blows does it say either
- that it is a full round action

The line in the Combat section you refer to pretty much lays it out.

"Full Attack

"If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon (see Two-Weapon Fighting under Special Attacks, page 160), or for some special reason (such as a feat or a magic item), you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks."

Flurry of Blows would count as "some special reason," and there's nothing in the description of Flurry of Blows to indicate that it's exempt from this rule.
kenobi65
06-27-04, 12:46 AM Originally posted by Timlagor
What it says is that you can take an extra attack at the full attack bonus with any weapon (including unarmed even if holding weapons) and the example makes it clear that you can use both ends of a double weapon (and by extension presumably a different off-hand weapon) *as a flurry attack* without taking an extra penalty.

Not precisely. You can use special monk weapons (i.e., kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) instead of an unarmed strike. You *cannot* use just any weapon.
kenobi65
06-27-04, 01:02 AM Hmmm, I stand corrected.

I just downloaded the newest version of the D&D FAQ document, and, among the most recent additions to the FAQ, Skip Williams is now saying that a monk *can* add an off-hand attack to a Flurry of Blows attack. You add all the attack penalties from fighting with two weapons to the penalty (if any) from doing Flurry of Blows.

The example he gives:
- Say you have a 4th level monk with a +3 BAB and a +2 Str bonus.
- He also has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat
- Normally, he can make one melee attack at +5 (+3 BAB, +2 Str)
- He could use Flurry for 2 attacks at +3 / +3 (+3 BAB, +2 Str, -2 flurry penalty)
- Since an unarmed strike is a light weapon, he could add an off-hand unarmed attack with a -2 penalty to all attacks, so 3 attacks at +1 / +1 / +1
- The first two attacks are effectively with the monk's "primary" hand, and he gets to add his full +2 Str bonus to the damage. However, since the third one is with the "off" hand, he only gets half of his Str bonus (+1) to the damage for that attack.
- If the monk is using weapons, the weapon(s) he uses for the attacks with Flurry of Blows can't be used for the off-hand attack, and vice-versa. So, if the monk above had a sai in each hand, and used each of the sais for one of the Flurry attacks, his "off-hand" attack would have to be an unarmed strike.

I think this represents a reversal from what the previous interpretation has been, but I could be wrong.

Mike Mistele
Timlagor
06-27-04, 07:20 AM Wow I didn't actually expect to be right! ;)

Originally posted by kenobi65
Flurry of Blows would count as "some special reason," and there's nothing in the description of Flurry of Blows to indicate that it's exempt from this rule. [/B]

I think the point here is that you have to be taking a full round attack but that once you are doing so you can get all the extra attacks you like.

On the off-hand attack. If the monk has a Sai in each hand and uses them both in the flurry, are they allowed to use an unarmed as an off-hand attack? (that hand still has a weapon in it!)
kenobi65
06-27-04, 02:08 PM Originally posted by Timlagor
On the off-hand attack. If the monk has a Sai in each hand and uses them both in the flurry, are they allowed to use an unarmed as an off-hand attack? (that hand still has a weapon in it!)

You can still use an unarmed strike as the off-hand attack in this case, because a monk can attack with pretty much his whole body. So, in this case, he'd use a kick / head butt / whatever for that "off-hand" attack.
Southernskies
06-28-04, 03:42 AM I would suggest you read the Glossary at the back of your 3.5 PHB (pg311 specifically).
"off hand: A character's weaker or less dexterous hand (usually the left). An attack made with the off hand incurs a -4 penalty on the attack roll. In addition, only one-half of a characters Strength bonus may be added to the damage dealt with a weapon held in the off hand."
TWF feat offsets the attack roll penalty, but has its own modifiers.

When combined with the Monk "Flurry of Blows" ability, you need to pay attention to what you have in that off hand.
Your Flurry attacks can be with any Monk Weapon you hold or Unarmed Strike, BUT that extra attack from TWF must be with the weapon held in the off-hand (and does not have to be a monk weapon).

For example, an 8th level monk with TWF holds nothing (unarmed) in his primary hand and a Sai in his off-hand.

Unarmed Damage: 1d10 (Can be swapped with a monk weapon held in the primary hand)
Sai Damage: 1d4

Normal BAB: +6/+1 (1d10+Str/1d10+Str)
TWF AB: +4/+4/-1 (1d10+Str/1d4+0.5*Str/1d10+Str)
Flurry AB: +5/+5/+0 (1d10+Str/1d10+Str/1d10+Str)
Flurry + TWF AB: +3/+3/+3/-2 (1d10+Str/1d10+Str/1d4+0.5*Str/1d10+Str)

The best off-hand weapon for a monk is, not surprisingly, an empty hand, as they get 1d10+Str for the damage instead of a weaker attack.

If you're holding a Quarterstaff as your weapon, the off-hand attack must be 1d6+0.5*Str as your hand is occupied with a double weapon and cannot be used for an unarmed strike.
carusoscrux
06-29-04, 09:58 AM You need to show that offhand definition to Skip. That FAQ that was mentioned specifically states, by Skip, that a make can make an offhand attack with another appendage or body part. If he sees that definition...who knows?

I would rule with what Skip says, but like everything in this edition there is too much room for table argument.
carusoscrux
06-29-04, 10:01 AM Wait a second...I goofed. A monk can use monk weapons and unarmed strikes with flurry of blows and still make an offhand attack with only his offhand weapon.

You're right, his fist would probably be best. A quarterstaff could only be used as an off-hand attack if it wasn't included in the flurry of blows. So the monk could make his two attacks by kicking you in the groin and face, and then offhand attack you by sweeping with the quarterstaff at your knees. Woohoo!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jeryl 05-05-04, 01:16 AM	Can you use the two weapon fighting feat unarmed to fight with both hands (and get an extra attack) ? Can you use a flury of blows with a monk weapon in each hand to get an extra attack ?
lutherreed 05-05-04, 08:29 AM	Two-Weapon Fighting Benefits: When wielding a double weapon or two weapons (not including natural weapons or unarmed strikes)... and flurry of blows is an extrordinary ability for Monks.
lutherreed 05-05-04, 09:01 AM	oops, I quoted the two-weapon defense feat :embarrass But Two-Weapon Fighting does say something similar.
Nidome 05-05-04, 11:57 AM	Originally posted by Jeryl Can you use the two weapon fighting feat unarmed to fight with both hands (and get an extra attack) ? Can you use a flury of blows with a monk weapon in each hand to get an extra attack ? "TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING [GENERAL] You can fight with a weapon in each hand. You can make one extra attack each round with the second weapon." An unarmed attack is a light weapon, so yes you can make an off-hand attack with it in addition to your regular attacks. "When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. " Flurry of Blows gives a monk an extra attack on a full attack. The number of weapons held by the monk does not affect this. Any given attack made as part of the flurry must meet the requirements of the quoted paragraph above. Also note: ".....a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full." So with a weapon in each hand you still have the unarmed strike option. Nick.
lutherreed 05-05-04, 07:31 PM	An unarmed attack is not a light weapon. unarmed attack: A melee attack made with no weapon in hand.
Jeryl 05-05-04, 10:51 PM	Ok for unarmed but: Two Weapon Fighting gives an extra attack when you fight with two weapons (with a -2 penalty) Flurry of blows gives a monk an extra attack (with a -2 penalty) with monk weapons. Could a Monk then make a flurry of blows with two monk weapons and get 3 attacks with a -4 penalty ? Where did you see The number of weapons held by the monk does not affect this. ?
Nidome 05-06-04, 06:38 AM	Originally posted by lutherreed An unarmed attack is not a light weapon. unarmed attack: A melee attack made with no weapon in hand. It is clearly stated in the rules: "Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon’s size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon. Light: A light weapon is easier to use in one’s off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and it can be used while grappling. A light weapon is used in one hand. Add the wielder’s Strength bonus (if any) to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or one-half the wielder’s Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder’s primary hand only. An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his or her Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls. Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon." Please note the section that is underlined. Nick.
kenobi65 05-06-04, 11:06 AM	Originally posted by Jeryl Could a Monk then make a flurry of blows with two monk weapons and get 3 attacks with a -4 penalty ? No, because Flurry of Blows is a full-round action, as is attacking with "Two Weapons." In other words, you can do one or the other, but not both.
Nidome 05-06-04, 11:24 AM	Originally posted by Jeryl Ok for unarmed but: Two Weapon Fighting gives an extra attack when you fight with two weapons (with a -2 penalty) Flurry of blows gives a monk an extra attack (with a -2 penalty) with monk weapons. Could a Monk then make a flurry of blows with two monk weapons and get 3 attacks with a -4 penalty ? I'm afraid not. There are two main reasons for this..... The first is that they are both full round actions. The second is that a Monk doesn't have an off-hand when making a flurry attack, so therefore cannot make an off-hand attack. Where did you see quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------ The number of weapons held by the monk does not affect this. ------------------------------------------------------------------ ? From my previous rules quote: ".....She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired." There is no limitation given on how many monk weapons you may use during a flurry. I suppose technically if you have quick draw you could use a different monk weapon for each attack by dropping a weapon after each attack and quick drawing a new one. In fact you could hold a non monk weapon in your hand(s) and still flurry provided you didn't use that weapon to attack with during the flurry. Nick.
Timlagor 06-26-04, 10:26 AM	Nowhere in the text for Flurry of blows does it say either - that it is a full round action - that you have no off hand while doing so. What it says is that you can take an extra attack at the full attack bonus with any weapon (including unarmed even if holding weapons) and the example makes it clear that you can use both ends of a double weapon (and by extension presumably a different off-hand weapon) as a flurry attack without taking an extra penalty. This could be interpreted as implying that you are already attaking with 2 weapons but it does not say so. It is certainly not celar how this would interact with Improved Two Weapon Fighting -i suspect the simple answer is that Flurry is essentially an alternative to the Two Weapon fighting feats. Fighting with two weapons says it gives you an extra attack with the relevant penalty (depending on what you are wielding and feats). Elsewhere (combat section of PHB) it says that you must be taking a full round attack action to take more than one attack in a round. None of that says that you can't stack a Flurry and 2 weapon fighting. OTOH there might well be a ruling somewhere that does say you can't and it would make sense -I just can't find it in the rules.
kenobi65 06-27-04, 12:43 AM	Originally posted by Timlagor Nowhere in the text for Flurry of blows does it say either - that it is a full round action The line in the Combat section you refer to pretty much lays it out. "Full Attack "If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon (see Two-Weapon Fighting under Special Attacks, page 160), or for some special reason (such as a feat or a magic item), you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks." Flurry of Blows would count as "some special reason," and there's nothing in the description of Flurry of Blows to indicate that it's exempt from this rule.
kenobi65 06-27-04, 12:46 AM	Originally posted by Timlagor What it says is that you can take an extra attack at the full attack bonus with any weapon (including unarmed even if holding weapons) and the example makes it clear that you can use both ends of a double weapon (and by extension presumably a different off-hand weapon) as a flurry attack without taking an extra penalty. Not precisely. You can use special monk weapons (i.e., kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) instead of an unarmed strike. You cannot use just any weapon.
kenobi65 06-27-04, 01:02 AM	Hmmm, I stand corrected. I just downloaded the newest version of the D&D FAQ document, and, among the most recent additions to the FAQ, Skip Williams is now saying that a monk can add an off-hand attack to a Flurry of Blows attack. You add all the attack penalties from fighting with two weapons to the penalty (if any) from doing Flurry of Blows. The example he gives: - Say you have a 4th level monk with a +3 BAB and a +2 Str bonus. - He also has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat - Normally, he can make one melee attack at +5 (+3 BAB, +2 Str) - He could use Flurry for 2 attacks at +3 / +3 (+3 BAB, +2 Str, -2 flurry penalty) - Since an unarmed strike is a light weapon, he could add an off-hand unarmed attack with a -2 penalty to all attacks, so 3 attacks at +1 / +1 / +1 - The first two attacks are effectively with the monk's "primary" hand, and he gets to add his full +2 Str bonus to the damage. However, since the third one is with the "off" hand, he only gets half of his Str bonus (+1) to the damage for that attack. - If the monk is using weapons, the weapon(s) he uses for the attacks with Flurry of Blows can't be used for the off-hand attack, and vice-versa. So, if the monk above had a sai in each hand, and used each of the sais for one of the Flurry attacks, his "off-hand" attack would have to be an unarmed strike. I think this represents a reversal from what the previous interpretation has been, but I could be wrong. Mike Mistele
Timlagor 06-27-04, 07:20 AM	Wow I didn't actually expect to be right! ;) Originally posted by kenobi65 Flurry of Blows would count as "some special reason," and there's nothing in the description of Flurry of Blows to indicate that it's exempt from this rule. [/B] I think the point here is that you have to be taking a full round attack but that once you are doing so you can get all the extra attacks you like. On the off-hand attack. If the monk has a Sai in each hand and uses them both in the flurry, are they allowed to use an unarmed as an off-hand attack? (that hand still has a weapon in it!)
kenobi65 06-27-04, 02:08 PM	Originally posted by Timlagor On the off-hand attack. If the monk has a Sai in each hand and uses them both in the flurry, are they allowed to use an unarmed as an off-hand attack? (that hand still has a weapon in it!) You can still use an unarmed strike as the off-hand attack in this case, because a monk can attack with pretty much his whole body. So, in this case, he'd use a kick / head butt / whatever for that "off-hand" attack.
Southernskies 06-28-04, 03:42 AM	I would suggest you read the Glossary at the back of your 3.5 PHB (pg311 specifically). "off hand: A character's weaker or less dexterous hand (usually the left). An attack made with the off hand incurs a -4 penalty on the attack roll. In addition, only one-half of a characters Strength bonus may be added to the damage dealt with a weapon held in the off hand." TWF feat offsets the attack roll penalty, but has its own modifiers. When combined with the Monk "Flurry of Blows" ability, you need to pay attention to what you have in that off hand. Your Flurry attacks can be with any Monk Weapon you hold or Unarmed Strike, BUT that extra attack from TWF must be with the weapon held in the off-hand (and does not have to be a monk weapon). For example, an 8th level monk with TWF holds nothing (unarmed) in his primary hand and a Sai in his off-hand. Unarmed Damage: 1d10 (Can be swapped with a monk weapon held in the primary hand) Sai Damage: 1d4 Normal BAB: +6/+1 (1d10+Str/1d10+Str) TWF AB: +4/+4/-1 (1d10+Str/1d4+0.5Str/1d10+Str) Flurry AB: +5/+5/+0 (1d10+Str/1d10+Str/1d10+Str) Flurry + TWF AB: +3/+3/+3/-2 (1d10+Str/1d10+Str/1d4+0.5Str/1d10+Str) The best off-hand weapon for a monk is, not surprisingly, an empty hand, as they get 1d10+Str for the damage instead of a weaker attack. If you're holding a Quarterstaff as your weapon, the off-hand attack must be 1d6+0.5*Str as your hand is occupied with a double weapon and cannot be used for an unarmed strike.
carusoscrux 06-29-04, 09:58 AM	You need to show that offhand definition to Skip. That FAQ that was mentioned specifically states, by Skip, that a make can make an offhand attack with another appendage or body part. If he sees that definition...who knows? I would rule with what Skip says, but like everything in this edition there is too much room for table argument.
carusoscrux 06-29-04, 10:01 AM	Wait a second...I goofed. A monk can use monk weapons and unarmed strikes with flurry of blows and still make an offhand attack with only his offhand weapon. You're right, his fist would probably be best. A quarterstaff could only be used as an off-hand attack if it wasn't included in the flurry of blows. So the monk could make his two attacks by kicking you in the groin and face, and then offhand attack you by sweeping with the quarterstaff at your knees. Woohoo!